This is a bit blunt.
But if Israel is so important to all thes hawks, then why dont they go and live there and put their lives where there mouths are.

Antony

This is a great article. What courage you have to challenge Zionism.

Remarkable. I enjoyed your book too.

Keep the debate going. I find it interesting too that Jewish voices here are far less critical than in Israel itself of the actions of the Israeli state. I wonder why. Your views help explain why.

What I find bizarre, and both Uri Avnery and Gideon Levy have stated it baldly, is how Israel dared to chastise the Chinese over Tibet when their occupation of Palestine has been longer and more brutally illegal than the Chinese in Tibet.

I think those here have to explain to us all why they believe the Palestinians should pay for the war crimes of the west. They need to confront the fact that Australia and the west were not welcoming during the years that jews lived in peace in small numbers in Palestine. They need to confront the fact that the murdering scumbags who put their families into gas chambers looked just like me and not like my Palestinian friends.

The murders had names like Pfeiffer, Schultz, Goebbels, Hitler and others, not names like Mohammed and Ali, Akram or Soliman and they were almost all blue eyed blonds like me.

I for one don't think any Palestinian on earth deserves what Israel is doing to them because the cowards in the west stood by while Hitler enacted policies of extermination that they were well aware of.

Let us not forget that they loved Hitler while he was disposing of the communists and unionists and said nothing when he started on the romanies, the disabled, the homosexuals and then the jews.

Come to think of it the jews never mention that of the 110 million killed in wars last century they made up only 5% of the deaths, they never mention the others at all.

Then they hijack the word anti-semitic, forgetting that semites are all arabs and assyrians.

Good on you Ant.

Given there is still no resolution over the sovereignty of the West Bank and Gaza and given that Israel long ago left Gaza these claims of "illegal," "colonialism" are not only infantile, they care contradicted by the facts. There is still no state called "Palestine" even after 60 years when the world has undergone the most momentest and revolutionary changes.

We have shamefully devoted far too much attention to this lower order issue. But the whole world has finally woken up over the past few years to just what extraordinary pressure and attack the Israelis have been for decades.

And Marilyn Sheperd, perhaps if the Palestinians acted more like Tibetans there would be more sympathy for them

Given how much Marilyn Sheperd and Antony Loewenstein (and their ilk) hate Australians, white people, Christians, and Jews so much, perhaps they should migrate to "Palestine" and in a spasm of solidarity with their subalterns-most-worthy simply "Strap On" and stop lecturing the rest of us.

Thank you John Greenfield for so eloquently proving Antony Loewenstein's point. Somehow you have translated concern over lack of debate into "hating Australians, white people, Christians and Jews". Enough said.

Mind you, Marilyn Shepherd's comments aren't any better. Her claim that "the jews" never mention other deaths in WWII is nothing more than prejudiced claptrap. Can I suggest Marilyn that you try reading some 20th century historians, many of which are Jews, to put you right on that score.

While you're at it, you might also do some research on Middle Eastern history in the 1940s and 50s. You'll discover that hundreds of thousands of Jews were expelled from Arab countries, from the homes they'd lived in for centuries and forced to move to Israel. The Arab governments then reneged on their agreements to resettle equivalent numbers of Palestinian refugees, preferring to leave them in squalid camps where they would prove an embarrassment to Israel. Funny how after 50 years they're still there. You'd think if these countries really cared about the Palestinians, they'd have made some effort to improve their living conditions while within their own borders. Instead they just treat them like pawns.

Cazza

Actually nothing I have said "proves" his "points" which are overwhelmingly misrepresentations and/or based on ignorance of history and law and coloured by an obssessive and pathological enmity towards Jews, Christians, and Australia.

In response to John Greenfield,
Charges of ‘illegal colonialism’ are neither infantile nor in contradiction of the facts.
This charge is one I hear often in this debate, namely that there never was and isn’t a place called Palestine or a people called Palestinians. It reminds me of the self-seeking claim that the land occupied by Israel was a ‘land without a people’. Terra Nullius was false in Australia, and was certainly false in the Holy Land.
Palestine exists. It was a region of the Ottoman Empire, and a distinct mandatory under the League of Nations. It was supposed to be partitioned to make way for two states under UN Resolution 181, a situation the Zionists accepted at the time.
The areas that everyone calls the Occupied Territories are so-called because they lie outside Israel’s recognised borders and were seized in war. According to international law no country may make war for territorial gain. Any land occupied even in a defensive or just war must be handed back. A refusal to do so makes their continued occupation illegal. Also, the occupying power is explicitly disbarred from settling this territory. In actively promoting Jewish settlement Israel is open to the charge of colonialism.
Of course it is hard to define exactly to whom the occupied lands should be returned, but this is no excuse. Recognising the need to do so involves repudiating settlement and agreeing on a fixed border for the new state. Even if the security and governance issues are yet to be resolved, actually doing this would ensure Israel’s position in law and in the eyes of the international community. Refusing to do so makes any other step to peace meaningless.

Perhaps we may look at Israel through an Australian lens. Most Jewish, Christian and Muslim children in Israel go to schools of their own faith and develop suspicions of the 'other'. Not only that but 'secular' Jews go to different schools from the more religious Jews.

In Australia religious schools get government subsidies. The percentage of children in private schools on a religious basis is increasing. Muslims, Jews and Christians in general go to separate schools. As Australia becomes more multicultural it will also become more fragmented.

The Labor government continues to support the School Chaplaincy Program which is a product of the Howard government.

Duncan Brown, former CEO of Scripture Union Queensland which has supplied many of the school chaplains states:

"School Chaplaincy is a feeder ministry - it is a way of directly targeting potential Christians and bringing them to God and into the church environment. If we don't spend time investing in this ministry now, our churches will suffer the consequences of an ageing population base unable to support its initiatives."

The School Chaplaincy Program has no place in a pluralistic democratic society. I am extremely disappointed in the Labor government for continuing a Howard initiative of this kind. Government subsidising of a missionary effort to a captive population of school children should be stopped.

At least in Israel children of one faith are not subjected to the missionising of another faith in their school system.

A school system where children of different faiths come together without being inculcated with sectarian separatism and all get a good education is desirable in both Israel and Australia. It exists for most children in neither country.

Marilyn Shepherd wrote:

"Come to think of it the jews never mention that of the 110 million killed in wars last century they made up only 5% of the deaths, they never mention the others at all.

Then they hijack the word anti-semitic, forgetting that semites are all arabs and assyrians."

Both statements are false. Jews have had a tremendous concern about genocide in general. Raphael Lemkin (1900-1959) is a Jew who invented the word, genocide, in 1943. Prevent Genocide International is one organisation inspired by Lemkin. It is opposed to genocide in general. One example in Australia of Jews and others working together to expose and oppose genocide is the Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies at Macquarie University.Under the egis of that institution Hovannisian, an Armenian scholar, has compared Holocaust denial with the denial by the Turkish government of the Armenian genocide.

The word, antisemitism, was invented by Wilhelm Marr in 1879 when he formed the Antisemitic League. Marr meant Jews and no other group.

What is fuss.
The world knew of the Hitler programme and its implementation.
Few efforts were made.
When the Zionists decided they should have a home land, the Brits and world conscience said yes. Zionists chose the old Jewish State.
All of it.
Brits shook their heads and walked away.
America agreed. The State of Israel was born. Small limited excusing the wish for more.
An uninhabited land.
The squatters were removed the boundaries extended.
The first UN resolution of the Security council was given and ignored.
The Zionists claimed to be the injured party.
Noble things were said.
Jews from some parts of the Arab world were pressured into Israel.
Anti Semitism raged it was said.
Palestinians forming organisations of opposition fought and were labelled terrorist.
Hamas was courted as antidote to upset Palestinians, terrorist also.
Apartheid was practiced elections denied.
Nazi practice, not forgotten, became the norm.
The world did little Israel being armed and important in the foreign policies of nations well us!
Then America seeking an American century decided Saddam was a good target. No arms after the gulf war, other that is than formulated ones, of much hype.
Aggression on a scale at least equalling Israel’s was supported. Torture and theft were practiced.
The world did little to correct.
America like Israel in its Middle East world was dominantly armed.

So interesting topic on which to display concern but again other things are of importance.
The realisation that market economy does not give growth rates as wanted that financial controls have been gutted, bust following boom continues as before only this time with larger potential damage to the larger number of humans rendered vulnerable in the name of the free market economy. Greenhouse is a problem and we run out of oil with current substitute threatening food supplies though offering profit.

So lets get real. Our livelihood and comfort seems at stake and you want to do something about aggressive wars or excess nationalism with special pleading?
Making what? A nice little world in which oft spouted beliefs many incorporated in religion could become reality?

Lowenstein is drawing a very long bow in attempting to compare the Palestinians to the Tibetans. For starters Israel has been invaded 3 times in the last century by Palestines' allies. The murder and mayhem caused by the Palestinians has no comparison with the Tibetans and their non-violent leader the Dali lama.

Lets look at the differences.

The Dali Lama
1) recognises Chinas right to exist
2) Does not wish to secede from China
3) Preaches non violence and promotes negotiation
4) Wants the right to self determination under Chinese umbrella

Hamas
1) refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist
2) wants all of the land previously called Palestine – ie no jews in the middle east
3) Teaches hatred to its school children
4) Follows religious teachings which command the killing of jews
5) Actively and regularly commits acts of terror towards innocent civilians

China
1) China will not allow Tibet to form its own country
2) Is an autocractic state run by a cabal of 9
3) Doesn’t have a free media – lies to its people
4) No rule of law
5) Is in no danger from Tibetans or their allies in the region

Israel
1) has offered Palestine land in return for peace and has form with Egypt and Jordan
2) is democratic
3) has a free media and
4) rule of law
5) suffers significant security concerns from terrorists and their allies

Once again we find the same thing in this exercise, contributors tied up in causations, never contributing to the real reason that has made the majority of the Israeli Jews, after so much sympathy for them over their horrific experiences under Hitler’s Nazis.

Unfortunately, they are now virtually just US lap dogs, made so much worse by America and other strong nations shutting their eyes and ears to the Israeli build-up of the most up-to-date mllitaristic nuclear arsenal in today’s world.

It could be said that the above would be the present mindset of most of our WW2 veterans concerning our international problems, thoughts now mostly aimed on the Middle East, unfortunately over a tiny nation having so much strike power, closely allied with, of course, Pax Americana, the most powerful nation ever to exist in the history of this earth.

The sorrowful part about it, is that this great nation does not understand that even a semblance of humility proven by an admittance that Israel would have been so much more popular if the US had allowed a better devised UN to run the world show, as was the hope of Maynard Keynes before he died near the end of WW2, the wonderful Marshall Plan being the beginning of a better and fairer world .

With Gandhi showing the way by ending colonialisation in India - and so it went on despite the worrying rise of the Soviets.

And so it goes on with colonialism now Neo, its corporates nearly matching the old East India Company, making one wonder if we have again taken the wrong turn-off.

By the looks of it, reckon it might be left to us ordinary silly buggers after all - just sharin' the blame, as happens finally in sport, as we should have reckoned in the first place.

Cheers - BB, WA

John Greenfield,

Correct.

Is Antony Loewenstein a Jew? His surname reflects zip. If he is a Jew, one assumes he uses this to present some sort of "street cred". Very "yellow press". And what a way to get publicity. "I'm a Jew therefore 'I know' ... "I'm a Jew ... woe is me ..." The chattering masses lap this up ...

I don't question whether he is Jewish because of his comments about Israel - which on close reading are sophistry without substance - but because he shows none of the logic, knowledge and intelligence that I have come to associate with Jews.

He and Marilyn Shepherd read from the same page - which speaks volumes about his analytical skills and his selective use and abuse of facts. Never let facts get in the way of a good rant ...

Onya Marilyn....

You mentioned "semites are Arabs and Assyrians"

but what you didn't mention is that there has been an ongoing genocide against Christian Assyrians by Muslim Arabs and Kurds, such that today they almost don't exist.

The same anti Christian anti Jew mentality which has seen the virtual extinction of the Assyrians, is at work in Hamas and the various Palestinian groups.

Paul has spelt it out very clearly to you.. I've added....

