Yo yo & friends took exception to my earlier quote from ex-Israeli, Gilad Atzmon. Perhaps they'd like to compare it with the following quote from an Israeli reservist: "Oded blamed the Palestinian intifada for his unit's insufficient training. 'For the last 6 years we were engaged in stupid policing missions in the West Bank...Checkpoints, hunting stone-throwing Palestinian children, that kind of stuff. The result was that we were not ready to confront real fighters like Hezbollah." (The Sunday Times, Humbling of the supertroops shatters Israeli army morale, 27/8/06)

Shooting up journalists (as in Gaza the other day), destroying homes, picking off Palestinian kids, mindless shelling and dropping bombs from on high - all in a day's 'work' for the 'mighty' Israel 'Defence' Forces.

sganot: Let's cut to the chase. Is it your belief that Palestinian refugees, born in pre 48 Israel (& their children & grandchildren), must waive their right of return to their homeland, but Jews born anywhere in the world have a right to return because their ancestors supposedly lived there thousands of years ago? If so, let's hear your justification for such a belief.

Strewth: "Is it your belief that Palestinian refugees... must waive their right of return..."

No. They have no internationally recognized unconditional "right of return" to waive. As per the UDHR, the people who actually left (not their descendents) have a right to return to their country.

This, like all rights, is not absolute and must be balanced against other, sometimes competing and even more basic rights, such as life and security (UDHR Art. 3) and nationality (Art. 15). Unfortunately, the PLO has a long history of, and is ideologically committed to, violating the basic human rights of Israelis and Jews. As a result, many Palestinian refugees have not been able to fulfill certain less essential rights, such as that of Art. 13.

Further, their country, as far as they are concerned, is not "pre-48 Israel" (an anachronistic term) but rather "Palestine", and return to the West Bank or Gaza would satisfy this right. ("Refugees" already in the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem never left their homeland, so their Art. 13 rights were not violated.)

Strewth: "but Jews ... have a right to return ... "

No. Jews also have no internationally recognized unconditional "right of return". Art. 13 means that pre-48 Palestinian Jews and post-48 Israelis have a right to leave any country (including Palestine/Israel) and return to Palestine/Israel. It doesn't give Diaspora Jews a right to "return" to the country (let alone the actual property and houses) that their ancestors left, whether 2 or 2000 years ago.

Israel's Law of Return, like similar laws encouraging the repatriation of ethnic Armenian, Bulgarian, Chinese, Greek, Hispanic, Irish, German, etc. peoples to their homelands, is simply a local law concerning immigration, and is not directly about the fulfillment of some internationally recognized unconditional human right (though it has given millions of Jews access to human rights that were previously violated).

If the Palestinians acquire sovereign independence as was offered to them more than once, they too will be able to enact a "law of return", and of course many talk about doing just that.

sganot:

Let's keep it simple: What qualifies one to take advantage of Israel's Law of Return?

Strewth, quoting from the text of the Law of Return (see http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/eng/return.htm ), it applies to:

Every Jew who has expressed his desire to settle in Israel, unless the Minister of Interior is satisfied that the applicant:

(1) is engaged in an activity directed against the Jewish people; or
(2) is likely to endanger public health or the security of the State.
(3) is a person with a criminal past, likely to endanger public welfare.

The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh (i.e., immigrant under the Law of Return) under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion.

sganot,

Keeping it simple - just answer Yes or No:

Person 1 (+ children, grandchildren, spouse etc); simply by virtue of having a Jewish mother can settle in Israel with full citizenship rights. Correct?

Person 2 (+ children, grandchildren, etc); Does not have a Jewish mother, but was a citizen of pre-48 Palestine, now Israel, until becoming a refugee in 48. Cannot settle with full citizenship rights in Israel. Correct?

Strewth,

Please note exceptions 1+2 of the Law of Return as noted by Sganot: Person 1 usually complies while Person 2 usually fails the test.

Another condition of the Law of Return is that one in fact desires to settle in Israel, just as it is a condition for Australian citizenship to intend to live in Australia.

Most of those Arabs called "Palestinians" have no such desire. Their separate "nationhood" is a late invention (Arab league, 1964) for the sole purpose of being used as a propaganda weapon against Israel. In 1948 they desired to be part of Syria, most of them still prefer to be allowed to become citizens of the countries in which they were born and currently reside, and if they were expelled to Israel, they would certainly not like to settle there as Israelis, but to overturn the country from within and change it into something else and have its existing citizens killed, expelled or at least live as Dhimmis.

I support that those few innocent Arabs with genuine affiliation to the land of Israel, who wish to come as individuals (rather than as a nation) and are happy to respect the integrity and laws of the Jewish state, should be allowed to return - and in fact, such private arrangements were already quietly arranged over the years, so not many remain in this category.