Gary Brown has thoughtfully fleshed out the argument I set out a few weeks ago in my opinion piece in Tne Australian republished in OLO. Diplomacy is about getting the balance right: as Gsry says, the Indonesians fel off the tightrope into a stance of arrogance, and the Australian government fell off it into a stance of subservience. What Gary says about the DFAT Indonesia lobby , as he expresses it here, is true. Bruce Haigh has written a lot of good stuff on this over the years.

I hope this correspondence does not degenerate into a polarised exchange of extremist views. That gets us nowhere, with respect to 'PTBI'. The trick is to get to the right and honourable policy setting around the middle. Most DFAT people don't recognise where that is. OLO correspondents can help here.

Sending future West Papuan asylum seekers - and they will come - to hellhouse jail in Nauru, kids included, would simply be criminal, as well as cowardly grovelling to Jakarta.

The real issue now is what wll our MPs and Senators of conscience - from all parties - do when Howard's servile legislation to send all boatpeople to offshore detention comes up? It has got to be thrown out of our parliament, if we have any national selfrespect left. What about it, OLO correspondents ? Please focus your energies on this.

BTW,I am off on a pilgrimage to Spain for 10 weeks, washing John Howard out of my system. My website tonykevin.com will remain open Hasta luego !

Tony Kevin

I agree, Tony. After 10 years in office, Howard has finally succumbed to the Keating Kow Tow.

To seriously believe that one can base a relationship with the kind of personalities that make it to the top of confucian style politics on a grovel is a potentially dangerous miscalculation.

Perhaps the legislation should be correctly titled, "The Kow Tow (ammendment) Bill 2006".

How has “Howard ignored his domestic constituency.”? The “public opinion”, to which Gary refers, comes only from the usual open-border advocates. And, surely, it’s not arrogant of a government to believe that it has the support of a majority of Australians by the very fact that it does have control of both Houses.

Of course Australia should not “grovel” to anyone but, if we must call a further strengthening of our borders and an apology to Indonesia for the insult of agreeing with 42 West Papuans that they were being persecuted by Indonesia grovelling, then so be it.

The granting of TPVs to the 42 illegal entrants was the most stupid, un- diplomatic and downright insulting act perpetrated by the Australian Government, ever. The shrugging off of responsibility for it by Alexander Downer and Amanda Vanstone was even worse.

Eating humble pie was the only option

Gary Brown, Tony Kevin and Perseus,

I am in total agreement. I lived in Indonesia nine years, speak Indonesian at home as my first language and love Indonesia and its people. But the Jakarta Lobby does enormous damage not just to Australian national interests, but to the interests of ordinary Indonesians, Timorese and other people who might happen not to have the same interests as the Jakarta elite, or more correctly, what the Australian Jakarta Lobby perceives to be the interests of the Jakarta elite (and even on that they're often wrong). I remember Indonesian trade union and human rights activists - now in positions of authority in Indonesia - describing the Australian Government at the April 1998 meeting of the UN Human Rights body in Geneva as "Soeharto's PR company". Dick Woolcott and his Jakarta Lobby learnt their Indonesian skills in 1974.

Leigh,
How does apologising to Jakarta for us applying internationally recognised legal obligations to refugees help ordinary Australian and Indonesian citizens?

I also agree with Gary Brown, and I have grown tired of assorted Australian governments sucking up to Indonesia. It makes us look like wimps, dating back to agreeing to their takover of West Papua and acquiesing to the slaughter in East Timor.

Once again, Leigh is heavily into the Kow Tow. Must be a Canberra DFAT bureaucrat.

Talk about walking the impossible tightrope. Australia rightly listened to Indonesia’s concerns and modified its policy accordingly, which by the way was and win-win-win situation for Australia, Indonesia and Papua (please ask me for more info if you don’t understand this). Then President Yudhoyono gave Australia a tongue-lashing…. right on top of our conciliatory move to Indonesia’s desires.

Perhaps his comments were reflecting that Australia had stepped outside of Indonesia’s wishes before our conciliatory policy adjustment and were not a further testing to see how far we are prepared to ‘kow tow’. The intent and tone of such comments is always open to interpretation and can be presented very differently by different reporters. I therefore question whether Gary Brown is correct in his interpretation or expression.

It just goes to show how fickle the whole business is and how virtually impossible it is to stay on that tightrope.

“This pervasive, self-perpetuating pro-Jakarta mindset in our international relations bureaucracy - and even some parts of academia - has become a canker on the Australian body politic.”

I think this overstating the situation. Some people in government, international relations and academia have a view that is strongly pro-Jakarta. There is some merit in that. Many others don’t, and try to grapple with the best balance between sticking to Australia’s policies and maintaining good relations with our huge northern neighbour. In this extremely difficult situation, there are wide-ranging views as to what the best balance is.

“We have to face the fact that in the key area of Australian-Indonesian relations our own Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade cannot be trusted to protect our real national interests.”

I don’t think this is a fair and reasonable conclusion. Given the extreme difficulty of the situation, it is practically impossible to strike the right balance. Whatever our government comes up with, there will many people who strongly denounce it. Because the balance is so fickle, the majority of people concerned would criticise any decision, and very few would fully agree, in all probability

The outcome of the recent Australio-Indonesian fracas is very favourable for both countries:

>Australia's border protection from entry of violent separatists is enhanced.

>Indonesia's security is improved since Australia will no longer be a base of barbaric Papuan separatist assaults on Indonesia. PNG, a failed state, was a security threat for Indonesia as separatist rebels made camps in that country from where they launched violent murderous assaults on Indonesia, killing many defenceless transmigrant women and children. As result, our military was forced to do infiltration attacks into PNG soil throughout 1980s-1990s that stopped the separatist raids.

I think Mr Brown should not be so sensitive on President SBY's justified criticisms. Considering the multitude amounts of gratituous insults on Indonesia all these years in Australian media, to complain of a legitimate rebuke from our president is infantile and hypocrite to the extreme. You must be insane to expect Indonesians to express love towards Australia after all your Indonesia-bashing in recent years.

For all the past vicious insults done by Australia on Indonesia's dignity, Australia deserved to be insulted every day every second by Indonesians to make it even. Only by the infliction of good amount of corporal punishment, can Australians learn to improve its behaviour towards Indonesia.

Ludwig, please elaborate on how we have a win-win-win solution.

I thought Vanuatu saw West Papua as their ancestral homeland. Can't we send the refugees over there? Perhaps we can move the camp from Nauru. I have to admit that I am not that familiar with the rules on dealing with refugees.

IMHO Australia's problem is how to get the Indonesians to respect the human rights of their citizens without the country falling apart. After 5 decades of transmigration a split would be very messy (remember Yugoslavia) and we'd find no doubt more than 42 refugees on our shores.

Our current relationship with Indonesia is based on the Hawke/Keating model. Both of those gentlemen had their names written on the soles of their shoes because they spent so much time kissing the feet of Soeharto it was the only way of identifying them. Isn't Keating on record calling Soeharto 'father'. We even awarded Ali Alitas some type of medal. And how can we be critical of the Indonesian security forces when we've had a hand in training some of them.

Howard has been happy to continue with a policy based on servile acquiescence apart from backing the Jesuit-inspired uprising in E Timor. His billion dollar gift was another sign of impuissance from the Canberra camorra. Indonesia did need assistance but would it have been so offensive to suggest that the Indonesian authorities conduct a raid on the Swiss banks to recover the $15 billion that the Soeharto family has squirreled away?

In spite of the behaviour of the Indonesians it seems that the paradigmatic axiom of DFAT dictates a relationship with Indonesia even if it is based on anopsia on our part.

If the standards set by our politicians are an exemplar Mr Alfonce Capone should have sued his careers advisor. Mr Capone would have been a great Australian politician.

I was ringside for two decades whilst the lobby Gary identifies held sway over foreign policy thinking. Our neglect of South Asia and Indo-China, our paternalistic approach to Melanesia, our obsequious collaboration with repressive regimes in the Phillipines, Indonesia, China and elsewhere has seen Australia compromise its core values in thrall to confused notions of what is in our national interest.

For decades we dealt with India on a piecemeal, tokenistic basis, whilst bending over backwards for repressive governments in Jakarta.

A stable, democratic Indonesia is in our interest, but ongoing appeasement of and collaboration with policies designed to prop up the economic interests of powerful players with TNI backing will not facilitate this outcome. West Papuans and ordinary Indonesians are the victims of these policies. Australia should encourage Indonesia toward further strengthening of its democratic institutions and regional autonomy for areas of political conflict such as Aceh and West Papua.

The pandering to repressive tendencies in the Indonesian body politic, in return for grubby trade-offs, is a Canberra mindset harmful to our longer term security interests.

Just a few words on "Australian policy" and "kowtowing".

On the matter of illegal entrants/asylum seekers, there is no Australian policy. The policy comes from the UN, and if our government is kowtowing to anyone, it is to the UN, whose policy it is to dump as many Third World people on the West it can to alleviate 'inequality' throughout the world. There is to be a UN talkfest soon on it's latest baby, "Borderless Immigration" which deals with the 'rights' of people to move to wherever they choose, and to hell with the countries targetted by the UN.

All of you demanding that our Government stand up to one country, Indonesia, need to do some serious thinking about the need for our Government to stand up to the unelected, largely third world despots, of the United Nations.

What we do in Australia should come from individual governments as they are elected - not the wonky policies of governments gone, such as those of Malcolm Fraser and Paul Keating. Times change, and so do attitudes.

If the Howard Government had any backbone, it would tell the United Nations where to go, and what to do with its policies. The Australian Government, like all others, has a duty to its own country and its own people. The United Nations and international "law" is a boil on the backside of democracy and sovereignty

Leigh, you were mounting a plausible, if not credible argument right up to the point where you suggested that rules, such as the UN Declaration of Human Rights, were the work of third world despots. You are dead wrong and completely ignorant of history.

Covenants like the one on Economic, Social and Political Rights were all drafted, promoted and passed by the core democracies. They were specifically aimed at second world (Communist Block)and third world dictatorships that had demonstrated a callous disregard for the rights and liberties of ordinary people.

And these covenants sprang from our core religious and social beliefs. Not least of which was the notion that to ignore the suffering of another was to not only condone the actions that produced that suffering but to also drag us down to the same level as the persecutor.

Our problem, when we comply with our duty of first assylum, is that in the past we have foolishly assumed that this offer of assylum included a duty to offer all the benefits and privileges of Australian residence. And this has made it very difficult to distinguish between economic and political refugees.

But there are more just and equitable solutions than incarceration. If we simply directed them to locations and specifically allocated jobs that pay essentially the same as they would earn in their former homeland (plus medicare levy based on average weekly earnings) then we would very quickly sort out the purely economic refugees. And the country would benefit from jobs (like weed control in national parks) that simply do not exist under Australian pay scales.

And PTBI has continued to demonstrate that whether we like it or not, we have an "enemy en retarde" in Indonesia.

@Kraken:

The entire Indonesian people is united with Indonesian government and military in our determination to crush all forms of separatism. Indonesian unity and integrity is the most cherised Indonesian value that we will defend to our last drop of blood.

Who the hell do you think you are saying Australia has right to dictate us in our internal affairs, while Indonesian cannot do the same with Australian internal policies? Rest assured, as far as Indonesians are concerned, we value opinion of puny Australians as much as handful of dust.

@Perseus:

LOL Australia's core values is NOT human rights, but genocidal white supremacy, as shown by your theft of Aboriginal land, your murder of Aborigines, destruction of Aboriginal culture, and kidnapping of Aboriginal children. Indonesians know this barbaric genocide well and we are familiar with your "White Australia Policy", Indonesians will be laughing wildly if Australians try to pretend to be "human-rights defender".

With the dark history of cruel white oppression of Aborigines' human-rights and your racist "White Australia Policy", for Australia to talk about "human-rights" is absurd to the maximum.

"Core Democracies"........

I have to smile a knowing smile here.. and a cynical one. The 'core democracies' are founded on brutality and abuse and exploitation.

Now..suddenly, from their ivory tower, and the comfort provided by the blood sweat and tears of underprivileged, downtrodden former colonial subjects, or.. those who had "treaties" imposed on them like the Chinese, to force them to accept Opium from the British Crown in cahoots with the Sasoon family, ...now.. they have the leasure to consider what is good for the world in terms of 'human rights'.

If there was such a thing, and people were serious about it, they would try to right every identifiable wrong and repent as Zachaeus did when Jesus came along "Look Lord, to those I have defrauded, I restore fourfold"....