You may consider this 'free therapy' :) we won't charge you for the healing.
Just don't go back and expose yourself to the same intellectual germs and visuses which we just now expunged from your mind.

To Cazza and david f:

A large proportion of the rabid anti-Israel nonsense that Marilyn so kindly offers us is either factually incorrect or totally unbalanced.

The sad thing is that she prefers to "post and run" - don't expect any response when you challenge her statements. She's long gone! I simply treat her failure to respond as an admission of defeat.

Paul L,

That was an excellent list of very relevant differences between the Israel-Palestine situation and the China-Tibet. Not all occupations are the same. Drawing simplistic analogies like Lowenstein does may be superficially appealing but it's hardly quality analysis.

One thing that would do the Palestinians the world of good would be to not allow terrorist organisations to set the course of the political agenda. Then let's talk about the evil Zionists and their lack of 'progressive thinking'. Isn't it obvious that the Palestinian majority support mass murder instead of attempting to find solution through diplomacy?. Why else would Hamas and Fatah be there?. 'Palestine' is a beaten 'nation'. The sooner they understand that Israel isn't going anywhere, and nothing will improve until they expel extremism and acknowledge that their territory is nothing more than a large camp of herded extremists. The only reason enclaves like Gaza still exist is because otherwise it would be an internal issue of security more so than with the added security of a border

I'm with you Marilyn,

We constantly hear bleating about the holocaust and how we must remember it to prevent it happening again. In every major city in the world millions are spent on memorials and museums to remember. But did this prevent Pol Pot or Rwanda? Where were the Jewish politicians screaming about preventing genocide? What about the Australian Jewish media - did they mount a campaign to condemn genocide? Just recently in Bosnia, did anyone hear anything about from Israel when the Bosnians were being ethnically cleansed? The answer is no, no and no. The brutal facts are that Jews only care about suffering when its Jewish.

We hear this constant bleating about poor Israel. Yet Israel gets more than 50% of US foreign aid for weaponry just to kill the Palesinians and hold on to illegal settlements. All the while millions of people around the world receive no US aid and die of starvation, and such basic diseases like dysentery. Where are the Jewish voices about suffering here? Once again, Jews seem to recognise suffering only when it's Jewish.

We hear constant bleating about poor Jews being discriminated against. Anti-Semitism has to be the most abused word in the history of the world. Jews are about the most educated, well-connected, politically active, and wealthiest minority in the world. There is no minority with more power or influence. Yet we constantly hear about their suffering. Give me a break. Thank God Jews never endured slavery like Africans or the living conditions of remote Aboriginals or we'd never hear the end of it.

There is enormous suffering in the world today. Millions endure hunger, poverty and early death from preventable diseases. I really couldn't care less about what happened 65 years ago. Israel is the most potent example of all that we don't learn from history. I think the real worry is that one day people might just wake up to this self obsessed minority and then there really might be anti-Semitism.

I see that the Israeli's have denied entry to Jimmy Carter for daring to talk to Hamas, another Israel invention so that Israel could deny Arafat. He went to Ramallah and even put a wreath on the grave of Arafat.

Judaism is just another cult for pete's sake yet we are expected to believe all sorts of drivel about them. In ancient times it could be understood if they were persecuted when they pronounced themselves the people of the god they made up for themselves. Today they would be laughed out of the room.

It's deranged. Last night I heard Background Briefing about the nutjob Haredi's. Violence, rioting, laziness, over breeding. State sponsored paupered violence by one small group of ultra-orthodox no better or different than the Taliban. Modest dress, no phones, no TV or radio, no work for dad, 8 or more kids for mum.

There are 14 million people in the world who claim they are jews, but what on earth is a jew.

And that nonsense about anti-semitism. A semite was originally a person who spoke a semitic language or a jew. The jews simply ignored everyone else covered by it to lambast everyone who didn't agree with them.

I am as tired of jews and their imaginary friends as I am of so-called christians, buddhists, muslims and all the others.

Dane wrote:

"We constantly hear bleating about the holocaust and how we must remember it to prevent it happening again. In every major city in the world millions are spent on memorials and museums to remember. But did this prevent Pol Pot or Rwanda? Where were the Jewish politicians screaming about preventing genocide? What about the Australian Jewish media - did they mount a campaign to condemn genocide? Just recently in Bosnia, did anyone hear anything about from Israel when the Bosnians were being ethnically cleansed? The answer is no, no and no. The brutal facts are that Jews only care about suffering when its Jewish."

The brutal fact is that the above statement is a lie. Israel has taken in Muslim refugees from Bosnia. Jews have been very active in seeking decent treatment for Aborigines and have been in the forefront of protesting the detention of boat people by the Howard government. Part of the purpose of remembrance is to see that it doesn't happen to others.

Psst..David that might be the case for the few in Australia but in Israel they lock up refugees and even deport them to Darfur while the diaspora in the US lobby for the rights of the Darfurians.

And in fact the Palestinians are the only refugees in the world denied their rights of return. By the jews, who were the reason the west wrote the refugee convention in the first place.

It is deranged that Russians, Americans, French and Europeans of all descriptions born in the last few years have a "right" to be in Palestine when the Palestinians who were flung out of the country in the ethnic cleansing are denied that right in spite of dozens of UN resolution saying that Israel had to allow them back.

You all need to grow up. Israel is not a state, it has never been a state and it will never be a state.

It does not want peace, it just wants all the pieces of land around it with no arabs so they can live in their fantasy that they had an empty land.

Marilyn, once again you are posting things that are simply not true.

You wrote: "I see that the Israeli's have denied entry to Jimmy Carter".

Complete rubbish. Jimmy Carter is in Israel now and has met with President Shimon Peres plus other Israeli politicians. You're simply posting factually incorrect information in the hope of smearing Israel. See the following link for the true situation with Carter's visit.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/975577.html

Another of your ridiculous statements: "Israel is not a state, it has never been a state and it will never be a state."

If your intention with posts such as that is to come across as someone completely detached from reality then you're doing a fine job.

Finally, you once again assert that Israel "just wants all the pieces of land around it" (in previous posts you've referred to Israel wanting to expand its territory to include parts of Lebanon and other neighbouring states).

Please give me some evidence to support your statement, bearing in mind that Israel previously controlled the Sinai and Gaza and by returning that land it chose to REDUCE, not expand, its territory.

Marilyn is not worth replying to. She makes up nonsense, gets into pointless arguments about linguistics which she doesn't understand, is disordered in her presentations. I don't think she gets any support except from Israeli haters. And they will believe anything, it is a part of their mindset.

A Jewish homeland was planned and begun long before WW2. The declaration of the modern State was after the war but the land was populated with Jews Christians and Muslims goes back long before then. Some Jewish families in Israel long predate Mahomet as do Christian and Samaritans.

Several Islamic states have been practicing a form of religious cleansing, resulting in reductions in non-Muslim populations chiefly Christian. The land of Palestine was a leader in this cleansing process. Many of the ethnically cleansed people from these other lands have been accepted in Israel. This includes Muslim derivations such as the Baha'i who shifted into Haifa.

The Israel haters don't like to hear this, but Israel gives a democratic vote to all, equality in law, allows all religious faiths to build their places of worship, allows atheists and gays to live in peace. This is not the case in many of the Islamic states, when was the last Church built in Saudi Arabia? Why do Jewish schools in Iran not have Jewish headmasters and why are they required to open on the Jewish Sabbath? This would be unacceptable in what most Australians regard as a civilised society.

Israel accepted refugees from Darfur yet the haters misrepresent them them when they closed the doors and said rightly that this is an Arab problem and they cannot take any more.

We hear much about the Palestinian refugees but little about the Jewish refugees from Arab lands let alone Baha'i, Druze, Samaritans etc. They provide about half of Israel's population and had nothing to do with the holocaust. The haters try to dismiss them by being in denial about their treatment in the lands they left - after all we cannot spoil a good prejudice can we?

Continued.

The basis for the American (and Australian support) is simple. They want a reliable democratic presence in the region which contains the Suez Canal and so much of the world's fuel oil reserves. Also Israel is a great innovator in engineering and medicine, we don't want to lose that.

Marilyn,

I agree that Israel is an illegitimate state but the reality is it's here to stay.

There is no theological justification for Israel. God fulfilled his promise by leading the Jews out of captivity into the promised land. It was Jewish sin that led to the destruction of the second temple and the diaspora. God never invited them back; proponents of a racially-ethnic-based nineteenth century nationalist ideology did. Israel is fundamentally illegitimate yet it is here and will stay here.

I think at some point in the future Israel will become a true liberal democracy along western lines. I think Israel is about 20% Arab; so when Arab-Israelis own 20% of Israeli land, populate 20% of the army, constitute 20% of the Knesset and fill other important posts in the judiciary, police, government etc then it might be recognised as a liberal western democracy. As you know there are Nüremburg-type laws which prevent inter-marriage and limit Arabs in the army, civil service etc. This is may not be leading to the same end as the Nazis but the parallels are there. Did the Nazis not ban Jewish-German marriage? Did the Nazis not limit and eventually ban Jews from occupying important positions in the army, judiciary, civil service etc? Were there not many Germans who saw Jews as a fifth column in German society (just as many Jews see Arabs today)?

Not doubt people like logic will call this 'hate'. The truth is in Australia we treat everybody equally. We don't have laws preventing inter-marriage or limiting the rights of some citizens. We aren't occupying anyone's country and we haven't killed thousands of innocent civilians in the past decade. I, and we don't 'hate' anyone.

We have a peaceful society in Australia precisely because we don't hate anyone. My father has a saying: you reap what you sow. Israel was born of terrorism and hatred. It's well documented that Jewish death squads had a policy of sowing terror throughout Palestine to frighten off the Arabs. Israelis today are reaping the rewards of 60 years of hatred against Arabs.

cont...

Now it seems some posters are trying to claim Israel does work to help refugees and prevent genocide. I'm sure they do: but not enough to give back some of the US$3 billion (plus armaments) in aid it receives each year. Not enough to stop Pol Pot, not enought to stop Rwanda, not enought to stop Bosnia. Here we have one of the wealthiest countries in the world receiving more than half of the largest aid budget in the world each year, that has received tens of billions in US loans (that don't require being payed back), not to mention the billions in reparations from Germany and other European countries, yet they're trying to tell me Israel cares about poor people and call me a 'hater'.

Some people have no shame.

There has never been a Palestinian nation.

The Arab Palestinian national movement began in the 1960s. Prior to that Arabs living in Palestine identified themselves as South Syrian or simply as Arabs.

Before World War I, most Arab states didn't exist - look at any map of the Middle East of the late 19th/early 20th century. Self-interested colonialist powers, with pen and ruler drew up current states, without any deference to the peoples forced within these artificial borders.

These powers ignored both history and contemporary events, forcing disparate peoples with long standing enmities, even hatreds, to live together. The horrors witnessed in Iraq are due to this. Colonialists also sliced off part of Iran to include with Iraq.

More bloodshed has occurred within and between these artificially created Arab states than has occurred between Arab states and Israel.

Colonial British interests sank the Faisal-Weizmann Agreement, signed January 3, 1919, which would have seen two separate states, an Arab state and a Jewish state living in harmony and in mutual support.

The UN mandate for Israel, could be seen as the only honest action in the Middle East in the past 100 years.

dane where do you get your information? Israel is already a true liberal democracy along western lines. Every Arab, every Christian, Baha'i Druze have an equal vote with Jews. There are elected Arab MPs in the Parliament, there is an Arab cabinet minister.

There is absolutely no law in Israel forbidding intermarriages. Arabs are not compelled to serve in the armed forces, but may volunteer to do so and indeed some do. Nor are they banned from important positions. I repeat, there is an Arab Cabinet Minister.

You talk about Israeli death squads - Arabs attacked ancient established Jewish communities to force them out of their homelands before the establishment of the Jewish state. Jerusalem had a majority Jewish population through the 19th century, armed Arab mobs tried to kill them and drive them out. You ignore all of that. When the Israelis try to defend themselves you accuse them of death squads.

