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The Forum > Article Comments > The murky world of war > Comments

The murky world of war : Comments

By Greg Barns, published 15/8/2006

Howard and Ruddock ought to warn Australians serving in the Israeli defence forces as well as those who support Hezbollah.

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sganot,

I know very well where you stand: on the side of tribalism, ethnic separatism and exclusivism, apartheid and never-ending war. History, as the precedent of apartheid South Africa has shown, is not on your side. Circling the waggons, praising the Lord and passing the ammo is pure 19th century. The world has moved on, sganot. So should Israel.

Re your questions:

1) No, "Jews" are not a "nation", but Israel is. The problem is that it was founded on the expulsion, exclusion, dispossession and occupation of another people and, until this ongoing obscenity is rectified, it will never gain what it most desires - legitimacy. When (for it is only a matter of time) Israel becomes a secular, democratic bi-national state of ALL of its citizens, those within its borders and those so far excluded, it will then gain the legitimacy it craves. If this means that it will cease to be a 'Jewish state', that's fine by me. I hold no brief for anachronistic, sectarian states, be they Jewish, Christian or Islamic.

2) I don't buy the Zionist concept of Israel as the state of an abstract entity known as 'the Jewish people'. American Jews have a state of their own called the USA. Likewise Australian Jews have a state of their own called Australia. Israeli Jews have a state of their own called Israel. Having said that, Israeli Jews have no right to pretend that it is exclusively theirs at the expense of those who were ethnically cleansed in 1948. Israel is the home of 2 peoples: its current Israeli population and its exiled Palestinian population.

3) See the Ben-Gurion quote.

Incidentally, your accusations of anti-Semitism, trotted out when all else fails, do not work anymore and simply indicate the bullying, delusional nature of your outlook.
Posted by Strewth, Saturday, 2 September 2006 9:15:12 AM
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Strewth,

I stand corrected for my loose definition that "Jews are a nation": not all Jews are Jewish nationals, but there is a Jewish nation, and while Jews can indeed prefer to be American or Australian, they are still all FORMER Jewish nationals and as such have an easier path to resume their Jewish nationality (quite distinct from the Jewish religion).

The ancient Jewish nation lives and has recently re-acquired [part of] its ancient homeland. It does not require anybody´s permission to exist. Legitimacy is nice to have, but survival is far more important!

A bi-national state cannot work, it is a synonym for destruction. We have all seen what happened in Ruwanda and Yugoslavia and what´s happening now in Iraq. Of course you will not miss a beat (or perhaps even get a thrill) when the sheep are forced to live with the wolves, but the Jewish nation is not that stupid to allow this to happen.

There is of course no problem about Arabs continuing to live in Israel as a minority: with full respect and 100% equality and human rights as inidividuals, familes and communities - but as a nation they already have plenty of other Arab countries while Israel is the only Jewish state.

As I explained in detail many times, no "disposession", or "ethnic cleansing" ever took place in Israel. The land was re-purchased by the Jewish nation for full price (in fact, it was usually paid for in full up to 4 times: to the landlords; the farmers; the nomad Beduins; and the authorities). It is not even the "disposessed" (that were happy to take the money) who cry as if it was still theirs, but rather Arab leaders who care nothing about those poor refugees (which they disposessed themselves) and force them to cry for the camera.

Mistakes can happen (on both sides) and I am happy to discuss how to correct them, but mistakes are not the rule: the rule is that the nation of Israel is back on its land and is there to stay, whether you like it or not.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 3 September 2006 9:29:52 AM
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[Deleted for obscenity]
Posted by Kalin, Monday, 4 September 2006 10:23:47 AM
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Sganot, Yuyutsu,

Your patience with Strewth is admirable, but pointless.

Although I see Strewth condemning Israel for it’s racism, it’s plain to me he is more likely to be a racist than either of you. The way he denies any merit in any position contrary to his own, and his regular use of insults instead of argument, show him to have the exact kind of narrow mind which is the root of all irrational prejudice.

Sadly, Strewth is a common example of people’s willingness to ‘think’ with their emotions rather than their minds. The human tragedy, as Strewth demonstrates, is that even education cannot reliably overcome this human failing.

What most offends me about Strewth, and others like him, however, is the way in which his one-eyed bias induces even his opponents to respond in kind, further crippling the scope for sensible discussion.
For example:

Strewth, {this bit was what got my last post axed so I'll edit it myself this time}!
Posted by Kalin, Monday, 4 September 2006 12:05:27 PM
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Kalin,

You've been a naughty boy now, haven't you? I hope mummy's made you wash your mouth out with soap.

Oh, and what most offends me about you, and others like you, is that you don't know the difference between 'it's' and 'its'. If only you'd stop wasting time in class and pay attention to the teacher.
Posted by Strewth, Monday, 4 September 2006 10:02:31 PM
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Strewth,

I wanted to reply earlier, but was on a wonderful vacation in the North (for pics, see http://community.webshots.com/user/sganot3 )

1) We Jews know who and what we are; we don’t need you to tell us. Yes, we’re a nation. Your decision that we’re not seems to rely on confusion between the terms “nation” and “state”. If you need to brush up on the concept, I suggest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation as a good place to start.

2) I don’t understand how “see the Ben-Gurion quote” answers my question. The quote shows that Ben-Gurion supported the LOR and didn’t consider it “racist”. From your answer, all I can gather is that you agree with Ben-Gurion. Do you?

3) If you were to say “I just don’t think the ‘Chinese’ constitute a nation, and I hold no brief for the anachronistic, sectarian states ‘Chinese states’ in China and Taiwan. The people called Chinese today have no real connection to China, and I don’t buy the concept of China as the state of an abstract entity known as ‘the Chinese people’”, I’d have to consider you anti-Chinese – even if you claimed not to be. And if you said that Palestinians don’t constitute a nation and should be satisfied with citizenship in other countries rather than having a state of their own, you’d rightly be considered anti-Palestinian. You may love Chinese or Palestinian people as individuals, but if you negate their group identities and dismiss their political aspirations and claims, you put yourself in opposition to them. You, Strewth, do this with Jews, and yes, it does make you anti-Jewish, AKA anti-Semitic. Don’t get me wrong; yours is not the worst form of anti-Semitism in the world. You haven’t said that we are the source of all wars, or that we control the world’s finances, or that we should all be killed. Nevertheless, it is anti-Semitism.

continued...
Posted by sganot, Tuesday, 12 September 2006 3:32:28 AM
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