I told you Paul over and over again, that I selectively quoted that statement for a reason. I was challenging the claim in general as it applied to allied forces. I never said Australian soldiers did X, because I knew very well I was talking about My Lai in advance...duh. However I'm not so stupid as to claim they did *not* under any circumstances either. A tree still falls in the forest if no one is there to hear it. You act like it doesn't.

"You haven’t even provided evidence that “A LOT” of Americans were involved in this type of behaviour."

A lot is an unspecified number. A lot to me includes all those cases that weren't reported and there were many. Don't forget the indiscriminate bombing of Laos and Vietnam, plus the chemicals sprayed all over their fields, wilderness and river systems.

>"On the evidence you have provided to us, all you can say with ANY justification is that ONE company of AMERICAN soldiers committed a massacre in a Vietnamese village."

There were many similar incidents in other conflicts and battles. Go read wikipedia, with it's citations (i said something like this earlier...ffs).

>"Nothing about Australians except for an allegation of execution of wounded prisoners."

You are questioning the word of an Allied New Zealand soldier (or whoever he is) and those of other Australian veterans he claims were "quite open" about these executions. You are turning on a New Zealand veteran to defend the Australian soldier, by suggesting he is a liar.

PaulL.>"Talk about hearsay. Conviction by association seems to be a common method of all supporters of the left."

And what of your attack on this New Zealand Ally and Veteran? Is that typical of partisans like you?

I never claimed Australian soldiers did anything, and never claimed any forces "all" did anything. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THAT.

Bronwyn makes a great point here as well you should read it.

PaulL.>"It’s so hypocritical ....yet you are happy to do the same thing to 50,000 Australians you have never even met."

See prior capitalisation. That's an asinine comparison that incidentally weakens your prior statement.

>"Finally the fact that there never was any evidence of Australian troops killing babies didn’t stop peace activists from labelling them as such."

Again, you provide no citations. You never proved who these activists were. You never interviewed them to see why they were speaking. I gave a reasonable explanation for their words, which you have read.

>"It was a despicable act and it is one reason why many of those who are against the war today are still prepared to support our troops."

Then you are despicable every time you attribute something to the "peace movement" or "supporters of the left". Also, you are writing a blank check for the troops.

I like that we have superior rules of engagement (to the USA). It makes me proud and able to support them at some level. However, it sickens me that this may be partly only for publicity reasons demonstrated by these actions:
-They censor media stories and actively suppress events/crimes with extreme enthusiasm and justification.
-They believe all the propaganda about the wars and their 'nobility' (if that improves their morale, so be it, but i dislike and can't respect people who lie to themselves and wilfully ignore facts)
- Their treatment by the media and PM can be ridiculous. it's almost always invariably propaganda and martyring the soldiers rather than solemn, unbiased recognition can turn my stomach.

Bronwyn,

I have had an argument with a lot more than one or two lefties.

If you don’t have any evidence of baby killing then accusing a large group of people of doing it is in very poor taste. Indeed it is slander.

There is not anywhere near enough evidence to suggest that “ a lot” of the Australian and New Zealand soldiers committed war crimes. In fact very, very few of the 50,000 Australians who served did commit war crimes.

In any case I have never claimed that our soldiers where more noble than any other nations soldiers. I have merely pointed out that in general they are fully deserving of the respect that we offer them on ANZAC day.

Steel,

This is what I said “ … there are literally dozens of accounts of Aussie soldiers coming back from Vietnam and being abused in the most appalling manner. It is undoubted that the so called “peace activists” blamed soldiers for the war and reacted accordingly. The favorite quote of the easily led and the unthinking was that the soldiers were “baby killers”

In your next post this is your first line. “ A lot of them were baby killers. It was an apt description.”

Go back and have a look if you want.

So enough with the pretense. No one even mentioned “allied soldiers” for a couple of posts. In fact your second reply specifically referred to American actions because you knew that there was no evidence of Australian wrongdoing in that respect. So give us a rest and just apologise. You absolutely did suggest that Aussie soldiers were “baby killers”. SO YOU CAN CAPITALISE AS MUCH AS YOU WANT. IT IS THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE.

Australians mostly fought in Phuoc Tuy province. They were the only foreign forces responsible for the province from 1966 to 1971. The Australians approached the war in Vietnam in a manner very different to that of our allies. So to even imply that “what our allies did, we must have done” is so ignorant that it laughable.

That context was a miscommunication. You know, I did not read the rest of the paragraph...........LOL....................I specifically quoted a PART of your statement. And when I did so I had in mind Allied forces, specifically My Lai, which I KNEW were concerning Americans (is it logical that I would try to pass off the My lai massacre as Australian, when it's so obviously not?). I also knew that Australian protesters here probably had that event or a similar report in mind, which is why when you later raised the point about Australians i gave an explanation which i thought fitted the situation.

Now *if* it was black and white, I would have specifically said, "Actually a lot of Australian soldiers were..."or I would have quoted the whole paragraph"

Steel,

You’re still doing it.

You say “when I did so I had in mind Allied forces, specifically My Lai, which I KNEW were concerning Americans “

Just drop the Allied part. It isn’t justified. So apologise, you made a big mistake either way.

I knew the whole way along you were referring to May Lai as it was the most famous massacre of the war. There were of course much worse attacks by the Viet Cong in Hue and other places but they never received the same attention.

As for the protesters I don’t care if you give an explanation. That doesn’t make it right. They were, like you, parlously misinformed of the actual situation of Australian troops on the ground in Vietnam. So instead what they did was parrot insults they had heard from their American counterparts. Their behaviour in blaming the troops for the war was unforgiveable. There is no explanation that will make their behaviour acceptable. Just look at the damage they did. Shame on them. It took nearly 20 years before we could even welcome most of the poor bastards home.

The actions of vast majority of Australians soldiers in Vietnam were consistent with the protocols laid down in the Geneva conventions. To label them or accuse them of the actions of a few of their comrades is obscene. It is against natural justice to attribute the behaviour of a single person, or a small group; to the vastly larger whole.

I accept your point that not all protesters behaved in this manner. Certainly there were a lot who did.

“… the homecoming of Australian service personnel from Vietnam was … characterized by hostility and rejection. Returning veterans were frequently abused for their participation …” Journal of Traumatic Stress
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/112594437/PDFSTART

Hi there PAUL L...

You're so right apropos the treatment we received when we were repatriated home. Even most of my 'former' mates viewed me with some degree of suspicion or reservation. Nothing was said mind you, it was more what I felt. I soon became somewhat 'tongue tired'. I felt like I was not actually part of, or included in our conversation.

Funnily enough, none of my friends (male or female) were interested in what I did 'over there' either ? Notwithstanding however, there were major demonstrations against the war occurring almost daily !

Strangely too, I found it particularly difficult talking to the fairer sex, I simply didn't know what to say to them !

I soon found the company of my friends (with a couple of exceptions) lacked a certain something. I sought my own company (and still do even now) most of the time. I felt deficient in some way (I've no insight or clue as to what?).

I guess I'd better shutup. This is an 'opinion forum' not an abridged version of 'This is your Life'.

In any event, I'm a relatively banal individual. An altogether ordinary sort of fella, in the greater scheme of things accordingly, I'm not a very interesting topic anyway !