Hello everyone, sorry for the delay in writing a second round of replies.

* Yourjust jealous: "Ex-Christian........hmmmmmmmm, hate to be a bearer of bad news for ya buddy, but there is 'no such thing as an ex-christian' You never truly believed in the first placed, so you never were, thus not being now."
Why didn't you write the Bible passage where is says that? C'mon, you should know, all good evangelists are taught it. "You never truly believed in the first place" - I sincerely and deeply wish that were the case.

* obozo: I am interested in other people's experiences and ideas. May I ask you a question? If only one Australian cricketer was a Christian, would you still be a 'believer'? If so, why does it make any difference how many of them are Christians? If the whole Australian cricket team were Christians, would that make your faith stronger? If so, why?

* Alan Grey: I said, 'Belief is not a case of what is real or not, it's just belief'. This means - just because you believe something, that doesn't make it real.

* Michael4Love: Michael, could you please describe how you became a 'Christian'? And could you, or any other Christian here, please explain the meaning of 'Original Sin'?

* To all: Could any Christian here please explain why they call themselves one?

* BOAZ_David: "I said or meant.. come to Jesus, to Christ. The Biblical one. How do you find/meet Him ? Simple.. read the gospels... you will see 4 views of our Lords life, and varying accounts of his ministry, teaching and actions."
I have read the 'gospels' many times, and taught from them many times. So what? May I ask you a question? It's one that many people asked me that I could never answer, no matter how much I tried, so maybe you can help. That question is - 'What happens to all the people around the world from different cultures who never heard of Jesus? Do they go to Hell?'
Can you, or any other loving Christians here, answer that question?

Sorry Alan Grey, your solipsistic sophistry doesn't cut it with me any more.

>>Beliefs are things we believe. Why do we believe them? Because we think they are true. (By definition, you cannot believe something you think is false) What do we mean by 'true'? That is accurately reflects reality.<<

Fair enough. In short, you are saying "beliefs are things we believe reflect reality"

Then you say

>>Trying to seperate belief from reality is ridiculous and nonsensical.<<

But you have yourself performed exactly this act in the previous sentences.

Beliefs are things we believe reflect reality - remember?

What it does not say is "what we believe IS the truth". That would be arrogant, suggesting that because I believe it, it must be true.

Instead, it says "I believe this to be true, but accept that others may have a different belief to mine."

Now let us look again at the charge you made against Evan using this as "evidence"

>>Evan... implicitly tries to put his own beliefs on a priveledged level, where he can call other beliefs 'absurd' whilst protecting himself and his own from criticism.<<

Au contraire, mon ami, he explicitly accepts that there is room in this world for multiple beliefs.

Which I have to say, is more than you can offer.

Explicitly or implicitly.

Michael4Love: Michael, could you please describe how you became a 'Christian'? And could you, or any other Christian here, please explain the meaning of 'Original Sin'?

Hi Evan Gillham,

Here's my testimony.

I was born and raised as a nominal christian just like many christians. My parents are also nominal christians. I used to deceive my parents, though they couldn't find it. I used to watch vulgar movies etc. But, My parents & My teachers say I am a good boy.
I know my heart, how wicked it was with very bad thougts. Thankfully, I haven't put those thoughts into action.

I used to attend church sometimes. As long as I hear the delightful songs, the stories, the wonderful words of Jesus, I have a sense of peace in my heart. But at the same time, someone is reminding me the lustful movies which i saw.

One Sunday, a pagan came to our church and shared his testimony. He said in the quest of peace, he visited all his religious places and called the names of his gods and goddesses. But, no one answered him. So, he decided to end his life and while he was going on the way, he saw this verse :

" Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest

Those words made him to enter that church. He met a preacher there and the preacher showed him the verses of the Bible. He knelt down and said this prayer:

" Lord Jesus, I am a sinner. I have heard that you came into the world and died for the remission of my sins and shed your blood. Clean my heart with your blood. I have heard that you not only died for me, but you rose again on the third day. Come into my heart and lead me. I pray this in the name of Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. "

The pagan said, after he said that prayer and reached his hotel room, he was jumping with joy. He said: " From that day, I have been a conqueror of sin. "

This testimony of him made me to think. And I did the same. I prayed. I received His Spirit. I am now living a life of joy unspeakable. I am overcoming those lusts, them I have been a slave to. From that day, I have experienced many miracles in my life. I saw answers to my prayers. My father was a diabetes patient. His kidneys failed and Doctors said that they cant cure him. Our church prayed for him; I prayed. The next morning My father completely recovered. Doctors have no answers for that. I can tell you many more.

Evan. Thanks for clarifying. (Although you have given me a great opportunity to argue with pericles, which is always fun) This statement is a lot less problematic than the other. In fact, I agree with you that believing something does not make it true, I even teach this when I teach logic and critical reasoning to classes. (Of course, we still get down to foundational issues even with this statement).

Yet beliefs are about what is true, they attempt to connect with reality. Your article clearly tried to make this connection, yet in your response to my comments, you tried to use this statement as some sort of rejoinder. This wasn't helpful or useful at all, unless of course you are merely spouting irrelevant rhetoric and didn't want to evaluate your own beliefs in the same way you were evaluating others.

So how do we evaluate beliefs? We may not be able to gain 100% provable certainly of a belief, but we do have methods for telling whether an argument for a belief is a good or bad one, whether we can trust the argument points us towards something that might be true. Yours was not good and so I pointed out that your logic was wrong and therefore, it cannot be trusted. That hasn't changed with any response you have given.

The point remains...just because you have had bad experiences with some churches or religions does not make them all false. So please...give us a reason why you think they are all false?

Pericles, you should probably stop using words when you don't know what they mean.

I have never said that belief is equivalant to reality, which is what you seem to be implying. They may not be equivalant, but that does not mean they are not related. What you have been saying is nonsense.

It is self-evidence that people may have different beliefs, but this is irrelevant except in point that it means that two people with contradictory views cannot both be right? Why? Because reality doesn't allow it. The Christian God cannot both exist and not-exist. It just isn't possible. In fact, it must be one or the other. But in any event, the beliefs relate to reality and simply arguing that belief has nothing to do with reality is nonsense. Evan has not simply said 'I believe this' but instead tried to link his belief to the real world via his experiences.

Your defense of Evan saying "he explicitly accepts that there is room in this world for multiple beliefs" is a red herring. It has nothing to do with the point I have been making. Of course, I have to wonder if it was true when he labels other peoples beliefs as 'absurd' and 'damaging' beliefs that affect 'mental health'. So much for room for multiple beliefs.