When you believe and promote half truths like these against Israel is it unreasonable for us to suspect that you may be motivated by hatred? If not hatred, what is it? Why do you not answer comments about the disappearance of non-Muslims from Arabic Palestine, why Bethlehem no longer has a Christian majority? Why Baha'i, Druze and Samaritans resettled in Israel. Deathly silence about all of that.

The State of Israel...will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
-- Israel's Declaration of Independence

Source: "The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel," Ministry of Foreign Affairs Web site, May 14, 1948

www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Declaration%20of%20Establishment%20of%20State%20of%20Israel

Do Fatah, Hamas, Iran, the Taliban or Saudi Arabia have similar clauses in their declarations?

Logic, Israel also promised the UN in 1947 that they would accept 56% of the land in exchange for treating the natives with respect and so on. In 1948 they spent 6 months ethnically cleansing nearly 800,000 people from the land.

Now will you people stop mouthing the stupid zionist crap from wikipedia and go off and read some real reports and books about this pissant little non-state and then get back to us.

As to the rest of it - judaism is a silly cult no different to any other and I for one and sick to death of jews constantly shoving their nonsense down the throats of the rest of the world.

Kapeesh?

There are 14 million of you - go and talk to each other.

Marilyn, the irony in your demand for OLO posters to "get back to us" on this issue is delicious! How long have we been waiting for you to "get back to us" on numerous issues? (see the above posts for several challenges to Marilyn to respond to specific questions)

If you possessed any kind of character you'd be big enough to admit that several of your statements on here have been completely and utterly false. One simple example - you said "I see that the Israeli's have denied entry to Jimmy Carter". I pointed out that this was absolute rubbish and Carter is currently in Israel as we speak. Your response - complete silence. Others admit when they have made factual errors. Why can't you?

Your approach to this topic is dishonest and unbalanced (eg. constant ranting against the Jewish religion but nothing about the far greater dangers associated with radical Islam). When challenged to back up your views you run and hide, returning later with more rubbish on completely unrelated issues. Pathetic really.

My rant is over. Let's wait with bated breath for Marilyn's next one...

marilyn

You have finally exposed yourself with a clearly hate dialogue. You believe only what you want to hear report incorrectly, refuse to respond to any criticisms of your accuracy, anything against your argument you dismiss as Zionist and therefore worthless. You have just insulted Israel, and all the Jews due to your narrow and stupid prejudices.

You are now exposed for what you are. Perhaps the rest of us can forget that you exist and get back to a dialogue which recognises that there are three parties to this sad situation. The Israelis (Arab, Jew, Christian Baha'i etc) who are sick of the conflict and want to enjoy the fruits of their work, those in the Palestinian territories who want opportunities, peace and freedom of religion (allowed to all Israelis) and the Islamic extremists who are spoiling the lives of everyone with their nasty philosophies.

The latter are the ones who are blowing up factories in Gaza meaning that no one will invest there, killing moderates, trying to put women into slavery, and using false arguments to incite their children against Israel. Supported by evil despotic regimes making themselves rich after exploiting their own people they channel huge sums of money into supporting these extremists rather than invest in opportunities for their people.

It is they who were responsible for murdering Australians in Bali (forgotten that Marilyn?). Unfortunately wonderful Muslim people are demonized because this thoroughly evil group claim their actions are in the Name of Allah. If they succeed in removing Israel they won't stop there, if they can put you Marilyn in a Hijab or worse they will.

They control the Gaza strip, which Israel no longer occupies, and are trying to indoctrinate the children in their awful ways with children's programs. They succeeded in Iran and for a while in Afghanistan. WE have been shown smuggled film of their atrocities on TV. Look at U-tube, only the blind would see this as Zionist propoganda.

Why should Israel care of Arabic-Palestinians more, than their leaders of Hamas, for instance?

You had fired-you got responded.

Dane says "we aren't occuping anyone's country ".

Steady up - no one has been able to produce any of the pieces of paper that say the British or any Government that followed,negotiated the purchase of Australia off the varous Aboriginal Owners .

We,mainly with our private armies [while the government put their colonial blinkers on] just took it by force - remember ?

Perhaps we really do need compulsory history classes .

Or are we better off and less bitter , ignorant of our past ?

MichaelK

It is good to see you back. Welcome.

Yes, Hamas have treated their people terribly - murdering, and terrorising them. In fact, so many Gazans left for the US, Canada and Europe in the early part of 2007 alone, that a Fatwa was issued in June 2007 forbidding them to leave the territory, unless for educational reasons.

Unfortunately, many Westerners, at least here on OLO deliberately ignore this. This indicates that they are not really concerned about the Palestinians at all, otherwise they would have condemned the Hamas. Those OLO who don't do so, are the worst kind of hypocrites.

Danielle,

Perhaps, their leaders take a Britain + attachments for an example: hypocrisy and discrimination for own folks and mentoring the outer tribes.

Marilyn Shephard,

Considering your many hatreds especially of anything to do with Jews and/or Israel, indeed any discussion of this topic, why do you constantly return to such OLO theads and subject us to your tirades. You have implied that the entire issue should be dropped ... then why do you ...

Why not venture comments to OLO threads on which you undoubtedly would be better informed, such as underwater-knitting; or indeed on “imaginary friends” on which you appear to have both personal and obsessional experience. One suspects these provide you with your inside information, to which mere mortals like us are not privy.

You harp constantly about the term “anti-semite” which has a very specific meaning. Find your way to a moderately educated person. They may be able to explain it to you. If one were to apply your logic, in manipulating this term, to the word “hippopotamus” it could well be such an animal would be a legitimate entrant in the Melbourne Cup.

To use your colloquial language, Marilyn, you don’t speak crap. You suffer from verbal diahorrea ... much less substantial than crap, unrestrained and with urgent constancy

6 pages of regurgitation of Zionist cant amid a few sensible posts. The propaganda machine must love Loewenstein...

Antiseptic

6 pages of regurgitation of Zionist cant amid a few sensible posts.

That is the hate of which I am complaining about. Anything positive about Israel is dismissed by you as Zionist propaganda.

What are your comments about a children's program on TV Palestinian extolling the virtues of martyrdom? That to civilized people everywhere including Muslims is disgusting in the extreme. It has been shown on Al Jazeera and can be found on U tube. What about the Jews and Christian and others forced out of Islamic Republics? What about the Samaritans and Baha'i who were given refuge in Israel? What about the rockets fired at children in Israeli schools by Palestinians? What about the Fatah supporters who were thrown off roofs by Hamas supporters? Zionist cant? No the sad truth which you Israel haters dismiss in your willful ignorance.

Israel like Australia has full democracy where every one regardless of religion has a vote. Yet you with your hatred dismiss these facts as Zionist cant. What about Palestinian cant? Lowenstein is disliked because he distorts and invents. In his petition he included fake names, even included people who had never signed.

You don't have to be a Zionist to see what the Palestinians are doing. That is why Kevin Rudd rightly compares democratic and free Israel with Australia. I don't mind criticism but deliberate distortions are something different. Those stupid ignrant gays who march with the Palestinians who would kill them if they lived there. Israel in contrast has an annual gay parade.

Strange that only Israel is faced with a barage of criticisms like this. Not Korea, not Saddam's Iraq or Iran where gross abrogation of women's rights, killing of gays stonings are not uncommon. No mention of treatment of Christians in Palestine.

That is irrational hatred.

Logic: "hate"; "Israel haters"; "hatred"; "irrational hatred."

The propaganda machine seems to be stuck. Perhaps it's time for its 5000 hate service?

This discussion was about Israel,not Korea, not Saddam's Iraq, not Iran, not Timbuktoo. Why would I comment on those places in a thread about Israel? Let me ask you another: as an Australian, which I presume is how you also identify yourself, what does Israel have to do with you or me? Do try to avoid mentioning Outer Mongolia in your response.

antiseptic ,
If a fearfull and acquisitive Israelei Government feeds "intelligence " to the US on Sadam's plans and the gas guzzling US wants an excuse to secure oil supplies, all of a sudden with a Howard led government, we have young Australians in the firing line.

That's what bothers me about Israel .

kartiya jim,

What an inventive scenario! So Israel is responsible for the naughty American attack on nice Saddam. You also use petroleum products. I would hate to think of what would happen if the world's oil supplies fell totally in control of Islamic extremists, or are you blissfully unaware of their philosophies towards infidels? Fortunately our leaders on both sides of the fence are well informed on the realities of the world.

Antiseptic

In answer to your questions I am 3rd generation Australian and Jewish. My sister is married to a descendant of a Jewish convict. We are neither religious nor Zionist, but Israel has for us the same meaning as Ireland has to descendants of Irish colonists or the Mother country to those of English background.

Yes Jews were there on the 1st Fleet, the beginnings of Adelaide and Melbourne contained Jews amongst their early movers and shakers. The war hero General Sir John Monash was Jewish and a Zionist. Jews are part of the Australian psyche, our slang contains words of Hebrew origin. Antisemitism hardly existed here until some immigrants from countries with a bad record of that disease arrived after the war. Now Synagogues and Jewish schools for the first time have to use security measures. This has nothing to do with Israel it occurred long after 1948.

So many of the superficial trendy new left criticise Israel for anything they can think of, truth is no restraint on them, yet ignore the extreme horrors and gross human rights violations of Islamism. This smacks of bias to me.

Instead of answering my questions about that you try to pretend it is irrelevant, it would show if you have an awareness of the other side of the argument, rather than just a one eyed bias based on Palestinian cant.

logic: "Israel has for us the same meaning as Ireland has to descendants of Irish colonists or the Mother country to those of English background."

Erm..Israel was created in 1948. There weren't too many Israelis or even Zionists (the Zionist Movement was created in 1897) on the first fleet. Therefore, your ancestry is likely to be British and the British Isles the "mother country".
You live in Australia, not Israel, which means you are "Australian", not "Jewish", just as I am "Australian" not "atheist" and your ancestors were some form of "British". So, I ask again, what does Israel have to do with me or you, as Australians?

logic:"Antisemitism hardly existed here until some immigrants from countries with a bad record of that disease arrived after the war"

Actually, Australia has been far more anti-Jewish in the past although the present tide of ignorant vilification being directed by the likes of you against Arabs is increasing anti-Semitism in general. After the war, Australia was not willing to even accept Jewish refugees, specifying a preference for those who "looked like us". Perhaps your Israeli history comes from the same flawed source?

To cut to the chase, what most offends me about Zionists is that they are always looking to both play the victim and to seek to excuse appalling behaviour with a cry of "but they're worse", which my children learnt was not a valid justification by the time they were about 5. If Israel behaves badly, then Israel must be held to account, not those against whom the poor behaviour was directed. If those other regimes behave poorly, they must also be held to account, independently of Israel. Israel frequently behaves appallingly, and is rarely held to account, with the Zionist propaganda machine skilled at swamping discussion.
"logic"? "Hysteria" would be a better handle.

Antiseptic

You really do abuse the truth and your dislike of Israel shows through.
First of all you confuse the establishment of the state with the existence of Jewish people in that part of the world. If Israel did not exist until 1948 then the Islamic Palestinian nation did not exist until after the 6 day war. Before the UN vote it was part of the British mandate, before then part of the Ottoman Empire, after then the West Bank was part of Jordan and Gaza part of Egypt.

There were Jews living in Israel continuously throughout recorded history. More Jews arrived about 200 years ago mainly from elsewhere in the Ottoman Empire, that was a result of discrimination against non Muslims. If you regard that as vilification, so be it, sometimes the truth hurts. Apparently in your book it is OK to vilify Israel but not Muslim countries. Later Jews arrived from Russia, there you do have the first examples of European Jew arriving from a different culture, and could argue that they shouldn't have gone there. If you feel that way you should book yourself a one way ticket out of Australia and leave this land to the aborigines. European Jews arrived in the ME about the same time as the British arrived in Australia.

The Jews who arrived in the area now known as Israel, from the ancient term, Kingdom of Israel arrived to a semi desert and managed to establish farms though they only land they could buy was the least productive. Arab communities according to both Turkish and British figures were quite small. Many Arabs arrived as the lands improved, their descendents now claim to be original inhabitants though in many cases this is just not true, Arafat for example came from Egypt.

Jerusalem had a majority Jewish population through most of the 19th century.