The criminal nature of the UN members who came up with 'Human Rights' is that they are just like an 'unrepentant Zachaeus' doing nothing in terms of restoration, and then suddenly coming up with a plan for TAX REFORM. For those uninformed about the story in the New Testament, Zachaeus was a corrupt tax collector for Rome in Israel.

I'll start supporting the UN on Human Rights when I see many of the sins of history being reversed.

Failing that, they can go take a running jump, we will work things our as we like, and determine to be in our best interests.

Gusi, it is a win-win-win situation because;

1. Australia SHOULD maintain very tight border control. Strongly discouraging people from coming here outside of our formal immigration program is an imperative of the highest order. We can and are doing this while still respecting the 1951 Refugee Convention: making sure asylum seekers are treated humanely, get fair and reasonable assessment of their cases and get asylum where found to be genuine.

2. Indonesia SHOULD be a close ally of Australia in this regard. We do need to be very mindful of what they desire and strive for the best of bilateral relations.

3. West Papuans should most definitely NOT be given the impression that they can sail to Australia and just get asylum. It is better for them if they realise that this door is firmly closed, and that any attempt on their part will result on offshore processing, a period in a detention centre and residence most probably somewhere other than Australia, if their claims are found to be true. This is nothing against the West Papuans. I believe that they are suffering real suppression by the Indonesian authorities, but the way for Australia to deal with this is through diplomacy, not by opening our borders. We don’t want a lot of desperate Papuans held up in detention centres. Australia has been through that ugly scenario. It must be avoided. Similarly, I’m sure West Papuans don’t want to be held up in detention centres. But we simply cannot provide asylum for them, without corrupting our necessarily tight border-protection policies, and fracturing relations with Indonesia.

It is extremely difficult to find the right balance between various aspects of this issue. For example, what is the best balance between still providing some sort of vehicle for West Papuans to seek asylum if they feel they really need to, but not risk leading to a large-scale exodus? And the most difficult of all; how do we maintain good Indonesian relations while doing something meaningful about West Papua?

Leigh

I agree that the granting of temporary protection visas for 42 Papuans was really unfortunate, because it stepped right outside of our tight process for dealing with such matters, and should surely have been perceived as a threat to Indonesian relations. That’s nothing against the 42 people involved.

“On the matter of illegal entrants/asylum seekers, there is no Australian policy. The policy comes from the UN, and if our government is kowtowing to anyone, it is to the UN.”

The policy was formulated by the UN, and Australia continues to respect that, as it should. But we most definitely have our own policy on how to handle the situation, while still upholding the Refugee Convention rules.

Australia is not kowtowing to the UN. It is MOST important that we respect the UN, and respect the rights and desperation of refugees. However, as should be the case with all international bilateral relations, we should be actively lobbying the UN on matters that we feel need changing. One of those has surely got to be the open-ended nature of the refugee convention, in which there is no limit to how many people a country is obligated to take.

“If the Howard Government had any backbone, it would tell the United Nations where to go, and what to do with its policies.”

No. I can’t agree with that.

PTBI says:

"For all the past vicious insults done by Australia on Indonesia's dignity, Australia deserved to be insulted every day every second by Indonesians to make it even. Only by the infliction of good amount of corporal punishment, can Australians learn to improve its behaviour towards Indonesia."

If by "corporal punishment" PTBI means "war" then he or she should say so. If not, he/she should say just what is meant. This kind of intemperate and provocative language is exactly what neither country needs right now. International relations is not about "making it even" (returning insult for insult, injury for injury). It is about learning to live with neighbours who will not go away, no matter how much one wishes they would.

PTBI should note Australia's (and the columnist's) support for Indon. sovereignty in W. Papua. Memo 1: don't bite the hand that is extended in support. Memo 2: PTBI should do a refresher course in written English.

@Mhoram:

"If by "corporal punishment" PTBI means "war" then he or she should say so."

LOL, it is hilarious for you to interpret my comment as "war". War is an option Indonesia should take if Australia decided to directly challenge Indonesian unity and integrity or disturb our security. For now, war is not a suitable punishment for Australia's offences.

I approve current Indonesian government's decision to openly rebuke Australia for any of its internal decisions that adversely affect Indonesian interests. Indonesian govt should also actively counter every anti-Indonesian campaign of lies and distortion of truth from Australian media. And Indonesia must actively fight the enemies of Indonesia living in Australian midst as listed by our Parliamentary Commission (incl Bob Brown, Natasha Stott-Despoja, Duncan Kerr, etc) as these individuals actively seek the destruction of Indonesia.

As for your "support" of West Papuan integrity in Indonesia, the truth is you have no other choice as this unity is a fait accompli as acknowledged by two UN resolutions and the entire world community. Australia has no choice but to acknowledge West Papua as integration part of Indonesia, just as Indonesia has no choice but to acknowledge Tasmania as integral part of Australia.

West Papua is a former Dutch colony. In 1949, when Indonesia gained its independence, the Dutch retained control of West Papua. During the next decade, West Papua prepared for its own independence, a move supported by Australia.

But the process was interrupted when Indonesia, using Russian military equipment, launched a small-scale invasion of West Papua. The United States, worried that Indonesia might have been slipping towards Communism, arranged for a UN-brokered agreement between Dutch and Indonesian governments, which handed West Papua to Indonesia. The UN's condition was that there was to be a UN-supervised referendum, called the "Act of Free Choice."

Or, if you're West Papuan, you might refer to it as the "Act of No Choice."

The vote occurred in 1969 and the "No Choice" name is well deserved.

What happened was that less than one per cent of the population - 1022 tribal elders - were rounded up, and they were basically told to vote for Indonesia or they would have their tongues cut out." Obviously then the vote was unanimous for West Papua remaining with Indonesia.

In the years since Indonesia's occupation of West Papua, there are estimates that around 100,000 people have died due to human rights abuses. The Javanese invaders are raping the environment polluting and if you remember the saying “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

It's time for Australia and Australians to get involved, just as we did in East Timor. West Papua's an issue whose time has come. It's the type of situation where people initially might not know too much about it. Some people don't even realise that it's just over 100 kilometres from Australia's shores.

When people do hear about what's happening there, they're often quite shocked that this is something that's going on right on our doorstep. This is an issue that has the potential to ignite huge sectors of the populations to stand up for West Papuans, just as Australians did for the East Timorese.

Ludwig,

But surely human rights are the underlying issue here. If HR violations are so bad that many Papuans are eligible for asylum, can we refuse? Of course the preferred option is to pressure the Indonesian government into improving HR in the provinces than getting a huge inflow of refugees.

Realistically if the Indonesian government can't keep pirates out of the straights and the Australian navy can't stop poachers stealing our fish, I seriously doubt that they can stop boat people from reaching our shores.

If we look at Papua in the context of the war on terror, it becomes clear that no one wants to antagonise a fledgeling islamic democracy in he western camp. The cold war is full of precedents where HR were ignored in the "war on communism". BBY is no fool and is milking it to his advantage.

Maybe the Indons and Australians are doing a very public sparring match while behind the scenes , a very different dance is going on.
If the Australian government is kowtowing to Indonesia because of the fear of the fundamentalists perhaps it would be better to withdraw any funds to the Indons and let the fundamentalists do their damnedness.
Then Indonesia will show which side of the fence they are sitting on and we will know who the real enemy is.
While the foreign fishing fleets invade our waters and the Bali murderers are sitting pretty,Indonesia is not our friend nor should it be treated as one.

Gusi

Of course human rights are a major concern. That is why we need a full-on diplomatic effort. But as explained previously, we have to be very careful indeed about how we deal with the issue as it pertains to West Papua.

One positive sign is the attempts by US Congressman Eni Faleomavaega to impress on his government and on the UN the need to revisit the sham of the 1969 ‘Act of free choice’ referendum and make sure that the West Papuans have an unintimidated opportunity to vote for independence or Indonesian rule (or Australian or PNG rule?), and to impress upon Indonesia that powerful international forces are indeed watching and expressing great concern over what is happening in Papua.

Australia should strongly support this initiative, as well as stepping up diplomatic discussions with Indonesia.

“If HR violations are so bad that many Papuans are eligible for asylum, can we refuse?”

That’s a hell of a difficult question. I would say, no, we couldn’t refuse if it came to the crunch. But again, where do you draw the line between accommodating those who really need it, without triggering a mass exodus? How would we facilitate the escape of the needy without encouraging thousands of others to leave who would probably be better off staying in their homeland rather than going into a long period of limbo in a foreign land? And how would we do it in a manner that the vast majority would think was fair?

If a large-scale accommodation of refugees did become necessary, Australia should push very solidly for many other countries to take their share, and we should offset our intake by reducing immigration proportionally. They should be accommodated temporarily, and repatriated when it is safe

On the question of Australia taking West Papuan Refugees ......
Of course, if it comes to the point where there IS a mass exodus because of ongoing repression by Indonesia where diplomatic efforts to curb the violence by TNI and militias have been ignored, We must offer refuge.
However,if the violence ceases and the peoples aspirations for the promised autonomy are honoured, there will not be a mass exodus.
The correct course for Australia is to put a stop to the Jakarta lobby's kow tow and do some straight talking tied to trade embargos and withdrawal of military aid.
If the repression does not stop a UN peace keeping force and UN review of the Act of No Choice should be implemented forthwith.
Such a strategy will in fact strengthen the hand of SBY if he is fairdinkum about wresting control of the military and placing it under the control of the Government.

The thing about the Jakarta Lobby is that it doesn't matter who is in government in Jakarta. It doesn't matter if it's Soeharto or one of the post-reformasi administrations. It also doesn't matter whether the victims of Jakarta Lobby decision-making are Australians, Indonesians, Timorese, or others. Even if the victims are Australian military personel like Lance Collins, it still doesn't matter to them. It doesn't matter if it's a human rights issue like the current Papuan asylum issue or consular (eg. Schapelle Corby, Michelle Leslie, Bali Nine). The only thing you can be absolutely certain of is that the Australian agency making the decision willl defer to what they think is in the interest of the Jakarta elite. No one would argue that the Jakarta Lobby originated at DFAT, but would it be fair to say that it also extends to Defence (see the way Lance Collins and Toohey were treated), ONA, the Department of Parliamentary Services and large chunks of the media (eg. Andrew Bolt). If we want to be serious in this discussion, let's get real specific because it's Australia's interest at stake.

Indonesia is not the only country in South East Asia with separatism problem. Thailand has it's problem with the Pattani muslims in the South, and Philippines also has separatism problem. But we do not interfere into each other domestic problem. When we say we respect other countries's soverignty, we really mean it, that's not just empty words.

Imagine if Indonesia let Indonesians support Moro separatism.
Or if Malaysia let Malaysians openly support Pattani's struggle for independence. Or if the Philippines let Filipinos support separatism in Southern Maluku in Indonesia. The region will not be as stable. Fortunaletely ASEAN countries do respect one another.

During Aceh conflict, there were also many Acehnese who fleed to Malaysia. But we did not hear Malaysia let them to make Malaysia as a base for their campaign. And look at what those Papuans do in Australia with the support of some Australians, that's totally a defferent story!

Now our national integrity is in danger, and we try to protect it, and you call us "arrogance"? What a joke.
We support our govt in this difficult time. We prefer to lose friendship with Australia now if we have to even if it's very very difficult, than to see our country breaking apart later.
President Yudhoyono resisted a demand from the nationalists to cut ties with Australia. He quoted as saying, "politicians may come and go, but Indonesia Australia relations will always be there."
But there is no point to continue the so-called close-cooperations with Australia, if Australia let Australians make Australia as a base to dismantle our country. We do not need to hear that empty words that Australia support Indonesia sovereignty...

Ningtyas

Is Australia supporting Papuan separatism?

Is Australia likely to become a base for a mass exodus of Papuans?

Is Australia in any way a base for support for the dismantling of Indonesia?

No, no, no, of course not.

So what ARE you on about?

Some Australians (a tiny [absolutely minute] portion of the populace) have strong concerns about human rights in West Papua, and the totally bodgy referendum that saw them go under Indonesian rule. That is not to say that they shouldn’t stay under Indonesian rule, if they so choose and if they are treated with due respect and humanity.

It is about human rights, not separatism.

@Ludwig:

Is it rational for Australians to expect Indonesians to trust your claims of not supporting separatism, while so many Australians like Perseus, Kekendika, Philo, etc are openly calling for the disintegration of Indonesia?

Is it rational for Australia, the biggest human rights violator in Asia-Pacific region, who've committed genocide on Aborigines, stole their land, refuse citizenship for Aborigines until recently, and who implemented the blantantly racist White Australia Policy, to suddenly pretend to care about "human rights"?

