Great piece, now watch the GB descend.

Kenny...ur RIGHT.... Here I am.. descending.... hovering.... flapping my ranting wings.... outraged, stupified, horrified,buffuddled, how DARE he show the true nature of some things which are VERY loosely called 'Christianity'..... I mean.. so many people believe this tripe...

and thats the problem.

The 'Christianity' the author describes was first noted in Pauls letter to the Corinthians. They had this 'thing' about tongues.... etc.. but at least I read nothing of the moral depravity in the Authors group which Paul had to address among the Corinthians.

The group in which the author found himself, are what I would describe as 'counterfiet'.... it looks.. sounds.. says the right words.. (?) mentions God, Christ, Holy Spirit etc.. is enthusiastic and TOTALLY UNBALANCED.

It is clear that many people are very gullable, and ignorant of the Bible, looking for some quick spiritual fix, and a God who will make all things bright and beautiful for their personal agenda.

The psychology is skilful.

1/ Create a populist vigorous group of highly emotional people.
2/ Divide them between 'spirit filled' and 'unbaptized' (in the Spirit) creating a 'huh? how come I'm left out' syndrome.
3/ Make wild promises which pander to the selfishness in us... like 'God wants you to be RICH'....etc.

Do all this and you end up with the group the author went to.

All I can say, is that if one's Christianity is based on that, its well past time to actually encounter the REAL Jesus in the Gospels and Letters of the New Testament.

When I was a young Christian in my mid 20s, I was reading the Bible each day. I found that groups like this were so transparent when subjected to the focus of scripture.

To the author, I have this to say... READ THE BIBLE for crying out loud, and don't judge Christ by such idiotic unbalanced groups as the one you encountered.

Nice article.

There are groups out there who indulge in aggressive, simplistic proselytizing. They feel they are justified in their methods because in their eyes, they are saving people from damnation in hell.

These are the groups that give the other Christians a bad name, and turn the rest off us off listening to them.

The other day I was passed a counterfeit $50 bill. The horror.

Obviously all money is worthless and fake.

Evan

if you are reading these comments, I refer you to your namesake...and request that you read about him.

The result of his conversion is summed up as follows:

"By the end of the last week over 60 responded. By the end of the second week Evan had already started on a whirl-wind tour of the South Wales valleys with his team of 5 girl singers and within a year or so 100,000 converts were said to be added to the Welsh Church"

You need to examine the social conditions before and after his ministry and the Welsh Revival, to see just how the Lord truly used this young man who gave all ...to Him.

http://www.welshrevival.com/

http://www.welshrevival.com/lang-en/1904history.htm

Hope you come home soon.

Nice article Evan,

Pitty it took you so long to discover this simple truth about xian (and other) religions. Humans are social - the need to belong is greater than intellect if we let it be.

Alan,
All counterfeit is bad. All religions are counterfeit.

"I feel quite ashamed sometimes for having put psychological pressure on others to believe or continue believing the Christian “way”, during the time I was involved in Christian groups. It's an incredibly selfish thing to do."

Great going Evan. You've seen the light and jumped ship. No problems. However obviously unashamed about putting phychological pressure on others to disbelieve. You sound like a reformed smoker.

I grew up in a fundamentalist cult too Evan. Christian fundamentalism is on the rise again. You only have to enter a search ‘Christian fundamentalism and the war in Iraq’.Also check out www.raptureready.com for a nasty scare. These nutters believe that ‘the end is nigh’ They have ‘holy land tours’ where these sick people sing their jolly songs, pray and praise the Lord, speak in tongues, and then have a preacher remind them of the prophecy in revelations about the ‘end time events’ which include the rapture of all the spirit baptized tongue babbling fundamentalists who will be ‘caught up by Jesus in the sky’ and so will not have to suffer Armageddon. They go to Israel to view where the conflagration will take place! What a sick religion.

Don’t buy Christians telling you to give the ‘real Christianity’ another chance Evan. I don’t buy a belief system that began with a father allowing a bunch of other people to torture and kill his son as the only way that daddy would forgive the rest of the world their sins; otherwise the devil would get them. Oh PLEASE fetch me the bucket. It is a vile disgusting concept. Wherever Christianity has been a state religion, and/or had social power, it has maimed killed and destroyed anyone who did not agree with it. I worry that as history seems to be circular and not linear that this will happen again within Western culture.
I only feel sorry for the people who try to defend it. There are a lot of good kind people with values and ethics who also call themselves Christians (and muslims) I know that they in turn feel sorry for a ‘backslider’ like me. For myself I am relieved to have escaped the evil clutches of any kind of Christianity, it is all part of a continuum. You know, you don’t have to have any religion to live a life with ethics.

Hey Joe karachi

Of course if someone has a strong opinion they would like to convince others! So you think Evan could have told his tale values free? We don't live in an objective world, we live in a subjective one, the personal is the political. You accusing Evan of not being afraid to 'impose' his ideas on others is the same as saying, 'Hey Louise just cos' youve been raped doesn't mean you have the right to try to turn everyone else off the idea' Come on, think what you are saying.

I agree with much of the article and with most posts so far - God created the world, created Adam and then Eve and had a wonderful relationship with them; Adam named all the beautiful things God created including "Eve".

Unfortunately, Adam and Eve fell into sin, therefore all their descendants are born with sin and are alienated from God.

But God in His Loving Grace has sent His Son Jesus to save us and restore that broken relationship - so whoever believes in Jesus will be saved and will have eternal life with Him as it was first intended.

And how does the world try to repay God? They invent religions...

I am sorry that the author encountered (if he really did) such counterfeits. His total experience amounts to nothing that remotely resembles true Christianity.

There is no redemption without true repentance. So these clowns invite unsuspecting prospects to join their cults without going through true confession and surrender to Jesus' Lordship, etc...

But yes they (cults and false religions) exist and it's about time they are put to the test, for their own good and for the good of the real Christian massage, and the many victims that later fall by the wayside.

It is estimated that true Bible-believing, born-again, disciples of Jesus, may amount to less than 5% of total nominal "Christian" population in Australia.

And BTW the world is truly no much older than 13,000 years...

Communist states in russia and china were hijacked by dictators. Obviously all communism is evil.

I am getting more and more convinced that religion is analogous to a tool. It is neither inherently good or evil. It just depends on how it is used by its practisioners.

Though I am an atheist myself, I can see how many people find great solace in the ideas of an afterlife and reincarnation, and also the moral compass provided by religious teachings. It seems to me though that most religious problems arise when people try to impose their rules and interpretations upon others. At that point it becomes a means of control rather than a way to make sense of the world around us.

"When I woke up this morning, I had no idea what I should talk about in church today,” he began. “So I prayed to God about it. Then God spoke to me very clearly".

When you pray to God you know you're pretty normal. It's when he answers that you need to worry.

Narcissist, "All counterfeit is bad. All religions are counterfeit."

...prove it.

May be an article could be written by an ex athiest asking why we have to put up with the ever changing 'science' theories on the origins of the earth. We could ask why in the name of rights the athiest/agnostics allow the murder of unborn children.

I agree that their are many charlotans out there in the religous world although the same goes for the science world, the medical profession and
any other organisation on earth.

Surely anyone smart enough to write this article is also smart enough to see that the teachings and writings of Jesus are second to no one who has ever walked this planet.

