also, I am a Christian, I am not Jewish and not a Zionist at all - I think both the Hams Charter and the Liquid Manifesto are extreme documents - but I am a realist, and when presented with such extreme documents I do not see how peace can ever be achieved, unlike an idealist liberalist like yourself who only sees through rose colored glasses - I agree with your vision, but I do not think it is realistic of what can happen, and as reckless as Israel may be in its occupation, Hams targets women and infants, and I do not think it is civilized to do so. and also, I remember the pictures of Palestine celebrating and handing out candy on Sep 11 which I thought was sick - in any event, Palestinians also burnt Danish and other European flags to protest freedom of speech, so given the middle age extreme thinking I don’t think Israel could ever negotiate a peace with them, even if they did step back from the liquid Manifesto.

you may or may not be a Muslim, but I think either way, people need to recognise and confront the problems of muslim gang rapes, and racism by Muslims to non Muslim Australians, not to point the finger, but to work it out so you can get on with it and live in peace together, and not live in a social terror - i mean, just yesterday at Bankstown some thugs starred me down and called me a 'f#@ken Aussie', and let me tell you, they were not chinese, italians, or african sudanese...

B & T, I take it that for you that the crucial thing about convicted rapist, Bilal Skaf, a thoroughly nasty piece of work by any standards, is that he's 'Muslim'? Let's explore that: Is he a believer or Muslim in name only? Is he literate in Arabic? Does he read the Koran? Did he ever attend mosque or prayer meeting? Did he call his victim an 'Aussie slut' because he was asserting an ethnic/religious identity or as an expression of his failure to fit in as an Aussie? Did it come from a feeling of superiority or one of inferiority stemming from a lifetime's exposure to racist insults (wogs/Lebs/terrorists). What was it about his background? Dysfunctional family? Under-parenting? Failed socialisation? Mental retardation? Moronic mates? Peer pressure? Drugs? A no-values, near pornographic, consumerist society? Media, advertising, fashion & music industries that routinely exploit sex? Who knows? Yet for bigots, mental midgets and those with a wider agenda it all reduces simplistically and conveniently to Islam: Muslims are rapists par excellence and it's all down to that terrifying, genetically transmitted cult known as Islam which promotes holy rape war and enjoins its followers to rape, rape, rape, all day long. I suppose that the rape of German women by Russian troops at the end of WW2 reduces to Russian Orthodoxy? The rape of Bosnian Muslims by Serbs to Serbian orthodoxy? [Gosh guys, shouldn't that have been the other way around?] The rape of Chinese by Japanese troops in the 30's to Shintoism? My God, the rapist/killers of Anita Cobby were probably baptised - and look where that led.

I have to humbly apologise to Thor and Benj - the man who raped me was a blue-eyed Anglo. Must try harder. Only be raped by men of 'middle eastern appearance', thus continue denigration of huge religion.

Once again an article about ISRAEL using similar tactics to the HAMAS government has been hijacked into yet another Islam bashing exercise.

On topic: when land is appropriated under the banner of "God said we can do this", trouble is bound to ensue.

BTW I am part Jewish so spare me any anti-semitism. The problem is when people claim they have a divine right to do something. This is clearly problematic whether the 'divine' are Jewish, Muslim, Christian or Kallathumpian.

Not all terrorists are Muslims, nor all rapists.

Thor & Benj - you are not interested in solving problems only escalating hatred against a majority of people who are indeed peaceful.

Your tactics are obvious and nothing short of reprehensible.

Benjamin's comments on Abu Ghraib are entirely predictable and simply beneath contempt. And Thor, Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same. The former is a faith, like Christianity or Islam. The latter is a political movement/ideology commited to the establishment and maintenance of a Jewish state in Palestine, and just as many Christians subscribe to it as Jews. Please, for your own sake, before opening your mouth on the subject of Israel, Palestine & Zionism, do a bit of reading on the subject. Could I suggest that, despite its deficiencies, Peter Rodger's 'Herzl's Nightmare' might be a starting point, or, better still, David Hirst's 'The Gun and the Olive Branch'. Or even Joe Sacco's wonderful graphic narrative, 'Palestine'.

Dear Scout
Part Jewish ? how much ?
on the subject of your sad experience that you related here (thanx for exposing your personal history, it must not have been easy)
.. I sense that some of the momentum which you are criticising (and to a degree quite rightly so) is also stemming from particular personal experiences. Carniflex would be a stand out there.. and Ben with his early upbringing experiences also.. Thor, I don't know about as I've not seen much of a personal nature there.. Perhaps you should consider their own experience in this matter.

On you though, it suprises me that you seem so defensive of womens independance and not needing male protection, when your own experience suggests otherwise. But I won't grind that off topic axe any further here today.

You make a very good point actually, about "God said ....." as applied to human conflict. In regard to Israel/Palestine, I think they are both living in the Old Testament. The Jews have had no reason to step out of that mental outlook, since most of them did not accept Christ as Messiah. The Muslims also deny the true nature of Christ, and the mindset of Islam clearly reflects the days of Joshua etc rather than Christ.

So, in such circumstances, claiming a divine mandate for the land, on either side, will result in rather passionate outbursts of a spectacular nature.

I find myself in a very difficult position re Israel, because I believe absolutely that God is calling them back to the land, yet at the same time, I cannot from my Christian mindset feel comfortable with military conflict to achieve this, yet there seems no other way.

The first instance of possessing the promised land was also an act of judgement. There is no such judgemental authorization for this current re-possessing that I can see.

The Arab/Palestinian reaction is quite understandable in human terms, though in the broader context of history is nothing specially new.

So, Hamas being the epitomy of "Islamic" Fervor is unlikely to bring more of anything but war.

Strewth & Scout

Your continual denial of factual information (and I don't believe anybody said it's Islam that is the cause, it is the culture of Islam & how it views women. Not all Muslims are rapists is obvious, but some, and in a uniquely scary way that we've never seen before, are. No alcohol required, scores of Muslim males willing to join in after recieving a phone call, repeat no alcohol, racially motivated. Do you really deny that a SECTION, repeat not all, of the Muslim community has a problem with the way it views women?) is worrying.

I'll give you an example of how Islam does play a part in the mentality. Well firstly, Sharia courts in Pakistan often hand out punishments BASED ON ISLAMIC LAW where a female member of a clan must be pack raped as punishment for a crime committed by a male of that clan.

And your point about Russians, Chinese raping is evidence for me, because it is only in wartime that our type of societies witness such depravity. What is it about SOME, not all, repeat NOT ALL, Muslim males that lead them to behave this way? Could it be their role models, Sheiks, telling them it's fine?

This actually occurred at a juvenile det.ctr in NSW, where an Islamic Sheik was told to leave after telling a group of Lebanese inmates, five of which were gang-rapists, that in Islam they did nothing wrong, that a woman is just a piece of meat, a baby factory.

You haven't looked into Islam enough if you don't know such views are common. I encourage you to read widely from Muslim womens groups from Pakistan, Iran, that write on the net about such issues they face.