@mickijo:

LOL, do you really think Aborigine children being kidnapped by whites cared who invented the light-bulb, which is now mostly made in China anyways?

Do you think inventing the light-bulb justifies your genocides?

@maracas:

There are great division and hatred within East Timorese society. Indonesia took-over that half-island at invitation of anti-communist groups like APODETI, KOTA, and Trabhalista (Balibo Declaration). Now, after East Timor was given independence by President Habibie, East Timor quickly returned to civil war between ethnic-"westerners" (loromonu) and "easterners" (lorosae) since the lorosae (particularly the corrupt Portuguese-speaking elite) discriminates and oppresses the loromonu. When unarmed loromonu protested, the lorosae-dominated military barbarically shot them down like animals.

Let East Timor return to chaos and ethnic-warfare, Indonesia should fortify the border to ensure East Timorese troubles do not spread into Indonesian territory.

@rogindon:

Indonesia is a non-bloc country with a neutrality-based foreign policy, we are both friends with USA/Western world and good mates with Iran/Middle Eastern countries.

@Ludwig:

"A couple of posters on this thread seem to be so fundamentally polarised that nothing can get them to see things in a balanced manner. They are just the sort of people that have a tendency to deliberately beat up the views of those with whom they disagree, or even lie straight-faced at times."

So you are guaranteeing that extremist people like Perseus, Philo, and maracas represents only a lunatic fringe of Australian society, and overwhelming majority of Australians wish ill upon Indonesian territorial integrity?

"End of conflict-resolution psychoanalysis psychobabble"

Any attempt by Australia to question Indonesian national integrity can only result in one thing: INCREASING HATRED and CONTEMPT for Australia amongst Indonesians. Every action will have a reaction.

Just like if Indonesians question the right of whites to live in Australia makes you folks emotionally imbalanced.

EDIT: "and overwhelming majority of Australians wish ill upon Indonesian territorial integrity?"

This should be "and overwhelming majority of Australians DO NOT wish ill upon Indonesian territorial integrity?"

Ludwig,
It's OK. Yes some opinions in this forum are worthy reading and responding, others are not.

"However in Papua the repatriation of Javanese and other transmigrants and the relocation of the rest to other parts of Indonesia would not be all that difficult, if it came to the crunch."
Not so. Indonesia already has more displaced people, so much more than the govt can handle. The East Timorese ex-refugees (tens of thousands of them) in West Timor remain a big problem that cannot be solved yet. We do not need more displaced people. This is not our main concern, though.

"The integrity of Indonesia would not be threatened. Who is to say that they would all have to go anyway if Papua did vote for self-rule? It is thus a totally different situation."

Say who? For example, the separation of East Timor has caused a similar desire for freedom in West Timor. At the moment it's tiny and unsignificant, but who knows. We also have Aceh problem.

Look, we did hear a hearsay about a grand design to dismantle Indonesia into several smaller states. At first I thought that's just hearsay and fiction, but there are reasons to believe that there are solid grounds for it. Example
http://www.henrythornton.com/article.asp?article_id=3989

Perhaps in the few decades Indonesia will be wiped out of worldmap (I hope not), and then you have new smaller states as neighbors.
Perhaps there will emerge an Islamic caliphate in South East Asia which include southern Thailand, Malaysia, southern Philippines, and with what is left of former Indonesia.

Until the imaginary day come, we will fight until the last drop for every inch of Negara Kesatuan Republik Indonesia.

"What do you have to say about my assertion that the 1969 referendum was a total sham, bearing in mind that the blame has to be shared between Indonesia, the US and the UN? Can you assert that it was fair and proper? If not, why shouldn’t it be reheld?"

Maybe you are true. But we just cannot change the past. Just like you can't change your history with the Aborigines.

Ningtyas

Thankyou for the full response.

However, you did not really give an answer to the last point.

If you cannot assert that the 1969 referendum was fair and proper, which you have indicated that you can’t, then why shouldn’t it be reheld?

“But we just cannot change the past.”

But you can make amends. And a whole lot more easily than Australia can with Aborigines. It is a very different situation to that with Australia’s Aborigines, as previously explained.

This appears to be the crux of the issue.

Why Indonesia would fight so hard (“until the last drop for every inch”) to hold on to West Papua, when they could very easily let it go if its people wished it to be so, or if international outrage about the treatment, or perceived treatment, of West Papuans became sufficiently great.

I cannot see that releasing West Papua would lead to an escalation of further strife in Aceh or Ambon of West Timor.

Why not give the West Papuans the right to self-determination? (I am not in favour of independence, Australian rule or PNG rule any moreso than Indonesian rule, but I certainly am in favour of the people having their say)

And further, can you tell me why it would be so bad if Indonesia did break up into about ten nations? (as per the Henry Thornton article)

The most racist comments here have been made by "Proud to be Indonesian" and this is embarassing for intelligent Indonesians. He made outrageously racist statements, and inflamatary hateful generalisations that all Australians don't respect Indonesian integrity.

If Australians didn't respect Indonesian integrity, then why did more Australians gave to the victims of the Tsumanis, within Indonesian territory than any other people from any other country. He attacks Australians because of the colour of our skin, like they did to the Chinese in the 1970s.

In his horrid arguement, he continues: using hateful upper case labelling WHITES as "evil". Then, in this stupid arguement, everyone else except Indonesians are racists.

How do you explain the Inodesian massacre of Chinese in the 1970s under the Sukarno revolution? Thousands of Chinese died because Indonesians hated Chinese so much. A similar problem nearly happened in the 1990s when Megawhatti was being elected. You people must really hate chinese, even if you claim that everyone else is racist except you. This is nothing to be so smug, holier than thou, or proud of.

I don't think Australia should facilitate referenda in West Papua and Arche. These referenda are for the people to decide legitimately, should be done by the United Nations with Australia taking a low profile, since Indonesia is so inflamatory and racist towards Australians.

The bottom line is, we must allow West Papuans into Australia and listen to their stories of persecution with some political independence. Protecting basic human rights is not offensive in diplomacy, it is a humanitarian responsibility. Turning them into political pawns is a travesty. It only shows fear towards Indonesia, not respect or cooperation. Leave the soveriegnty of West Papua to the United Nations if the West Papuans want referendums. Leave racism out of this, and Australia needs to keep its distance, independence and indifference if Indonesia wants to play games and bash inflamatory accusations.
When the Volcanoe explodes, who do you think will help Indonesia?

Clarification of my last post. Paragraph seven should read as a question: “Why would Indonesia fight so hard…….?”

Further to the my question on why Indonesia is apparently so determined not to allow any parts of it to split off:

Why wouldn’t Indonesia want awful trouble-spots to leave the nation? What is point of holding on to them? Wouldn’t there be greater harmony in the region if they got what they wanted? Would the core of Indonesia: Java, or the country as a whole suffer as a result?

I am not in favour of the split-up of Indonesia. I just ask these questions in the interests of healthy debate.