Is it rational for Australia, a "country" established illegally without consulting the Aborigines whatsoever, to ignorantly accuse an internationally-recognised and UN-supervised referendum as "sham"?

Is it rational for a weakling country Australia, who have neither economic, military, nor political clout, to try intervering in the internal affairs of a much stronger neighbour Indonesia?

@Ningtyas:

Australia is white country. Our ASEAN neighbours are fellow Asians. Whites are always racist towards non-whites and act like colonialists. It is Indonesia's misfortune to be neighbours with a white country like Australia, especially since Australians are famous for being cannabis-smoking delusional dummies, even amongst Americans or British. That is why some Ozzies manage to concoct the delusion that existence of Indonesian is somehow dependent on Australian support! I remember the joke:

An Englishman went to a brain surgeon and says, "I want to become an Irishman. Please remove half of my brain as Irishmen is known of being only half as smart as Englishmen".

"No problem", the doctor says.

After the operation, the doctor realised he had made a mistake.

"I'm sorry, sir. I've accidently removed all of your brain".

The Englishmen woke up and says, "That's alright, mate! I'm now an Australian!"

~~

I agree with you, we should cut all ties with Australia, there is no need whatsoever to have fake "friendship" of untrustworthy Australians. If they don't respect us, we don't need to respect them.

Ningtyas,
It's not true that people in ASEAN countries never supported the human rights struggle of those in neighboring countries. In the Philippines many people supported human rights in East Timor in the past. In Malaysia there was even a conference held to discuss East Timor in 1997 I think, but it was broken up by Mahathir's party thugs. Indonesians and other ASEAN people have demonstrated against the government of ASEAN member Myanmar and some Indonesians (eg AJI journalist members) were even arrested for doing this. There have been so many demonstrations by Indonesian people outside the Malaysian Embassy in Kuningan (Jakarta) it would be hard to count them. Even more than against the Aussie embassy across the road!

Now do be careful with the accusations of racism, Proud TBI. You see, I have an asian mother in law. And any Lo Faan with an asian mother in law knows a great deal more about racism than you will ever admit. My nephew actually has an Indonesian mother in law so spare us the diatribes. And especially, spare us all the blatant crap about how you regard the West Papuans as your Indonesian brothers.

proud to be Indonesian, are Westerners really the only RACISTS? Read your own posts buddy---with two eyes if that is possible.
You sound quite immature. Grow up.

FWIW here is the universal declaration of Human Rights:
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

and the UN definition of genocide:
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/p_genoci.htm

They are clear and comprehensive, you don't need to be a lawyer to interpret them.

re ASEAN: one of the principles of ASEAN is no interference into each others domestic politics. We have to remember that many ASEAN members are "newly" independent and thus are very sensitive to (perceived) attacks on their sovereignty.

@Ludwig
"Is Australia supporting Papuan separatism?"
Who do you mean by Australia? The fact is, some Australians in Australia land are indeed support Papua separatism. This is a fact you can't deny.

"Is Australia likely to become a base for a mass exodus of Papuans?"
The fact is, as can be read in some news, it's some Australians activists who encourage Papuans to flee to Australia.

"Is Australia in any way a base for support for the dismantling of Indonesia?"
YES IT IS. Yes it has been. You see this please.
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/104539.php
Amongst Indonesia neighbours, only Australia who do this. After succeed with East Timor, now they are trying with Papua.
Only this time we will not let it happen. We will fight till the last drop.

"Some Australians (a tiny [absolutely minute] portion of the populace) have strong concerns about human rights in West Papua, and the totally bodgy referendum that saw them go under Indonesian rule. That is not to say that they shouldn’t stay under Indonesian rule, if they so choose and if they are treated with due respect and humanity."

Yes, that's how it starts. It's starting with a small activist who said their concern is all about 'human right'. And then it gets bigger and bigger until your govt succumb to their pressure. So here is the bottomnline. If Australia is such a free country that it's citizens are allowed to support separatism in other countries, then Indonesia is also a free country to choose to stop all co-operation with any countries who endanger its national integrity. I do not wish Hamzah Thayeb to return to Australia, instead I hope Bill Framer will go home soon.

"It is about human rights, not separatism."
Oh, please Ludwig. We are NOT that dumb! This is just one example amongst many.
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2006/01/104539.php

PTBI, you say: "Australia has no choice but to acknowledge West Papua as integration [I think U mean 'integral'] part of Indonesia."

Actually we DO have a choice. We could, for instance, do one or more of the following: 1. Recognise a West Papuan Govt-in-exile. 2. Challenge the validity of the 1969 "act of free choice" at the UN and ask the UN to organise a plebiscite in W. Papua under international supervision. 3. Provide covert support to the OPM.

Now, please understand, I do not support us doing any of these things, but they are options available to us (actually, I support continued Indon sovereignty in W, Papua.) We supported Indon's illegitimate sovereignty over E. Timor for 20+ years, but when the change came, it was v. quick.

We have tried to be a good neighbour to Indonesia. $1 billion of our taxpayer's money plus $millions of private donations went to help the unfortunate people of Aceh after the tsunami. A number of our military died in a helicopter accident doing that job.

But all PTBI seems able to do is spit nationalist venom at the country that tried to help. I hope his Govt is wiser than he.

rogindon,
I am not speaking about the so-called 'human right struggle'. I am speaking about supporting separatism.

As for demonstration outside the Malaysian Embassy, does it tell you something? FYI, for Indonesians we have traumatic experience with Australia over East Timor, and with Malaysia it's the loss of Sipadan and Ligitan. And we do not want both cases to be repeated again.
We did react strongly to Malaysia for their armed police torturing Indonesian workers who built a lighthouse in Karang Unarang, and for firing and chasing Indonesian fishing boats within our own waters.
Now the lighthouse has been erected, and the dispute over Ambalat is being handled by both govts, so Indonesia-Malaysia relations have been improved.
Didn't it show you that we will not remain silent when our national integrity is under threat, wherever the threat may come from?
Mind you, in any case Malaysia never support separatism in Indonesia!
What I am saying is, even though there are many problems among its members, ASEAN countries do not support separatism in South East Asia.

Now look at Timor Leste. There is a seed of separatism now. There is a division between people from western side and eastern side of the tiny country. We even read there is now a so-called new Republica Timor Tasi Mane (RTTM) within Timor Leste. And if the would-be separatists think they can use Indonesia land as a base for their struggle, they should think again. Indonesia has made it clear, we will not let our land to be used as a base for any parties in the conflict. Just as we do not want other countries (Australia!) used as a base and staging point for the Free Papua movement.

Ningtyas,
But Indonesia did impinge on East Timor (actually Portuguese)sovereignty in 1975 be sending in troops in respnse to a request by certain factions in that terriritory and certainly not with the consent of the government (at that time Fretilin). How is this consistent with non-interference and recognition of neighboring countries' sovereignty? (Okay, it was a colony at that time as I'm sure PTBI will point out)
Human rights is the key for both the separatists and those opposing separatism. The bulk of Australian sympathy for West Papua is for the victims of human rights abuse more than for the separatists. We can all see from East Timor how damn hard it is to establish a new and prosperous nation state.

Ningtyas

" ‘Is Australia supporting Papuan separatism?’ Who do you mean by Australia? The fact is, some Australians in Australia land are indeed support Papua separatism. This is a fact you can't deny.”

Yes. Some, no doubt. But those that do, make up a tiny fraction of the tiny fraction of the populace who gives a damn about West Papua. You cannot say from this tiny viewpoint that Australia supports Papuan separatism.

" ‘Is Australia likely to become a base for a mass exodus of Papuans?’ The fact is, as can be read in some news, it's some Australians activists who encourage Papuans to flee to Australia.”

A very small number of Australians.

" ‘Is Australia in any way a base for support for the dismantling of Indonesia?’ YES IT IS. Yes it has been”

It probably is to some minute extent. But you will notice on the Indymedia link that you provided that there is no mention of separatism. The “dismantling” of Indonesia is not a part of their campaign, directly or indirectly. You will also notice that the photo shows the mighty total turnout of “20+” people at that rally.

Ningtyas, of course there is going to be diversity of views, but you must be very careful not to grab hold of the worst views, or the views you disagree with the most, and make them out to be the prevailing views. PTBI is the type of twit that does that sort of thing. You and I know better.

" ‘It is about human rights, not separatism’. Oh, please Ludwig. We are NOT that dumb! This is just one example amongst many.”

The vast majority of the tiny fraction of Australians who are bothered at all by the issue, are concerned about human rights, end of story. Again, your assertions that Australia is supporting separatism, the breakup of Indonesia, or some other non human-rights related strife, is just plain wrong

@Perseus:

Whatever goodwill the fact that the mother-in-law of your nephew is Indonesian may have created has been completely extinguished by your call for the destruction of our country Indonesia.

@mickijo:

Who is responsible for genocide against Indians in America? WHITES

Who is responsible for genocide against Australian Aborigines? WHITES

Who is responsible for "apartheid" against blacks in South Africa? WHITES

Who is responsible for the evil exploitation and human rights abuses of colonialism? WHITES

Whites are world-champion in terms of racism. Any racism by other races is like a drop of water compared with the ocean of white racism!

@Ludwig:

So you're guaranteeing that extremist and delusional people like Perseus, Kek-O, Philo, etc are only tiny fraction of tiny fraction of of Australian populace?

@Mhoram:

LOL, unfortunately these "options" are not available for Australia as they are not realistic. Actions (1), (2), (3) will cause a war with Indonesia, a war in which Australia as an aggressor will find no ally and a war you will lose.

You also need to learn the position of Australia in world food-chain: STOOGE OF USA. USA is good friend and ally of Indonesia, so Australia also follow USA's orders and consider Indonesia as good friend. Hence, when Indonesian govt complains about your immigration policy, your PM Howard changes your law. If Australia attacks Indonesia, you'll find yourself in trouble with USA. Remember, East Timor was given its independence by Indonesian president Habibie, not by Australia who have no role in the process.

No Australian govt will be dumb enough to make war with Indonesia and have confrontation with USA.

PTBI,
But when push came to shove in September 1999, the US lined up against Indonesia and effectively forced Habibie to accept Australian and Interfet troops on its soil by implicitly threatening withdrawal of IMF funds. Until this happened on September 11, Indonesia was still refusing to allow troops in to control the militias.

@rogindon:

LOL, your "Interfet" is just a PR exercise which makes no difference to East Timor.

Indonesian soldiers pulled-out of East Timor according to its own scheduled plan after the results of referendum came out, at around November 1999, three months after Interfet's entrance. The referendum itself was suddenly announced by President Habibie in January 1999, since he was eager to get rid of East Timor which he called "peeble in our shoes". It is clear it is our president Habibie that expelled East Timor from Indonesia through referendum. He is the person who gave East Timor its independence, while Australia had around zero influence to change the course of events.

What exactly did your "Interfet" change? The referendum was held according to Indonesian plan, after the results came out East Timor "diratakan dengan tanah" according to Indonesian plan, Indonesian soldiers withdrew according to Indonesian plan, East Timor was given its independence through period of UN rule according to Indonesian plan. The whole affair was 100% controlled from start-to-finish by Indonesia.

Your "Interfet" might as well be stricken from historical record since they did not made any noteworthy contribution.

proud to be indon. I would suggest you get some new reading,your old history books are years out of date. Yep! whites did do all that, they used to drown witches too but we have grown up a bit since then.
Next time you switch on the light, drive in a car, take medical tests, Xrays ect, fly in a plane,look at a watch, ect ect, think to yourself ,'White people invented all that' and stop using those conveniences simply because the white people you hate so dramatically made 'em all.
What wonderful inventions have come out of Indonesia...apart from bombers who kill innocents?

It is fairly obvious, now, that PTBI has a mental age of about 12, and that of an over indulged punk at that. He is not representative of adult Indonesians who are far more discerning in their statements and measured in their judgements. We are just being jerked off by an embassy staffer's kid.

