aqvarivs.

“I can only imagine what is going through the minds of Muslims born and raised in Australia.”

In case you missed it my point was that you engage in stereotyping. You seem to think you can read the minds of all the Muslims born and raised in Australia.

As I have said in previous posts I have no problem with people criticising Islam as long as they base their criticism on facts and logic. I often criticise Islam myself and there is plenty to criticise about Islam, and Christianity and every other religion for that matter. However every time I try to have a serious discussion with someone on this site I get this crap thrown in my face that all Muslims are violent, all Muslims are brain washed, blah, blah, blah. I don’t see why it should be so difficult for people to stick to facts and logic instead most of the half baked stuff you get on this site about Muslims.

Let’s just look at the standards you yourself use to try to prove that Muslims are bad news. Your biggest proof was that your mate told you what he’d heard in a Mosque. Well that’s verifiable proof isn’t it? After all, I’m sure that you can prove that your mate is a reliable witness? And if your mate told you he met Elvis at the Mosque I guess we should believe that too? Why don’t we all use the things that our mates tell us to prove our points of view. Well my mate reckons your mate’s an idiot. So there’s positive proof that you are wrong using your standard of proof. Now if you think that’s bad you should hear what my other mate said about you.

If you ever want to have a real discussion on Islam or Christianity or whatever and base it on facts and logic and not things your mates told you they heard then I’m in, but we all know that day will never come.

why does everything have to be so complicated and everything seems to revolve around religion. I personally have no religion but that doesn't make me a bad person. I don't care what religion a person is I believe there is good and bad in all races and if we didn't pussyfoot around and have different rules for different races, intergration with all races would be so much easier.

I was once told I would make a good christian. I asked why and was told " because I help people" I wonder if that same person would say the same thing to my muslim friend, who would bend over backwards to help anyone?
maybe I am way off topic or just very naive but a greek is a human being, an aboriginal is a human being, a muslim is a human being and a religion is just that.....a religion...it is not a breathing living human being.

Moderates talking to moderates is not going to solve anything except some minor integration on the margins between Muslims and the mainstream. But so long as our Muslim population is allowed to rapidly outgrow the mainstream, we can expect nothing but trouble. The signs of a dangerously regressive culture are here and overseas for all to see. Expect these hardcore elements to flourish under their ever-increasing comfort zone. In the end, moderates on both sides of the divide will be bundled out of the way along with their token efforts to integrate. The moderate Muslims are unable to control the regressive Muslims. And it will be left to right-wing Aussies to deal with the extremists.

Look at Turkey the other day where ONE MILLION rallied at the threat of a regressive Islamic party taking control - and Turkey is 99% MUSLIM. The army is now the only thing that will save them - but for how long, because the regressive Muslim population is outbreeding the secular Muslims. Wake up Australia, Turkey is our future. Stop Muslim immigration, stop the Muslim population growth within Australia, or radically transform Islam in Australia into an invisible personal pacifist faith, or hope our army comes to save us, or do nothing and leave it to future generations to get on their knees and submit to Allah. There is no easy road here - all choices are going to be painful for some. "Softly, softly" will not work.

Callie
The childish naivity expressed in your post is a major part of the problem. Religion is, by definition, not an opinion but a (largely irrational) belief, and the rejection of other religions is entailed in that belief. An opinion is of the form (for example) 'A Holden is better than a Ford'. The holder of such an opinion will simply buy a Holden rather than a Ford. Expressed as a religious belief, the opinion now becomes' God has decreed that a Holden is better than a Ford, therefore anyone who buys a Ford is disobeying the word of God'
The outcome then depends on the believer's interpretation of god's word, and the entailed punishment for disobedience. Ford owners are then by god's decree stripped of their human rights. If that punishment is believed to call for a jihad - or a crusade - or socio/economic sanctions against Ford owners, then so be it. The religious fanatic unquestionably accepts tne (totally unsubstantiated) notion that there is an all powerful force which will punish and destroy any who do not comply with that fanatic's own assesment of the individual compliance demanded by that all powerful force. As a result we see the obscene carnage visited upon the world not by any god, but by the people who claim belief in a particular 'god' at a particular time. See my earlier posting.

GYM FISH, you are saying that my thinking is a major part of the problem but you then go on to say about religion and fanatical beliefs, therefore, if everyone had no religion and looked upon each and every person as a human being, there would be NO PROBLEM.

I know that it is not as simple as that but I would like to think it is.

For an intellectual debate about improving relations between Muslims and other faiths or secularists, agnostics or atheists – the above comments border on the irresponsible and ignorant. The academic arguments forwarded by Lum are practical and worthy of reasonable consideration – not that I have noticed much in the way of practical considerations in the debate so far.
Let’s look at his arguments:
“It appears Muslims are knocking loudly on the door of mainstream Australia but the problem is many of us are too scared to open it. Because opening the doors would mean having to work next to Muslims, live next to Muslims, or God forbid, even allow our daughters to marry Muslims.”
The response was that Muslims would not accept the reverse – when clearly this is not the case. A significant number of Muslims are marrying non-Muslims – even the controversial ‘Mufti’ has an Aussie son-in-law, as do most of the immigrant Muslim community.
Lum’s next argument that “The UK, United States, Canada, South Africa and New Zealand all have legislation which prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion, whereas here in Australia, it is not unlawful under federal law to discriminate against someone, or vilify them, on the basis of their religion” is a sound one. Justice often comes down to laws especially when some shock jocks can get away with incendiary statements such as:

“We only have ourselves to blame that twenty years later nothing has changed in this community, and nothing will until we take the gloves off and make life a collective hell for these bastards and their followers” followed by “Beware, Australia – the enemy lives amongst us already” – Alan Jones on April 27 2005 (is anyone surprised at the violence that later erupted by his listeners?)

Lum’s suggestion that laws that adequately operate against racial discrimination should also apply to religious discrimination is a logical step – and one that works both ways, removing any extremist Islamist threat to other religions