There's no quantitative difference between religions, Evans experience is the same as most sane people confronted by religion, yet seeing beyond the fearful cloak monotheists try to hide behind. I grew up in a deeply religious family, also took up the cloth and see only normality in Evans experience, that's way it is in all religious circles. They say otherwise, but their words don't relate to their working expression.

Can you imagine the bereft boaz or coach, approaching anyone other than the way they do here. No chance, like snakes in the grass, they slither away when challenged and return with more illusional but destructive venom, hoping they can infect others to their nothingness.

Look at any religious program on TV, you'll see the depth of fear they try to instil, that's if you can stand it for more than 30 seconds. Monotheists are champing at the bit for their Armageddon to appear, its their only hope. Without it happening, they'll continue to look like fools, as science and the future tears more and more holes in the fabric of their evil delusions.

All that's left will be a tattered illusion, bloodied with the destroyed peoples and cultures of the world. Not a pretty sight, but one that demonstrates the true result of the so called outpourings of love, from the followers of Yahweh, god of war and destruction.

Good article Evan and some truthful replies from others, seeing beyond the crumbling façade of monotheism

Hahaha, Coach. I wondered how long it would take for you to find your way here to point out that one form of Christianity may be wrong, but yours isn't even a religion. Cause all religion's evil unless it's done your way right?

And Coach, if the world is only 13,000 years old... what's up with dinosaurs? Were they in the garden of eden too, or is it a conspiracy.

Sorry. Those comments weren't constructive, but I really couldn't resist.

Coach
I thought you were going alright (and I am an atheist) until you said the earth is truly only around 13 000 years old. So when did the dinousars fit in that time frame? Oh sorry, the dinosaurs don't get mentioned in the Bible so they never happened. Get real, the earth is many millions of years old, long predating the arrival of humans.

Boaz, thanks for the Welsh Revival links. Fascinating. A perfect illustration of what Evan described in his piece.

Group dynamics with a charismatic spruiker can have a significant impact on ordinary folk. Oswald Mosley in the 1930s UK similarly relied on fiery rhetoric to ignite his audiences into a form of low-level hysteria, with the behaviour of a few inciting a me-too reaction in the targetted bunnies.

There are other similarities.

"The Revival storm that hit the hills and valleys of Wales in the dying months of 1904 soon became a hurricane... The public excitement of the Revival had died down by 1906 – Evan Roberts went to Leicester to recuperate"

Mosley's impact lasted a little longer, although he spent his "recuperation" in Brixton Prison as a guest of His Majesty.

The ability to motivate people to do things against their nature is a powerful talent. The methods employed have become more sophisticated over the years, but the results are consistent. Some reject the coercion immediately; the bulk take the message on board so long as there is continuing external stimulus; while a small percentage change their lives in line with the new experience. These tend to be people who are already searching for some "meaning" in their lives, and the message is internalized at a fundamental and emotional level.

"In asking one elderly Revival convert some years ago as to whether the Revival stopped in 1906, she answered – its still burning within my heart – it’s never been extinguished – it had burned for over 70 years." [The Welsh Revival]

"Our views and ideas are based on the concepts of personal liberty, social justice, national independence and racial integrity. We call this philosophy: RACIAL NATIONALISM." [No emphasis added. Verbatim from the current UK National Front web site]

Most people who were exposed to Evan Roberts or Oswald Mosley quickly reverted to their previous mentally balanced state, some didn't. This is perfectly normal crowd behaviour, which in itself signifies nothing about the message being delivered - it can equally be the love of God or the hatred of foreigners.

Dear Evan

Thank you for a very honest and realistic article.

I have been a mental health nurse since 1978. The "sickest" people I have nursed have been those who have been drawn into the Pentecostal, Mormon, Seventh Day Adventist, The Bretheren - and other similar off shoots of Christianity.

In particular, people with the illness of schizophrenia tend to be the most vulnerable. Such wonderful people are usually hearing persecutory voices that other people do not hear. The last thing that they need is a group who talk in "tongues" and about removing demons - as is the case with the Pentecostals.

Contact with the above organisations, from my extensive experience, always compounds the persons mental illness. Very sad stuff I can assure you.

Cheers
Kay

What's wrong with moulding the minds of our youth towards God? Young minds are supple, desiring of knowledge and open to religious inflection. The spiritual need is requisite, as necessary as food, air or water. This human world of ours would be inconceivable without the practical existence of a religious belief. The youth must be instilled with the knowledge that best serves our time, our time being one of war with Islam; the primary entry point for this schooling is through our education system.

Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ... we need believing people.

I fundamentally disagree with Evan on this. How else can we expect to produce the future soldiers of God?

Jasper
http://blackbilebox.blogspot.com/

Agree with BD's first post. Lots of fakers out there. I recommend http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2006/08/24/law-and-gospel-getting-the-right-mix/ . Beautifully summarises the pitfalls of a seeker-sensitive Gospel rather than a Biblical one.

Noah- first of all the ark was huge. Second of all there weren't nearly as many species back then, and the Bible doesn't mention the word species, it mentions "kind" which Bible-believing scientists interpret as genus. 2 of every genus in a massive ark- possible.

Dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible but the English word for dinosaur was made up after the English translation of the Bible, so you're more likely to see the word "behemoth" or "leviathan".

Fossil record dates are untrustworthy. Yes, dinosaurs existed, but not enough evidence to work out if it was millions of years ago or 10, 000's of years ago. Natural disasters can change the rate of decay of fossils.

Why did Jesus need to die? Yes, there is a God, and the bit we know about Him is He's all loving and that's why He killed His Son and is sending a bunch of people to hell. Um... what?

The Bible also talks about a righteous (good) law at work. It's a law that hates evil and loves good. Its one in which evil culminates in death. Death is the opposite of life, life is defined as knowing God, i.e. intimacy with God. All goodness originally springs from God. Rejecting good is rejecting God and leads to spiritual death. (cont.)

(cont.)

The idea of Jesus dying in our place is to satisfy the moral law that exists. Would God be moral if he suspended morality? would a judge be compassionate by sparing a convicted rapist? is that compassionate for the rape victim?

You see to punish the person who sinned and to forgive the guilty is rather impossible at the same time. When u sin u hurt God and/or something/someone He made. So he wants justice. At the same time, He loves u, so He wants mercy and a second chance for u.

God sent His only Son to the earth to live as a human and be treated by humans in the way that we (symbollically) treat God every day when we sin- by "killing" Him. We are responsible for Christ's death, not God (and certainly not just one particular ethnic group- everybody!)

The thing is, "even while we were still sinners, Christ died for us". We might have spat in his face, pushed the crown of thorns on his head, hated and reviled Him for preaching the truth, but He still loves us. Because He has taken that death that justly follows sin onto Himself, it doesn't have to fall on us. It's up to us. Do you take the death you deserve in order for justice to be met, or do you allow the Judge's mercy, the Son's love, to take that death away and allow you to be in an intimate relationship with the One your soul was created to love?

You might not believe all of the above, but hopefully I've served to clarify at least some of the more puzzling elements of the Gospel.

Thankyou very much for the responses to my article.

I actually described three different 'groups', the first fully blown Pentecostal, the second of which didn't believe in all the tongues and miracles stuff, but did think the world was only 9,000 years old, etc. The third provided the background for my childhood and teenage learning - a very strict, military-style traditionalist school which mixed 'Christian values' with 'war/regimental values'. At that time I was exposed to a range of other denominations too.

