CJ.... your point about the usual symbolism being a cenotaph.

I don't really have any difficulty or disagreement with that. As I said..this was my first ever personal involvment in an Anzac day march/proceedings. I certainly don't extrapolate the symbolism of the one I attended to all, as I just didn't know.

My comments were related to the one I saw.

As I explained, the Soldiers with guns on either side of the Cross, has contradictory overtones. Yes, they are both about sacrificial deaths, but no, they are not the same type of death. Jesus died as follows:

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

Thats more than a bulls roar from the military reality of blazing guns ,thrusting bayonets,dropping bombs and mangled bodies.

I absolutely choked up, when I said to my mate there, "no greater love does a man have than to give his life for his friend" It has meaning for both Christ's death and those of our soldiers.

P.S. come back 2 my "blog" :) and see if you can add anything to the "knowledge" bit k? ask around ur friends, its a secular thing (my last post there)

WAIT!.!.!.! ... "Pericles agreed with me?" ...Miracles are still with us :)

Steel,

This is a discussion about ANZAC day, and I was clearly referring to Australian soldiers. Yet I see you have not come up with any evidence of Aussie involvement in the deliberate killing of children. You have even heard from a veteran who was there.

All you could come up with is two accounts of the same massacre at My Lai committed by one small unit of the Americal division. You know so little about the subject that you didn’t even know you were referring to the same massacre.

You have defamed the 50,000 Australians who served in Vietnam. You should now apologise. It’s absolutely no different to me saying that the members of your family are all child molesters.

You say “Unfortunately many soldiers who had no part in such crimes necessarily must have felt victimised ”

They were victimized by the easily led, so called “peace activists” who mimicked the cries of their American counterparts. That they never had any evidence of any wrongdoing by Australian soldiers is without question. Yet they persisted in these outrageous tactics of guilt by association.

Further, Lieutenant Calley (US Army Americal division) and his company were punished for their abhorrent actions. Many of them were sent to jail.

Let me just give you an idea of the enemy they were fighting.

The Viet Cong were responsible for, among other things,

The massacre at Dak Son where a village of 2000 Montagnard tribesman was attacked by 600 Vietcong with 60 flamethrowers. All told, 252 of the unarmed Montagnards had been murdered and another 100 kidnapped; 500 were missing, either dead or fled into the hills. Nearly 50 were wounded, 33 with third-degree burns over up to 20% of their bodies. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,837586-2,00.html

The massacre in Hue where 3000 civillians were tortured and murdered over a period of a couple of weeks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Hue

The assassination of 33, 052 village officials and civilians during the war.
http://www.montagnard-foundation.org/opinion.html

Maybe you should read about the misreporting of those western journalists who purported to believe in peace but who actually wanted a communist win in Vietnam
http://www.aim.org/publications/aim_report/1977/08b.html

Comparing JC's death with that of a soldier is false, DB. A large proportion of the armed forces - ours and other's - simply like shooting guns at people.

I have little time to spare for OLO at the moment, but hey!; sometimes one just has to make the time.
SO.......

Mac-

Interesting analogy, strawman/mac. OK. by me;-it fits..
I have little doubt that YOU would know people who think that Australian troups were ' cowards', I don't mix with such people. There are hero's AND cowards in every group. I have no time for people who condemn entire groups....
...curious to know why you felt the need to turn my question right around though? Is that a way to avoid answering my question?

You took this thread subject and used it to spew your anti-Brit bias. At least be honest about that.
________________________________________

Bron-

I dare say we will agree on many things;-we will disagree on others. It matters little to me whether I'm endorsed or vilified. It would not influence my opinion in the next post that I make. You and I disagree in our view on this subject., and IF you address me, particularly in a negative manner;-I will respond;-caps or not. (On that topic I will give an impacted wisdom tooth for an italics facility--PLEASE GY).
Given the way we both tend to think, we will agree elsewhere!
___________________________________________

Passy-

I'm doing this post as a job lot, so I am responding to you here.
I have understood from the getgo what the argument was against ANZAC day, I'm not a fool.
I don't care.
I could flesh that out, but I don't have the time or inclination. OLO posters at times (in MY view),- will use their striking intellect to analyze and rationalize black into white!

Old men/women march with pride for their fallen comrades, and their own role in a hugely traumatic period of their lives.

That's it for me. That's it.

PS: Pass,- I won't get into any in-depth discussion about my Socialist beliefs;- the basis of Socialism et al.

I am. I believe. That also is it.

Hi again - * STEEL *,

I see you've cited a number of instances allegedly involving US troops unlawfully killing innocents and particularly babies.

I wasn't aware that you were referring to the alleged abuses and actions of American soldiers in SV.

I have no information that either supports or rebuts your assertion.

STEEL, I can only state herein that:

(i) To my knowledge NO AUSTRALIAN soldier EVER engaged in conduct of a kind, that could only be described as evil and a war crime; and

(ii) War is a filthy and disgusting business ! Events that you've described and alleged in this 'post', may have occured, I don't know. Dreadful things happened in Vietnam.

Post an ambush, very young NVA 'kids' (15/16 years of age) butchered by 'claymores' (ours), and when we searched their bodies for 'product', often revealed small photos and treasured items and letters etc. ostensibly from their NOK. No wonder Aussie Vets returned home with 'f....d' minds and damaged personalities.

I guess we all had blood on our hands. It's no wonder we were often described as 'headshots' !

Steel wrote,

"Further, Lieutenant Calley (US Army Americal division) and his company were punished for their abhorrent actions. Many of them were sent to jail."

Calley was the only one who served any time in jail for the massacre. Apparently the investigation stopped at Calley and did not go higher up. He was released without serving his full sentence. The army tried to cover up the entire incident, but a helicopter pilot blew the whistle and exposed the crime. A New York Times reporter wrote a story on it. We don't know how many atrocities were successfully covered up.

My Lai was a war crime. If a similar incident had been carried out by the Germans in WW2 the penalty at the Nuremberg trials would have been much greater,

My cousin was a US Air Force major in Vietnam and planned to stay in the military. He quit in disgust at the US actions. The US and Australia were fighting people who didn't want them in their country.