A large number of Jews arrived from Europe after the war, and after partition, and this is the sad part, Arabs left the area now known as Israel and equal or greater numbers of Jews left Arab lands. This was an India/Pakistan like situation except the Jews were rehoused in Israel while the Arabs were given no help other than UN aid. The Islamists have been able to exploit this situation. Israel also played host to other persecuted minorities such as the Baha'i, the Druze, the Samaritans. They also gave the Arabs equal rights with the Jews, something never given to Jews under Muslim rule.

A lot of Australians regard themselves as Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, Aboriginal,the list goes on, that is modern multicultural Australia. A lot of the groups have an affection for other lands, and this we have accepted from the beginnings of modern Australia.

Your assertion that Australia was not willing to accept Jewish immigration was about as accurate as the rest of your distorted arguments. There was never discrimination against Jewish immigrants fron the white commonwealth and limitations against displaced Jews did not last for long.

You make the statement "the likes of you", that is a clear sign of bigotry. You claim that Israel behaves appallingly - it gives equal rights to minorities, there are Muslim Arabs in the Knesset, including a cabinet minister is that an example of appalling behaviour? When it tries to defend itself against neighbours who swear to destroy it and shower it with thousands of missiles it is accused of bad behaviour, it is doing no more than Britain did to defend itself during the war.

If your heart bleeds so much for the Muslims, and I assure you that mine and that of my Jewish friends does just that, try raising the roof over the treatment of women, gays and others by the awful fanatics who are taking over the ME and have their eyes on everyone else. That would show me that you are in fact reasonable and unbiased.

I am an agnostic.

logic:"First of all you confuse the establishment of the state with the existence of Jewish people in that part of the world"

Actually, you're the one that claimed to consider Israel as "the mother country" despite the fact it didn't exist as a country when your ancestors migrated. Confused much?

I would also remind you that the discussion is about Israel, not about British Jewry or the Ottoman empire or even Palestine. Next you'll be trying to talk about the Jewish people of Alpha-Centauri or something equally irrelevant. The propaganda machine needs a tune-up.

I asked you what that State has to do with you and me as Australians, not what it has to do with Jewish people or other religious groups that may have lived there over time. Any chance of an answer?

logic:"Your assertion that Australia was not willing to accept Jewish immigration was about as accurate as the rest of your distorted arguments. There was never discrimination against Jewish immigrants from the white commonwealth and limitations against displaced Jews did not last for long."

I didn't claim there was discrimination against the migration of Commonwealth subjects on the basis of religion. I claimed that Australia refused entry to Jewish refugees. I was right. The propaganda machine could do with a major overhaul.
http://www.holocaust.com.au/mm/i_australia.htm.

The more I read your regurgitated rubbish, the more convinced I am that Zionism is a nasty stain and its practitioners dishonest to the core if you are a representative sample. So far, I've been accused of "hating Israel", generalised "hatred", being a "Muslim lover", telling lies (by a seemingly habitual and very confused liar) and still you've not answered a very simple question. No doubt you think that makes you a good little Zionist. I think it makes you a dishonest fool

Scientific evidence has proven that Jews as a people come from a specific area in the Middle East; and are distinct from other semitic groups.

Let's forget that even non-religious Jews generally have some knowledge of Hebrew, or at least can identify it, know Jewish writings, Jewish children's stories, and Jewish philosophy of the past, share certain elements of a common heritage, and celebrate Jewish festivals. Just as other non-religious groups celebrate Christmas and Easter. Not to be forgotten is a comment made by an Aussie young woman complaining of why bring religion into the Christmas holidays.

A number of diseases, such as ”Tay-Sachs Disease, are exclusively Jewish disorders; as is the genetic form of breast cancer known as BRCA2, one of three breast or ovarian cancer mutations found only in Jews or descendants of Jews.

Based on the anthropological and the genetic record, genetistis and other scientists have established that the core Israelite population was not a single homogenous population but originally a combination of local populations—Canaanites, Semites, and others—who merged into a unity by about 1000 B.C.

cont ...

In the late 1990s, expert geneticists from the U.S., Europe, South Africa, and Israel sampled the DNA of nearly 1,400 males, Jews and non-Jews, from around the world in search of common date markers. They found that the overwhelming majority of Jewish populations worldwide—whether Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Indian, Oriental, or Black African (except of Ethiopia, “Falashas”)—shared a common Middle Eastern ancestry on the male line that not only extended back to ancient Israel 4,000 years ago, but also supported Biblical history, of Abraham founding the Israelite line.

In 1995 Karl Skorecki and geneticists designed a test, based on genetics, to determine whether Jewish males who claimed to be kohanim (descendants of the ancient Jewish priestly class) in fact were. Testing 200 Jewish males, Sephardic, Ashkenazic, and Oriental, they found 98.5% of those who said they were kohanim shared a genetic marker for a common ancestor, a signature mutation pattern found in only 3% of the general Jewish population.

These geneticists calling this the Cohan Modal Haplotype (CMH), a series of six genetic markers common to the kohanim, found it originated more than 3,000 years ago—approximately the time of the biblical Aaron, the first kohan.

Lead researcher Michael Hammer stated: ... (Jews) are a single ethnic group coming from the Middle East. Even when looking European, with blue eyes and light skin, the [male] genes determine that they are from Middle East.”

It would be well to remember that Australia only became a "country" - the Federated Commonwealth of Australia in 1901 - only 47 years before the establishment of modern Israel.

Danielle, given the matrilineal nature of the Jewish faith, together with the obsession with ancestry and the absence of a tradition of proselytising it is hardly surprising that a genetic heritage should have been preserved. Nonetheless, a couple of your observations are clearly misleading. For example, among Jews Tay-Sachs is a common condition only within the Ashkenazim and occurs equally frequently within other non-Jewish populations. Do you think that the Cajuns of Louisiana are a long-lost tribe of Israel too?

No one has suggested that the Jews as a group are not from the Middle East, so I can't see what your point is supposed to be there. I have Danish ancestry, only 2 generations ago, should I as a result be given an automatic right to "return to Denmark" and displace the local population? What if I made a point of observing Viking traditions? What if I could show that my ancestors all the way back to Erik the Red had done so, albeit in a different country?

Frankly, I'm not sure if you have any idea what it is you're trying to say and I'm very confused by your reference to Australia's age. Please enlighten us.

Antiseptic

It is a distortion to say that the Jews in Israel displaced the local population. That is Palestinian cant pure and simple. Turkish and British records show that the populations in Palestine were very small in the 19th century. As modern agriculture was introduced, Arabs as well as Jews moved into the area supplementing the small numbers of Arabs, and some Jews, who were already there. Displacement as I have

said in an earlier post was tragic but it also occurred amongst Jews Christians and others from Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Lebanon, Yemen etc etc etc.

Where do you think those displaced non-Muslims should have been rehoused? Or will you show your dislike and and dismiss the truth as Zionist cant.

Re the right of return, all countries have the right to choose immigrants, The Howard government was returned with that slogan. Israel could have phrased it differently, instead of right of return they could have simply chose largely Jews in the way Australia chose to prefer the White Commonwealth. Would you have preferred that approach?

You consider that I should not feel ancestral ties with ancient with Israel despite DNA evidence. OK but that does not change my argument about Israel or give you a valid reason to regard Zionists with such dislike. And I did not call you either an antisemite or a Muslim lover. In any case what is wrong with loving Muslims?

Your arguments are all over the place your main technique is to scatter your attacks, always avoiding main issues.

I ask you again, and this is significant, what are your thoughts about the appalling and real breaches of human rights in respect of women's rights and rights of non Muslims and the killing of homosexuals in some countries? Have you any pity for these people? Do you argue on their behalf? Do you feel angry about the despotic fundamentalist regimes in Iran and elsewhere? Or the dictatorships in Saudi Arabia where they forbid Churches? These are only a short distance away from Israel, many Jews were forced out of these lands.

I ask these questions not just of you but of others who sent posts. I just want reassurance that it is not only Israel which concerns you all. And this time don't try a smokescreen of minor diversions from the argument.

Logic ,
If you listened to the ABC Radio National Sun Morning [27th] you would have heard one older Israeli say that before the Second World War Israel was predominantly for Israelis - not Jews .

It is podcast and a very interesting window on what thinking is going on .

With evidently an average 8 children per family and no compulsory army service the Fundamentalist Jerusalem Jews are evidently taking over the city .

Secular Israelis are being made feel very uncomfortable and moving out.

logic:"It is a distortion to say that the Jews in Israel displaced the local population. "
"Displacement as I have said in an earlier post was tragic but it also occurred amongst Jews Christians and others from Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Lebanon, Yemen etc etc etc."

So, according to you it didn't happen, but if it did, it also happened elsewhere in the region, so that makes it all right. I really think you should consider a complete replacement of the propaganda machine - it appears to be terminal.

logic:"what are your thoughts about the appalling and real breaches of human rights in respect of women's rights and rights of non Muslims and the killing of homosexuals in some countries? Have you any pity for these people? Do you argue on their behalf? Do you feel angry about the despotic fundamentalist regimes in Iran and elsewhere? Or the dictatorships in Saudi Arabia where they forbid Churches?"

What does any of that have to do with Israel, except in respect of the common thread of religious fanaticism and human rights abuse? Once again your only defence is "we might be bad, but that's OK, because they're worse".

logic: "I just want reassurance that it is not only Israel which concerns you all."

If you actually read threads about topics other than Israel, you'd not have to bother asking the question, would you?

Antiseptic

Jews have been a continuing presence in the Middle East since time immemorial. The earliest known Hebrew script dates from the 11th century BC, a proto-Hebrew script predated this; Arabic script is distinctly different.

Once the modern state of Iisrael was established it became illegal in Arab States to be a Jew. Some 900,000 Jews, whose entire lineage had always been in the Middle East, were persecuted and forced to flee; everything they owned including their homes,businesses, schools, hospitals, synagogues were expropriated by Arab governments without compensation. Often they were left with nothing but the clothes on their backs.

Throughout European history, Jews were constantly expelled from one country or another, then invited back because of their expertise, then expelled again, terrorised and killed. This was supported by, and enormously rewarding for the locals as they assumed ownership of deserted Jewish properties and businesses.

Jews in England were expelled in 1290 by decree of King Edward I. Indeed, Blood Libel originated in England. In the 17th century Oliver Cromwell unmasked a tiny Jewish community, secretly practicing Judaism, and let them stay - but exploited them. The Jewish community in Britain remained minute until the late nineteenth century. The Jewish Naturalisation Act of 1753 lasted only a few months. Only in 1858 were Jews emancipated in England, and even then it was hedged with qualifications until the 1890’s.

Jews were excellent for preventing wholesale panic. Identified as the cause of outbreaks of the Black Death, they were subjected to unique, but fatal forms of “disease control”.

Jews were also star attractions at religious occasions such as autos de fé providing not only spectacular physical illumination for the onlookers, but also profound spiritual insights.

Perhaps some non-Jews thought these unpleasant, but for others these were entertainments. And Jews, never known to let anyone down, were always centre stage somewhere in Europe.

If not persecuted and murdered, Jews were discriminated against in some way - the professions permitted them, areas they could reside in, taxes. Some countries only accepted the marriage of one son within a Jewish family, as legal.

cont ...

Albeit, Russia didn't discriminate against Jews for military service; indeed lowered the age to 12 yrs - just for Jewish boys.

Where Jews were accepted, (albeit some discrimination/victimization occurred). Jews considered themselves nationals first, Jews secondly, giving loyalty, service, lives for their countries. Iron Crosses won bravely in WWI, led nazis directly to their Jewish owners - and gas-chambers.

A Polish friend told me he and his mates enjoyed a regular activity - generally after Mass - descending on Jewish areas, bashing them, destroying their property. Police did not interfere.

In WWII, German and Austrian Jewish refugees, initally granted visas, had them overturned in all British territories, when Britain entered the war ... and not just British territories. Governments forgot to inform these refugees. At least these Jews could cling to a feeble hope - even as the gas chambers clanged shut behind them. Later, Russian Jews, persecuted and killed, weren’t considered for entry into non-communist countries - paranoia of “reds under the beds”. Fortunately, Israel was there.