*BOAZ_David: I found that basically all Christian groups say 'That other church, they don't teach the right thing. Come to our church, we teach the right thing'. Regarding the 'Welsh Revival', the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' thing and associated miracles, speaking in tongues, etc. was quite prominent.

*TurnRightThenLeft: That's exactly right. First convince people that they are doomed and damned, then offer them a solution to that problem. It's exactly the technique many sales people employ - 'You need this product'.

*Alan Grey: I don't think your counterfeit money analogy really works here. Belief is not a case of what is real or not, it's just belief.

*Narcissist: My humble opinion is that organised religion replaces that feeling of belonging that being part of a tribe used to provide for people.

*Joe Karachi: I think if I was writing an article specifically intended to convince others not to believe in Christianity it would look different. I am interested in discussion and other people's opinions and experiences. But maybe you're right, perhaps I should have written an article about smoking instead.

*Lorese: 'You know, you don't have to have any religion to live a life with ethics.' I think that's absolutely right.

*coach: I have described my experiences accurately. I used to read the bible and pray every day - why doesn't that resemble true Christianity?

*gusi: Many, if not most people who become Christians are looking for comfort, hope and love. Nothing wrong with that of course.

*bennie: The current President of the USA believes that God speaks to him. Should we be worried?

Continued from above:

*runner: 'Surely anyone smart enough to write this article is also smart enough to see that the teachings and writings of Jesus are second to no one who has ever walked this planet.' I am smart enough to know that there are no writings authored by Jesus Christ.

*The alchemist: Thankyou for your comments. I would also like to write an article about science.

*rossco: 'Get real, the earth is many millions of years old, long predating the arrival of humans.' About 6 billion years or so apparently. And only in the last couple of years some x-ray telescopes have been able to see into the centre of the Milky Way galaxy for the first time ever, helping astrophysicists to conclude that there is indeed a supermassive black hole there.

*Pericles: 'These tend to be people who are already searching for some "meaning" in their lives, and the message is internalized at a fundamental and emotional level.' I agree that's the usual pattern. Again though I would stress that it is not 'wrong' for people to feel that way in the first place.

*kalweb: Thankyou for your comments Kay. I have a great respect for those who work in mental health, as it must be very demanding at times. I hope other people listen to what you have to say.

*Jasper BBB: Your comments on your blogsite are very very hateful against women. How did you get to be that way?

*YngNLuvnIt: 'Do you take the death you deserve in order for justice to be met,..' We all have do die sometime. My opinion is that these types of feelings (ie. heavy guilt) germinate during childhood.

........

"Every man is the lord of a realm beside which the earthly empire of the Czar is but a petty state, a hummock left by the ice." - Henry D. Thoreau.

Thanks for the response Evan, posters look forward to follow ups from writers. Sadly, few reply.

“Jasper BBB:”, your blog is disgusting and reflects all the sickness afflicting our society. Your a wonderful example of the true monotheist. Like your ilk, your stupid enough to show how despotic you are.

YngNLuvnIt: . “Second of all there weren't nearly as many species back then,”

Really, where did a the rest pop up from, another creation day. Using the dimensions of the ark, tell me how it was built, how they fitted 2 of the millions of species in, feed them, dispose of their waste, keep them calm, keep carnivorous separate, collect them from around the world. Then return them all to their indigenous countries, then get back to the ME without navigation, sails or power, excellent logic.

“You might not believe all of the above, but hopefully I've served to clarify at least some of the more puzzling elements of the Gospel.”

There's nothing puzzling about the gospel, its fictional rubbish. What you say just verifies how really insane you people are and how dangerous you are to the future mental state of all children.

Religion should be banned from all schools and from being forced upon children, monotheists are causing so much trouble in the world, do we need a future of children so confused between the reality they see around them, and the blatant lies put to them by the followers of god. No wonder mental illness is growing at such a rate in children, when we read comments by Jasper, coach and BD in their desperation to make their fallacies sound plausible

There's truth in the supposition the world's only been around for 10000 years or so. When understanding for the unevolved, being able to comprehend anything above infantile stupidity, is beyond them. So a past beyond yesterday and a future beyond today, just doesn't compute in unevolved monotheists.

Evan, I've had a similar response to my former life as a christain from some of the posters - "you can't really have been a real christain if you now rejest it".

The problem they refuse to face is that I and others were not nominal pew warmers. I'd done the 4 spirtual law stuff along with pretty much the whole non-charismatic evangelical experience (and enough exploration of that to be convinced that the fruit is rotten).
If I was not a "real" christian it was not thrpugh an unwillingness on my part (other than the old "I believe, help my unbelief thing").

I think that can't be acknowledged by some because if those things don't work then how can anybody have an assurance of salvation. They want to be able to tell people that if you do the repentance thing and take Jesus as Lord then you will be saved so anybody and some of us don't fit in with their "reality" so they have to deny our history.

I'd agree with view that the issues you describe cross a broad range of christain churches to varying degrees, it's not really a matter of that other mob getting it wrong.

R0bert

Evan

I am not easily impressed, however, I am indeed impressed with the depth and thought of your original article.

But where I am truly inspired is with your detailed and reflective response to all the posters, it takes time - and grace (a rare quality).

Thank you.

There is room for religion but no space for dogma.

Evan, Thanks for taking the time to reply. However, when you say
"I don't think your counterfeit money analogy really works here. Belief is not a case of what is real or not, it's just belief." you are committing any number of logical fallacies.

In the first instance you are begging the question, by simply assuming that all belief is not related to reality, which is the question at hand.

Secondly, the statement is self-refuting. That is, it must be false. This can be easily high-lighted by asking you the question. "Do you really believe that?" If you do belive that, then your belief is also not a case of what is real or not and we can happily dismiss it as irrelevant. If you don't believe that, then it is also irrelevant.

Thirdly, your entire article seems to be premised on how your own experiences do not match reality...why else would you complain "One of the most damaging perhaps is the belief that there is a constant war between demons and angels raging around us all the time. I've seen kids being told that a demon is sitting just behind them or on their shoulder. What effect might that have on their mental health?" If you really thought it wasn't about being "real or not", then this statement is non-sensical. You seem to be implying that this belief is false and so it is damaging to mental health.

I appreciate that you have taken time to express your views, but if you want people to think you are more rational now than when you believed in whatever brand of Christianity you believed in, you will have to avoid the rhetorical tricks and faulty logic.

Dear Evan
clearly I should have anticipated that remark "come to OUR Church for the truth".....
That was not at all my point mate.
I said or meant.. come to Jesus, to Christ. The Biblical one. How do you find/meet Him ? Simple.. read the gospels... you will see 4 views of our Lords life, and varying accounts of his ministry, teaching and actions.

You don't need 'my' Church to get you that far or to see the plain meaning of the text. It might be advantageous to spend time with a mature Christian of ANY denomination who truly reflects the Grace that Scout referred to.

Don't allow yourself to be put off by the counterfiet, that would be stupidity. Search...and u will find.

