I think the debate has finally advanced.

If firphan has any dignity he won't post his 'muslim haters' or 'armchair nazi' material anymore. He'll join Bashir and work things out.

History is presenting our Aussie Muslims with these leadership opportunities. They should take advantage.

No more silly anti-western were as good as you guys stop persecuting us crap!

Wouldn't agree with everything Bashir said but crikey what a relief a Muslim is actually not afraid to call a spade a spade.

The problem has been named. Now what to do. Important steps include

Muslims getting rid of seditious publications calling on the overthrow of the 'Satanic usurping' of dar-al islam (our parliamentary system) and of sharia.

Muslims protesting against Imams and clerics that want the return of the Caliphate and hate Australian Christian secular values.

Theologians doing critical scholarship on Islamic holy books. Which will hurt but best the pain be felt now rather than let the disease do its worst.

P.s.

Where are our Australian theologians by the way! We really need them now - how many of any note have we produced?

sajo,

I do not hate Muslims per se. Just like you I have met nice Muslims. But I'm certainly anti-Islam.
As for experience and ignorance... I grew up where saying a wrong thing about Mohammed could get me killed.... there was no Muslim tolerance.

Time and again someone meets nice Muslims, reads articles from moderates, then leap to a conclusion that Islam must be good.

Worst, they then cling onto that view, thinking they have substantial experience and knowledge about Islam.

Islam is like a very large zigsaw puzzle, each tiny piece represents a view in Islam (eg. Muslims you've met, articles you've read) and each piece tells a fairly decent story on its own.

But in whole, when the zigsaw puzzle is completed, what you get is a large ugly picture of a demonic beast that devours freedom and democracy, a beast that perpetuates intolerance and narrow-mindedness.

Sure, at an individual person level, Muslims seem like everybody else, they work, tell a joke or two, even drink and womanise. But it is the big picture that tells the truth.

Sure, your opinions may vary, experience may be relative. But truth will be truth no matter where you are:
1. Islam is a ONE-WAY STREET. Once a country turns Islamic, there is no way to turn back.
2. Notwithstanding encouraging articles from Bashir Goth, Islam can never and WILL NEVER be moderated.

Trust me on this.

Lastly, lack of prejudices in no way imples naivety may be a good thing.

There is only one way you can truly defend your religion, or other beleifs. Thats by the example of expression you provide those around you and the world in general. Any other approach is an aggression upon those that don't accept or disagree.

Thats why all monotheistic religions can't defend themselves, resorting to threats of damnation and violence. They can't provide an acceptable example nor expression, because you can't defend the indefensible.

Its worthy to note, with exceptions that from all religious sides, we are getting Bashir bashing. Most non believers have expressed their appreciation of what he is saying and shows how open, accepting and understanding they are of those willing to confront their religious gremlins and face up to the reality of monotheistic expression.

That doesn't mean that they have abandoned their beleifs, but have lost the infantile stance of I'm right and buggar you, my truth is all that counts. Sadly we see how much religious truth counts in its worldly expression, from all sides. You can't take religion in isolation as its all encompassing in its zeal to convert. But you can take a singular decent religious expression and accept it as genuine.

Until someone else can point out any hypocrisy within Bashir, relating to his statements. Then I and believe most other non believers accept him for what he states he is and welcome him into the real world. I expect that I would enjoy discussing many subjects with this man, unlike others that profess to having religious knowledge.

As always the religious blind will find anything to attack with, even if it doesn't exist other than within their mind.

Martin Ibn Warriq, there are many excellent theologians in Australia, but you and others of your ilk, wouldn't recognise nor accept what they say, as your fantasies are beyond redemption. You live in a a religious illusion, created by your failure to see beyond your fears of what you may find if you actually made a truly unbiased study of theology and its history.

st_alk,

Does God need a son but not a wife? Perhaps not. May be God does have a wife but not telling us. So, if you can't understand why God does not need a wife, then you cannot possibly believe in the God.

Is it fair for someone who killed, raped and then enter paradise? A lot of Muslims certainly think so. No matter what evil a Muslim had done, finally dying for Islam (eg. suicide bombing) seems to be a quick albeit a dirty way to paradise.

If you think this is not fair at all. Then perhaps everyone in paradise should be given a number indicating how they got there, amount of good/bad work he had done on earth. This number will be entitlement to priviledges and number of virgins he gets. Those with high privileges will forever humiliate those below them. Those dissatisfy with their number will constantly hassle Allah for an upgrade. There may be forming of groups of 'holiness' re the ugly, good, better and best.

One day Allah's gonna go mad and tell his wife that he's had enough, then GODDESS shall take on responsibility and create Earth_2, makes everyone returns to Earth_2, repeat the cycle to test their faith.

That'd be fun....

I understand in Christianity one does not boast of good deeds. Salvation is God's grace and good deeds are like rags by God's standard... that no one shall boast.

Do you really believe "... this life... is a test of faith..." ??
Does this not completely contradict your notion of fairness? Some people are certainly tested more than others.

U said: "everything bad or good that happens we say thanks GOD"... So thanks be to Allah yet another suicide bomber achieved his mission. His mother and the entire village are rejoicing.

Good article, but not good enough. In fact, it shows the essence of the problem. Nowhere does Mr Goth ask why? Why? Why is it that violence comes so easy to Islam? Why?

Take his statement comparing "the Prophet Mohammed's struggle for freedom of worship, in the early days of his call to Islam, with the West’s torturous and bloody journey to earn the freedom of speech." Is this man real? Does he believe that? What books has he been reading? Does he really think that Jews and Christians like being second class citizens? Did the "non-Peoples of the book" like the option of being killed or converted?

The fact is that old Mohammed was a torturer, murderer, rapist and slaver. Period. Probably every Muslim that posts here regularly has seen the references and quotes for their own writings that I and others have posted. Has it made a difference? Have they stopped to consider the implications of following a man like Mohammad? Have they though about what it means to say that a man who did the things their prophet did is a great moral example?

No. No. No. That is why things are going to get much worse. The simple truth is that Muslims who murder and terrorize are just doing what Mohammed did. You cannot praise the prophet and condemn terror. If you do, you are either deceitful or in denial.

When the cartoon issue is over, it will be something else. One day, some time, some place, in the not too distant future, Muslims will commit some unspeakable atrocity that will wake up the West and even turn the liberal, PC and multiculturalists against them.

Whose fault will it be? I blame the "moderates" like Goth and even the ones that post here, because they refuse to see the obvious, and because they don't ask "why". Why?

John Kactuz

As I said previously - a good article from a clear thinking pagan moslem. Having seen all the "problems" with his islam why doesn't he change religions? Having said that deep down comes the "moslems can lie even are encouraged too lie to unbelievers" mentioned in the terrorist handbook or koran. I think it's called or termed "al-taqiyya" So are these nice, moderate, clear thinking moslems hypocrites and liars? Is their job to smooth and placate us unbelievers. If these moderates were told by their mosque leaders to kill and had the koran passages pointed out to them. As "good?" moslems would they obey their sick leaders, I wonder? This is the stumbling block - can we really trust moslems? numbat