sganot,

Simple: Israel's Law of Return, which accords Jews (and their families) with no real connection to Palestine/Israel the exclusive privilege, based on their ethno-religious background, of settling in Palestine/Israel, while denying same to non-Jewish Palestinians (and their families) with real connections to Palestine/Israel, enshrines the principle of discrimination based on ethno-religious criteria. The latter is racism. Its translation into law makes it a form of apartheid.

c'mon Stewth, tell us a little about yourself? Age? What you do for a living? Why you're so bitter and angry?

I and others have tried to answer your questions, but you give back so little.

OK, Strewth, you tried to make your case for racism, but I'm not convinced. How about you, Yuyutsu? Kalin? Scout?

"No real connection"? It's our homeland, for goodness sake. It's the cradle of our civilization, center of our culture and religion, and the only Jewish state on earth. I suppose we have no real connection in the sense that the Thai people have "no real connection" to Thailand; the Greeks "no real connection" to Greece, and the Egyptians no "real connection" to Egypt.

"Exclusive privilege"? No, as I already explained numerous times, one can settle in Israel and acquire Israeli citizenship outside the framework of the LOR.

"Denying same to non-Jewish Palestinians"? The LOR doesn't deny any particular ethnic group anything.

"Discrimination based on ethno-religious criteria": Discussion of how Judaism does or doesn't fit the "religious" label will have to wait for another time, but discrimination based on ethnic/national criteria is very much the rule in immigration and citizenship/naturalization law, and quite legal. States, and in particular nation states, have a legitimate, compelling interest to maintain their particular national/cultural character.

"The latter is racism." No, discrimination based on race would be racism. Discrimination based on nationality is nationalism.

"Its translation into law makes it a form of apartheid." Apparently, you don't know what racism or apartheid mean. Not all discrimination is illegal (law by definition discriminates between people), not all discrimination is racism, and not all racism is apartheid.

Here's a good article about this issue: http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110008836

Now, let's go back to keeping it simple:

1) Do you accept that Jews are a nation?

2) Do you accept that Jews are entitled to an independent state of their own (ignoring specifics about location and borders)?

3) Are immigration laws like the LOR “racism enshrined in law” when all these other countries do it, or only when Israel does it?

sganot,

For you to be "convinced" would be tantamount to you leaving the bubble you live in, breaking out of your comfort zone. You're a beneficiary of Israeli apartheid and you'll be damned if you'll give up the privileges. I understand.

"Discrimination based on ethnic/national criteria is very much the rule in immigration and citizenship/naturalization law, and quite legal."

I'm afraid a certain Mr Ben-Gurion would disagree with you there: "The Law of Return differs from immigration laws which determine the conditions under which the state will accept immigrants, and their type. Such laws exist in many countries and they change from time to time according to internal and external changes. The LOR has nothing to do with immigration laws. It is the law of perpetuity of Jewish history; this law asserts the principle of sovereignty by force of which the state of Israel was established. It is the historical right of any Jew, wherever he may be, to return and settle in Israel..." Knesset, 3/7/50

"States...have a legitimate, compelling interest to maintain their particular national/cultural character."

Australia used to agree with you - until it grew up. It had a White Australia Policy designed primarily to keep out Asians. It was eventually scrapped as discriminatory on the grounds of race. Israel has, in its LOR, in effect, a Jewish Israel Policy which continues to discriminate on the grounds of ethno-religious criteria. Its discrimination is directed not against non-Jews in general, but criminally AGAINST the indigenous people of Israel/Palestine expelled en masse in 1948 by Zionist forces.

As I've pointed out: racism + law = apartheid.

Sganot, there is nothing really for me to add - you stated it all very well.

So far Strewth did not even answer my first question, should it mean that he does not except the existence of the Jewish nation? that would explain why he goes round-and-round about religion and ethnicity, no matter how many times we refute that these are the criteria - I understand that some people just do not like the idea of a nation at all - good on them, they can live without it, but what about "live and let live"?

Strewth,

Let's go back to keeping it simple:

1) Do you accept that Jews are a nation?

2) Do you accept that Jews are entitled to an independent state of their own (ignoring specifics about location and borders)?

3) Are immigration laws like the LOR “racism enshrined in law” when all these other countries do it, or only when Israel does it?

Strewth, I think you know where I stand and I know where you stand. We don't agree, we won't agree, and that's fine. I am very comfortable disagreeing with your opinions, which amount to a negation of the identity of an entire people. At this point, it is fair to consider you an anti-Semite. I know, you'll complain that whenever people "criticize Israel", they are unfairly labelled anti-Semitic. And maybe you tell us "some of my best friends are Jewish". But you wish to deny to the Jewish people the same rights that you demand for yourself and claim for others. That sort of hypocritcal double standard is anti-Semitic.

You're right if you think that trying to convince the other is pointless. I am certainly not here to convince you of anything. I only responded that the burden of proof is on you to convince us because of your command that I "convince us..."

For the record, I don't live in a bubble; I live in Israel. I've lived here for 22 years, and I trust my own personal experience more than I trust what you've read in some anti-Israel websites and books.

BTW, if you think that Australia's immigration and citizenship policies are not discriminatory, you are fooling yourself; of course they are discriminatory.

---

Yuyutsu,

"..should it mean that he does not except the existence of the Jewish nation?"

Yes, I think one can safely assume that. Thankfully, it hardly matters at all what Strewth thinks. The Jewish nation exists, and Israel is a sovereign, independent, and democratic Jewish state.

Now, Yuyutsu, how about telling us something about yourself?