I was priviledged to have been invited to Fretilin's Conference 15th to 20 May 2000 as "Convidado" and also have the honour to address the Conference.
The resilience of the Maubere people never ceased to amaze and impress me but they were happy to have seen the back of the Indonesian Vandals who stole everything they could dismantle and burn or destroy the rest. Coffee plantations belonging to Timorese that the Generals had stolen the crops for 24 years were razed to the ground.
The Indonesians had intimidated the people before the referendum to vote for autonomy not Independence making it clear they would destroy everything if the vote was for Independence.Australians witnessed TV coverage of the violence of TNI militias
They herded around 150,000 hostages and took them across the border to West Timor. Many are still there afraid to return because of rumours spread by the TNI's militia criminals.
So much for Indonesia's orderly withdrawal.
The only 'good' indonesians stayed behind in Santa Cruz Indonesian Cemetery under a field of maize...Whilst the Generals and their militia thugs responsible for the carnage have still not been brought to justice by the corrupt Indonesian Legal System.
I know what the West Papuans are suffering and the world is slowly becoming aware of the real truth.
Meanwhile, the fledgling East Timor Nation is experiencing teething problems which to a large extent is being perpetrated to destabilise the Government.
The difference between East Timor and West Papua is that the world media has access to East Timor to see for themselves whereas true to form, Indonesia has closed access to independent foreign Journalists and observers while they spread misinformation through cretins like 'Indonesian Ali'

PTBI

Not to be provocative, but I have to tell you that, on any rational analysis of the relative military capabilities of TNI (Indon military) and the ADF (Aust military), if (heaven forbid) it came to war, TNI would be catastrophically defeated. It wd be a bit like the two wars between Saddam's antique forces and the modern US. Note that China has not tried to retake Taiwan by force. Why not? Despite China's huge numerical superiority, if it tried to invade Taiwan it would suffer a military catastrophe at the hands of Taiwan and the US (and I am not including nuclear weapons in the equation).

Australia has a far smaller number of people in the military than Indonesia, but, alas, in this age it's not numbers but the quality and quantity of hightech equipment and training that counts. Our electronic warfare capabilities would shut down Indon military communications, thus decapitating TNI from the outset. Our Air Force could remodel central Jakarta; our navy cd close the Malaccca and Sunda straits, sinking the Indon Navy in the process; our Army would probably not even need to fight, though in the low-level E.Timor border clash of 1999, TNI took far more damage than was ever admitted by either side.

Do not allow legitimate patriotism to obscure rational judgements. That's how countries get into losing wars. There are no issues btwn Aust and Indon that cannot be managed by careful diplomacy; your talk of "corporal punishment" and now of war is both foolish and dangerous. Show a bit of sense, mate.

@Mhoram:

Not to be provocative, but any rational analysis would find Australian forces would be catastrophically defeated if it tries to invade Indonesia. Your navy cannot even stop 8000 Indonesian fishermen from annually fishing in "Australian" waters, entering Australian rivers, and landing/resting in Australian soil at will. Your inexperienced army cannot even prevent motley gangs of mobs from destroying most of Honiara which was under Australian army's protection during the recent riots.

Your claim that Australia is capable to invade Indonesia, the largest archipelago in the world with 20,000 islands stretchting the distance from Ireland to Iran with 250 million-strong population, is hilarious joke. Even US military, the strongest in the world, failed to defeat Iraq, a small and relatively simple country. Indonesians will easily repluse any Australian invaders, we will make a bloody mincemeat out of Australian soldiers, and our soldiers will make large collections of dead Diggers' ears.

Do not allow jingoistic patriotism to obscure rational judgements. That's how countries get into losing wars. Your talk of war with Indonesia is both foolish and dangerous. Show a bit of sense, mate.

Ludwig
we dont underestimate the small numbers of Australian supporters of Papua separatism. Could grow bigger and decisive in no time.

And of course no supporters of Papuan Independence will ever use that word 'separatism'. They say they support Papuan human-right, particularly the right to decide for themselves whatever the result.
This is simply unnegotiable. We cannot change the past.
Demanding Indonesia to give Papua referendum is like demanding Australia to give Aborigines the right to choose between continueing under white rules or be the master of their own land (means white must be out).
Indeed horrible things happened in the past. Yudhoyono said "mistakes had been done". But he has vowed to solve Papua problem in "a just, peaceful, and dignified manner." This is not easy and would take some time. Australian supporters of Papua separatism only make his task harder.

BTW, How long it took you to solve the Aborigines problem? One or two years?!

We have gone through difficult times as a nation. We face many serious problems. There were times when we questioned ourselves, will we survive? But so far we do. So national integrity is very sensitive.
Just as we were willing to sacrifice good relations with Malaysia than to lose Karang Unarang, we are also willing to sacrifice good relations with Australia, than to be forced to give Papua referendum.

In Indonesia many critics ask the President to take tougher stance because our nation is in danger. He refused. Angry Indonesians in Lombok demand the President to close the Lombok Strait to Australian ships. Others pressure the president to cut all ties, but Yudhoyono didn't. "Withdrawing our ambassador is a better option than war," VP said.

It is so unfortunate that now Indonesia-Australia relations to some extent lies in the hand of Papuans separatists and its supporters in Australia. They put both govts in difficult position. While most Indonesians back the president, Australians don't support the PM.
Who knows what will happen next.
A good article
http://www.smh.com.au/news/paul-sheehan/blamethrowers-miss-the-mark/2006/04/23/1145730804863.html

Ningtyas

“we dont underestimate the small numbers of Australian supporters of Papua separatism. Could grow bigger and decisive in no time.”

Exactly: small numbers. In fact, very tiny numbers. Yes it could grow bigger. But all sorts of things ‘could’ happen.

“And of course no supporters of Papuan Independence will ever use that word 'separatism' “.

Why not? Why wouldn’t they if that’s what they were really on about?

Supporting the right for Papuans to decide for themselves is not supporting separatism. Given the highly suspect nature of the 1969 referendum, it is totally fair and reasonable to revisit the issue and give the Papuans another chance to express their desires. After all these years, they would be in a much better position to make a judgement.

Now, here’s the thing….. if Indonesia is treating the Papuans in a fair and reasonable manner, then they would have no reason to vote for independence, would they?

The very fact that Indonesia seems to completely dismiss the chances of another referendum is in itself highly suspicious. This no doubt because the so-called referendum of choice, which some have labelled the referendum of no choice, was indeed totally corrupted and was clearly an issue of no choice. This has been shown beyond all doubt.

The comparison between how Australia has treated Aborigines and how Indonesia has treated Papuans is really unfortunate. I think it backfires on you and PTBI well and truly. If you think Australia’s history of displacement of indigenous people is so bad, then surely you would be advocating that nothing of the sort happens in Papua. If you think it is reasonable for Australia to hand the land back to Aborigines, then must surely think it is reasonable for Indonesia to hand land back to Papua!! For you to use the atrocious history of displacement in Australia as a constant reference seems to be highly hypocritical.

If you think Australia should hand the land back, then prove your principles by calling on your country to hand Papua back!!

Thanks PTBI for making history. You're the first Indonesian to admit that Indonesia's plan all along was to "Ratakan dengan tanah" (level to the ground East Timor in 1999 for supporting independence). True true true if only Wiranto would also admit that and do your country and my country a favor..... Go to Cipinang with Eurico if you really believe in that cause! BTW PTBI aren't you proud of your country's support of President Ahmadinejad?

Maracas,
Do you really support the arrogant Fretilin regime in Timor? They are destroying their own country with their Portuguese arrogance / stupidity. They should go back to Mozambique and leave the real Timorese to build their country. Ask for a pension from the Mozambique communists and don't bother the good people of East Timor who are suffering because of their arrogance.

Ningtya,
Thanks for pointing out that Jakarta Lobby article. Just to add legitimacy, notice how he refers to the "Javanese empire" which we know doesn't exist so his article is Jakarta Lobby nonsense from the SMH that is good for use only as toilet paper.

Mhoram,
Good analysis and PTBI rebuttal is not up to standard.

Ludwig,
your post is surprising.
What I am trying to say is, just as Australia has been trying to make up mistakes of the past, we too now is trying to correct the mistakes of our own.
Our govt face so many serious problems -thanks to Soeharto- and the solution should be within the Unitary State of Republic of Indonesia. Papua is not our only problem.

"If you think Australia’s history of displacement of indigenous people is so bad, then surely you would be advocating that nothing of the sort happens in Papua."
Agree.

"If you think it is reasonable for Australia to hand the land back to Aborigines, then must surely think it is reasonable for Indonesia to hand land back to Papua!!"
Now, now Ludwig. How can you draw such conclusion about what I think?! In fact, I think that's UNREALISTIC and IMPOSSIBLE.
Did you confuse me with someone else?

"For you to use the atrocious history of displacement in Australia as a constant reference seems to be highly hypocritical."

Explain, please. What do I say exactly? When I say that horrible things indeed had happened in the past, I refer it to Papua.
It's only after joining this forum that I learned more of the fate of the Aborigines, especially children, and I was surprised!

But have I ever said that Australia should hand the land back to the Aborigines? NEVER!

"If you think Australia should hand the land back, then prove your principles by calling on your country to hand Papua back!!"

You amazed me. Where did I say that?
What I said is :
"Demanding Indonesia to give Papua referendum is like demanding Australia to give Aborigines the right to choose between continueing under white rules or be the master of their own land (means white must be out)."
Which means; unrealistic and impossible.

I say that because I know one of the demand of the separatists is that Indonesia should be out from Papua.
It's just as impossible as to suggest that the whites should be out of Australia. Simple as that.

Rogindon:
Yes, I do support the East Timor elected Government which Fretilin won with an overwhelming majority in a U.N. Supervised election. They are not arrogant Portuguese but native born East Timorese with some Portuguese heritage some of whom formed an external mission that maintained headquarters due to the courtesy of the Mozambique Government during the occupation of their country by Indonesia whilst they worked to convince the world that the people wanted Independence (which they voted for under duress from the TNI.)

I was present in Dili on the first anniversary of the founding of Fretilin on the 20th May 1975 and recognised then that the Maubere people overwhelmingly supported Fretilin and their policies although it was obvious that the Portuguese elites who formed the UDT did not support them.

I continued to support them through the UDT inspired Coup attempt in August 1975 and through the Indonesian invasion and 24 years of vicious Indonesian repression.

The elected members of Fretilin who are managing the Country are determined to develop their country wisely and prudently without becoming prisoners of the IMF and the World Bank.

Now that earnings from Timor shelf oil and gas provides about a 15 fold increase in their budget the future will show a steady, sustainable improvement in the lives of the people who presently enjoy life as subsistence farmers.

The East Timorese are experiencing problems and will work through them in the forthcoming Conference of Fretilin in open discussion.
The next election will show the extent to which they continue to enjoy the confidence of the people which is a damn site more that the West Papuans have under arrogant Indonesian rule.

Ningtyas

Ok, this is good, you have clarified one thing – you are on a very different wavelength to PTBI.

I am sorry that I have confused some of his comments with yours. I am pleased that you take a much more sensible stance.

It seems that we do indeed share a lot of common ground. But we still have differences;

" ‘Demanding Indonesia to give Papua referendum is like demanding Australia to give Aborigines the right to choose between continueing under white rules or be the master of their own land (means white must be out).’ Which means; unrealistic and impossible.”

Not so. There are huge differences.

While I think that the displacement of Aborigines in Australia is, as I said last time, atrocious, it is indeed far too far past that phase in history to reverse it. If the land was to be handed back to Aborigines, non-indigenous Australians most of whom were born here, many of multiple-generations in this land, would be forced to abandon the continent, if any other country or countries would take us, or perhaps be given space in some small corner of the continent. The country would for all intents and purposes cease to exist. Then there are heaps of other issues. Of course, the concept is ludicrous.

However in Papua the repatriation of Javanese and other transmigrants and the relocation of the rest to other parts of Indonesia would not be all that difficult, if it came to the crunch. The integrity of Indonesia would not be threatened. Who is to say that they would all have to go anyway if Papua did vote for self-rule? It is thus a totally different situation.

What do you have to say about my assertion that the 1969 referendum was a total sham, bearing in mind that the blame has to be shared between Indonesia, the US and the UN? Can you assert that it was fair and proper? If not, why shouldn’t it be reheld?

A referendum for Aborigines to decide on whether whites stay or leave would be very interesting.
By 'aboriginals' do you mean full bloods only or all the mixtures as well?
Who could guarentee that this country would not be taken over by a less humane people as the last white marched out. You?
How would you classify the mixtures , the half bloods, the quarter bloods, the one little drop of blood?
Who has the vote and who hasn't.
Silly statements get silly responses.

Ludwig / Ningtyas,
Isn't it interesting how the Indonesians always shoot themselves in the foot? If they had said nothing about the 42 refugees, the overwhelming majority of Australians would neither know nor care about West Papua. The Indonesians themselves have made West Papua an issue through their pompous blustering over this issue. There is an interesting comparison with China which said little after we granted the dissident diplomat Chen asylum so the way China treats pro-democracy activists has not become a big issue.