Lorese, imposing your understanding of how God should or should not act, is a tad arrogant :) Your statements are very naive. Pls read 1st Corinthians 15 in full.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&version=31

Pericles.
Well pointed out that there were a number of dimensions to the Welsh revival. You gave far too much attention to the peripheral, and also suggested that the tonges phenomenon which occurred in it were spurious. This may or may not have been the case. True Tongues is a real spiritual gift, and there are documented cases and many testimonies of its occurrence today, sadly, it is the easiest gift to imitate and abuse, and falsify in the name of short term spectacular impressiveness. Welcome to Evans experience. I've not experienced that gift but have experienced healing..another legitimate gift of the Spirit.

To attribute the overall momentum of the Welsh or any major evangelical awakening to nothing more than mass hysteria or simply 'Mosely like' group dynamics is to miss the mark entirely.

If you look at social conditions prior to and after, irrespective of how short lived the 'bubbly' aspects were, you will find they were of lasting and redeeming social value, based on the spiritual change in the hearts of those touched by it.

Egillham, indeed there is nothing wrong with becoming a Christian and looking for comfort, hope and love.

The problems arise when we are forcing our religous ideas on others. It seems that to many would like to usurp Gods role in deciding who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

Gus

It is childish and dishonourable to expect someone else to pay your debts.This is precisely the expectation of those who seek forgivness through the merits of Jesus Christ.

No-one other than yourself can forgive you your sin and this occurs when you reverse your behaviour.

Evan you have written a beauty of an article.

BOAZ-David

RE your comment “Lorese, imposing your understanding of how God should or should not act, is a tad arrogant :) Your statements are very naive. Pls read 1st Corinthians 15 in full.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=15&version=31”

It is of little use referring me to the bible to prove your point although I have read the thing from cover to cover and studied it for many years. It is clear that you believe in the god of the bible by faith. I don’t. I just believe it is an interesting historical book written by men; some of whom claimed the right to define god and therefore to control other peoples lives by doing so (now you could call that arrogant!) I also find it hilarious that you accuse me of arrogance and naivety for challenging your concept of god, even though I did not address you directly. In my humble opinion I believe I have the right (as does anyone) to question the concepts presented in a literary/philosophical/historical product of my culture that claims to be absolute truth; that is to say people such as you claim it is absolute truth. You need to learn to be less threatened by the opinions of others, then you might not need to rely on insults to underscore your point.

To Alan Grey

Its fun to do logic 101 isn’t it Alan? Good on you, throw a spanner in the works, muddy the waters, accuse Evan of not making sense even though you are not doing too well yourself, but it sure sounds clever (to some) See you in class next week.

Lorese, it's also interesting that BD and others have the arrogance to reject the claims of other gods.

BD has the arrogance to reject the claims of Allah, all the Hindu, Greek, Norse, Roman, Egytian gods etc. It appears that many christians consider it arrogance to examine the claims about their god to see if they make sense but have either done so to other gods or dismissed their claims out of hand.

To have accepted the claims of one god without question while rejecting the claims of all other gods speaks of a fairly high degree of arrogance on their part.

R0bert

Dear Lorese
dismissing the Bible as "some people claiming the right to define God and thereby control other peoples lives" probably tells us more about your own perhaps regrettable experience with a beaurocratic church than the scriptures themselves ?
Pauls testimony in 1Cor15 is hardly that. If you see it there, would you mind sharing with me just where and how it fits your description ?

Paul is not speaking about some imaginary experience or event. He is speaking about nothing less than the resurrection of Jesus, and his own encounter with the risen Christ.

Portraying this as some 'power trip' to control others hardly accords with the actual evidence before us.

I suggested that your approach is a bit arrogant in this sense... Those closest to the events have faithfully recorded their testimony and are most qualified to speak about such matters. But then you who are far removed from the events, decide you know better :) ... see my point ?

If Paul was speaking about 'crop circles' I might have a few doubts, but his words have the ring of truth about them.
The central thrust of Scripture is God reaching out and calling fallen humanity back into fellowship with Him.

Robert.... the 'other gods' you describe are faint and distorted echo's and abhorations of truth. This should be clear to you from your own study of the Scriptures, in spite of your current predicament of denial.
Cheers all

Ex-Christian........hmmmmmmmm, hate to be a bearer of bad news for ya buddy, but there is "no such thing as an ex-christian" You never truly believed in the first placed, so you never were, thus not being now.

I totally agree with you "Yourjust jealous", unyielding, unquestioning faith is the only indicator of true devotion; a measure of those that will be saved by God. Because faith is harder to shake than knowledge, love succumbs less to change than respect.

We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past few years.

Jasper
Family First
http://blackbilebox.blogspot.com/

Yourjust jealous, so you deny the gospel as preached in most evangelical churches. You are claiming that a person can sincerly repent of their sins, accept Jesus as Lord and Saviour, get baptised etc and still not be a christian. Note I'm not just talking about outward actions but a full blown desire.

See BD's earlier post about the authority of those who were closest to the situation to observe it before responding with an assumption that I and other posters were not sincere about those beliefs.

R0bert

jasper BBB,
You're having us on,right? You're really a member of The Chaser, aren't you, waiting for us to all foam at the mouth in self righteous horror at your posts and your - ahem - blog, you are, aren't you?
Great article, Evan. I come from a family with no religion for generations ( once were jews and methodists), we've had one divorce and that was amicable and the co-parenting equitable and effective. We're close, philanthropic and kind to one another and others and we've not missed believing in a God one bit, not for four generations. I listen to the religious with interest but that's all, I just don't get what they get so hot and bothered about. I have no problem with them believing, feel no need to judge or convert them, so why are they so determined to judge, condemn and, if they can, convert me?

Lorese
I guess you don't really care about logic. Thats fine. I have come to expect it from many people these days. Your entire post to me addressed nothing I said and was merely an immature attempt to dismiss what I said without argument.

It appears you have not even taken logic 101. Otherwise you would understand that making an argument and having a discussion involves dealing with the point at hand and not making stupid little comments.

If you have a problem with anything I said, then how about you tell me what the problem is with what particular thing I said, and then support your assertion by telling my why there is a problem.

Boaz

I find no more or less ring of truth in Paul’s words than I do in hearing the testimony of people who claim to have met aliens near crop circles. It is still up to me to decide what I believe. You have obviously decided to believe the reported experience of a man written 2000 years ago. Here is your comment to me; [ “ But then you who are far removed from the events, decide you know better :) ... see my point ?”] You too Boaz, are far removed from the events!....see my point?

You need to understand that I do not care what you believe. I have no desire or emotional investment in convincing you of anything. You however as a Christian, would dearly love to convert me as this is what your Christ has charged you to do.

I think it is possible that many strange things, so far outside of human experience are true. There may even be a ‘master mind’ who designed the universe. I suspect not, but who knows? Or it may be that we humans have a common consciousness that is more complex than all of us can imagine, and that we can tap into at times as some people claim, who knows? A man named Paul probably did have an experience on the road to Damascus. It was probably high time he had a serious mental and emotional crisis brought on by his guilt at his bloody job of killing Christians for the Romans. But do I accept he met the risen Christ? No, but I have no reason to doubt that he believed he did, but then many people believe many things that others find weird, whacky, unbelievable, or just outside their experience.

The difference between us Boaz is you claim to know. I don’t for sure. But I can say I have definitely decided not to believe in the religion described as Christianity that is based on a man necessarily being tortured to death on a Roman cross. It just doesn’t have ‘the ring of truth’ for me.