In 1960’s Australia, numerous workplaces wouldn’t employ Jews. On applying for a position with a national newspaper I was presented with an application form - “Jews and Catholics need not apply”. How long did this discrimination last ...

Jews are a wondrous group: satan’s spawn, g-d-killers, souces of disease, cannibals, traitors, sub-human contaminants, communists, capitalists, colonialists ... and now -

... the “well informed” explain: Israeli Jews (all 5 million) intend to take over the Middle East of 1.6 billion people. But this pales in significance with their well-known conspiracy to take over the world. Jewish total population14 million - worldwde population over 6 billion. One surmises that Jewish fetuses are being allotted extremely large territories. How very versatile are Jews - the “bogey-man” for all neurotic adults.

Antiseptic ...

Name a century in European history when Jews haven’t been persecuted and killed.

It is illegal in Arab countries for Jews to live there ... except Egypt which has about, or rather, limited to 100 ...

And you naively state that Jews do not need a homeland ...

Danielle: "And you naively state that Jews do not need a homeland ..."

Would that be the "long-lost tribe" of "Cajun Jews" in Louisiana that have Tay-Sachs syndrome (even the same mutation) at the same rate as the Ashkenazim, despite your claims that it is an exclusively Jewish condition.

The main reason for anti-Jewish sentiment historically has been the sense that the Jews are more loyal to their fellow Jews than to their greater society, I suspect. Such a situation can hardly be expected to engender great feelings of communality and any regime that is essentially despotic, such as was the case with all of them prior to the French Revolution, could be reasonably anticipated to take steps to stamp out an easily-identified source of disloyalty, whether it existed in reality or not. If you look at the examples you've given, I suspect you could find many other minorities equally persecuted. The unique features of the Jews in this regard are their matrilinear descent and their self-appointed status as "the chosen race". This means that even when the men (and historically, it was nearly always the men, the holocaust was an exception I believe) are herded off to be killed and the women are raped or taken away, any ensuing progeny are Jewish, thus preserving the "race" and also preserving the oral histories. Most other groups historically have been patrilinear, so when a woman was taken from her culture, her offspring lost their heritage as part of her culture.

Danielle: "Jews have been a continuing presence in the Middle East since time immemorial. The earliest known Hebrew script dates from the 11th century BC, a proto-Hebrew script predated this; Arabic script is distinctly different."

So? Do you know a single person in your own circle of Jewish friends who has recent (say within the last 5 generations) ancestry in the Middle East that predates the formation of Israel?
As I said, I have a Danish grandmother, should that give me carte blanche to settle in Denmark at the expense of local Danes? If not, why not and if so, why?

Antiseptic: “As I said, I have a Danish grandmother, should that give me carte blanche to settle in Denmark at the expense of local Danes? If not, why not and if so, why?” – because she is not the English, surely. Otherwise, you ought to have a “right of aboard” (some different word used to usually in job offers targeting Anglo/Saxons/Celts only In the British Commonwealth employment opportunities sections) in the UK. Of course, if you are white. And please, do not be obsessed with a common belief in the Jewish mutual loyalty: not much in common between of-different-places-originating Jews either in Australia or even in Israel. I am not going to mention a common Jewish proverb because of possibility to be accused in breading anti-Semitism, which is a very constituent of Australian xenophobia and racism having been blossoming under and since a Howard rule already.

Danielle, your “Later, Russian Jews, persecuted and killed, weren’t considered for entry into non-communist countries” is although fantastic and testifying: the Jews were DISCRIMINATED, not killed in the streets as in the Europe of the Inquisition, a significant time of the "later Russian"-Soviet history although the USSR provided refuge to millions of the European Jews lucky to escape homelands occupied by the “civilised democratic Nazi” Germany of Hitler as “neutral countries” refused entry to Jews-holders of legal valid documents according to memorandums of understanding with the Third Reich. Not speaking of OPPORTUNITIES REALISED in a main-stream -using an Australian definition, society, achievements, of which level is still a dream for the Jews/non-Anglos/non-Christians in Australia.

Logic: “Israel like Australia has full democracy”. Well, of course Israelis (both the Jews and others, the local Arabs inclusively) are capable to change their governing politicians even more effectively, than in contemporary semi-colonies of English Kingdom.

In a few words, Israel had been reinstated/exists as a cradle of a Jewish nation, for the Jews seeking ultimate refuge from biological hatred, and for own Jewish way of living.

Is this inspiration something illogical, while round a globe any country of Anglo-sphere has still been associated with blond grey-eyed Anglo-representatives only?

Antiseptic

“ ... The main reason for anti-Jewish sentiment historically has been the sense that the Jews are more loyal to their fellow Jews than to their greater society ...”

No. It was because they were considered Christ-killers - G-d-killers in Christian Europe.

Jewish teaching is that is that their first loyality it to their country, secondly they are Jews.
Jews have fought against each other when fighting on different sides in war.

“ ... minorities equally persecuted ...”

Identify any minority which has historically and consistently been persecuted in the same way as Jews..

“ ... it was nearly always the men ...”

Jewish men, women and children have been persecuted and murdered indiscriminately throughout European history.

“ ... choseness ...”

“Choseness” does not indicate being “better”, just that they were chosen to teach the concept of monotheism. In fact, converting to Judaism is a long and difficult task. They do not proslytise, nor do they readily take converts. Jews believe that other religions are valid. They do not believe that being Jewish grants one any “leg up” in the “salvation” stakes. In mainstream Judaism, one is judged on one’s merits, not one’s religion. Incidentally, not all religious Jews believe in an afterlife. Different groups see this a personal decision. Being Jewish is not easy ... as very evident from just the OLO posters here.

“ ... matrilineal descent ...”

Matrilineal descent, which incidentally is not now specific to all Jewish groups, was introduced in the Biblical period; so that the children of Jewish women who were raped were not set apart from other Jews. This is quite different to some contemporary societies, where children from wartime-rape are considered half-breed bastards; and extremely disadvantaged in society. Also, very pragmatically, a Jewish woman who had a child, ensured that at least one parent was Jewish.

“... Do you know a single person in your own circle of Jewish friends who has recent (say within the last 5 generations) ancestry in the Middle East that predates the formation of Israel? ...”

cont ...

Yes, I know two families - both with unbroken lineage back to the biblical period in the Middle East. I nearly became engaged to the son of one family, Egyptian-Jews; he had also been born in Egypt. Both families had been expelled from Arab states.

“ ...I have a Danish grandmother, should that give me carte blanche to settle in Denmark at the expense of local Danes? If not, why not and if so, why? ...”

I am rather surprised that once you leave Denmark, you are dispossessed of your heritage.

England and Ireland have what is called the “grandparent stamp” which permits the holder unrestricted residence in England and/or Ireland. Currently I have a cousin living in England based on an “Irish” grandfather’s stamp. For over 12 years he has split up his year between England and Australia. His son has lived continually in England for over 15 years.

Indeed, some Australians, whose origins lay in Europe and elsewhere, are so attached to their heritage that they have dual nationality.

Emerging now: Contemporary racism and the new face of anti-semitism ... Just as ugly as in the past.

None should ignore the vicious and well-organised campaign in England - (and ... “England” talking about colonialism ...!?) - in an attempt to ban Israeli Jews in 2005 - and the merger of English organisations Natfhe and AUT.

Patently, the language of “anti-Zionism” is being used to create an ideological foundation and climate for licensing more openly antisemitic discourses and movements

Jews should have seen it coming. Sometime earlier an academic refused to teach whilst an Israeli-Jew was sitting in the lecture theatre. No matter that this paticular Israeli had been a pacifist, had never been in action ... The academic wouldn’t have “survived” if he had done this to a student from anywhere else.

Do you naively still state that Jews do not need a homeland ... Or is it that you don’t want them to have one?

MichaelK

Thank you for very honest post ...

Danielle: "It was because they were considered Christ-killers"

So, it wasn't racism, but religious persecution. Congratulations, now you're starting to think. I do dispute your simplistic explanation though, as the exclusivity of the Jewish religion naturally leads to suspicion, even in secular societies. It's only a small step from suspicion to persecution - ask any Muslim, or Mormon. I'm not suggesting that's proper, merely factual.

Danielle: "Identify any minority which has historically and consistently been persecuted in the same way as Jews.."

Identify any minority which has existed as an identifiable group for as long as Jews... Minorities are persecuted everywhere and in every era. If a specific minority is in existence for a long period it will be persecuted over and over again. Ask the Gypsies.

Danielle: "“Choseness” does not indicate being “better”,"

I didn't suggest it did, but it is easily misconstrued to take that meaning, especially if Bill the Despot gets the idea that the people involved think they're "better" than him...

Danielle: "Being Jewish is not easy"

Being human is not easy. Why should Jews be an exception?

Danielle: "a Jewish woman who had a child, ensured that at least one parent was Jewish."

Hence ensuring that a line of descent could be documented, which was my point. IOW, the genetic studies you mentioned earlier (what about that "exclusively Jewish" Tay-Sachs syndrome, BTW, any chance of acknowledgement that you were wrong)are hardly surprising.

Danielle:"Both families had been expelled from Arab states."

Around 1948?

Danielle: "I am rather surprised that once you leave Denmark, you are dispossessed of your heritage."

What makes you say that? I asked a question : should my Grandmother's nationality mean I have a right to move to Denmark at the expense of the local Danes? An answer would be nice...

cont'd

Danielle" "England and Ireland have what is called the “grandparent stamp”

All well and good, but how many non-Israeli Jews have an Israeli grandmother? OTOH, how many non-Israeli non-Jews have a grandparent born in what is now Israel?

Danielle: "Patently, the language of “anti-Zionism” is being used to create an ideological foundation and climate for licensing more openly antisemitic discourses and movements"

So now we're back to the proposition that being anti-Zionist is the same as being anti-Jewish. Rubbish. Show a single thing that I have said that is anti-Jewish, rather than anti-Zionist. My biggest issue with you Zionists is that you are intellectually dishonest and hypocritical, not to mention racist in the extreme. As long as you continue to be that way, I'll continue to point it out. I expect I'll be doing so for some time to come.

For the record, I have several friends who are Jewish. One of them was the best man at my wedding, another one is an Israeli living in Australia who spent 8 years in the Israeli navy. None of them are Zionists. We have had many discussions on the subject.

Antiseptic

My biggest issue with you anti-Zionists is that you are intellectually dishonest and hypocritical, not to mention racist in the extreme. As long as you continue to be that way, I'll continue to point it out. I expect I'll be doing so for some time to come.

I can use emotive statements just like you. They mean nothing and have no place in an argument.

Jews do not regard themselves as chosen people that was an argument used by the Christian Church to discredit a people who would not adopt Christianity.

If you chose to return to Denmark how would that be at the expense of other Danes? There is plenty of room for you all.

I have not said that Jews are the only ones to be persecuted I think all racial persecution is wrong. I would like to see Christians, Druze etc allowed to return to their ancestral Arab countries with the same rights as afforded to Muslims in the State of Israel.

Would that not appeal to you?

BB - Part One

For a people having suffered so much over the years, modern Israeli leaders show an unfortunate lack of humility - almost as if such is not needed because they have so much rightness on their sides?

Possibly being pushed down for hundreds of years, the Jewish race is still proud to produce such as Einstein, proving so beneficial to Western thought.

There is historical proof also how most of the students attending the Great Library of Alexandria in Egypt were Jews, proving how progressive-minded Jews did benefit from Hellenistic culture, but also how the Jewish boy Jesus could also have been influenced by such culture, especially as the Sermon on the Mount seems intended to enlighten human reasoning with its - blessed are - rather than the religious - thou shalt - which appears so dictatorial compared to the later Sermon.

There was a saying in the bush that Jewish friendliness can be just a part of business, that Jewish traders or woolbuyers though friendly enough doing deals in woolsheds, it was hard to get them to come into the homestead for a cuppa, either that most of them have chips on their shoulders, or it is part of their religion.

It was different mixing with them in the Australian military, often establishing mateships and willing to die with and for their cobbers. Such has also happened in sport, which has always been a good medium for such

Logic,

“Jews do not regard themselves as chosen people”. You are right: Jews feel themselves chosen under duress only. And having beside others from non-Jewish minorities in the same pitiful situation makes mentally capable persons no any better.

