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Positive Muslim integration is possible : Comments
By Imran Lum, published 4/5/2007Issues Deliberation Australia, far from turning ugly, ended up being a real eye opener for both Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
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Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 6 May 2007 6:55:57 PM
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As far as I know there has been only one group of immigrants who completely refused to adopt in any way the local Australian culture - the British.
Posted by logic, Sunday, 6 May 2007 7:38:28 PM
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"ultimately, these underlying prejudices between Muslim and non-Muslim Australians must be tackled through community projects. Ones that work at a grassroots level with schools, service providers and welfare organisations are likely to be most effective, and extra funding for such programs would be a wise social investment."
This is so vitally important to note. See Dr Amanda Wise's Ashfield Community Harmony Project: http://www.crsi.mq.edu.au/research/harmony.htm http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/nonenglish-signs-a-barrier-for-many/2006/10/27/1161749313595.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1 And here's some homework for the assimilationists on this board; read the following: http://www.newmatilda.com/home/articledetail.asp?ArticleID=1791 Posted by strayan, Sunday, 6 May 2007 10:22:45 PM
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Democrat,
Are you seriously suggesting that we need more laws that curb our free speech? We already have laws against slander and incitement to violence. Did you not see the farce that was played out when Victoria passed laws on religious vilification? The main people who were dragged through the courts were those attempting to engage in meaningful discussion. It stirred up antagonism between different communities. There were no winners except, of course, the lawyers who made plenty. The main problem with the Victorian laws was that they drew no distinction between race and religion. The two are not the same thing. Race, your ancestry, and your skin colour are not things you can choose or change. Religion is different. Tomorrow I could get out of bed and change my religion to anything I wanted. Religion is a thing of the mind, heart and conscience. (Note: when you were talking about inter-group marriage, did you confuse race and religion? For if the man who married the mufti’s daughter had to convert to Islam before marrying her, then your argument falls down). While I am no fan of Alan Jones and those of his ilk, one of the greatest things about being Australian is the freedom to speak our mind. Let’s try and solve our differences that way, not in the courts. I don’t think your suggestions were practical. I invite a response. Posted by Mick V, Sunday, 6 May 2007 11:08:01 PM
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When I married my wife I may have in broad terms married into a family but, I actually married an individual. Not a family. Not a culture. Not a race. And not a religion. We have people from many differing nations, cultures and religions migrating to Australia. We do not have cultures or religions or nations migrating to Australia. There are only a very minority of Australian Muslims who want to be identified as Islamic first and foremost. There are others, as I introduced in an earlier post, who may be Muslim by religious practise but, are Australian and are proud of their cultural heritage and do not want these marginalized by a few Islamic extremist whose sole focus is on dominating any discussion on religious matters. Politicizing religion is the first step toward over riding the laws regarding the separation of State and religion. If any Muslim has a problem finding employment perhaps they should try applying for their next job as an Australian. Where I work we hire Australians. Some may be Tamil, Indian, Singaporean, Lebanese, Turkish, Pakistani, etc. and all may practise Islam. We didn't hire on any of these people as examples of their nationality, culture, or religion. We hired them because they are Australians who came to us wanting to contribute to the welfare of Australians regardless of race, religion, or cultural representation. Those who want or demand exclusivity or special considerations with in Australia will always find their road difficult and the people unwilling to accept them on those grounds.
Posted by aqvarivs, Monday, 7 May 2007 4:59:59 AM
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GYM FISH.... I noted with interest your comments as follows: (regarding religious fanatics)
"The outcome then depends on the believer's interpretation of god's word, and the entailed punishment for disobedience." In order to properly understand the Christian concept of Law and Grace, and in particular the idea of 'punishment' for those erring from Gods Word, I recommend a careful reading of Pauls letter to the Romans. In that letter, he systematically outlines the human dilemna and goes step by step to show that mankind is alienated from God, first the Jew, then the Gentile. Once he has established that 'all are alienated' he then points to the solution, but that is where the critical point arises. "Not by Law, but by Grace" He spends considerable time developing this theme, and it gives greater clarity to how 'fair dinkum' Christians should approach the specific issue of "erring from Gods word". The other important point to consider is that "Christian" discipline is for Christians, not for non Christians. In its severest form, it amounts to social ostracization for stubbornly refusing to depart from publically known sin. (e.g. immorality) But no one would be "disciplined" for not attending a meeting. Islam is different. It is a political entity, with a side salad of 'spirituality'. So the primary sanction on its followers is Law, rather than Grace. "If anyone leaves his Islamic faith, Kill him" is a rather terminal 'legal' constraint. It is the growth of that value system by stealth or stride that I oppose with all that it in me. I know it cannot be by 'opposing' alone, which is why I also point to Christ in many of my posts. The best 'prevention' is by 'proclamation' of a better alternative. "I came that they might have life, and have it in abundance" Jesus.(John 10:10) Posted by BOAZ_David, Monday, 7 May 2007 6:17:15 AM
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It was Socrates who said Out with the Gods and in with the Good, adding the premise that if we reason/meditate deep enough we will find the Spirit of Goodness within ourselves.
It was also the English philosopher, John Locke who said, as a liberal Christian, that faith without reason is a faith misguided.
To a philosopher, the two above quotes are somewhat alike, the word reason being uppermost in each.