PTBI

Not to be provocative, but I have to tell you that, on any rational analysis of the relative military capabilities of TNI (Indon military) and the ADF (Aust military), if (heaven forbid) it came to war, TNI would be catastrophically defeated. It wd be a bit like the two wars between Saddam's antique forces and the modern US. Note that China has not tried to retake Taiwan by force. Why not? Despite China's huge numerical superiority, if it tried to invade Taiwan it would suffer a military catastrophe at the hands of Taiwan and the US (and I am not including nuclear weapons in the equation).

Australia has a far smaller number of people in the military than Indonesia, but, alas, in this age it's not numbers but the quality and quantity of hightech equipment and training that counts. Our electronic warfare capabilities would shut down Indon military communications, thus decapitating TNI from the outset. Our Air Force could remodel central Jakarta; our navy cd close the Malaccca and Sunda straits, sinking the Indon Navy in the process; our Army would probably not even need to fight, though in the low-level E.Timor border clash of 1999, TNI took far more damage than was ever admitted by either side.

Do not allow legitimate patriotism to obscure rational judgements. That's how countries get into losing wars. There are no issues btwn Aust and Indon that cannot be managed by careful diplomacy; your talk of "corporal punishment" and now of war is both foolish and dangerous. Show a bit of sense, mate.

@Mhoram:

Not to be provocative, but any rational analysis would find Australian forces would be catastrophically defeated if it tries to invade Indonesia. Your navy cannot even stop 8000 Indonesian fishermen from annually fishing in "Australian" waters, entering Australian rivers, and landing/resting in Australian soil at will. Your inexperienced army cannot even prevent motley gangs of mobs from destroying most of Honiara which was under Australian army's protection during the recent riots.

Your claim that Australia is capable to invade Indonesia, the largest archipelago in the world with 20,000 islands stretchting the distance from Ireland to Iran with 250 million-strong population, is hilarious joke. Even US military, the strongest in the world, failed to defeat Iraq, a small and relatively simple country. Indonesians will easily repluse any Australian invaders, we will make a bloody mincemeat out of Australian soldiers, and our soldiers will make large collections of dead Diggers' ears.

Do not allow jingoistic patriotism to obscure rational judgements. That's how countries get into losing wars. Your talk of war with Indonesia is both foolish and dangerous. Show a bit of sense, mate.

Ludwig
we dont underestimate the small numbers of Australian supporters of Papua separatism. Could grow bigger and decisive in no time.

And of course no supporters of Papuan Independence will ever use that word 'separatism'. They say they support Papuan human-right, particularly the right to decide for themselves whatever the result.
This is simply unnegotiable. We cannot change the past.
Demanding Indonesia to give Papua referendum is like demanding Australia to give Aborigines the right to choose between continueing under white rules or be the master of their own land (means white must be out).
Indeed horrible things happened in the past. Yudhoyono said "mistakes had been done". But he has vowed to solve Papua problem in "a just, peaceful, and dignified manner." This is not easy and would take some time. Australian supporters of Papua separatism only make his task harder.

BTW, How long it took you to solve the Aborigines problem? One or two years?!

We have gone through difficult times as a nation. We face many serious problems. There were times when we questioned ourselves, will we survive? But so far we do. So national integrity is very sensitive.
Just as we were willing to sacrifice good relations with Malaysia than to lose Karang Unarang, we are also willing to sacrifice good relations with Australia, than to be forced to give Papua referendum.

In Indonesia many critics ask the President to take tougher stance because our nation is in danger. He refused. Angry Indonesians in Lombok demand the President to close the Lombok Strait to Australian ships. Others pressure the president to cut all ties, but Yudhoyono didn't. "Withdrawing our ambassador is a better option than war," VP said.

It is so unfortunate that now Indonesia-Australia relations to some extent lies in the hand of Papuans separatists and its supporters in Australia. They put both govts in difficult position. While most Indonesians back the president, Australians don't support the PM.
Who knows what will happen next.
A good article
http://www.smh.com.au/news/paul-sheehan/blamethrowers-miss-the-mark/2006/04/23/1145730804863.html

Ningtyas

“we dont underestimate the small numbers of Australian supporters of Papua separatism. Could grow bigger and decisive in no time.”