The question remains what is duress and what is a sort of mentality dominant in particular societies.

Danielle,

Thank you for your thanks. I am simply realistic, much more realistic than those recently paid for "Monash University Study on How Skilled Migration Contributes Australia".

Or their English allows playing words less straight, surely.

One could also question how many Jews hold high positions in our universities when only last night on Foxtel we had the Sky political commentator discussing the Afghanistan problem with who looked as severe as one of our ASIO officials and an Islamic professor from one of our universities, the Muslim academic appearing much more eager to discuss mixing more with the possibly Taliban and even admitting that Western friendliness might be just the old colonial process once again precluding the big imperialist takeover, even suggesting that it was one lurk the Afghans had been able to resist during the British occupation next door in greater India.

Taking a philosophical point of view, one wonders what really goes on in the minds of Israeli leaders. Certainly they know now that after their experience with the Nazis that it is safer to be on the side of a leading democratic power like the US, but to be also a virtual hangdog of the present American autocratic world policy, especially being backed by the US to do ariel attacks as they did earlier on Saddam’s possibly nuclear construction and just lately on Syria’s seems as if little Israel is being used and abused by the US and UN to carry out Middle East responsibilities which should be left to more globally-backed powers.

Many thanks for the extra space,

regards, BB - WA.

bushbred

I wish commentators would learn more about Judaism and more about the large variety of people who are considered Jews.

The preachings of Jesus were largely out of the Old Testament or the later Jewish sages. He was a Jews preaching and practicing Judaism. Apparent differences often occur because the medieval Church made changes, both in translation into the Latin and because of their neglect of Jewish interpretations of the Bible.

Many Jews have moved into prominence, particularly in science, medicine and the arts. The list is formidable. Likewise Israel has been a high performer. I suspect the religion with its lack of dogma and its focus on this life rather than the next may the the reason. Christians and Muslims tend to be jealous of Jewish success, unable to see that the dogmas of their own teachings are often responsible for their relative lack of achievement. The growth of agnosticism is helping to change this.

A broad statement, perhaps wrong but worth considering.

Bushbred, Interesting comment about Jews and the army.
My father had a Jewish mate in and after the Second world War who was my Godfather .
I only met him once - a nice bloke .

I am not sure whether Dad could have been Godfather to his son or sons .

Secular and Fundamentalists of all religions seem almost worlds apart with the latter causing a lot of grief to anyone who disaggrees with their position .

logic,I don't like the idea of my sons or daughters having to go to the Middle East to help drag Jewish Fundamentalists out of their self made mire .

Antiseptic,

Apologies about Tay-Sachs - I had believed it to be a disorder specific to Jews. However, you conveniently ignored the scientific dna findings.

A little history about “indigenous” Palestinians; and Jews and “dispossession,” which if you doubt, I can supply documented references, title, authority, even page numbers. These would be held in your closest university.

But, Antispectic, you are not really interested in facts ... You apply sophistry, and might I add, extremely badly.

During the British Mandatory period , Brits ignored the unrestricted illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Transjordan and Syria.

So bad was this wholesale, illegal Arab immigration, that in 1930, the Hope Simpson Commission condemned this practice. (John Hope Simpson, Palestine: Report on Immigration, Land Settlement and Development (London, 1930)

Illegal Arab immigrations from elsewhere, witnessed the Arab population increase 120% between 1922 and 1947.

Imagine Australia’s current population going from 20 million (rounded down) to 44 million in twenty-five years.

It took from the end of WWII (and our massive immigration policy) until now, just to double our population; a period of over sixty years.

The Arab complaint they were being displaced was an excuse to continually attack Jewish settlers. This was well known by the British at the time.

Arab attacks against Jewish settlers had nothing to do with nationalism. They never attacked the British.

Indeed, spokesman for Palestinian Arabs, Haj Amin, didn’t seek Britain to grant them independence. Far from it. Instead in a letter to Churchill, 1921, Amin demanded the territory be reunited with Syria and Transjordan.

Hope Simpson reported that Jews were being badly exploited by wealthy Arab landlords in land purchases. The Lewis French survey of 1931 found that only 600 Arabs were landless, yet only 100 accepted Government land offered them. Why?

Jews purchased land from both the mandatory authority and landowners. By 1947
Jews had acquired 45,000 acres from the Mandatory Government, 30,000 acres purchased from various churches, and 387,500 acres purchased from Arabs. By 1947, Jewish land holdings in Palestine amounted to some 463,000 acres.

cont ...

Transjordan’s King Abdullah wrote in his memoirs:

“It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping”
(King Abdullah, My Memoirs Completed (London, 1978), pp.88-89.

I do not support Jewish settlements over the Greenline. Albeit it is not an internationallly recognised border - but an armistice line between Israel and Jordan. Incidentally, it were the Arabs who did not wish the Greenline to be an geo-political border - not the Jews. The UN Security Security Resolution is a joy in semantics - all smoke and mirrors. But then who on earth defines a border based on a colour ?... anyone with a spray-can go out after dark ...

However, Israel’s right to exist in unquestioned. Jews must have a homeland - a nation state; a haven for existence - this is undeniable. History has proven this. Anti-semitism remains a virulent fact of life. Israel gets pride of place in the news to pander to an unpleasant aspect in the community.

Contemporary anti-semitism ... the new racism against Jews.

The University and College Union, UK, set up an academic and cultural boycott of
Israeli Jewish academics, philosophers, thinkers, artists, scientists, teachers and musicians, in 2005. This was a plank in Nazi Germany.

Why pick Israel, why not Russia, China, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, etc. ... indeed Australia - the situation of our indigenous people ... !

The answer: “antisemitism.” This applies also to those who do not believe they are antisemites, have no hatreds against Jews, even have Jews as friends (I love this qualifier ...)

Zionism is Jewish nationalism, no different from other forms of nationalism. Nationalism can lead to racism - as in Australia - but nationalism is not the same as racism

bushbred,

Please get someone to edit your posts before submitting them ...

Danielle, I resent your suggestion that my posts should be edited.

You should be able to tell between my own opinion and what is historical, such as the worry about the illegal Israeli attacks much earlier on Saddam’s Iraq and the recent attack on Syria.

You must know that such attacks must only be sanctioned by a global authority such as the United Nations.
You also should realize that my passages about my home town are of actual experiences of general opinion about Jewish wool buyers, many of whom we dealt with year after year. And surely you must have appreciated my statements about friendly experiences with Aussie Jew boys in the military.

The passages about the Great Library of Alexandria being of great interest to Jews of the time also can be found in most Humanities study manuals. And I stated that during our studies there was talk of possibly the Jewish boy Jesus having asked questions of the wise men who had possibly attended there?

Talking about chips on the shoulder, Danielle, your over- accusationary attitude certainly shows you could easily have one?

Danielle,

You are, perhaps, joking:
“Contemporary anti-semitism ... the new racism against Jews.”

I would suggest “Contemporary new anti-Semitism – the same old-fashioned racism against the Jews”.

Danielle:"you conveniently ignored the scientific dna findings."

Nope. You're simply too busy regurgitating your incredibly long propaganda spiels to read what others write. I pointed out quite specifically where you were wrong in respect of your claim that only Jews suffer from Tay-Sachs and then went on to offer a reason (matrilineal descent) for the DNA findings. Do try to keep up.

Most of your posts are irrelevancies about Arabs, when the topic is the poor behaviour of Israel. I know that Arab states are poorly run and that the Middle East has had a long history of conflict. So what? You constantly try to minimise Israeli actions by reference to Arab actions. It's akin to a bad parent blaming the crying baby for "making me hit it". If you want Israel to be treated as a State worthy of respect, that dishonesty and buck-passing must stop. It's long past time the Israeli's became adults and took responsibility for their own actions.
l gets pride of place in the news to pander to an unpleasant aspect in the community."

The "right" of Israel to exist is not at issue. It already exists, for beter or worse. Your claim is another favoured ploy of Zionist propagandists to try to divert the discussion. I also disagree that "Jews must have a homeland" any more than Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, Buddhists, Hindus, or even Moslems. I bet you know dozens ofJewish people with recent ancestry in Britain, the former USSR, Germany, France, Poland. DNA testing would show these people share far more commonality with the local Gentile populations they were born into than with Jews from other places.

Why should a British person have a need of a Middle Eastern "homeland", regardless of who his mother is?

I am also deeply offended by your constant characterisation of me as "anti-semitic". I am not and your claim is dishonest. Israel gets pride of place in the news because of several factors, none of which is to do with anti-Semitism. I'd list some, but you won't bother reading this anyway.

Antiseptic,

If you are not anti-Semitic, your understanding of issues should be improved even more substantially than my writing skills: “poor behaviour of Israel” if any, based on islamists’ disapproval of a Jewish state’s existence.

bushbred,

You have the all the rights of freedom of speech, etc - that is uncontestable. You state you are a postgrad and then present the following. Then get hysterical when I suggest that you get someone to edit your posts. Indeed, this is not the first one you have submitted this way. Do you know what "edit" means? If English is not your first language then I deeply apologise.

I am sure you have very interesting contributions to make, but clarity of expression is vital.

"One could also question how many Jews hold high positions in our universities when only last night on Foxtel we had the Sky political commentator discussing the Afghanistan problem with who looked as severe as one of our ASIO officials and an Islamic professor from one of our universities, the Muslim academic appearing much more eager to discuss mixing more with the possibly Taliban and even admitting that Western friendliness might be just the old colonial process once again precluding the big imperialist takeover, even suggesting that it was one lurk the Afghans had been able to resist during the British occupation next door in greater India."

MichaelK,

Yes, you are right. However, nowdays, people avoid admitting they are antisemites, by saying they like Jews. They say it is just Zionism they hate.

Antiseptic,

Israel has a duty to protect itself - all its citizens, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze, Bahai, Bedouin, Gypsies, Arabs alike. They are loyal to Israel. A couple of the smaller groups have their headquaters there. If Israel didn't exist they would be persecuted in Arab states to the point of extinction. Druze commonly serve as border police; Bedouin as paratroopers.

cont ...

You state:

"I also disagree that "Jews must have a homeland" any more than Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, Buddhists, Hindus, or even Moslems"

You really are out of touch with reality aren't you. If we follow this logic, all Australians other than indigenous peoples (and even the latter arrived from elsewhere) should return to Europe. My G-d look what we have done to our indigenous peoples ...! Hitler did his best to stamp out 7th Day Adventists and Gypsies. Christians are not permitted in most Arab States. What about the US - even Britain. What about Denmark. Indeed you could make an argument that there should be no homelands for anyone.

Unlike you, I enjoy and cherish the many races, religions and peoples of the world. It would be a dull, colourless world - not really worth living in, if all peoples had to become a single unified, undifferentiated group. Indeed if we all became like you. Perhaps we should all return to our origins in Africa. And never forget, no country has been forged without conflict.

Regarding DNA. I should have realised that you wouldn't have any knowledge of this even at the most basic level. Have you any idea of: DNA markers, chromosones, genotypes, genomics, proteomics. Have you any idea what a haplotype is; mitochondria? I know very little about genetics. However, with the rate of science and its developments if you hope to be considered even slightly educated, you had better start learning ... This is rapidly becoming a most important field in medical science. Also, we will be confronted with monumental ethical issues which society will have to address.

Danielle says "I enjoy and cherish the many races, religions and peoples of the world ".

Is she prepared to fight for their existence ?

I think one of her "monuumental ethical issues" may well be,but not for her of course; can we keep on supporting and protecting indifferent , non army serving Fundamentalist Jews in Israel in what appears at least with the US, an open ended basis ?

I am all for Peace ,but when the US says all the new settlement building is "NOT HELPFULL" I believe them .

Danielle: "people avoid admitting they are antisemites, by saying they like Jews. They say it is just Zionism they hate."

I can't speak for "people", but as for me, I don't "hate" Zionism or Jews. I despise the corrupted thought processes of modern pro-Zionists, which leads to constantly blaming others for one's own faults, but I am quite in awe of the strength of will of the Zionists of the early 20th Century who managed to force Britain to give them a slice of someone else's land to call their own. Modern Israeli leadership is a poor, shattered reflection of their brilliance.

