Hi all

MzzDermeanor (post 6:41:06 PM 12/3/06)

"The negativity against Muslim people is ... ill-informed.". Where does that absurd statement come from? Have you ever held long residency in a Muslim country? Do you dialogue with Muslims at "interfaith meetings"? Do you speak Arabic & listen whilst Muslims talk? Have you read the Qur'an & Ahadith?

Your questions seem rhetorical, but I'm not certain that you know the answers.

Non-Muslim Lebanese, Sudanese Christians, Coptic Egyptians etc have integrated. Non-Muslim Asians mix well. And, because Australia has predominantly been a Christian-based nation, obviously a Christian-focussed influx will likely avoid disharmony.

"Someone 'please explain' .. what sort .. Muslim's can't fit into ..". Simply put: a non-Islamic society.

Regards Hillsong: your quote is possibly distorted. I know Snr Ps Brian & Bobbie HOUSTON, & that's not what they preach.

Which branch of the Church of Christ you are refering to? 'Subjugation' of women isn't part of COC policy. You probably heard a sermon on Colossians 3:18-25 & misinterpretted what was said.

Nowhere throughout the Holy Bible does it suggest that women ought to be beaten. The Qur'an, meanwhile, clearly suggests that women are inferior, & can & should be beaten - Suwar (plural of "surah") 2:228, 2:282, 4:34 etc.

Ali, Muhammad's cousin & father-in-law, quotes Muhammad as having said: "Women have 10 'awrah (external female genitals). When she gets married the husband covers 1, & when she dies the grave covers all 10." Vol 22 Hadith 858.

Egalitarianism means all people will be given equal opportunities. That's idealistic, but a 'target'. However, that wrongly assumes that everyone wants equality. Not everyone can be Dr Andy THOMAS - the Australian astronaut.

China isn't mainly Buddhist! It's mainly Atheist/Agnostic. Confucianism, Taoism & Buddhism are the main religions. Buddhism may be dominant with an estimated 50- to 80-million practitioners.

Capital punishment is less-prevalent in a Christian &/or Western societies. It hasn't been eradicated. From memory about 22 American states still execute.

What Christians & Christian-supporters don't realise is that not everyone will treat them equally either.
(13/3/06)

Cheers all

Hi all

Redneck (post 4:28:27 AM 13/3/06)

You're possibly correct that Irfan won't ".. denounce those aspects of Sharia Law .. at odds with Australian law.". But he is one of Australian society's best hopes. I would pray that he does, & I challenge him to do so.

As Christ said: "You will know them by their fruits." Matt 7:20.
(13/3/06)

BOAZ_David (post 8:36:57 AM 13/3/06)

I thought similarly about Redneck's sleeping patterns. He's either a shiftworker or just doesn't sleep. But also note: the OLO 'clock' is on EST.

Sufism was integral with Afghanistan until the anti-Shi'as - the Salaists & Wahhabists - began to assault the indigenous Afghan tolerance of 'spirituality'. That mechanism was the Taliban. Few Muslims have criticised them. That's a concern!

Have you read Khawajah Qutb al-Din MAWDUD's story? A 12th Century Indian Chishti Sufi?

Assassinated Egyptian President Anwar SADAT is believed to have been a Sufi. Militant Muslim ideologists killed him.

"sahih" Muslim said of 'salvation' for women: "Amongst the inmates of Paradise the women should form the minority." English translation, Kitab Al-Riqaq, chapter MCLX, Hadith 6600.

"Had it not been for women, Allah would have truly, truly been worshipped." Kanz-el-Ummal Vol 21 Hadith 825.

If "women are deficient in intelligence, religion & gratitude" - refer 1 Hadith # 301 & 3 Hadith # 826 - & as a consequence their 'husband' instructs, guides & leads them, then what does it says about the wisdom & righteousness of the male?
(13/3/06)

Irfan (post 11:06:11 AM 13/3/06)

I don't always understand "Coach". Maybe he is as you say? Does it matter? But he has a clear knowledge of historical facts since 625AD.
(13/3/06)

SandiM (post 2:14:14 PM 13/3/06)

A good post.

We now need to show our political leaders that the Australian Multicultral Foundation is a fraud. It should be disbanded.
(14/3/06)

Benjamin (post 3:23:49 PM 13/3/06)

Sadly, what you say is true.

The Cronulla-issue has been brewing for more than 20-years. My former-wife & our family stopped attending local parks. Intimidations were observed.

Nor is it isolated to the Sutherland Shire.
(14/3/06)

Cheers all

"This teaching is of a general humanist values and not something uniquely “Koranic”

Australians would exercise philanthropy and compassion with or without knowledge of the Koran, Islam or Mohammed.

Such generosity is within the very nature of men and women everywhere, regardless of the religious mantra to which they may hold allegiance."