Exactly: small numbers. In fact, very tiny numbers. Yes it could grow bigger. But all sorts of things ‘could’ happen.

“And of course no supporters of Papuan Independence will ever use that word 'separatism' “.

Why not? Why wouldn’t they if that’s what they were really on about?

Supporting the right for Papuans to decide for themselves is not supporting separatism. Given the highly suspect nature of the 1969 referendum, it is totally fair and reasonable to revisit the issue and give the Papuans another chance to express their desires. After all these years, they would be in a much better position to make a judgement.

Now, here’s the thing….. if Indonesia is treating the Papuans in a fair and reasonable manner, then they would have no reason to vote for independence, would they?

The very fact that Indonesia seems to completely dismiss the chances of another referendum is in itself highly suspicious. This no doubt because the so-called referendum of choice, which some have labelled the referendum of no choice, was indeed totally corrupted and was clearly an issue of no choice. This has been shown beyond all doubt.

The comparison between how Australia has treated Aborigines and how Indonesia has treated Papuans is really unfortunate. I think it backfires on you and PTBI well and truly. If you think Australia’s history of displacement of indigenous people is so bad, then surely you would be advocating that nothing of the sort happens in Papua. If you think it is reasonable for Australia to hand the land back to Aborigines, then must surely think it is reasonable for Indonesia to hand land back to Papua!! For you to use the atrocious history of displacement in Australia as a constant reference seems to be highly hypocritical.

If you think Australia should hand the land back, then prove your principles by calling on your country to hand Papua back!!

Thanks PTBI for making history. You're the first Indonesian to admit that Indonesia's plan all along was to "Ratakan dengan tanah" (level to the ground East Timor in 1999 for supporting independence). True true true if only Wiranto would also admit that and do your country and my country a favor..... Go to Cipinang with Eurico if you really believe in that cause! BTW PTBI aren't you proud of your country's support of President Ahmadinejad?

Maracas,
Do you really support the arrogant Fretilin regime in Timor? They are destroying their own country with their Portuguese arrogance / stupidity. They should go back to Mozambique and leave the real Timorese to build their country. Ask for a pension from the Mozambique communists and don't bother the good people of East Timor who are suffering because of their arrogance.

Ningtya,
Thanks for pointing out that Jakarta Lobby article. Just to add legitimacy, notice how he refers to the "Javanese empire" which we know doesn't exist so his article is Jakarta Lobby nonsense from the SMH that is good for use only as toilet paper.

Mhoram,
Good analysis and PTBI rebuttal is not up to standard.

Ludwig,
your post is surprising.
What I am trying to say is, just as Australia has been trying to make up mistakes of the past, we too now is trying to correct the mistakes of our own.
Our govt face so many serious problems -thanks to Soeharto- and the solution should be within the Unitary State of Republic of Indonesia. Papua is not our only problem.

"If you think Australia’s history of displacement of indigenous people is so bad, then surely you would be advocating that nothing of the sort happens in Papua."
Agree.

"If you think it is reasonable for Australia to hand the land back to Aborigines, then must surely think it is reasonable for Indonesia to hand land back to Papua!!"
Now, now Ludwig. How can you draw such conclusion about what I think?! In fact, I think that's UNREALISTIC and IMPOSSIBLE.
Did you confuse me with someone else?

"For you to use the atrocious history of displacement in Australia as a constant reference seems to be highly hypocritical."

Explain, please. What do I say exactly? When I say that horrible things indeed had happened in the past, I refer it to Papua.
It's only after joining this forum that I learned more of the fate of the Aborigines, especially children, and I was surprised!

But have I ever said that Australia should hand the land back to the Aborigines? NEVER!

"If you think Australia should hand the land back, then prove your principles by calling on your country to hand Papua back!!"

You amazed me. Where did I say that?
What I said is :
"Demanding Indonesia to give Papua referendum is like demanding Australia to give Aborigines the right to choose between continueing under white rules or be the master of their own land (means white must be out)."
Which means; unrealistic and impossible.

I say that because I know one of the demand of the separatists is that Indonesia should be out from Papua.
It's just as impossible as to suggest that the whites should be out of Australia. Simple as that.