Danielle: "Israel has a duty to protect itself "

The only reason Israel gets away with its disgraceful behaviour is the strong pro-Zionist presence within the US. Successive Israeli governments have used that support to behave abominably in the knowledge they will never be held to account. How many UN resolutions has Israel ignored?

Danielle: "Hitler did his best to stamp out 7th Day Adventists and Gypsies."

Ah, so now we come to the realisation that the holocaust was not exclusively a Jewish experience. Which part of Israel are you prepared to give to the gypsies as their very own? What about here in Oz, are you prepared to hand over some of your land for a "7th Day Adventist homeland"?

Danielle: "Indeed you could make an argument that there should be no homelands for anyone."

You may have noted that all of the examples I gave were, like the Jews, religiously-based groupings, except the gypsies who have been arguably even more victimised historically than the Jews. What makes the Jews deserving of such a "homeland" and the other groups not?

Danielle: "I know very little about genetics."

That's obvious. Most people would regard their lack of knowledge as good reason to keep their mouth shut. I'm sure you've heard the old saying about being thought a fool.

Which Arab States are Christians "not permitted" in?

To Lady Danielle

Must say Danielle, you give reminder of the experience of some of us WW2 veterans who though roughly bush educated had in the early 1970s been allowed after a rapid mental survey to do part-time studies at WAIT, later Curtin University.

As happened we had an American tutor who was rumoured to have been banished from the US during the McCarthy era, and who along with our Aussie David Black, each separately taught us American plus Australian histories the first year, while the American taught us socio-political strategy the second year involving much about the Vietnam War and the ending of the Indonesian Sukarno Era, et al.

With your complaints about my rough and ready style of literary explanation, Danielle, must say that many of us veterans had the same problem and were advised to do Essay-Writing courses with the English department - even though the American tutor had praised us for insight gained from our earlier years, military experience being part of it.

While one of the English tutors found favour with much of our literary expression, even saying that I personally had a natural novelist-style, the other tutor, a lady not long out from the UK, was not happy with much of our styles at all.

As the complaints got back to the social-science sectors, the literary lady unfortunately, had to be sacked mainly because her editing was even eating into many social science theories, which was the reason, Danielle, that I was offended about you suggesting that I get my OLO essays checked.

Please remember, Danielle, that us oldies did not come down in the last shower, and can easily pick up weaknesses not in your own excellent literary-style, but in the way both you and Paull make light of controversial parts of political history.

.

BB - Part Two

Especially so about Mordecai, Danielle, whom we studied deep into, and believe that the silence from America while the honest poor beggar was treated like a criminal - as it was his own leaders who were the real criminals for illegally joining the nuclear rocketry brigade.

Indeed, Danielle, It is our wish that we could have some Global Authority with the power to put any one or any body that has broken strategic laws, Tony Blair and John Howard being branded along with George W Bush, coupled with earlier Israeli leaders over Israel going nuclear coupled with the despicable Mordecai treatment.

From BB - Ain't about to change - of WA - Bestest Aussie State.

Daniella: “However, nowdays, people avoid admitting they are antisemites, by saying they like Jews. They say it is just Zionism they hate” – that is NEW anti-Semitism I had already mentioned above.

As known, “Nourished does not understand a starving one”. Maybe, it could forgive misunderstanding of missiles’ impact falling on Israeli heads.

kartiya jim

I have made my position very clear about settlements over the Greenline. I disapprove of them.

The Arab League recognises the legitimate right of Israel to exist. Not all Muslims wish to see Israel pushed into the sea and all Jews slaughtered. It is fundamentalist/extremist Muslims. Arab States have unsuccessfully tried to rein in these people in - indeed, are concerned that they may start activities in their own countries.

Egypt has a militiarised wall between themselves and Gaza; they do not wish Hamas to infilitrate their country.

Saudi Arabia is building a 900-kilometre wall to keep out, among other groups, jihadists and terrorists. The wall is to be the most high-tech in the world. The final decision for the wall was made following car-bombs exploded in Riyadh. As the wall cuts into parts of Yemen there has been considerable dispute.

We would not knowingly accept militant Muslim groups in Australia.

Perhaps we should be grateful, instead of condemning them, that fundamentalist Jews do not serve in the forces ... Incidentally these Jews are a small minority

Israeli law allows most Arabs, ultra-Orthodox Jews, and females who declare themselves pacifists to be exempted from military service. Not living in Israel, I do not know the feelings of the average Jew towards ultra-Orthodox Jews. I doubt if they have much in common.

Twice in my life in different places and circumstances, I have been at risk of death, indeed an actual target (yet innocent of any crime), for just being who I am. A total of ten years before I had reached twenty-one.

If Israel had existed in the early ‘40’s I would not have lost my father, grandmother - in fact, my entire father’s entire family of over 50 members - in Hitler’s gas-chambers. My Jewish grandfather, an Iron Cross holder, had already died from his injuries.

In late 1939, the Australian government granted my father (an Austrian Jew serving in the French army) a visa to enter this country. This was cancelled when Britain entered the war.

cont ...

My parents (Australian catholic mother), however, were not informed. My father was arrested, sent to a slave camp, then Auschwitz's gas chambers. They had waited in vain for the promised Australian entry papers.

My father, a secular Jew, attended synagogue once a year. He regarded himself, Austrian.

When the Nazis took France, my mother wanted him to convert to Christianity hoping it might save him. He refused, saying that he “would never desert his people”. Ask your Jewish friends what this means.

My mother and I, imprisoned in Nazi POW camps, were selected as exchange POW’s. The SS commandant personally ordered that neither of us must ever return to Europe.

She wanted to stay in Palestine, the British refused this.

On arrival in Australia, eve of 1943, Australian “Security” were waiting for her. She endured a terrible time:

“We don’t like to get rough unless we have to ...”

But, admittedly, not as unpleasant as she experienced under the SS.

The Australian government condemned her a “fifth columnist” - her association with a Austrian Jew. Later, she stated she would have preferred modern surveillance techniques, no matter how intrusive.

In the 1980’s, I obtained records from the Australian archives. A scrawled handwritten sheet, just four lines - to me, my father’s death warrant, written by the Minister of the Interior, Watson, dated July 1941:

“ xxx... German Jew refugee, resident of Paris ... Permit to enter Australia granted shortly before outbreak of war; subsequently cancelled.”

Britain and her territories were not alone. SS St Lewis, a ship of some 100 Jewish refugees, travelled to the US and elsewhere for haven; but returned to Europe with its full compliment - a triumph of propoganda for Hitler.

The other seven years were spent in Malaya during the Communist Terrorist Emergency, I left just before my 21st birthday.

Antispetic, when you say you like Jews (not all are religious) but say: “you musn’t have a homeland” - you are an antisemite. The worst kind.

Historically - and today - virulent antisemitism - often displayed like yours - exists.

kartiya jim

You don't have to fear fundamentalist Jews. They do not wish to convert you, just to be left alone. They follow Jewish teaching which in contrast to Christianity and Islam does not consider it necessary to follow their ways in order to be admitted to heaven. In Jewish teaching all good people will receive divine favours and their beliefs make no difference. No one will be sent to war to protect them.

Antiseptic

The citizens of Israel have been subject to threats of annihilation suicide bombs, rocket attacks for so long. Tell me in your own words what should Israel do to protect its citizens, Arab Christian Muslim Jewish alike, the attackers do not discriminate? I trust you have a better solution than the Israeli generals, please share with us your secret.

What guidance do you have for descendants of the 900,000 or so Jewish refugees who left Arab lands?

If Israel falls what would happen to them as well as the Druze, Baha'i and Samaritans who have found refuge in Israel?

All of the other wise contributers to this discussion are invited to contribute to my questions.

Danielle: "you are an antisemite. The worst kind."

So now you're reduced to insult without even trying to answer my simple questions. I'm very sad that you had such a terrible experience, it makes your prejudice understandable, but it doesn't say anything to the subject of the discussion, which is the bad behaviour of Israel, not Nazi Germany or Australia in the 40s and 50s. I was taught that two wrongs make no right. Do you agree?

logic: "Tell me in your own words what should Israel do to protect its citizens"

Israel and the pro-Zionists it relies on for support internationally make all sorts of claims about Israeli democracy and freedom and so on, yet the behaviour of the Israeli State internationally is that of a rogue that will accept no accountability for its own actions.

Invading other countries, dispatching assassins in helicopters, locking up dissenters without trial, etc are not the actions of a democratic, open society, but of an authoritarian State that believes it can do no wrong.

Proportional response is a concept that has been lost from the Israeli lexicon. Perhaps this will all change when the next generation of leaders emerges and the last of the holocaust survivors dies. If the pro-Zionists with their blind propagandising let it, of course.

Last comment in my last OLO should have read:

Especially so, about Mordecai, Danielle, a problem us socio-political academics were very unhappy about. We finally came to the conclusion that it was the silence from America that caused Mordecai to be virtually given a life sentence, when it was his own leaders whom had broken a law already under protection by the United Nations.

APOLOGIES FROM BUSHBRED

Antiseptic,

By my reasoned assessment, you are an antisemite of the worst kind.

Israel is a committed democracy, quite unlike others, with assurred haven and protection of minorities otherwise stateless and exterminated elsewhere.

My experience - minor compared with others - did not make me prejudiced. But it did make me aware that there is no guaranteed security for minor groups, or even class citizens, even in a democracry. Germany the most intellectually progressive and civilized country in Europe, and a democracy, threw up Hitler. Hitler murdered many Germans, and became a millionaire on sales of Mein Kampf.

When I was at boarding college, I often visited La Perouse during my holidays. An indigenous group lived there and I enjoyed their company greatly - they were intelligent, gentle, kind, and good-humoured.

Recently , I visited a town of 300 people - all white. Previously, the area had been centre of trade for various indigenous groups. In living memory of the older whites, a resident group of over 2,000 indigenous people had lived in the area with sophisticated customary law - young men weren’t permitted to eat certain foods, reserved for small children and the elderly. Only a handful of these indigenous people remain - and not in the town - but shunted off elswehere.

In north-west Australia indigenous peoples had a novel system of water-channel farming; in Victoria, productive eel farming.

What happened to them ...

Australia threw up in horrendous numbers of hideous hansonites. G-d knows where we would be if she had been an orator and charismatic.

Among the boat-people, one person, detained for over 5 years had been an outspoken writer against the murderous regime from which he escaped. Only by constant lobbying by those who knew, saw him released. That was just one individual ...

If you read OLO posters you would see that “isms” are quite alive in Australia; just needing the right person ...

Living in Malaya during the terrorist period, I know the precise definition of terrorism. Hamas are not militants, they are terrorists. The media ignore this.

cont ...

With a step-father in the top brass, I understand legitimate tactics well.

I’ll put fact to your “accusations against Israel”, which apparently deviod of evaluation, you slavishly lap up from a stridently anti-Israel media

“Invading other countries” - Called self defence; pre-emptive strikes (both legitimate)

“dispatching assassins in helicopters” - Actualy called “targetted killings”. The British made this an art form , the US have done it, even the Dutch military, in the last two years, have been given legal right to do this. The time the Israeli’s committed a “targetted killing” - it was debated within Israel’s Supreme Court first.

“locking up dissenters without trial” - Israel has freedom of speech - they do not gaol dissenters.

Where is the “Doctrine of Proportionate Response” recorded as an article of war?

“Dis/proportional response” is not in any military lexicon of which I am aware. I know it appeared in the TV series “West Wing"; the media picked up and ran with it ALWAYS when condemning Israel.

“Proportionate response” has been the cause millions of deaths and attrocities in Rwanda, Sierra Leonne, the Congo and Darfur. Any intervention - a “disproportionate” response.

In Malaya the Brits hit back as to render the enemy impotent/dead - no discussion of how many terrorists, how much ordnance, etc. No tit for tat!. They dropped bombs on terrorist nests with less than a handful of terrorists.

Both the uneven anti-Israel voting record by the United Nations Human Rights Commission ... (AND despite the admonition of three successive United Nations Secretaries- General); and uneven anti-Israel votes from United Nations General Assembly; resort to the term “disproportionate response” in condemning Israel.