Hi Robert

These ‘real’ Christians are amazing aren’t they? Just because you and I and others like us have made a choice to no longer believe in Christianity, they tell us we can’t have been sincere in the first place and they accuse us of arrogance! When people are that blinded by faith they are desperate to defend it at all costs; even their own sense of what is fair and logical. I do know as I have been there. The current Christians want it both ways, or should I say all ways. Only their particular brand is right, anything else is justified away by some kind of hoodwinking by other ‘bad’ Christians, and any ‘former’ Christian, can’t have been the right kind of one in the first place, thus denying any former Christian the right to have an opinion or any knowledge about something they experienced in their own lives! Geez, fair go.

Hi everyone

Quick! Put Jasper BBB out of his misery by going to his blog just the once! You’ll never want to read his messages of hate twice, (if you are a decent person and I think most of us are) I don’t think he believes the rubbish he posts, he just writes whatever he thinks will be controversial enough to get people to check out his blog. Actually Jasper! There is a job going that might suit you, the Christians are looking for the antichrist. You should apply for the job and keep everyone happy….you get to cause a lot of death, destruction and mayhem…(maybe even burnings at the stake considering you are calling for burnings) and end up dead in the end. Boaz, you’d be better using your energy on Jasper…or maybe Jasper is trying to ‘do a chaser’ as Ena said. Though I doubt it, his blog seems a bit sickly serious. Good points by the way Ena

"Christianity that is based on a man necessarily being tortured to death on a Roman cross. It just doesn’t have ‘the ring of truth’ for me."

Without pain, without sacrifice we would have nothing. It has a ring of truthiness to me. God knew this, and God showed us that through the torture of his only son. Because of man's mental independence, and thus impudence, there was no other way to express this fact.

Alan Grey, shame on you.

>>the statement is self-refuting. That is, it must be false. This can be easily high-lighted by asking you the question. "Do you really believe that?" If you do belive that, then your belief is also not a case of what is real or not and we can happily dismiss it as irrelevant. If you don't believe that, then it is also irrelevant<<

This is verbal manipulation, nothing more.

Along the lines of that old chestnut "when did you stop beating your wife?", or "everything I say is a lie."

A belief remains a belief, totally separated from "reality" by the simple fact that it is not reality, but a belief.

They are two entirely different concepts, as Evan so clearly states, "Belief is not a case of what is real or not, it's just belief"

Your attempt to prove that belief is self contradictory by comparing it with reality is a bit like saying that Sydney does not exist because it is not Melbourne.

If you properly parse your statement above, what you are left with is the statement that "belief is irrelevant"

What you really mean of course is that "what you believe is irrelevant, compared to what I believe". But you couldn't come out and say that because it would sound arrogant, wouldn't it?

Boaz, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I "gave far too much attention to the peripheral" in my observations on the Welsh Revival.

(I'm not sure either about your reference to "tongues" - I certainly didn't mention them.)

>>To attribute the overall momentum of the Welsh or any major evangelical awakening to nothing more than mass hysteria or simply 'Mosely like' group dynamics is to miss the mark entirely.<<

In what way does it miss the mark? In both cases, a gifted rhetorician fired up a community to do stuff that they wouldn't have done before. In both cases the effect was short-lived, testifying to the vacuity of the message itself.

In both cases there was a small but identifiable residual effect, where even today a little old lady will continue to bear witness (or whatever the appropriate phrase might be) to the message of Evan, while in the murkier depths of British Fascism there still exist those who consider Mosely a hero, and his detractors, traitors.

>>f you look at social conditions prior to and after... you will find they were of lasting and redeeming social value, based on the spiritual change in the hearts of those touched by it.<<

Your evidence for this is....?

Hi Evan,

I am a Christian. I believe in the Words of Jesus Christ.

I believe Bible is a guide for me.

I have experienced in my life 'the Truth'. I have seen with my own eyes, people who got healed by Prayer.

If you say that is false, then it's ok. But, you can't kill my Testimony, My Witness, My facts.. Can you?

Shame on you pericles. You're smarter than that.

Evan's comments are self-refuting nonsense. It implicitly tries to put his own beliefs on a priveledged level, where he can call other beliefs 'absurd' whilst protecting himself and his own from criticism.

Beliefs are things we believe. Why do we believe them? Because we think they are true. (By definition, you cannot believe something you think is false) What do we mean by 'true'? That is accurately reflects reality.

Trying to seperate belief from reality is ridiculous and nonsensical. That you can't see that bodes badly for our education system.

FYI, the 'when did you stop beating your wife' thing isn't self-referential, and 'everything I say is a lie' is obviously false. Both attempt to force you into a false dichotomy, and both can easily be escaped by showing there is an alternative answer to the dichotomy proposed. There is no such escape for the statement 'belief is not a case of what is real or not'? Especially when Evan so clearly was talking about reality. It isn't possible as even your own belief shows that. Which belief? Where you said 'A belief remains a belief, totally separated from "reality" by the simple fact that it is not reality, but a belief.'. That is a belief. Belief's can be true or false, BECAUSE they are beliefs ABOUT reality. Just as your statement is.

May be Lorese and all christian-haters (if they r aussies) hate Australian cricketers too coz

Adam Gilchrist : a devout christian : Partner of World Vision
Brett Lee : Salvation Army
Matthew Hayden , Justin Langer, Simon Katich etc., ... professed christians
Even Ricky Ponting got influenced by his devout 'christian' wife.

I wonder in thier drivel of hate, they support Pakistan or India over Australia.

Hello everyone, sorry for the delay in writing a second round of replies.

* Yourjust jealous: "Ex-Christian........hmmmmmmmm, hate to be a bearer of bad news for ya buddy, but there is 'no such thing as an ex-christian' You never truly believed in the first placed, so you never were, thus not being now."
Why didn't you write the Bible passage where is says that? C'mon, you should know, all good evangelists are taught it. "You never truly believed in the first place" - I sincerely and deeply wish that were the case.

* obozo: I am interested in other people's experiences and ideas. May I ask you a question? If only one Australian cricketer was a Christian, would you still be a 'believer'? If so, why does it make any difference how many of them are Christians? If the whole Australian cricket team were Christians, would that make your faith stronger? If so, why?

* Alan Grey: I said, 'Belief is not a case of what is real or not, it's just belief'. This means - just because you believe something, that doesn't make it real.

* Michael4Love: Michael, could you please describe how you became a 'Christian'? And could you, or any other Christian here, please explain the meaning of 'Original Sin'?

* To all: Could any Christian here please explain why they call themselves one?

* BOAZ_David: "I said or meant.. come to Jesus, to Christ. The Biblical one. How do you find/meet Him ? Simple.. read the gospels... you will see 4 views of our Lords life, and varying accounts of his ministry, teaching and actions."
I have read the 'gospels' many times, and taught from them many times. So what? May I ask you a question? It's one that many people asked me that I could never answer, no matter how much I tried, so maybe you can help. That question is - 'What happens to all the people around the world from different cultures who never heard of Jesus? Do they go to Hell?'
Can you, or any other loving Christians here, answer that question?

Sorry Alan Grey, your solipsistic sophistry doesn't cut it with me any more.