Maracas,
I lived in East Timor for 18 months and my opinion based on living there was that the Fretilin government was arrogant and out of touch. Also it is important not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Indonesia brought some good things especially with regard to education and infrastructure. Fretilin seem to be governing for the 10% who speak Portuguese rather than the 90% who speak Indonesian (albeit as a second or third language). Maputo isn't necessarily any better than Denpasar or Jakarta as a place to learn good governance and democracy.

Do you think Mari Alkatiri will get rolled next week? I understand the petitioners lying in wait in Ermera also want him out and they are armed.

Rogindon
Mari could get rolled as there has been a hate campaign going on for some time that has been fuelled by sectarian elements who have spread unfounded rumours of corruption about him, also because he is a moslem.I have known him and many others in the Government for more than 25 years. I am impressed with their governance in an extremely difficult financial environment.

He has been a tenacious and effective negotiator over the timor gap issue and his refusal to embrace foreign investment,and preference for slow sustainable development has made him appear arrogant to those who want to cash in on foreign dollars.

It will be debated next week in open debate as it should be and I believe it will come down to the delegates to decide.
He will abide by the decisions of Conference, which I hope are made on facts and not innuendo and rumours.

If the petitioners at Ermera cross the line and decide to use mob violence, they will pay a high price. I think the Government has exercised considerable restraint in dealing with the demonstrations unlike the Indonesians in West Papua

Ningtyas

Another interesting point from my confusion of your comments with some of those of PTBI, where I incorrectly attributed some very strong views to you:

It is all too easy to do this sort of thing and it gets done far too often. In fact I reckon it is one of the most dangerous aspects to all sorts of debates – the tendency to misinterpret or misattribute views, or to gloss over views that are moderate and remember only those that are towards the end of the spectrum, and then either deliberately or unconsciously make these out to be the prevailing view.

A couple of posters on this thread seem to be so fundamentally polarised that nothing can get them to see things in a balanced manner. They are just the sort of people that have a tendency to deliberately beat up the views of those with whom they disagree, or even lie straight-faced at times.

Ningtyas, even though it didn’t seem so at first, I think you have demonstrated that you can see and well-appreciate the need to strive for a realistic perspective. But just the opposite is apparent with PTBI.

It is a constant struggle. But if we were all to do it, I think that except for one or two lesser beings we would realise that we have a lot of common ground and that the opposing views, when expressed in a moderate manner, are not that outrageous and can be meaningfully debated, instead of the same absurdities being repeated over and over again.

End of conflict-resolution psychoanalysis psychobabble :>)

@mickijo:

LOL, do you really think Aborigine children being kidnapped by whites cared who invented the light-bulb, which is now mostly made in China anyways?

Do you think inventing the light-bulb justifies your genocides?

@maracas:

There are great division and hatred within East Timorese society. Indonesia took-over that half-island at invitation of anti-communist groups like APODETI, KOTA, and Trabhalista (Balibo Declaration). Now, after East Timor was given independence by President Habibie, East Timor quickly returned to civil war between ethnic-"westerners" (loromonu) and "easterners" (lorosae) since the lorosae (particularly the corrupt Portuguese-speaking elite) discriminates and oppresses the loromonu. When unarmed loromonu protested, the lorosae-dominated military barbarically shot them down like animals.

Let East Timor return to chaos and ethnic-warfare, Indonesia should fortify the border to ensure East Timorese troubles do not spread into Indonesian territory.

@rogindon:

Indonesia is a non-bloc country with a neutrality-based foreign policy, we are both friends with USA/Western world and good mates with Iran/Middle Eastern countries.

@Ludwig:

"A couple of posters on this thread seem to be so fundamentally polarised that nothing can get them to see things in a balanced manner. They are just the sort of people that have a tendency to deliberately beat up the views of those with whom they disagree, or even lie straight-faced at times."

So you are guaranteeing that extremist people like Perseus, Philo, and maracas represents only a lunatic fringe of Australian society, and overwhelming majority of Australians wish ill upon Indonesian territorial integrity?

"End of conflict-resolution psychoanalysis psychobabble"

Any attempt by Australia to question Indonesian national integrity can only result in one thing: INCREASING HATRED and CONTEMPT for Australia amongst Indonesians. Every action will have a reaction.

Just like if Indonesians question the right of whites to live in Australia makes you folks emotionally imbalanced.

EDIT: "and overwhelming majority of Australians wish ill upon Indonesian territorial integrity?"

This should be "and overwhelming majority of Australians DO NOT wish ill upon Indonesian territorial integrity?"

Ludwig,
It's OK. Yes some opinions in this forum are worthy reading and responding, others are not.

"However in Papua the repatriation of Javanese and other transmigrants and the relocation of the rest to other parts of Indonesia would not be all that difficult, if it came to the crunch."
Not so. Indonesia already has more displaced people, so much more than the govt can handle. The East Timorese ex-refugees (tens of thousands of them) in West Timor remain a big problem that cannot be solved yet. We do not need more displaced people. This is not our main concern, though.

"The integrity of Indonesia would not be threatened. Who is to say that they would all have to go anyway if Papua did vote for self-rule? It is thus a totally different situation."

Say who? For example, the separation of East Timor has caused a similar desire for freedom in West Timor. At the moment it's tiny and unsignificant, but who knows. We also have Aceh problem.

Look, we did hear a hearsay about a grand design to dismantle Indonesia into several smaller states. At first I thought that's just hearsay and fiction, but there are reasons to believe that there are solid grounds for it. Example
http://www.henrythornton.com/article.asp?article_id=3989

Perhaps in the few decades Indonesia will be wiped out of worldmap (I hope not), and then you have new smaller states as neighbors.
Perhaps there will emerge an Islamic caliphate in South East Asia which include southern Thailand, Malaysia, southern Philippines, and with what is left of former Indonesia.

Until the imaginary day come, we will fight until the last drop for every inch of Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia.

"What do you have to say about my assertion that the 1969 referendum was a total sham, bearing in mind that the blame has to be shared between Indonesia, the US and the UN? Can you assert that it was fair and proper? If not, why shouldn’t it be reheld?"

Maybe you are true. But we just cannot change the past. Just like you can't change your history with the Aborigines.

Ningtyas

Thankyou for the full response.

However, you did not really give an answer to the last point.

If you cannot assert that the 1969 referendum was fair and proper, which you have indicated that you can’t, then why shouldn’t it be reheld?

“But we just cannot change the past.”

But you can make amends. And a whole lot more easily than Australia can with Aborigines. It is a very different situation to that with Australia’s Aborigines, as previously explained.

This appears to be the crux of the issue.

Why Indonesia would fight so hard (“until the last drop for every inch”) to hold on to West Papua, when they could very easily let it go if its people wished it to be so, or if international outrage about the treatment, or perceived treatment, of West Papuans became sufficiently great.

I cannot see that releasing West Papua would lead to an escalation of further strife in Aceh or Ambon of West Timor.

Why not give the West Papuans the right to self-determination? (I am not in favour of independence, Australian rule or PNG rule any moreso than Indonesian rule, but I certainly am in favour of the people having their say)

And further, can you tell me why it would be so bad if Indonesia did break up into about ten nations? (as per the Henry Thornton article)

The most racist comments here have been made by "Proud to be Indonesian" and this is embarassing for intelligent Indonesians. He made outrageously racist statements, and inflamatary hateful generalisations that all Australians don't respect Indonesian integrity.

If Australians didn't respect Indonesian integrity, then why did more Australians gave to the victims of the Tsumanis, within Indonesian territory than any other people from any other country. He attacks Australians because of the colour of our skin, like they did to the Chinese in the 1970s.

In his horrid arguement, he continues: using hateful upper case labelling WHITES as "evil". Then, in this stupid arguement, everyone else except Indonesians are racists.

How do you explain the Inodesian massacre of Chinese in the 1970s under the Sukarno revolution? Thousands of Chinese died because Indonesians hated Chinese so much. A similar problem nearly happened in the 1990s when Megawhatti was being elected. You people must really hate chinese, even if you claim that everyone else is racist except you. This is nothing to be so smug, holier than thou, or proud of.

I don't think Australia should facilitate referenda in West Papua and Arche. These referenda are for the people to decide legitimately, should be done by the United Nations with Australia taking a low profile, since Indonesia is so inflamatory and racist towards Australians.

The bottom line is, we must allow West Papuans into Australia and listen to their stories of persecution with some political independence. Protecting basic human rights is not offensive in diplomacy, it is a humanitarian responsibility. Turning them into political pawns is a travesty. It only shows fear towards Indonesia, not respect or cooperation. Leave the soveriegnty of West Papua to the United Nations if the West Papuans want referendums. Leave racism out of this, and Australia needs to keep its distance, independence and indifference if Indonesia wants to play games and bash inflamatory accusations.
When the Volcanoe explodes, who do you think will help Indonesia?

Clarification of my last post. Paragraph seven should read as a question: “Why would Indonesia fight so hard…….?”

Further to the my question on why Indonesia is apparently so determined not to allow any parts of it to split off:

Why wouldn’t Indonesia want awful trouble-spots to leave the nation? What is point of holding on to them? Wouldn’t there be greater harmony in the region if they got what they wanted? Would the core of Indonesia: Java, or the country as a whole suffer as a result?

I am not in favour of the split-up of Indonesia. I just ask these questions in the interests of healthy debate.

@saintfletcher:

And there was never "Inodesian massacre of Chinese". This only exists in your imagination. There was anti-communist purge in 1960s since these godless commies tried to violently overthrow the govt under order of Peking and Moscow, not once but twice. We all know what kinds of slaughterhouse gulags commies will built should Indonesia fell to their hands. Indonesian communist party actually barred ethnic-Chinese from membership, so they escape from the counter-revolution.

There was riots in 1998 due to Chinese monopoly of economy due to preferential treatment they received under Suharto. This is similar with economic-based anti-Chinese riots in Australia in 1850s-60s when Australians were still poor illiterate people. Now, after Suharto fell, anti-native economic discrimination was lifted and no more anti-Chinese violence ever occured since.

LOL, I couldn't care less whether Australians has white, black, red, purple, or magenta-coloured skin. I am merely showing the dark dark history of white racist violence towards other races. You are just angry because I've exposed this uncomfortable truth, particularly the despicable genocide against Aborigines. I know truth hurts, but it must be told :-)

"I don't think Australia should facilitate referenda in West Papua and Arche"

The best solution is for Australia to 100% keep out completely out of Indonesian affairs aka MYOB. BTW, as Papua is already acknowledged as part of Indonesia by two UN resolutions based on the valid 1969 UN-supervised referendum, UN has zero authority over Papua or any other part of Indonesia. ;-)

@Ningtyas:

You can see how these whites always see any attempt by us to reason with them as sign of weakness. You patiently seek to reason with Ludwig, instead this guy treat you with contempt by questioning the right of Indonesia to exist!

And this same guy went nuts when we question the illegal white theft of Aboriginal land! What a perverse hypocrite! It is clear we must never trust Australians. There is no need to have relations with back-stabbing Australians wish ill for our country.

PTBI said on 12 May (above) re my alleged:
"claim that Australia is capable to invade Indonesia, the largest archipelago in the world with 20,000 islands stretchting the distance from Ireland to Iran with 250 million-strong population, is hilarious joke. Even US military, the strongest in the world, failed to defeat Iraq, a small and relatively simple country. Indonesians will easily repluse any Australian invaders, we will make a bloody mincemeat out of Australian soldiers, and our soldiers will make large collections of dead Diggers' ears."

Couple of points. I did not say that we could invade Indonesia. Foolish, futile & fatal, that wd be. I did say Australia's military "electronic warfare capabilities would shut down Indon military communications, thus decapitating TNI from the outset. Our Air Force could remodel central Jakarta; our navy cd close the Malaccca and Sunda straits, sinking the Indon Navy in the process; our Army would probably not even need to fight." I stand by that analysis, which does not involve invasion.

I was appalled by the reference to "large collections of dead Diggers' ears." I know that a New Zealand soldier killed in E. Timor was mutilated in this fashion, allegedly by the "militia" which trashed the country and committed atrocities against the population. Thanks, PTBI, for telling the world that this is a practice of elements in TNI itself. You reveal these elements, who do not even show respect to enemy dead, to be half-civilised barbarians. How wd you like it if TNI dead were each buried with a pork chop? That wd be an equally uncivilised and barbarous thing to do. Have we really come to this?

@ Ludwig,
Indonesians do not allow their parts split off, because they are not yet an imaginary futuristic society who regularly asking provincial people if they like joining or prefer to build a new state.