Ignore that UNHRC and UNGA include “some of the most oppressive and failed nation-states in the world.”

Read International Law Journals regarding “Use of Force and Self-Defence”

Jus ad Bellum
Jus in Bello
Combat Manuals: The SAS and Elite Forces (Australia)
“International Law and the Use of Force by States”
“International Law and the Use of Force”
“Harvard International Law Journal”
“War, Aggression and Self-Defence”
“Self-Defense against the Use of Force in International Law”

Danielle,

Your family have seen a very nasty side of human nature and power.

I am interested in your view of the wikipedia entry on " turn the other cheek ".

Would this work in Israel ?

Disproportionate Response worked very well in Tasmania and on Mainland Australia against Aboriginal People.

I think the majority of the word believes ,rightly or wrongly, that "Something has to give" .

Antiseptic

You are so blind, but you share this with others. You see only the Palestinian side and hear only their arguments. Your criticisms of Israel are just so wrong. The population of Israel, descendants of Middle Eastern Jewish refugees, Druze, Samaritans, Baha'i refugees from Darfur all deserve some respect, these are all refugees from the Middle East sheltering in Israel.

But you refuse to consider this, prepared to believe only the Palestinian propaganda, much loved by the new left, rather than learn anything about Israel's problems. Remember that Muslims have also been killed by the hundreds of Hamas and Hezbollah rockets. Remember too the Bali bombing, the fanatics responsible for this atrocity are tarred with the same brush as the opponents of Israel.

Israel and all its inhabitants, Jewish, Christian, Baha'i, moderate Muslims alike all face a mad group dedicated to their destruction, and they know what they face if Israel goes under. Get to know some of these people, ask them.

Danielle, proportionality in response is a measure of how well a State manages its power. The old saying is "you don't use a sledgehammer to crack a nut". Israel would use a demolition ball to crack a sesame seed and then try to claim that the sesame seed attacked it or that it was really a poppy seed in disguise. Either way, it deserved to be crushed, naturally...

As I keep having to tell you, this thread is about the poor behaviour of the Israeli State, not Holland or Britain or Australia, both of which countries are not famous for the assassination of people they don't like or for "preemptive strikes "(invasion is the normal term), or for systematically terrorising a populace because there happen to be some people opposed to the State within that populace. They may have other faults, which you could discuss in a thread about them, if that moves you.

I'll tell you what, you continue to believe the Israel is a perfect shining light of democracy and fair play that can do no wrong if that's what makes you happy. Make sure you say hello to the fairies while you're at the bottom of the garden, won't you?

Logic, do try to get a tune up for your propaganda machine. It seems to be producing an output with no input.

Antiseptic

Your response revealed your patent ignorance of terminology - and indeed Britain’s history of “targetted killings”. But I have supplied a small reference for reading ...

” ... poor behaviour of Israel ...”

Israel, like other countries has “rules of engagement” which are stictly enforced.
Read just a couple of the references I provided and then demonstrate any point where Israel differs from International law in regards Jus Bellum. Also, under International law of war, Israel has full right to defend itself.

You would adopt “tit for tat”? Unfortunately, war and conflict is much more serious and complicted than that. Obviously you have no knowledge about engagement, nor conduct of war.

Just an example: An order: “take a ridge and hold it” . Whatever fire-power and manpower, necesssary, is used to achieve this objective - nothing more, nothing less (hopefully). Manpower and ordnance are costly on a number of levels and never wasted. There is accountability of objective achieved, deaths/casualties and ordnance used. A “bad call” - and conflict can continue much longer, with greater casualties on both sides, and expensive loss in ordnance. Any idea of the costs of the latter?

Where do you get your information about Israel? From the yellow press with its “proportionate/disporportionate response” - is it ... was it ... will it be ...? And their complete lack knowledge about conflict - let alone international codes of war.

IMPORTANTLY ...

We are not even discussing conventional conflict and war ...

The media refer to Hamas as militants, they are not, they are terrorists. Hamas terrorists murder and inflict unbelieveable horrors on their own people. They do not conduct their activities under any code.

Hamas imbed themselves in civilian populations - use the population as shields.
On occasion, they televised from where they were sending rockets. Seeing this, the Israeli’s immediately aborted defensive action.

Israel doesn’t attack Palestinian schools or hospitals. Hamas shell Israeli schools and hospitals. At what point do you find Hamas’ action ethical or justifiable? Based on your views, you apparently do so.

cont ....

Reported from Mohammed Daraghmeh, “Palestinian Vigilante Killings on the Rise,” AP, (Oct. 6, 2005): Palestinians killing other Palestinians. By October of the year 2005, 151 dead; more than in clashes with Israeli troops defending their country against terrorism.

So horrific has been Hamas’ terrorism waged against their own people that Palestinians have fled. In 2007 the high numbers of migrations of Palestinians particularly to Europe, the US and Canada, even Israel - resulted in Palestinian religious authorities issuing a fatwa, June of the same year - forbidding Palestinian Muslims emigration - unless, temporarily, for educational purposes.

Hamas’ terrorism of their own: In the year 2007 by June, in Gaza alone, more than 10,000 had applied to leave that area.

Incidentally, Hamas have a state-of-the-art disinformation propoganda machine from which street-press journalists indiscriminately accept copy, without bothering to check and verify facts elswehere.

Terrorists have no code of conduct ... Terrorism is unutterably horrific.

People like you, probably having had nothing more stressful in your life than losing your car-keys, sit back in armchairs, and pontificate about things they know absolutely nothing about.

I related a special “Kodak” moment of one particular act of terrorism I witnessed in Malaya: Read: Thursday April 2008 12:01:58 / 12:07:44 AM
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7214&page=0

Those who have read my posts know my sympathies toward Palestinian; Palestinians have been exploited, used and terrorised by their supposed leaders. Arafat made $billions from keeping them in dire poverty - and deflecting accountability by raging against Israel. Now we have a seemingly impotent Abbas and Hamas killers. With right leadership, Palestine could be celebrating its 60th birthday as a modern Islamic state living in harmony and good-will alongside Israel. $Billions upon billions have been poured into Palestinian territory. Isn’t it about time that donor states demand accountability? Or is there some other reason for not doing so?

Danielle ,
I understand your "Billions upon Billions" have also continued to pour into the Israeli Army by the US .

Food for one Army and Guns for the Other.

One throws rocks, the other uses armoured bulldozers.

Not a good look Danielle.

Danielle, the subject is Israel, not Hamas. If you wish to discuss the poor behaviour of Hamas, feel free to start a thread on the topic. The fact is that the Israeli State, the most powerful in the region, routinely behaves in a manner that would be condemned by civilised countries if it was any other state other than Israel. The reason for that is the Zionist guilt industry. The holocaust was over 3 generations ago. The Israeli State has been in existence for nearly 3 generations. How long are you going to try to use a terrible atrocity to justify more atrocities?

Killing civilians is wrong, whether it is Hamas or Israel doing it. Israel does it more and with less reason, given the enormous power of that state. It does so with clear alternatives, which means it is a deliberate policy. That is a disgrace, no matter how you choose to slice it.

Antiseptic and kartiya jim

You both need to read Palestinian propaganda with some skepticism, and you both need a grip on reality. Long before the declaration of the State of Israel, sections of the Muslim world were attempting to cleanse Palestine of Jews and making life hard for all non-Muslims. This is not Zionist cant but fact.

Hamas has in its charter the annihilation of the Jewish state, look it up on the web. They also allow a TV station to promote the glories of martyrdom on children's TV. Look it up on U-tube. This is not acceptable behaviour, it is a cult of evil in anyone's language. If you dismiss this I will wonder about your sincerity.

This is a declaration of war in anyones language. Yet you two wish Israel to take a Chamberlain like approach to those who would destroy it. You ask for a proportionate response, what is that? Saudi Arabia does not allow Churches to be built and offers to finance fundamentalist courses in our Universities. Iran stones women to death, puts unacceptable restrictions on Jews in the country and finances terrorism.

Do you people ignore history? Did the allies show a disproportionate response in WW2. The Islamists have made it clear that their goal is world domination, do they have to shout into your ears to make you realise? Israel is simply the first step in the establishment of a new Caliphate, don't be in denial, don't be fools.

Look a bit further in your reading. Just because it is written by an Israeli or an American does not make it false. Those two countries have done far more for our civilization than the Palestinians have.

Maybe we should forget much of the smaller controversies and look more towards the results of the coming US election?

Report in the West Australian of a suggestion by John McCain that US troops may be needed to stay in Iraq for 100 years, leaves us with gloomy feelings about rising US imperialism in the Middle East?

Though even much less years, the gloom is especially so since most of the US public is against the Iraq occupation, Americans are unlikely to elect for the first time, either a white Western female nor a non-white.

Looking back, with the finale to Stalinist Russla with wars like Vietnam though not won by the West turning out virtually friendly to the West, gave hope that non-Westerners would in the end decide that just a touch of our Western way of life is preferred. .

So what has proven successful in Vietnam as well as in Malaysia, and after all not much bitterness left towards the West in India, and even China coming our way under capitalism, how did we manage to invite so much hate towards us from ME Islam?

Many social scientists unfortunately tend to blame a nuclear Israel for much of the Middle East tension right now . Such made worse, because the US backs little Israel to violate UN rules by illegal attacks on part erected suspected nuclear installations as on Iraq back in the early 1980s and on Syria just recently.

American leaders like Bush and Cheney have been far too ready to attack also, as proven by the illegal attack on Iraq, and the recent threats about punishing Iran before the end of the Bush regime.

It has also been suggested that America has been so ready to attack not only because of her volatile strike capacity, but because she has never learnt the lesson of being attacked and occupied herself. It is thus felt that leaders like Bush and Cheney must enjoy war, no doubt feeling a delicious thrill as they swept into Iraq over five years ago

Bushbred Part Two

Furthermore, the US military mess in Iraq has been interestingly calmed down by putting on the US payroll most of Saddam’s former Sunni frontline troops who naturally had been the base of the deadly Sunni insurgent attacks going on for years in Iraq.
Called The Awakening, Bush has even promised the former Sunni insurgents that they can even renew a branch of the Saddamite Baath Party if they perform well enough.

To be sure Iran will not stand a long imperialistic US occupation of Iraq, and one wonders whether Russia and China and even India will back Iran?

Indeed, it may be the only means to prevent Iran being totally annihilated by the US with Israeli nuclear aid.

After all the US has still never forgotten how Iran kicked out the American-planted Shah, held the US Embassy captive for more than a year, and to top it all even defeated a US backed Iraq despite losing nearly a million men after eight deadly years.

To some measure Iran, the former Persia, though it seems a declared enemy right now, could still be admired for her capacity to hold her own?

Antispetic,

You state:

“Killing civilians ... Israel does it more and with less reason, given the enormous power of that state. It does so with clear alternatives, which means it is a deliberate policy.”

Absolute Bosh!

Also, what do you mean by “civilians”? Provide substantiated evidence for your accusations.

Your statement is “up there” with - Jews being responsible for the Black Death - and Jews being cannibals.

Israel never deliberately targets civilians. NEVER.

However, before responding, read a couple of the references I have provided. You patently know nothing about International Jus Bellum. One of the main principles is that soldiers are clearly distinct from civilians by the uniforms they wear. Historically, countries take a very dim view of enemies in civilian garb. In your reading, make particular note of subversives ... Remember also, that suicide-bombers and terrorists both conceal themselves as civilians, and among civilians.

Is Israel expected to emulate Chamberlain, who on his deathbed bemoaned:

“ ... if only he hadn’t lied to me ...!”

Israel has a duty to protect all its citizens.

Do you count those "civilians," who blow themselves up, as "civilians"; or call those "civilians," whom the Israeli's prevent from blowing themselves up.

Israel never deliberately targets civilians. NEVER.

Antiseptic, Get your facts right ... especially check them with other sources.

You are a propogandist’s delight. Give you a “catch-cry” and off you would go trotting out any ludicrous statement: such as : “The Moon is made of Green Cheese”

Or, perhaps more relevant to you:

“The Moon-landing is a Lie! It was Mocked up in a Hanger!”.

Indeed, perhaps you believe this ..