>>Beliefs are things we believe. Why do we believe them? Because we think they are true. (By definition, you cannot believe something you think is false) What do we mean by 'true'? That is accurately reflects reality.<<

Fair enough. In short, you are saying "beliefs are things we believe reflect reality"

Then you say

>>Trying to seperate belief from reality is ridiculous and nonsensical.<<

But you have yourself performed exactly this act in the previous sentences.

Beliefs are things we believe reflect reality - remember?

What it does not say is "what we believe IS the truth". That would be arrogant, suggesting that because I believe it, it must be true.

Instead, it says "I believe this to be true, but accept that others may have a different belief to mine."

Now let us look again at the charge you made against Evan using this as "evidence"

>>Evan... implicitly tries to put his own beliefs on a priveledged level, where he can call other beliefs 'absurd' whilst protecting himself and his own from criticism.<<

Au contraire, mon ami, he explicitly accepts that there is room in this world for multiple beliefs.

Which I have to say, is more than you can offer.

Explicitly or implicitly.

Michael4Love: Michael, could you please describe how you became a 'Christian'? And could you, or any other Christian here, please explain the meaning of 'Original Sin'?

Hi Evan Gillham,

Here's my testimony.

I was born and raised as a nominal christian just like many christians. My parents are also nominal christians. I used to deceive my parents, though they couldn't find it. I used to watch vulgar movies etc. But, My parents & My teachers say I am a good boy.
I know my heart, how wicked it was with very bad thougts. Thankfully, I haven't put those thoughts into action.

I used to attend church sometimes. As long as I hear the delightful songs, the stories, the wonderful words of Jesus, I have a sense of peace in my heart. But at the same time, someone is reminding me the lustful movies which i saw.

One Sunday, a pagan came to our church and shared his testimony. He said in the quest of peace, he visited all his religious places and called the names of his gods and goddesses. But, no one answered him. So, he decided to end his life and while he was going on the way, he saw this verse :

" Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest

Those words made him to enter that church. He met a preacher there and the preacher showed him the verses of the Bible. He knelt down and said this prayer:

" Lord Jesus, I am a sinner. I have heard that you came into the world and died for the remission of my sins and shed your blood. Clean my heart with your blood. I have heard that you not only died for me, but you rose again on the third day. Come into my heart and lead me. I pray this in the name of Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. "

The pagan said, after he said that prayer and reached his hotel room, he was jumping with joy. He said: " From that day, I have been a conqueror of sin. "

This testimony of him made me to think. And I did the same. I prayed. I received His Spirit. I am now living a life of joy unspeakable. I am overcoming those lusts, them I have been a slave to. From that day, I have experienced many miracles in my life. I saw answers to my prayers. My father was a diabetes patient. His kidneys failed and Doctors said that they cant cure him. Our church prayed for him; I prayed. The next morning My father completely recovered. Doctors have no answers for that. I can tell you many more.

Evan. Thanks for clarifying. (Although you have given me a great opportunity to argue with pericles, which is always fun) This statement is a lot less problematic than the other. In fact, I agree with you that believing something does not make it true, I even teach this when I teach logic and critical reasoning to classes. (Of course, we still get down to foundational issues even with this statement).

Yet beliefs are about what is true, they attempt to connect with reality. Your article clearly tried to make this connection, yet in your response to my comments, you tried to use this statement as some sort of rejoinder. This wasn't helpful or useful at all, unless of course you are merely spouting irrelevant rhetoric and didn't want to evaluate your own beliefs in the same way you were evaluating others.

So how do we evaluate beliefs? We may not be able to gain 100% provable certainly of a belief, but we do have methods for telling whether an argument for a belief is a good or bad one, whether we can trust the argument points us towards something that might be true. Yours was not good and so I pointed out that your logic was wrong and therefore, it cannot be trusted. That hasn't changed with any response you have given.

The point remains...just because you have had bad experiences with some churches or religions does not make them all false. So please...give us a reason why you think they are all false?

Pericles, you should probably stop using words when you don't know what they mean.

I have never said that belief is equivalant to reality, which is what you seem to be implying. They may not be equivalant, but that does not mean they are not related. What you have been saying is nonsense.

It is self-evidence that people may have different beliefs, but this is irrelevant except in point that it means that two people with contradictory views cannot both be right? Why? Because reality doesn't allow it. The Christian God cannot both exist and not-exist. It just isn't possible. In fact, it must be one or the other. But in any event, the beliefs relate to reality and simply arguing that belief has nothing to do with reality is nonsense. Evan has not simply said 'I believe this' but instead tried to link his belief to the real world via his experiences.

Your defense of Evan saying "he explicitly accepts that there is room in this world for multiple beliefs" is a red herring. It has nothing to do with the point I have been making. Of course, I have to wonder if it was true when he labels other peoples beliefs as 'absurd' and 'damaging' beliefs that affect 'mental health'. So much for room for multiple beliefs.

egillham, now that you have known those cricketers and their beliefs, do you hate them? are those cricketers sick idiots deprived of intelligence? are they sub-human ? are they fools?
what do you think of them?

obozo, maybe you should have a read of the article and subsequent posts. I've not noticed anything there about hating all christains (maybe you could have a look at Proverbs 12:17).

It really does not matter how many cricketers are christains, I don't get what your hang up on that is.

The author has taken the effort to share his experience with parts of the christain church. There are some important lessons to be learned here if anybody cares and you want to obsess about cricketers.

Maybe a read of Exodus 20:3-4 and a look to see if cricket is mentioned in there somewhere.

R0bert

Alan Grey, I know logic is a difficult concept for you to grasp, but it would help us all if you gave it a shot now and then.

Not to mention consistency.

>>I have never said that belief is equivalant to reality, which is what you seem to be implying<<

But you did say, in a previous post:

>>Trying to seperate belief from reality is ridiculous and nonsensical.<<

Which is it to be, Alan?

>>The Christian God cannot both exist and not-exist. It just isn't possible<<

True, but irrelevant to the argument. Believing in the existence of a Christian God is just one of many beliefs - for the sake of argument, let us assume there are a hundred. Given that the existence of none of them can be tested scientifically, the starting odds of any of them being the one that exists is 100-1. Plus, of course, the possibility that none of them actually has the story right, lengthening the odds even further.

Belief is, I'm afraid, a totally different concept to facts, truth or reality.

Your comment about Evan is also wide of the mark.

>>Of course, I have to wonder if it was true when he labels other peoples beliefs as 'absurd' and 'damaging' beliefs that affect 'mental health'. So much for room for multiple beliefs<<

OK, let's try this one. You believe that war is bad, I believe that war is good. Would not you allow yourself to label mine as 'absurd' and 'damaging' beliefs that affect 'mental health'?

Robert, I have seen these cool words used in this thread : 'sick', 'nutters', : What a sick religion. Have you seen them? If not, read from the first post. I've noticed the hate. True, it doesn't matter how many christians profess christianity, but the point is do lorese & co. hate cricketers just because they happen to believe in christianity? check those posts. I dont think anyone will learn a lesson if you ridicule his/her chore belief. Yes, Cricket, Tennis, Football, even Aussie rules etc. are also mentioned there.(sarcasm)

Evan, you may not get a reasonable answer for “original sin”, just excuses or illusions.