For citizen like me, freedom for Papuans okays, for Acehneses okays, Sundanese, Buginese, Balinese etc. And you need thousands states in Indo for people to have their freedom totally formalised.

For now, maintaining one shared, established identity "indonesia" is just a lot easy for us, instead of inventing the other ones, that would just create uncertainty in the future. That's why mostly Indonesians are so reluctant to let West Papuans go. Papuans independence probably will motivate other groups to build new states and more, and we only end up with thousands failed states with thousands separatists. And you will see that Java and Javanese will suffer less anarchic periods because they are culturally mature for developing a society, but many places outside Java will suffer constant conflicts due to different indentities and interests and lack of leadership.

But I feel some Australians are so eager to see disintegrated Indonesia, just because failed states competing each other will make them feel more secure, instead of seeing huge, united Indonesia. If this is true, then they are no less racist than their ancestors in their past history, and we are happy to be their enemy.

Jelata

Can you please clarify:

“For citizen like me, freedom for Papuans okays,….”

Are you saying that it would be alright by you if Papuans, or a few significant groups, received independence, just as long as it didn’t trigger other provincial peoples to push harder for independence? You could divide Indonesia into perhaps hundreds. Bearing that in mind, would five or ten independent states be so bad?

It may be better to hold it all together as one state or it may not. If it requires a repressive Suharto-style regime to keep peoples within Indonesia who really don’t want to be there, or to keep some groups from strongly protesting and causing civil strife (or leading to the army causing civil strife - whichever way you want to look at it) then you have a very difficult situation.

Alternatively, as you say, provinces that come under their own rule may not find peace due to power struggles and may risk becoming failed states.

Do you advocate a strong regime with the suppression of uprising or violence by force where necessary, which would probably keep the physical push for secession to a minimum, but which would work to harden some peoples’ resolve to push for secession and thus lead to ongoing unrest…… or do you advocate a minimum of heavy-handed tactics, which will no doubt mean increased uprising from some quarters, but a general increased contentment or tolerance?

It is hellishly difficult and I sympathise with Indonesia. But I feel that a hard and fast dictum of solidarity is not necessarily the right approach. I suggest that the latter option is the better one, and that those provinces that really demand independence be given it…if the separatists really represent the majority of the people, and if they can demonstrate that they can govern themselves and have a healthy trade relationship with Indonesia.

So, I can understand why Indonesia wants to hold on to Papua, quite apart from the farmable land and mineral wealth that exist there. But I will maintain that the Papuans should have the call.

Ludwig
it won't be bad if you learn a bit about Indonesia-Papua history and not making opinion based of half-truth information.
Indonesia is the successor of the Netherland East Indies, and that includes Papua (Western New Guinea). In 1949 there was already a Pro-Indonesian Party founded by Papuans in Papua, named Partai Indonesia Merdeka. Many Papuans were also killed along with other Indonesians to fight the Dutch army in Papua, and they were regarded as "Pejuang Kemerdekaan," (freedom fighter).
You know, when Indonesia enter Papua in 1962, among the first thing Indonesia did was to build a university, that's University of Cendrawasih. Also many Papuan students were sent to many cities in other provinces of Indonesia to get better education and also for jobs.
It's Indonesia who bring the Papuan case to the UN because the Dutch broke it's promise they made in 1949.

Now, you hear many voice that Papuans want independence from Indonesia. But there are a huge numbers of Papuans who want Papua remain in Indonesia, but you don't hear them. You think referendum can be done in a peaceful way, where both sides will be able to live side by side, build their land together and live happily ever after. That's just a fairy tale.

After East Timor, we know better.
There are so many pro-Indonesian East Timorese in West Timor now. They refused the govt offer to be transferred to another island because they still have desire to return to Timor Leste. We hope there will be reconciliation one day in Timor Leste, but now the hope is fading away.
Even East Timorese who fought Indonesia is now divided; the Lorosae and Loromanu become enemy to each other!

Why must divide people into two separate blocks that can never be bridged? That's certainly not our option in Papua.
But you don't care, right? As long as you see Indonesia breaking up, you don't care if so many people would suffer far worse than before.

Right now, probably a majority of native Papuans would support independence if they had the choice. They would see independence as the panacea for all their problems. But it is also true to say that there is no guarantee they would be better off economically. PNG has been independent for over 30 years and has abundant mineral resources, but are they economically better off? That's the question Papuans need to answer. How can they achieve economic progress. But I think we can all agree that the human rights situation needs improvement and that should be the key focus of anyone genuinely wanting to help the Papuan people - not a call for independence.

Proud to be Indonesian,
I often disagree with your opinions or the way you express them, which too extreme in my opinion, however sometimes you do make valid points.
Hypocrite IS the word. I read and read on the genocide of Aboriginal Australia, and speechless to read such a barbaric thing! It's million times worse than what has happened in Papua.
Indeed, we will never accept to be lectured by anyone with regard to human right, when we know what kind of atrocity they have committed.

We read in Australia media that about 100.000 to 300.000 Papuans were killed in Papua as the results of genocide. Australians seem to believe that. But look, even Herman Wanggai the spokeperson of the Papuan asylum seekers in Australia couldnt answer where the so-called 'genocide' actually took place.
It's undeniable that horrible killings actualy took place, committed by both sides, but genocide with such a large scale? It's a bold lie.

I am convinced now that many Australians indeed would be happy to see Indonesia disintegrated. Maybe they think Indonesia is like a cake, it can be sliced into -maybe 8 to 10 slices!
And all the fairy tale about Javanese as the core of Indonesia. Wow! As a non-Javanese Indonesian, I find the claim to be amusing & ridiculous, but they believe that! If you think of it, why then it's Lombok people who demand the central govt to close the Lombok Strait to Australian ships and other ships that serve Australian interest? And remember when we had a dispute with Malaysia over Ambalat, people from many provinces outside Java were so eager to have themselves registered as voluntary fighters if we were to have a war.
I believe that will also be the case with Austraila. Well, no war needed with Australia, and no "close-relations" needed either. I guess Australians would be more than happy to have ties cut with us, just as we would as well. We should protect our national interest from Oz threat!
If you wish to answer, please do so in not-so-extreme manner.

Well you’ve got me Ningtyas. What opinion am I expressing “based of half-truth information.”?

I have said that I am not in favour of the break-up of Indonesia nor necessarily in the independence of West Papua. I am only in favour of West Papuans having an unpressured opportunity to decide whether they want independence.

Thankyou for the brief history. But if things are as congenial between Indonesia and Papua as this suggests, and a high portion of Papuans are happy with it, then why does Indonesia seem terrified of the prospect of an unbiased referendum?

“You think referendum can be done in a peaceful way, where both sides will be able to live side by side, build their land together and live happily ever after. That's just a fairy tale.”

I could just as easily say; you think that a whole province, or a large portion of people within it, can live in harmony with the country that rules it, when they don’t wish to be ruled by it, and are aware that the 1969 referendum was rigged and that a fair referendum is being denied to them. That’s just a fairytale.

I say, hold the referendum. Make sure it is as fair as possible and condoned by the UN. Make sure that all people get the chance to vote, on the condition that they abide by the outcome. Those who will not abide by the result can forego their right have a say.

Then and only then will you have a firm basis for stability.

Why do you think a referendum would divide people into two irreconcilable blocks?

“But you don't care, right? As long as you see Indonesia breaking up, you don't care if so many people would suffer far worse than before.”

Now Ningtyas, this paragraph really is unfortunate, in an otherwise good post.

I appreciate your concern about East Timor. I was amazed when it became independent. However, I don’t think you can relate that situation to West Papua in more than a vague manner. The circumstances are very different.

@Mhoram:

LOL, Australian Navy cannot even prevent thousands of Indonesian boats from fishing in "Australian" waters and landing in Australian soil at will, yet you dream they'll be able to "control" Indonesian waters, the largest archipelago in the world with 20,000 islands stretching the distance of Ireland to Iran? What a joke. Your ships will easily be sunk one-by-one by our submarines should they dare entering our waters. Your planes cannot reach Indonesia from your faraway bases before being detected by our radars, to be easily shot down by our SAMs when they arrive. Our communication will be untouchable as we have our own nine satellites in orbit.

And yes, US soldiers collected teeth and sometimes the skull of dead Japanese soldiers during WWII. They also collect ears of dead VC soldiers during Vietnam War. We are trained for a long time by USA, hence our soldiers will competitively collect dead Diggers' ears should puny Australia dare to invade us. As for your plans to waste delicious porkchops, that would only drive our soldiers to kill more Diggers and collect more ears.

@Ludwig:

Indonesian unity and integrity is final and non-negotiable. This is not open to discussion. We've done a completely free and fair referendum in 1969, as acknowledged by two UN resolutions and by entire world community. No new referendum is necessary as neither the elected representatives of Papuan people from their regional Parliament nor our national government and legislative has asked for it. Even if a referendum is held, Indonesia's victory is assured as today more than half of Papuan population are transmigrants.

BTW, Indonesia do not need any "repression" to control West Papua. There are more soldiers posted in tiny Jakarta than in huge West Papua. Half of Papua's population are 100% loyal transmigrants, while native Papuans always show high participation rates in every Indonesian regional/national elections.

The tiny minority of barbaric Papuan terrorists are "toxic" racists unable to accept people from other races (as your minister Vanstone correctly analyse), akin to the barbaric Nazis who committed genocide on Jews. It is NOT violation of human rights to clamp down on these violent terrorists who murdered those who disagree with them. In fact, it is the obligation of all police and military forces in the world to eliminate these violent groups to protect the people.

For example, UK posts one-third of its army in tiny confines of Northern Ireland to force British rule over unwilling Irish Catholic population. India posts one million soldiers to maintain its rule over Kashmir. Thailand posts 40,000 soldiers in its tiny South to crush separatists there. In comparison with these countries, Papuan separatism is just a joke. No wonder it is unnecessary for Indonesia to post many soldiers in Papua.

OK, PTI thank you for enlightening me on the political side re-communism and the fighting in the Sukarno revolution, and more recently. I guess we only get half the picture here. I know our media is full of propaganda.

I am ashamed of the massacre of the aboriginal people in Australia's history. My grandfather was an interpreter who tried to stop the brutal ways they were killed. He witnessed the traditional "English Huntings" by the rich aristocrats in Western Victoria. (I can't even mention their names now, this is considered defamatory) They used basset hounds, horns and they were not hunting foxes. They hired help who were paid to hold down the aboriginal "game", and the master had the "hunter's privelege" to shoot, or arrow the "nigger's heart" in William Tell hunting style.

The dead were beheaded, and the heads were used as polo balls, in another sport for the wealthy gentlemen. It really was horrible, and my granfather was sickened by what he saw. He made a stand, and he was persecuted brutally as a traiter. He had an entire Government against him. They took his orchid, poisoned his water, and he was absolutely heartbroken, as a moral and religous man: died telling us to hand the stories down the generations. Our family has never recovered.

I am not affraid to talk about it either, and my family are sworn never to forget. I make no apology for being a humanitarian. I hope you understand that. If the UN recognises Irian Jaya, well, then Australia has no right to interfere there. Just like we have no right to interefere with Iraq. We cannot, by international law, invade any country that poses no threat to Australia. This is where John Howard and Tony Blair will end up in a war trial, yet to come. They signed the contract, and one day, they will have to face the music from the UN law courts. We are not above the law. And I don't think we are allowed to interfere.

Nigtyas,
Australians don't necessarily want to break off relations with Indonesia. Paradoxically, it's the Jakarta Lobby in DFAT that encourages anti-Indonesian feeling by trying to cover up Indonesian "oknum" (individual Indonesian criminal) acts against Australian citizens like the killing of the five journalists in 1975 at Balibo and refusing to assist Australians charged with crimes in Indonesia. Indonesians are right to feel betrayed over East Timor because the Jakarta Lobby told them that we loved having them occupy East Timor and then the next day we were sending troops in. DFAT and the Australian Government should be telling it the way it is in a diplomatically appropriate way just like Indonesia does to us - not covering up legitimate differences where they exist. For instance, the Australian media accurately gave an accurate depiction of the Indonesian judicial system during the Corby trial, but it was the Jakarta lobby do-gooders who came along and fabricated the lie that Corby supporters had send a toxic white powder to the Indonesian embassy. We should promote effective people to people ties and ignore our respective governments' lies.

If you can grasp what I'm saying, you will have progressed 50% in your understanding of Aust - Indon relations.

“I am convinced now that many Australians indeed would be happy to see Indonesia disintegrated. Maybe they think Indonesia is like a cake, it can be sliced into -maybe 8 to 10 slices!”

