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The Forum > Article Comments > Protecting our national interests? > Comments

Protecting our national interests? : Comments

By Gary Brown, published 5/5/2006

The pervasive, self-perpetuating, pro-Jakarta mindset in our international relations bureaucracy has become a canker on the Australian body politic.

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FWIW here is the universal declaration of Human Rights:
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

and the UN definition of genocide:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/p_genoci.htm

They are clear and comprehensive, you don't need to be a lawyer to interpret them.

re ASEAN: one of the principles of ASEAN is no interference into each others domestic politics. We have to remember that many ASEAN members are "newly" independent and thus are very sensitive to (perceived) attacks on their sovereignty.
Posted by gusi, Tuesday, 9 May 2006 6:44:21 PM
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@Ludwig
"Is Australia supporting Papuan separatism?"
Who do you mean by Australia? The fact is, some Australians in Australia land are indeed support Papua separatism. This is a fact you can't deny.

"Is Australia likely to become a base for a mass exodus of Papuans?"
The fact is, as can be read in some news, it's some Australians activists who encourage Papuans to flee to Australia.

"Is Australia in any way a base for support for the dismantling of Indonesia?"
YES IT IS. Yes it has been. You see this please.
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/104539.php
Amongst Indonesia neighbours, only Australia who do this. After succeed with East Timor, now they are trying with Papua.
Only this time we will not let it happen. We will fight till the last drop.

"Some Australians (a tiny [absolutely minute] portion of the populace) have strong concerns about human rights in West Papua, and the totally bodgy referendum that saw them go under Indonesian rule. That is not to say that they shouldn’t stay under Indonesian rule, if they so choose and if they are treated with due respect and humanity."

Yes, that's how it starts. It's starting with a small activist who said their concern is all about 'human right'. And then it gets bigger and bigger until your govt succumb to their pressure. So here is the bottomnline. If Australia is such a free country that it's citizens are allowed to support separatism in other countries, then Indonesia is also a free country to choose to stop all co-operation with any countries who endanger its national integrity. I do not wish Hamzah Thayeb to return to Australia, instead I hope Bill Framer will go home soon.

"It is about human rights, not separatism."
Oh, please Ludwig. We are NOT that dumb! This is just one example amongst many.
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/104539.php
Posted by Ningtyas, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 4:24:08 PM
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PTBI, you say: "Australia has no choice but to acknowledge West Papua as integration [I think U mean 'integral'] part of Indonesia."

Actually we DO have a choice. We could, for instance, do one or more of the following: 1. Recognise a West Papuan Govt-in-exile. 2. Challenge the validity of the 1969 "act of free choice" at the UN and ask the UN to organise a plebiscite in W. Papua under international supervision. 3. Provide covert support to the OPM.

Now, please understand, I do not support us doing any of these things, but they are options available to us (actually, I support continued Indon sovereignty in W, Papua.) We supported Indon's illegitimate sovereignty over E. Timor for 20+ years, but when the change came, it was v. quick.

We have tried to be a good neighbour to Indonesia. $1 billion of our taxpayer's money plus $millions of private donations went to help the unfortunate people of Aceh after the tsunami. A number of our military died in a helicopter accident doing that job.

But all PTBI seems able to do is spit nationalist venom at the country that tried to help. I hope his Govt is wiser than he.
Posted by Mhoram, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 5:39:49 PM
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rogindon,
I am not speaking about the so-called 'human right struggle'. I am speaking about supporting separatism.

As for demonstration outside the Malaysian Embassy, does it tell you something? FYI, for Indonesians we have traumatic experience with Australia over East Timor, and with Malaysia it's the loss of Sipadan and Ligitan. And we do not want both cases to be repeated again.
We did react strongly to Malaysia for their armed police torturing Indonesian workers who built a lighthouse in Karang Unarang, and for firing and chasing Indonesian fishing boats within our own waters.
Now the lighthouse has been erected, and the dispute over Ambalat is being handled by both govts, so Indonesia-Malaysia relations have been improved.
Didn't it show you that we will not remain silent when our national integrity is under threat, wherever the threat may come from?
Mind you, in any case Malaysia never support separatism in Indonesia!
What I am saying is, even though there are many problems among its members, ASEAN countries do not support separatism in South East Asia.

Now look at Timor Leste. There is a seed of separatism now. There is a division between people from western side and eastern side of the tiny country. We even read there is now a so-called new Republica Timor Tasi Mane (RTTM) within Timor Leste. And if the would-be separatists think they can use Indonesia land as a base for their struggle, they should think again. Indonesia has made it clear, we will not let our land to be used as a base for any parties in the conflict. Just as we do not want other countries (Australia!) used as a base and staging point for the Free Papua movement.
Posted by Ningtyas, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 6:07:48 PM
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Ningtyas,
But Indonesia did impinge on East Timor (actually Portuguese)sovereignty in 1975 be sending in troops in respnse to a request by certain factions in that terriritory and certainly not with the consent of the government (at that time Fretilin). How is this consistent with non-interference and recognition of neighboring countries' sovereignty? (Okay, it was a colony at that time as I'm sure PTBI will point out)
Human rights is the key for both the separatists and those opposing separatism. The bulk of Australian sympathy for West Papua is for the victims of human rights abuse more than for the separatists. We can all see from East Timor how damn hard it is to establish a new and prosperous nation state.
Posted by rogindon, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 6:30:28 PM
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Ningtyas

" ‘Is Australia supporting Papuan separatism?’ Who do you mean by Australia? The fact is, some Australians in Australia land are indeed support Papua separatism. This is a fact you can't deny.”

Yes. Some, no doubt. But those that do, make up a tiny fraction of the tiny fraction of the populace who gives a damn about West Papua. You cannot say from this tiny viewpoint that Australia supports Papuan separatism.

" ‘Is Australia likely to become a base for a mass exodus of Papuans?’ The fact is, as can be read in some news, it's some Australians activists who encourage Papuans to flee to Australia.”

A very small number of Australians.

" ‘Is Australia in any way a base for support for the dismantling of Indonesia?’ YES IT IS. Yes it has been”

It probably is to some minute extent. But you will notice on the Indymedia link that you provided that there is no mention of separatism. The “dismantling” of Indonesia is not a part of their campaign, directly or indirectly. You will also notice that the photo shows the mighty total turnout of “20+” people at that rally.

Ningtyas, of course there is going to be diversity of views, but you must be very careful not to grab hold of the worst views, or the views you disagree with the most, and make them out to be the prevailing views. PTBI is the type of twit that does that sort of thing. You and I know better.

" ‘It is about human rights, not separatism’. Oh, please Ludwig. We are NOT that dumb! This is just one example amongst many.”

The vast majority of the tiny fraction of Australians who are bothered at all by the issue, are concerned about human rights, end of story. Again, your assertions that Australia is supporting separatism, the breakup of Indonesia, or some other non human-rights related strife, is just plain wrong
Posted by Ludwig, Wednesday, 10 May 2006 6:46:36 PM
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