My understanding is original sin occurs when you are born in the flesh. So everyone is first a sinner in the eyes of god, condemned before living. Its a good method of instilling fear and submissiveness, so control is easy. “One” being one body of god, combined in his might, to be enslaved, controlled, corrupted as one.

You can see that mental state in Michael4Loves posts. Full of emotion, yet ask him to provide details and verifiable fact for his miracles and the truth may rise to the surface, sinking him under its weight. But he'd swear on the bible its all true, which may verify the veracity of his claims. When your beliefs a delusion, then illusions appear real.

Obozo, hate, nah we use names and leave hate to those who have to prove how stupid they are. Monotheists use names, threats, repetitive programming and indoctrination, psychological abuse of children, harassment (preaching, spreading the word,) subterfuge and direct lying, bombs, guns, you name it and the followers of Yahweh will use it to be right about their wrongness.

The argument for any belief is solely related to the total expression of its outcome, not what the belief would have us think. How can you not base your beliefs on life experiences. You had to experience the bible didn't you, you had to experience walking, reading, everything. Without actual experience your an empty shell, void of the knowledge of senses or understanding. Yep, not a bad description of a monotheist.

obozo - first post "Great piece, now watch the GB descend. " not exactly hatred expressed there.

I noticed only one post where the terms you refered to were used and then in reference to one small part of the christain church - the fundies.

From what I've seen Evan has remained polite the whole way through yet you accuse him of hating all christains. No chance that you are bearing false witness against him?

If you want to see excessive rudeness, veiled hatred and generalised attacks on all believers in a faith have a browse at some of the christian posts regarding muslims or sometimes athiests and agnostics. There you get to see masters in hatred and arrogance at work. Demonstrating the bit that someone once said about "by their fruit you shall know them". Not all christians, just some.

R0bert

A short test in the conflict between ‘belief’ and ‘reality’.

Two persons are standing at an intersection when a car accident occurs. Police are called.

In attempting to correctly report the matter, both persons are spoken to. Both give a different account of events and apportion blame differently.

When confronted with this problem by police, both claim to have it ‘right’ and believe they have recalled it factually.

Police investigate more and cannot discount either version of the two witnesses.

Who of the two, who’s belief recounts reality?

Hi Evan Gillham,

I couldn't answer your questions as the forum mods restrict only 2 posts per article.

Your question: * And could you, or any other Christian here, please explain the meaning of 'Original Sin'? *

I have experienced the reality of 'Original Sin'.

. As you and I know, sin & subsequently death came through
disobedience. We can clearly see rebellious nature in humans.

I will give you a clear picture in terms of definitions.

1. What is Sin? A: Sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4
2. What is the result of Sin? A: For the wages of sin is death Romans 6:23

The first humans sinned and got the result of Sin.
Through Sin, came Death.
We have the same human nature. I know my heart, my thoughts.

Jesus said:

" For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man. " Mark 7:21

I get evil thoughts, My fellow neighbour speaks according to his/her thoughts, Some others do evil deeds. What is the source of all these?
*thoughts - *words - *deeds

I know this is due to human nature. We have the same disobedient sinful nature of the first humans.

Dear Evan, Our Loving Heavenly Father did not leave us in that state. He made a provision for us, humans to reconcile with Him.

" For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, Lord Jesus Christ that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. " John 3:16

A simple faith in Jesus Christ, What He did for us changes our nature altogether.

" Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. " 2 Corinthians 5:17

This is what I have experienced, my original disobedient & sinful human nature is replaced with the spiritual nature, the very nature of Jesus Christ.

Hi Evan Gillham,

Your question

* To all: Could any Christian here please explain why they call themselves one?

* Christian * Christ - In
A person who has Christ, His Spirit, His nature within himself/herself is known as a Christian.

* Christian
A person who has fallen in Love with Christ, His Sacrifice, His Words.

* Christian
Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." Matthew 16:24

Hi The Alchemist:

Thanks for your sharing your thoughts on my life.

You said: You can see that mental state in Michael4Loves posts. Full of emotion.

This is the exact response my Pastor (Pagan) got when he shared his testimony with his family. They admitted him in a mental hospital and gave him 'shock' treatment. Later, they expelled him from their house.

I know what happened in my life. I can show whatever details you want me to.

And I quote the very Jesus words which worked mightily in my life.

And Jesus said to him, "If you can! All things are possible to him who believes." Mark 9:23

All the Best!

* obozo: You said, "Robert, I have seen these cool words used in this thread : 'sick', 'nutters', : What a sick religion. Have you seen them?"
Lorese was referring to what she read on a website, the address of which she provided. I would agree with her absolutely that those people on that site are sick. Did you read why she thinks they are sick? Apparently they go on Holy Land tours to visit where they think Armageddon will take place, and joyfully anticipate that particular catastrophic battle. So if that's true then yes I agree that's pretty sick. Regarding cricketers - grow up! Do think all the Muslim and Hindu players on the Pakistani and Indian teams are destined for an eternity of excruciatingly painful punishment because they do not 'follow Jesus'?

* Michael4Love: You said, "The first humans sinned and got the result of Sin. Through Sin, came Death. We have the same human nature. I know my heart, my thoughts."
You're talking about Adam and Eve, right? And, after assuming they were two actual people, made from clay and a rib-bone, are you saying that they and all their descendents would have never died if they had not sinned? Michael, the story of Adam and Eve is mythology, like the mythology found in any culture. Michael I know my heart and my thoughts too, but only since I started thinking for myself. When I was a teenager and called myself a Christian I was not free. I started to become free when I started to learn about independence, self-reliance and patience. I'm by no means a master of those yet, but as I grow in these ways, my happiness grows too. Not a 'jumping around' happiness, but a calm and peaceful happiness deep down, and the beginnings of a genuine loving respect for other people. Practising some deep breathing techniques helped a lot too.

* Alan Grey: You said, "...give us a reason why you think they are all false?"
Any religion that claims to be the only 'true' one is quite obviously false!

Robert, I think you haven't read Lorese's posts. I will quote her words so that you can understand

These nutters believe that ‘the end is nigh’ They have ‘holy land tours’ where these sick people sing their jolly songs, pray and praise the Lord, speak in tongues, .... What a sick religion - Lorese

Am I the only one who understood that Lorese has called christianity a sick religion?

And my question to egillham:

egillham, now that you have known those cricketers and their beliefs, do you hate them? are those cricketers sick idiots deprived of intelligence? are they sub-human ? are they fools?
what do you think of them?

egillham replies: Regarding cricketers - grow up! Do think all the Muslim and Hindu players on the Pakistani and Indian teams are destined for an eternity of excruciatingly painful punishment because they do not 'follow Jesus'?

Can I see any connection between my question and his answer? Robert, and you want christians to learn from egillham??!!

And some one asks Christians, where the hell are ewe? as though christians are responsible for every thing. If there is any evil thing you find, blame it on christians and if christians do any good thing, you'll say we, non-christians also do it and criticize christians. Poor christians, they get ridiculed always

* obozo: I asked you a question first, which you did not answer. Here it is again:
"I am interested in other people's experiences and ideas. May I ask you a question? If only one Australian cricketer was a Christian, would you still be a 'believer'? If so, why does it make any difference how many of them are Christians? If the whole Australian cricket team were Christians, would that make your faith stronger? If so, why?"
Instead of trying to answer that question, you replied:
"egillham, now that you have known those cricketers and their beliefs, do you hate them? are those cricketers sick idiots deprived of intelligence? are they sub-human ? are they fools?
what do you think of them?"
So why are you complaining that I didn't answer your question? You didn't answer mine, and I didn't whinge about it.