Ningtyas, it seems to me that you are rather desperately trying to convince yourself of this. You WANT to believe the worst! Yes?

You have conceded that the broad-sweeping really strong views that you attributed to Australia in your first post on this thread are indeed held by only a very tiny minority, if at all in Australia.

But you are still thinking in that polarised manner. Australia, the Australian Government, the Australian people, the small section of the populace who care about human rights in West Papua or in Indonesia, the racist minority, even the tiny anti-Indonesian minority….. none of them want to see Indonesia split into multiple nations. Where do you get the idea that they do?

Just because I have raised it for neutral debate on this forum, and Henry Thornton mentioned it in one article, doesn’t mean anyone supports the notion.

I share saintfletcher’s deep concern about the treatment of Aborigines in the 19th century and indeed today. But there is absolutely nothing hypocritical about that concern and concern for human rights in West Papua. In fact you would surely fully expect people who are concerned about humanitarian issues in Papua to be repulsed by Australia’s record.

To call Australia or Australians who care about this stuff hypocritical is just plain wrong, unintelligent and quite frankly, a deliberate perversion of the debate.

PTBI sits right at the whacked-out extremists end of the spectrum. You have acknowledged that he is too extreme. For goodness sake don’t move your position towards his. Strive to keep a level head.

@ ludwig
For me papuans independence is ok. Doesnt it ok for you the Aborigines get their independence? Doesnt it ok for the Aborigines to see white Australians in their independence? Ha ha im no nationalist. Lets divide australians to states, lets divide indonesian to states. States are nothing. Life is everything.

I dont care about Papuans minerals. I dont eat minerals. It this rumour is true, it was our gov and US gov once has signed an evil contract about Papua. It was a sin.

I hope our gov will soon close the mining and make referendum or whatever to make a better Papua. That possibility is open given present situation in Indo. But wait, independece may not good for papua like rogindon said.

What I hope is just all struggles must be held in peaceful manner. No need of violences, shooten guirellas or murdered policemen or dead soldiers. Wanna help? Send doctors, teachers, universities to Papua, not activists. And send doctors and teachers to the Aborigines too, not activists. Most of papuans are peaceful persons and not criminals and not refugees and not activists

Ludwig,
"However in Papua the repatriation of Javanese and other transmigrants and the relocation of the rest to other parts of Indonesia would not be all that difficult, if it came to the crunch."

How many internally dicplaced people you have in your country that you can say that? And Java is an overpopulated island; even dangerous zones around active volcanoes are heavily populated. So, it'd be difficult for Australia but easy for Indonesia, huh?

"And further, can you tell me why it would be so bad if Indonesia did break up into about ten nations?"
It's like questioning me; why it would be so bad if I have my wounded legs amputated? And you are not in favour of the dismembering of my body...

"Clarification of my last post. Paragraph seven should read as a question: “Why would Indonesia fight so hard…….?” "

Nice try. You think contemptuous remarks can be made neutral by adding the question mark?
No. It only changes them into contemptuous questions.

"Ningtyas, it seems to me that you are rather desperately trying to convince yourself of this. You WANT to believe the worst! Yes?
You have conceded that the broad-sweeping really strong views that you attributed to Australia in your first post on this thread are indeed held by only a very tiny minority, if at all in Australia."

Reading Australians views on this forum and the news and browsing internet in the past few days make me realize that it's not as tiny as you try to picture it. And their position against Indonesia is far worse than I previously thought.

"I say, hold the referendum."
Excuse me, why should we listen to you? Who are you?

That's from me.
Maybe you can learn from saintfletcher. He's is able to listen to others in this thread.

@PTBI,
"You patiently seek to reason with Ludwig, instead this guy treat you with contempt by questioning the right of Indonesia to exist!"

Indeed.
They have no idea what Indonesia means for most Indonesians.

@ saintfletcher
Sad to hear your story. Your grandpa will always be a great person for his generations. I think every society has its own diseases and then some of people, would try to cure their diseases so the overwhole culture evolving towards betterment.

As for Indonesia, under military regime we suffered oppression from our own gov. But we dont have race problem here. The oppression were done equally to the Javanese and non Javanese as well, by multirace gov too.

I spent my childhood in a village in central Java. I was among the witnesses of the oppression of our past military regime.

There were many unlucky persons of us, undoubtably Javanese, who had ever been a member of Indonesian Communist Party (PKI). Most of them are just un(formally)educated village farmers and most of them even didnt know that their are the member of the party. They were the member of BTI ,a farmer organisation of PKI, that at the time were just like a usual organisation doing propagandas promising to be their defender.

Since 1965, after the political incident that believed as "coupe de etat" from PKI against Sukarno regime, many of them has been jailed or killed or just missing, and the millions survivors and their children and their grand children even suffered endless discrimination, being the second class citizens who were not allowed vote or become goverment staffs and will get dificulties in whatever matter involving government administration .

Sometimes my father, having access to government officials, helped those people by making fake birt letters or any other letters to clean a child from his/her father sin for being "involved" (terlibat) in PKI, so he/she can be a teacher, for example.

Thank god those days were over. After anarchic periods since 1998, now we have a democratic government. The present and future situation in indonesia wont allow a "true" general to be a president, after our long trauma that we will never forget. We are now a democratic country, we are no threat to your national interest too.

I am inclined to agree Jelata – independence for West Papua may not be the best option. Staying with Indonesia may well be the best option.

“….or whatever to make a better Papua.” “What I hope is just all struggles must be held in peaceful manner.” “Wanna help? Send doctors, teachers, universities to Papua, not activists” “Most of papuans are peaceful persons and not criminals and not refugees and not activists”.

Jelata, we have pretty well full agreement.

I also agree that much more should be done for Aborigines. Our Federal indigenous affairs minister is onto it. It has suddenly becomes a very high-profile national issue. I hope that this translates into real action to alleviate some of the awful problems that are suffered in Aboriginal communities. As for independence for Aborigines, I don’t think that would achieve anything in terms of humanitarian or quality of life issues. You could argue that many indigenous communities in northern Australia have effectively had independence all along.

Cheers

PS I find the contrast between your views and those of the other Indonesians on this thread – PTBI and Ningtyas fascinating

rogindon,
"Australians don't necessarily want to break off relations with Indonesia."
I see. In Indonesia it's real. As read in detik.com a while back, Foreign Ministry's spokesman said that severing diplomatic ties was "an option in the table." It was seriously considered by govt, and was pressured by some of the people.
Australia is such a difficult neighbor; helping us one day and endanger us the next day...

As for East Timor, in the end it's a relief for us in Indonesia. Indonesia has many problems, thank god East Timor is longer one of them.
From now on, any unrest or riot in East Timor will concern Australia more than us. I do hope the best. A stable, peaceful and united East Timor will be good not only for East Timorese, but also for West Timorese who have been burdened by East Timorese refugees in 1975 and 1999. I hope mass exodus will never happen again.

Thank you for briefing me about the Jakarta Lobby in DFAT etc. Lol.
I think the problem is more complicated than that.

If anti-Indonesian feeling in Australia is that strong, why don't you press the govt to just cut ties with Indonesia? Being neighbor does not mean we have to have a close relation, especially when the relations is difficult; or dangerous.

@saintfletcher
you know last year Thailand and Malaysia had a row about 131 Thai asylum seekers in Malaysia. The Malaysian govt and media did not even leak their indentities, let alone let them speak against Thailand publicly. The tension did not escalate.
Meanwhile in Australia those Papuans are allowed to speak publicly against Indonesia, to raise their flag etc. It becomes political campaign and that's unacceptable to us.

Ningtyas

“It's like questioning me; why it would be so bad if I have my wounded legs amputated? And you are not in favour of the dismembering of my body...”

OK. Now I understand just where you are coming from.

“Nice try. You think contemptuous remarks……”

What the? Holy Moses Ningtyas, it was a simple clarification. How can you read anything negative into this? That is some weird response! Wow!!

“Reading Australians views on this forum and the news and browsing internet in the past few days make me realize that it's not as tiny as you try to picture it. And their position against Indonesia is far worse than I previously thought.”

In the past few days! And you come to this conclusion. Don’t you think you need a little broader perspective before you make such a judgement? Wow again!

“Excuse me, why should we listen to you? Who are you?”

Who do we have to be to express views on this forum? We don’t have to be experts. You have expressed views about Australia’s past with Aborigines, but you admitted that you have only just become aware of this issue, and you clearly have developed only a very rudimentary understanding of it. I’m not questioning your right to express views. Don’t question mine.

“Maybe you can learn from saintfletcher. He's is able to listen to others in this thread.”

I am listening very carefully to what you have to say and responding accordingly in a totally proper manner. If that is too much for you to handle, then you can opt out of our debate at any time. That is your choice.

"You patiently seek to reason with Ludwig, instead this guy treat you with contempt by questioning the right of Indonesia to exist!"

Ningtyas, when have I questioned Indonesia’s right to exist or treated you with contempt, or anything of the sort? It is a real pity that you see merit in this absurd statement from PTBI

I would have thought that you Ningtyas or anyone in Indonesia who thinks that they are ‘battling’ against Australian opinion would have relished the opportunity to answer some hard and pertinent questions, and thus fully justify their views. Surely it is in your interest to just answer them at face value and to avoid reading in any interpretations that are not specifically stated. It is in your interests to avoid expressing suspicion, paranoia, overgeneralisations or strong polarisation. These things only serve to weaken one’s arguments, or in PTBI’s case to completely destroy credibility.

If you find the sort of debate that we have been having here objectionable then I ask you, what do you find acceptable?

“As for East Timor, in the end it's a relief for us in Indonesia. Indonesia has many problems, thank god East Timor is longer one of them.”

Yes! Wasn’t this my argument for possibly letting West Papua and Aceh gain independence? It seems that you have contradicted your earlier answer to my query about Indonesia conceding independence to trouble spots, where you wrote: “It's like questioning me; why it would be so bad if I have my wounded legs amputated? And you are not in favour of the dismembering of my body...”

“If anti-Indonesian feeling in Australia is that strong, why don't you press the govt to just cut ties with Indonesia? Being neighbor does not mean we have to have a close relation, especially when the relations is difficult; or dangerous.”

Firstly, anti-Indonesian sentiment is not strong in Australia. Secondly, surely our countries would cut ties only as a last resort. If the relationship becomes difficult, then surely both countries would strive to repair it. Cutting ties only leads to manifestations of suspicions, paranoia, exaggerations and fabrications against each other, or elements within. Even if relations remain cool over the 42 Papuan refugees, there are many other aspects over which it is in the best interest of both countries to maintain a good relationship.

The second half of my reply to PTBI involves our Australian shame towards the treatment of Chinese in the last century during and after the gold rush. I agree that we had Xenophobia and "the yellow peril" propaganda in Australia were so bad in the 6 colonies, they honestly believed that Asians were a threat. We suddenly had all colonies who were perpetual rivals, agree to be a nation with a united military for one united unwritten purpose: The White Australia Policy. So they sent all the Chinese home, and I'm sure this was brutal and most unfair. They also sent all the Kanaks back to Vanuatu and other Islanders to their poverty.

As I mentioned before, our treatment of Aboriginal people will always offend everyone else in this region, just as it offends me.

@PTBI One concern I do have about the idea of Aboriginal States is that Australia would start to look like South Africa under an Apartheit. That would be immediately condemned by the UN, and this is not a good look. I think the American Indians got a better deal with their reservations, especially when they got the right to have their own Casinos, made lots of money, and constructed self sustaining communities. They still had the benefits of US citizenship, with no borders and no apartheit.

I didn't know about the Thai refugees in Malaysia, and how that was managed. We could learn something from that. Maybe the Australian Government has been provocative in sensationalising the West Papuan refugees. They might not have even realised it. Our media is insatiatable.

I thank the comments in this forum, as I am still learning about my own prejudice. Australia simply cannot interfere as the lone ranger, acting as the regional police. The UN will not allow it. It is about time Australia followed UN standards and we would get along with everyone just fine, just like Canada does.

So your grandfather saw a massacre, did he Saintfletcher? This is 2006, how old are you? And when was your grandfather born? And exactly where, and when, in the western districts of Victoria did he see this massacre?

Most reported massacres were fabricated by undisciplined police officers who would juice up their reports of their patrols to make it look like they were "doing their job" when often they just camped by a good fishing hole for a suitable time and returned "in triumph". Massacre stories were a bit like war heroes, it seems there was a lot more of them talked about in the pubs than could ever have been possible on the battlefield.

