Ningtyas

“It's like questioning me; why it would be so bad if I have my wounded legs amputated? And you are not in favour of the dismembering of my body...”

OK. Now I understand just where you are coming from.

“Nice try. You think contemptuous remarks……”

What the? Holy Moses Ningtyas, it was a simple clarification. How can you read anything negative into this? That is some weird response! Wow!!

“Reading Australians views on this forum and the news and browsing internet in the past few days make me realize that it's not as tiny as you try to picture it. And their position against Indonesia is far worse than I previously thought.”

In the past few days! And you come to this conclusion. Don’t you think you need a little broader perspective before you make such a judgement? Wow again!

“Excuse me, why should we listen to you? Who are you?”

Who do we have to be to express views on this forum? We don’t have to be experts. You have expressed views about Australia’s past with Aborigines, but you admitted that you have only just become aware of this issue, and you clearly have developed only a very rudimentary understanding of it. I’m not questioning your right to express views. Don’t question mine.

“Maybe you can learn from saintfletcher. He's is able to listen to others in this thread.”

I am listening very carefully to what you have to say and responding accordingly in a totally proper manner. If that is too much for you to handle, then you can opt out of our debate at any time. That is your choice.

"You patiently seek to reason with Ludwig, instead this guy treat you with contempt by questioning the right of Indonesia to exist!"

Ningtyas, when have I questioned Indonesia’s right to exist or treated you with contempt, or anything of the sort? It is a real pity that you see merit in this absurd statement from PTBI

I would have thought that you Ningtyas or anyone in Indonesia who thinks that they are ‘battling’ against Australian opinion would have relished the opportunity to answer some hard and pertinent questions, and thus fully justify their views. Surely it is in your interest to just answer them at face value and to avoid reading in any interpretations that are not specifically stated. It is in your interests to avoid expressing suspicion, paranoia, overgeneralisations or strong polarisation. These things only serve to weaken one’s arguments, or in PTBI’s case to completely destroy credibility.

If you find the sort of debate that we have been having here objectionable then I ask you, what do you find acceptable?

“As for East Timor, in the end it's a relief for us in Indonesia. Indonesia has many problems, thank god East Timor is longer one of them.”

Yes! Wasn’t this my argument for possibly letting West Papua and Aceh gain independence? It seems that you have contradicted your earlier answer to my query about Indonesia conceding independence to trouble spots, where you wrote: “It's like questioning me; why it would be so bad if I have my wounded legs amputated? And you are not in favour of the dismembering of my body...”

“If anti-Indonesian feeling in Australia is that strong, why don't you press the govt to just cut ties with Indonesia? Being neighbor does not mean we have to have a close relation, especially when the relations is difficult; or dangerous.”

Firstly, anti-Indonesian sentiment is not strong in Australia. Secondly, surely our countries would cut ties only as a last resort. If the relationship becomes difficult, then surely both countries would strive to repair it. Cutting ties only leads to manifestations of suspicions, paranoia, exaggerations and fabrications against each other, or elements within. Even if relations remain cool over the 42 Papuan refugees, there are many other aspects over which it is in the best interest of both countries to maintain a good relationship.

The second half of my reply to PTBI involves our Australian shame towards the treatment of Chinese in the last century during and after the gold rush. I agree that we had Xenophobia and "the yellow peril" propaganda in Australia were so bad in the 6 colonies, they honestly believed that Asians were a threat. We suddenly had all colonies who were perpetual rivals, agree to be a nation with a united military for one united unwritten purpose: The White Australia Policy. So they sent all the Chinese home, and I'm sure this was brutal and most unfair. They also sent all the Kanaks back to Vanuatu and other Islanders to their poverty.

As I mentioned before, our treatment of Aboriginal people will always offend everyone else in this region, just as it offends me.

@PTBI One concern I do have about the idea of Aboriginal States is that Australia would start to look like South Africa under an Apartheit. That would be immediately condemned by the UN, and this is not a good look. I think the American Indians got a better deal with their reservations, especially when they got the right to have their own Casinos, made lots of money, and constructed self sustaining communities. They still had the benefits of US citizenship, with no borders and no apartheit.

I didn't know about the Thai refugees in Malaysia, and how that was managed. We could learn something from that. Maybe the Australian Government has been provocative in sensationalising the West Papuan refugees. They might not have even realised it. Our media is insatiatable.

I thank the comments in this forum, as I am still learning about my own prejudice. Australia simply cannot interfere as the lone ranger, acting as the regional police. The UN will not allow it. It is about time Australia followed UN standards and we would get along with everyone just fine, just like Canada does.

So your grandfather saw a massacre, did he Saintfletcher? This is 2006, how old are you? And when was your grandfather born? And exactly where, and when, in the western districts of Victoria did he see this massacre?

Most reported massacres were fabricated by undisciplined police officers who would juice up their reports of their patrols to make it look like they were "doing their job" when often they just camped by a good fishing hole for a suitable time and returned "in triumph". Massacre stories were a bit like war heroes, it seems there was a lot more of them talked about in the pubs than could ever have been possible on the battlefield.

So how about providing some specifics, eh?

Ahhh Perseus,

Would thou doubtest that paragon of information and not believe that he is a spry fit 100 year old? And that his saintly father, against all odds surviving through some of the toughest times was also a centurion, as was his Grandfather.

Oh ye of so little faith in the longevity of selected species....

Note the hypocrisy of the Australian Government's Regime in actively supporting a 'treaty' with Indonesia to deter West Papuans from fleeing from ACTUAL TNI / KOPASSUS EXCESSES whilst preparing to house 'thousands' of East Timorese in temporary accommodation in the Marrara, Darwin Sporting Stadium who MIGHT flee from East Timor following the Fretilin Conference IF there MIGHT be ongoing unrest as a result of that Conference deliberations which overwhelmingly endorsed Mari Alkatiri's leadership.
The Palestinian election of Hamas dummy spit by the US has parallels with the Australian reaction to Fretilin exercising their new found Independence and rejecting clumsy 'Big Brother' efforts of guided democracy to roll Alkatiri.