So far you obozo, you haven't made a single comment or reference to the article I wrote, but instead jumped into the discussion waving your arms around accusing people of being 'Christian-haters'. Calm down and think of something constructive to say. Did you like my article? I wasn't completely happy with it..

egillham,

"I am interested in other people's experiences and ideas. May I ask you a question? If only one Australian cricketer was a Christian, would you still be a 'believer'? If so, why does it make any difference how many of them are Christians? If the whole Australian cricket team were Christians, would that make your faith stronger? If so, why?"

Can I know the reason for your interest on other people's experiences? Where did I say that I am a Christian or a 'Believer'? I dont care if one/all of the australian cricket profess christianity. I have read Aussie cricketers comments in a magazine and after reading your posts, Lorese's and others, I would like to know your reaction. That's the reason for me quoting Aussie cricketers and their christian beliefs.

Now, it's your turn to answer my question.

egillham - In response to your September 6th post, yes I do believe that all non-Christians will burn in hell for eternity, especially cricket players.

Lorese - I came here in the spirit of democratic, enlightened conversation and you turn nasty. I refuse to engage in personal attacks; Judas.

Michael4Love - I agree, Jesus was a true existentialist. There was another man, who 66 years and one week ago followed that very sentiment and achieved truly wonderous things; may we all aspire to reach such goals.

* obozo: "Can I know the reason for your interest on other people's experiences?" It's seems normal enough to share experiences and ideas. Probably most people talk to each other for that reason. Now to answer your question about hating Christian cricketers, where did say or imply that I hate anyone at all? I hardly ever even think about cricket or cricketers, and care even less about what religion they follow.

Here's something you might like obozo, a big list of famous Christian scientists:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Christians_in_science
Happy reading - I'll leave you to it.

Evan
"Any religion that claims to be the only 'true' one is quite obviously false!"

Why? Claiming it is 'obvious' isn't much of an argument.

In fact, since all religions make exclusive truth claims, then at most one religion can be true. This does not mean that they are all false though.

Statistics are not your strong point either, are they Mr Grey?

If there are two religions "claimed", then there are three possibilities - one is right, the other is right, or they are both wrong.

If there are ten thousand, then there are ten thousand and one possibilities, with me so far?

However, every time you add another to the list of possible candidates for being the one and only, you increase the chances of none of them being right.

In fact you can actually show statistically that it is impossible for any of them to be right, given that there can only ever be one correct answer.

This is the way it works.

There are already ten thousand "claimed right answers". I invent a new religion (Jedi, anyone?) that statistically has a ten thousand to one chance of being right, assuming of course that it conforms to all the norms of the other religions - omnipotent deity, structured worship, that sort of stuff.

Now if I continue to invent a new religion every day for the rest of my life - and everyone else does the same - very soon the chances of any one of them being "right" would be infinitesimal. Negligible. Insignificant.

Once you reach that point, it is statistically sound to say that none of them has the slightest chance of being true.

So Evan was perfectly correct to say "Any religion that claims to be the only 'true' one is quite obviously false!"

What he meant of course is "by definition, false"

* Pericles: Thanks for the correction.

This will be my last post on this thread, so I'd like to take an excerpt from Geoffrey Chaucer's 'Canterbury Tales' (modern translation). Maybe there is someone who might still read this thread and appreciate it:

This friar boasts that he knows hell,
And God knows that it is little wonder;
Friars and fiends are seldom far apart.
For, by God, you have often times heard tell
How a friar was taken to hell
In spirit, once by a vision;
And as an angel led him up and down,
To show him the pains that were there,
In the whole place he saw not one friar;
He saw enough of other folk in woe.
To the angel spoke the friar thus:
"Now sir," said he, "Are friars in such good grace
That none of them come to this place?"
"Yes," answered the angel, "many a million!"
And the angel led him down to Satan.
He said, "And Satan has a tail,
Broader than a large ship's sail.
Hold up your tail, Satan!" he ordered.
"Show your arse, and let the friar see
Where the nest of friars is in this place!"
And before half a furlong of space,
Just as bees swarm from a hive,
Out of the devil's arse there drove
Twenty thousand friars on a route,
And they swarmed all over hell,
And came again as fast as they had gone,
And every one crept back into his arse.
He clapped his tail again and lay very still.

From 'The Summoner's Prologue', 'Canterbury Tales' by Geoffrey Chaucer.

Adios.

YngNLuvnit - educate me. "There weren't as many species around then" So where did they come from? Surely they can't have (whisper it) evolved?

“Isn't that as plausible as Noah packing all the world's species of animals onto a Bronze Age boat (there are tens of millions of insect species alone), or Moses parting the Red Sea? Given the shortage of water across most of Australia, I reckon the story of Tiddilik is more useful.”



You didn’t just seriously say that? It amazes me how people with 11 year old concepts about “god” and “Christianity” make the absurdist claims. If you’re going to bash at least don’t bash from ignorance. There are a lot more serious and thought provoking issues in Christianity worth debating. Since it would take all of 5 minutes in google to see the official position on such absurd assertions I have to assume the poster must know that Noah didn’t shove a million insects onto his ship and is just trying to stir.

Clearly there are both historical and theological links between Christianity and a dislike of animal cruelty. Sorry to sidetrack this thread briefly but I wanted to bring to your attention another forum in case any Christians wanted to share there as well.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/animal_equal_consideration/

Michael4Love I promise it isn't just another one of those ones where atheists make themselves feel better by inviting Christians, attacking any who contribute, then rationalising the lack of contribution as evidence that Christians are cold hearted animal haters.

Sorry if I derailed the thread. Perhaps I can kick start it again.

Jasper BBB

“Judas”
Interesting comment. Was it personal or were you drawing an analogy between ex-Christians who preach atheism and Judas in that Judas had a great opportunity to save souls but his well intentioned behaviour got someone killed and he lost all ability to do good for himself and others and you think ex-Christians are leading people to hell?

Alan Grey / Pericles

“If there are ten thousand, then there are ten thousand and one possibilities, with me so far?

However, every time you add another to the list of possible candidates for being the one and only, you increase the chances of none of them being right.

In fact you can actually show statistically that it is impossible for any of them to be right, given that there can only ever be one correct answer.”

Unlike yourselves I lack formal training in logic. Perhaps that is why I fail to grasp your logic / adopted logic. Surely ten thousand would have no impact at all on whether or not none of them are right. Surely it would simply increase the chances that if you were to randomly pick one it is unlikely to be correct (even if one is correct). I really don’t see how it makes it statistically impossible for any to be correct.

My reasoning lacking the benefit of your training would consider it like this. Say you have a ball with an x on it and you threw it into a vat with 999 balls (sorry about the symbolism). Surely the ball still has an x on it irrespective of it’s companions (even if there were 9999)? Please give me the benefit of your learning to explain my illogic.

Robert

“If you want to see excessive rudeness, veiled hatred and generalised attacks on all believers ... Not all christians, just some.”

If you want to see “unveiled” (real cf. “veiled”?) hatred look at many of the posts where atheists describe Christians in other threads. Not all atheists just some.