So how about providing some specifics, eh?

Ahhh Perseus,

Would thou doubtest that paragon of information and not believe that he is a spry fit 100 year old? And that his saintly father, against all odds surviving through some of the toughest times was also a centurion, as was his Grandfather.

Oh ye of so little faith in the longevity of selected species....

Note the hypocrisy of the Australian Government's Regime in actively supporting a 'treaty' with Indonesia to deter West Papuans from fleeing from ACTUAL TNI / KOPASSUS EXCESSES whilst preparing to house 'thousands' of East Timorese in temporary accommodation in the Marrara, Darwin Sporting Stadium who MIGHT flee from East Timor following the Fretilin Conference IF there MIGHT be ongoing unrest as a result of that Conference deliberations which overwhelmingly endorsed Mari Alkatiri's leadership.
The Palestinian election of Hamas dummy spit by the US has parallels with the Australian reaction to Fretilin exercising their new found Independence and rejecting clumsy 'Big Brother' efforts of guided democracy to roll Alkatiri.

Persius, this is really a personal, patronising question! My family is huge. There are many siblings right around the country. We all know what happened to Grandad, and Grandma and my eldest aunt were also witnesses. So were many others in Werribee. We respect our elders in courtesy and we treasured their diaries and letters. It is all there in writing.

How many graves did you dance on for the sake of your sarcasm? Your theory of the police making up stories on the stolen generation is insulting.

@PTBI, what is with these Australians? I dared to listen to an Indonesian. Now the Aussie thugs are attacking me as: "the Kaffer Lover".

My Grandfather owned an orchid behind the Churnside Mansion: Werribee Park. You can look up his land title in the archives. He lived in the 1880s and died in the early 20th century. He was old when he had my mother, had 10 children, mother: the youngest.

Likewise, my mother had 9 children. She was old when she had me: the youngest. I am no "whipper-snapper". Grandad did not poison, shoot Aborigines, and push around the Irish for their selections. But he did lose everything for standing righteously for the Aboriginal people being killed.

Of course, the Churnside’s claimed the orchids with the help of the Victorian Government. They confiscating the property from our "traitorous" family: everything they owned. They expanded their polo fields that were covered in the blood from the beheaded Aboriginal "vermin". The same polo fields frequented by the Royal Family.

These images of blood fields inspired HG Wells, when he studied the massacres in Australia. He was so horrified, he wrote "The War of the Worlds".

So now you know. Those fox hunting paintings at Werribee Park have nothing to do with hunting foxes. The game was about hunting the "niggers" in the style of the fox hunt.

Then you sneer about "saints" because of my tag. I answered your question, now it is my turn. Lets talk about your Grand parents, and let me shame them with unkind innuendos and sarcasm.

You would be pleased to learn, Saintfletcher, that recent changes to the defamation legislation have removed any controls over defaming the dead. So you are free to publish all your documentary evidence. In fact, you were always free to do so if the assertions were capable of substantiation and amounted to "fair comment" on a matter of history. Has your family ever presented your claimed evidence to an historian for proper assessment etc?

At the moment you have only provided hearsay and an assertion that no foxes were hunted in the place portrayed in certain paintings. And you have only given very generalised references to the 1880's yet, most of the Western Districts of Victoria were settled and cleared in the 1850's and 60's.

And it is quite clear that anyone seriously claiming that severed heads were used for Polo has never actually played the game or even attended one. This is not to say that massacres did not happen in a world that, at that time, was primarily "nasty, british and short".

My Great Grandfather was the first to settle in his district (1882)and both Grandfathers were selectors and there is no doubt that the majority of farmers, particularly those on the edge of the settlement envelope, were actually heavily reliant on blackfellas as their most available source of farm labour.

So this demonisation of settlers as indiscriminate killers has no basis in fact. The times were hard, people knew hunger as a constant visitor, and many cracked under the conditions. And the Ivan Millats and Martin Bryants of that time had a more convenient target in their blackfella neighbours.

Perseus my mate,

I did say in general some time ago, that not is all what appears to be seen on the surface. You appear to be intelligent, but maybe sometimes you can not see the forest for the trees - like small spelling errors and out of context comments

Before you get your tits in a twist over what some people say without substantiation, go to this link and read just how easy it really is to adopt, how easy it is not to obtain small scraps of information on how to build a Ford - but wind up with a Skoda ..... but remember it is so very easy to divide and rule, unless you do see the trees OK?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0553266306/sr=8-2/qid=1148272350/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-4307419-6817457?%5Fencoding=UTF8

@Ludwig
The split of East Timor from Indonesia actually agreed by most indonesians who didn't want to see anymore life wasted monthly at those regions for unknown reason. The government didnt get strong opposition to the decision, except from the militaries.

As for Aceh, many Indonesians dont have problem with giving them referendum, but usually they are softening the idea to "special autonomy", just to respect other's sensitivity. And those regions has been cooled down now, and you can see that peace is a reality now there.

West Papua issue is less complex, but it may not be the easier. The Acehnese are in a state that they can actualize the special autonomy given to them, because the people are relatively more educated, skilled and "capable" in managing such chance, and to certain degree make them satisfied. (Since 2001, both provinces got special autonomy).

For now, special autonomy is still questionable if it has made change in Papua. Yearly Jakarta allocates 200 - 300 million USD to the provinces yet I doubt if the money wouldn't vanish to the open air if they couldnt make it work.

Papuan needs solutions on social and cultural issues no less than on political issues. Not necessarily a free state is at the first priority. Independence activists must realize this. And any foreigners must let them grow naturally and find their own science of freedom, not the one they invents and try to market.

@saintfletcher:

Indeed, it is very sad that many white Australians continue to deny the reality of genocide experienced by the Aborigines. It is even sadder many supposedly "educated" whites here seek to justify this genocide and theft of land, by demonising and dehumanising all Aborigines as uncivilised child-abusers who don't "deserve" Australia, the land they've lived on for 50,000 years.

Do not despair, my friend. Disregard those who seek to bully and assault you, continue thy honorable efforts to disclose the truth of white genocide against Aborigines! So no more such genocide can be repeated! Never again!

@Ludwig:

East Timor was not part of Netherlands Indies. Indonesia's original claim in 1945 is on all territories of old Netherlands Indies territory. We will never allow any separatism within these borders. This is final and not negotiable, a basic tenet of our nationhood that we will defend to our last drop of blood and our last gasp of breath. On territories outside old Netherlands Indies, we are free to annex and expel them from our republic according to needs of the times (in case of East Timor, to prevent establishment of communist state there during Cold War).

You really want to protect our national interests?

DON"T LET IEMMA SELL THE SNOWY.

1. Indonesia/Jakarta are cuddly puppies compared to Iemma and Howard who for short term gains are willing to sell our precious water to Monsanto/Soylent company. They have the will to own our food and water. Where will we be then eh? We already know from the X City Funnel Tunnel that the Government promise of regulating the OWNERS of the Snowy is a hollow ruse. Ex Individual Government officials at the highest level are already on the board of these large global ccorporations. What about current ministers? They cannot be trusted.

2. Investors are today being plied in the Herald with Prospectuses for the Snowy Sale. DON"T DO IT. JUST DON"T DO IT. Apart from the immorality of selling your rights along with your country, how do you expect to make long term passable dividends when the corporations in question are free to grant whatever obscene Macquarie Bank style bonuses to themselves that they see fit.

Oh p-lease Persius! Now you are really speaking nonsense. You have forgotten something. My Grandfather was also a settler. Did I demonise him, or some of his best mates? They were just farmers, mate. Unfortunately, too many of their rivals were also murderers, and the majority were in control of the Government at that time.

Also, I never said that the Churnsides never hunted foxes and a few rabbits. That is not the point. It is just that they also shot Aboriginal people as well.

The time-frame that you gave for land clearing is irrelevant. It was happening before this period, and after. It was still happening at the start of the 20th century.

We were a family charged with "treason". You only believe what you read? At the time, treason was a jailable offense. Who do you think would publish articles under these conditions at that time? That is why we have oral history. Even Israel accepts oral history to tell stories of the holocaust. Are you going to say that didn't exist either? Your rationale is outrageus.

We have volumes of diaries and written documents, and letters that tell this story. We refuse to publish this without the permission of the Aboriginal elders. The names of those murdered were mentioned as well as the names of the murderers, as Grandad knew them all personally. The Elders always insisted on silence as they never trusted the colonial authorities, even when it was murder. He followed their laws, not colonial the laws. The colonial troopers never listened anyway and were known to destroy evidence. We are not going to break those laws either. Unless you are Aboriginal, you are not capable of understanding. Dead people are a tricky issue.

I have no reason to question your grandfather from the information you have given me. I can only assume they were decent people unless I have information to prove otherwise.

I have grown to be proud of PTBI. We appear to have similar frustrations towards those that are incapable of seeing things from various points of view.

Before you reply, please stop, and reconsider what you write, as a point of relevance. The topic is about Indonesia and its Islands, and how Australia responds to this. Please move on. Lets talk about the topic, not my family archives. Admitedly, there is an arguement of Australian prejudice. There could be some prejudice from both the Australian Government point of view as well as the Indonesian Government point of view. Maybe not. There could be a different point of view larger than both. The topic should now shift back to the original article. We have established that our Indonesian writers and Australian writers care about human rights. That is postitive. We are also learning about each other. Lets expand on this. Wouldn't it be interesting if our Governments were actually reading this?

Indonesia is not the problem.

Slack, too long in the tooth Australian Governments are.

This is clear from John Howard's failure to listen to majority opinion over the Sale of the Snowy.

John Howard has stated the main aim of the sale is to privately fund upgrades to Snowy infrastructure.

HE implicitly assures us that since it is private enerprise, competition will drive markets. He assumes prices of water and electricity will be fair at all times. However, because there is NO competition in this dubious Government-private partnership, the eventual majority shareholder company (most likely Monsanto/Soylent companies) can and will by law, do as they please and gouge consumers. I assume Howard will say he can legislate to protect communities against this inevitable public gouging. However as seen in the NSW Cross City Funnel there is NO reasonable expectation that his or any other government will be able to protect the public or the environment for that matter. Their only recourse, as in NSW is a public buy back of the Snowy at an onerous cost to taxpayers.

In fact there would be some incentive for likely owners to facilitate such a situation and reap huge windfalls without much exertion.

John Howard loves the concept of Private enterprise management of Public assets because it makes his job easy. He only thinks of himself as usual. He has not thought the situation through and it is up to us who have thought about it to take action to prevent the Snowy sale. I have analysed what is taking place in similar situations around the world (eg Montana dams) and in NSW and the rest of Australia. Privatisation in public infrastructure where there is a clear monopoly and no legal safeguards are NOT in the public interest and always end in unmitigated disaster.

An alternative would be to put riders on the sale that allow public scrutiny of environmental and pricing strategies at all times throughout the life of the acquisition. Mind you, in that case, no one would want it!

To Saintletcher et al and those frustrated and expending energy on Perseus, see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/user.asp?id=8383. Note the javelin rattlings reminiscent of Cervantes' Don Quixote's tiltings.

Bring on the ALP, Howard and the coalition can look you in the eye and say with a straight face the earth is flat. Go back 15 to 20 years and no one liked Howard because they could see straight though him. Next time you have that vote in front of you, vote 1 labor or geens , democrates, independent. I would rather a sensible 15yo run this country than the current Libs and Nats. They continue to sell off all public assets even when the people say don't.

Dear Interest rate voters, your vote is the reason for this current mob of Cowards. Howard does not control interest rates.

Work Choices is going to cost 500 million+ to implement, A real leader would of spent that on renewable energy and childcare.

Don Quixote indeed. I know a windmill is a windmill, and a monster is a monster, and I think the Dutch, the experts on windmills, in Indonesia might have discussed with people there what a windmill does, and what a monster does, and not to confuse the two...

I am hoping that the generation of discussion here is like the windmill, as they are useful. When people get paranoid and start shooting at the productive windmill, seeing monsters that don't exist, like Don Quixote, then we play a loser's game. Interesting to mention Don Quixote. An heroic Spanish legend, but not exactly productive.

I don't know how the Snowy River issue visited this page, but for an update, John Howard changed his mind on this, and it was actually the ALP State Premier Morris Iemma, that fumed in anger that the sale was dropped by John Howard. Now Morris Iemma looks like the monster, and the windmill is just a hydroelectric power station on the Snowy River. Who is Don Quixote? John Howard or Morris Iemma? Do they both curse at monsters that don't exist?
Meanwhile, back to Indonesian relations, some want to stay on topic....