Antiseptic,

By my reasoned assessment, you are an antisemite of the worst kind.

Israel is a committed democracy, quite unlike others, with assurred haven and protection of minorities otherwise stateless and exterminated elsewhere.

My experience - minor compared with others - did not make me prejudiced. But it did make me aware that there is no guaranteed security for minor groups, or even class citizens, even in a democracry. Germany the most intellectually progressive and civilized country in Europe, and a democracy, threw up Hitler. Hitler murdered many Germans, and became a millionaire on sales of Mein Kampf.

When I was at boarding college, I often visited La Perouse during my holidays. An indigenous group lived there and I enjoyed their company greatly - they were intelligent, gentle, kind, and good-humoured.

Recently , I visited a town of 300 people - all white. Previously, the area had been centre of trade for various indigenous groups. In living memory of the older whites, a resident group of over 2,000 indigenous people had lived in the area with sophisticated customary law - young men weren’t permitted to eat certain foods, reserved for small children and the elderly. Only a handful of these indigenous people remain - and not in the town - but shunted off elswehere.

In north-west Australia indigenous peoples had a novel system of water-channel farming; in Victoria, productive eel farming.

What happened to them ...

Australia threw up in horrendous numbers of hideous hansonites. G-d knows where we would be if she had been an orator and charismatic.

Among the boat-people, one person, detained for over 5 years had been an outspoken writer against the murderous regime from which he escaped. Only by constant lobbying by those who knew, saw him released. That was just one individual ...

If you read OLO posters you would see that “isms” are quite alive in Australia; just needing the right person ...

Living in Malaya during the terrorist period, I know the precise definition of terrorism. Hamas are not militants, they are terrorists. The media ignore this.

cont ...

With a step-father in the top brass, I understand legitimate tactics well.

I’ll put fact to your “accusations against Israel”, which apparently deviod of evaluation, you slavishly lap up from a stridently anti-Israel media

“Invading other countries” - Called self defence; pre-emptive strikes (both legitimate)

“dispatching assassins in helicopters” - Actualy called “targetted killings”. The British made this an art form , the US have done it, even the Dutch military, in the last two years, have been given legal right to do this. The time the Israeli’s committed a “targetted killing” - it was debated within Israel’s Supreme Court first.

“locking up dissenters without trial” - Israel has freedom of speech - they do not gaol dissenters.

Where is the “Doctrine of Proportionate Response” recorded as an article of war?

“Dis/proportional response” is not in any military lexicon of which I am aware. I know it appeared in the TV series “West Wing"; the media picked up and ran with it ALWAYS when condemning Israel.

“Proportionate response” has been the cause millions of deaths and attrocities in Rwanda, Sierra Leonne, the Congo and Darfur. Any intervention - a “disproportionate” response.

In Malaya the Brits hit back as to render the enemy impotent/dead - no discussion of how many terrorists, how much ordnance, etc. No tit for tat!. They dropped bombs on terrorist nests with less than a handful of terrorists.

Both the uneven anti-Israel voting record by the United Nations Human Rights Commission ... (AND despite the admonition of three successive United Nations Secretaries- General); and uneven anti-Israel votes from United Nations General Assembly; resort to the term “disproportionate response” in condemning Israel.

Ignore that UNHRC and UNGA include “some of the most oppressive and failed nation-states in the world.”

Read International Law Journals regarding “Use of Force and Self-Defence”

Jus ad Bellum
Jus in Bello
Combat Manuals: The SAS and Elite Forces (Australia)
“International Law and the Use of Force by States”
“International Law and the Use of Force”
“Harvard International Law Journal”
“War, Aggression and Self-Defence”
“Self-Defense against the Use of Force in International Law”

Danielle,

Your family have seen a very nasty side of human nature and power.

I am interested in your view of the wikipedia entry on " turn the other cheek ".

Would this work in Israel ?

Disproportionate Response worked very well in Tasmania and on Mainland Australia against Aboriginal People.

I think the majority of the word believes ,rightly or wrongly, that "Something has to give" .

Antiseptic

You are so blind, but you share this with others. You see only the Palestinian side and hear only their arguments. Your criticisms of Israel are just so wrong. The population of Israel, descendants of Middle Eastern Jewish refugees, Druze, Samaritans, Baha'i refugees from Darfur all deserve some respect, these are all refugees from the Middle East sheltering in Israel.

But you refuse to consider this, prepared to believe only the Palestinian propaganda, much loved by the new left, rather than learn anything about Israel's problems. Remember that Muslims have also been killed by the hundreds of Hamas and Hezbollah rockets. Remember too the Bali bombing, the fanatics responsible for this atrocity are tarred with the same brush as the opponents of Israel.

Israel and all its inhabitants, Jewish, Christian, Baha'i, moderate Muslims alike all face a mad group dedicated to their destruction, and they know what they face if Israel goes under. Get to know some of these people, ask them.

Danielle, proportionality in response is a measure of how well a State manages its power. The old saying is "you don't use a sledgehammer to crack a nut". Israel would use a demolition ball to crack a sesame seed and then try to claim that the sesame seed attacked it or that it was really a poppy seed in disguise. Either way, it deserved to be crushed, naturally...

As I keep having to tell you, this thread is about the poor behaviour of the Israeli State, not Holland or Britain or Australia, both of which countries are not famous for the assassination of people they don't like or for "preemptive strikes "(invasion is the normal term), or for systematically terrorising a populace because there happen to be some people opposed to the State within that populace. They may have other faults, which you could discuss in a thread about them, if that moves you.

I'll tell you what, you continue to believe the Israel is a perfect shining light of democracy and fair play that can do no wrong if that's what makes you happy. Make sure you say hello to the fairies while you're at the bottom of the garden, won't you?

Logic, do try to get a tune up for your propaganda machine. It seems to be producing an output with no input.

Antiseptic

Your response revealed your patent ignorance of terminology - and indeed Britain’s history of “targetted killings”. But I have supplied a small reference for reading ...

” ... poor behaviour of Israel ...”

Israel, like other countries has “rules of engagement” which are stictly enforced.
Read just a couple of the references I provided and then demonstrate any point where Israel differs from International law in regards Jus Bellum. Also, under International law of war, Israel has full right to defend itself.

You would adopt “tit for tat”? Unfortunately, war and conflict is much more serious and complicted than that. Obviously you have no knowledge about engagement, nor conduct of war.

Just an example: An order: “take a ridge and hold it” . Whatever fire-power and manpower, necesssary, is used to achieve this objective - nothing more, nothing less (hopefully). Manpower and ordnance are costly on a number of levels and never wasted. There is accountability of objective achieved, deaths/casualties and ordnance used. A “bad call” - and conflict can continue much longer, with greater casualties on both sides, and expensive loss in ordnance. Any idea of the costs of the latter?

Where do you get your information about Israel? From the yellow press with its “proportionate/disporportionate response” - is it ... was it ... will it be ...? And their complete lack knowledge about conflict - let alone international codes of war.

IMPORTANTLY ...

We are not even discussing conventional conflict and war ...

The media refer to Hamas as militants, they are not, they are terrorists. Hamas terrorists murder and inflict unbelieveable horrors on their own people. They do not conduct their activities under any code.

Hamas imbed themselves in civilian populations - use the population as shields.
On occasion, they televised from where they were sending rockets. Seeing this, the Israeli’s immediately aborted defensive action.

Israel doesn’t attack Palestinian schools or hospitals. Hamas shell Israeli schools and hospitals. At what point do you find Hamas’ action ethical or justifiable? Based on your views, you apparently do so.

cont ....