---- I agree with you, and I am sure Irfan and many others would too! I think the original article was written in an attempt to show that "Sharia" has at least some values in common with the generic idea of humanist values that we all share here. Perhaps something we can all focus on more in order to bring about this "integration" everyone keeps talking about.

If the values are the same, does it matter where people perceive they come/came from?

Hello Buddy,

Ive mixed with Muslims for 15 years speak a bit of Arabic know Quran and Hadith -Yusuf Ali's the best. Im an Anglo politician in a Muslim area have travelled lived in a Muslim countries and speak some Arabic. Christian and Muslims are not that different Lebanese, Palestinian Syrian etc.

Christians Arabs'integrated'? My Lebanese Christian neighbours etc English wasn't good they didnt invite Aussies over for their get togethers Nor did their children marry out they even marry cousins like Muslims

I heard wives should obey husbands at a Church of Christ meeting women's event at NSW Uni 8 years ago also mixed with an American preacher and his wife occasionally from my childs school they preached this value. They tried to convert me of course! My friends kids go to Hillsong they are VERY exclusive about WHO followers mix with not unlike Muslims.

Muslims husbands and wives are a 'cloak for each other to protect and comfort'The wife is a 'pleasure for her husbands eyes' He is her provider and he should take advice from her'(Koran).

Somewhere in Genesis states adultress women should be killed they didn't even get four witnesses to prove it. The paradoxical rule in Islam needs 4 witnesses its a grave symbolic warning. A husband and wife can swear on Koran against each other that they didn't commit aldultery,punishment will be in the afterlife if it can't be proven. It is up to people to 'dob' themselves in 'real' Islam if not their punished in the hereafter.

'Awrah' means parts of a women/man only a husband and wife can see (not even those of same sex) NOT JUST GENITALS! for women fom breasts to knees.Men navel to knees.

China is generally ancestorworship mixed up with various religions. The largest Muslim pop. in the world is in China and it does has the worst human rights record. Catholic Brazil also shoots street children. America regularly executes minors and marginalised black and poor people, often innocent, particularly in Texas.

Your arguments are ill informed and flawed and emotionally based little unagreeable buddy.

Quick note on laws of Islam-Quran is the main doctrine of Islam it should be followed formost Hadith are additional rulings to be refrred to after the Quran they are recommended to be followed can be optional and some have a 'strong link' others are 'weak' and not reliable. Qutes by Buddy about women are 'weak' hadith. Some Muslims are fervent or have an axe to grind may heed these 'sayings' of Mohammed Some were recorded decades after his death and all knowledgable Muslims know not all are reliable.

Mohammed avoided bloodshed vehemently, He was in battle 2 1/2 TOTAL Avoiding battle where possible Ie. leaving Mecca and going to Medina He had the numbers to fight but chose not to In one campaign his followers dug a ditch around their camp to deter the large enemy whose horses could not pass through - they gave up and went home. He would not execute people that tried to assasinate him saying 'a jew regularly oured garbage over his head when he prayed one day he didn't do it Mohammed was concerned and asked after his welfare - he was sick Mohammed sent his regards sending regards for his recoverysoon'The rubbish dumping stopped

The Arabs have a long history of clan/ blood fued warfare and traditionally revelled in battle and the legends that followed. Islam attempted to stamped this out. Some of the cultural practice persevered and eventually divided Islam into Sunni /Shia it is CULTURE NOT RELIGION. The Quran says to give and be kind to neighbours including Christians Jews and 'idol worshippers'. The qoutes about hating non-believers are out of context. The only allowance for fighting ot hurting a non-Muslim is if they turn you out of your home (palestine for eg.) or turn you away from the religion eg. War All must be treated with kindness even animals anything with eyes has a soul in Islam Christianity only decided women had souls few hundred years ago !
Not all Muslims practice their real religion and as with all religions it is often abused for power and gain.

Tabari IX:115 “The military expeditions (Ghazawat) in which the Messenger personally participated were twenty-six. Some say there were twenty-seven.”

Bukhari:V5B59N512“The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive.”

Bukhari:V4B52N270“Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”

Tabari VII:97 “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”

Tabari VIII:178/Ishaq:550 “Muhammad ordered that certain men should be assassinated even if they were found behind the curtains of the Ka’aba. Among them was Abdallah bin Sa’d [the Qur’an’s first scribe]. The reason that Allah’s Messenger ordered that he should be slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur’an Revelation. Then he apostatized [rejected Islam].”

Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men.”

Tabari VIII:38 “The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims.”

Ishaq:602 “The Apostle ordered Muslims to prepare for a military expedition so that he could raid the Byzantines.”

Ishaq:475 “Allah commanded that horses should be kept for His enemy in the fight so they might vex them. We obeyed our Prophet’s orders when he called us to war. When he called for violent efforts we made them. The Prophet’s command is obeyed for he is truly believed…