trade 215,

why are you so defensive about being called a woman-hater, when you see no problem in calling people 'man-hating fems'? You claim that our arguments lack credibility, but such hypocrisy makes you look bad.

Of course life isn't all about individualism and becoming a rich CEO. But is there any reason that women should be denied the chance to pursue that life path, if they so wish? Strangely enough, I want both a meaningful career and a satisfying family life, and I don't think that is unreasonable. I dunno, maybe one of you can tell me why I shouldn't be wasting my time on working and getting an education and instead should be married and pregnant by now.

"Don't focus so much on meeting a woman's needs that you neglect your own. Don't sacrifice your own viewpoints just because it makes her so happy when you concede to her."

Hmmm Seeker I wonder if you would still agree with that statement if it was talking about women not focusing on men's needs to such an extent that they neglect their own. Because it cuts both ways. As James H said earlier, "Gender equality envoles (sic) both genders being respectful of each other and treating each ohter (sic) fairly as well as having the same rights".

By the way James H, I agree with you on that point, and in my experience of feminist literature that is something most feminists would agree with. Do you actually read feminist literature, or do you just read sources that trash it?

Feminism is about power. It is about equalising the power relationship between the sexes, so that neither is disadvantaged. Those that believe feminism hasn't gone far enough think that we haven't reached equality yet. Those that think feminism is irrelevant think we have already reached that point. Those that believe it has gone too far think that the balance of power has shifted too far in favour of females. But to say that feminism is essentially about shifting power so that it is unequally in favour of women is just wrong.

Trade215 - for your edification this is how the exchange went down:

JAMES: "The only things you haven’t done yet is to comment on the size of our genitals, our sex lives etc etc. This is called 'misandry.'"

Me: "...I'm not bothering to argue intellectually with any of these small membered* jerks who are so loving pissing off the feminists.

*There you go James, I threw that one in there for you."

Get it now?

And James, yes I agree with you too on the mainstream media being flawed systematically. Add to that the fact that journalists are charged with compressing large amounts of [sometimes] complex information into a more digestible and shortened form for the public and mistakes do happen.

But that's a whole other forum.

Enaj

I won't go into details but I do all those things that you've mentioned and much more and I work full time. If I had the choice of keeping house or working I'd know what path I'd choose.

If men in Australia and other parts of the western world were the bunch of overindulged deadbeats that fems have made them out to be then Oz would look much more like Somalia or some other 3rd world dunny. Which is what it's slowly becoming, thanks in part to the handmaiden of multiculturalism, feminism fawning over those wonderful 3rd world cultures.

Anna, I knew the CEO thing would come up. If any person wants to make the sacrifices to do it then they're welcome to it. I just think it'd be nice for some to stop whining about how hard they have it and grow up a little.

You're a journalist, that figures, remember the articles on workplace deaths in the Sydney Morning Herald? They were all men, not one mention of it though let alone the fact that men make up over 90% of workplace deaths, didn't mention that either. Any idea why Annie?

You're the expert here

It seems to me that the key issue is just what constitutes 'feminism' or being a 'feminist'. People like Greer give an overwhelming vibe that they consider 'feminists' should reject all things 'feminine' and pursue lives that belittle males, reject domestic roles, agressively engage careers and generally are absorbed by proving a point. I think female generation 'Y's' are alot smarter/ mentally sound than that!

As a 26yo male I can safely say that a majority of females in the 20-35 yo bracket are not interested in waving the flag that Greer waves. In fact many of them are now putting males my age on the spot and demanding marriage, children and picket fences by the time they are thirty! Of course this is not to say these females are home bodies- many are university educated, professional and more than capable of holding their own in the wide world.

Women of all ages these days also express resentment to Greer and her like- they were so obsessed with making choices available for women but now they seem intent on taking these choices away. Why is it wrong for females to look great in a skirt, have children and become wives? Afterall guys cant do any of these things! The answer I think is that Greer's 'brand' of feminism stemmed from insecurity and resentment. Females these days arent insecure, dont need males but have actually decided that instead of resenting males they might actually like them. Maybe males are becoming more likeable than Greer and this is what pisses her off so much?!

Good for you, Carnifex, but I suspect many men and women reading this will see at least some reality in the picture I paint of the un-noticed work women do for men. I am still waiting for a list of the un-noticed work you do for us - and I'm not being smart here, I really want to know. I think if you claim to do it, you ought to be specific about it.
As for staying home or going to work, I've done both and nearly went troppo stuck in lonely suburbia with two small children. I will never forget how, not just my life, but my entire families life improved when I was lucky enough to get a part-time job when my youngest was two and a half. It didn't just improve financially either, it improved because I was happy and engaged and intellectually stimulated again, and my happiness mattered to all of us.
if you'd be happier staying at home, I'd encourage you to find a way of doing so. That is what the much-maligned feminist ideal is all about, life choices for individuals ( yep, male and female) that are about their own desires rather than some rigid gender role imposed by others.

What a slug-fest.

All this vitriol over women wanting equal rights and opportunity to men.

Well, for a start, at least all this slug-fest proves unequivocally that Feminism IS NOT PASSE.

Constant vigilance is required. However, I am optimistic, the majority of anti-female posters here, primarily only post their POV's on female related articles. They are indeed (as Leslie Cannold called them) ‘the stalkers of the internet’. They have either been badly hurt or have major issues of self esteem. And that is their problem, not mine, not Ena's, nor Anna's, nor R0berts, nor LA1985’s; not one of us is under any obligation to justify ourselves to these sad men.

As I have stated previously, men stand to benefit from a fair and equitable society, just as much as women.

The 'usual sexists' have nothing to offer in place of feminism, because there is nothing. They fear equality, because they cannot deal with the idea of competent independent women. They are to be pitied, not feared. Most men do not fear women and prefer confident, intelligent women.

Men, such as Dr Michael Flood, are proactively pursuing greater equality and communication between the sexes. Below is a link to his web-site:

http://www.latrobe.edu.au/arcshs/Staff/michael_flood.htm

Don't let the misogyny of a few disgruntled men be the catalyst for continuing the slugfest. We know there are men who are actively engaged in domestic care, such as Carnifex, however he is still the exception. Most of the domestic sphere is still dominated by women as most of the external world is dominated by men.

As the author says in her article;

"we should not get too hung up on the labelling or image of feminism. The truth is: feminism worked. It took. And the way young women live today is the evidence. There is still a long way to go, but we should recognise and celebrate the effects of feminism on the present generation of young women.”