Excellent article.

Finally some sense being spoken.

A better written and much longer expose than Irfan's previous attempt. Same story - different author.

The author starts with the presupposition that islam is a religion of peace and of brain over braun as he puts it.

My question is: How well does he understand his religion? Any 5 year old who can read will tell you how evil islam is.

By far the best article I have read on OLO. Well done. You have shown a true understanding of both Islam and Western culture - a rare thing indeed. Hopefully it will be published far and wide. When the majority of people, especially Muslims, realise that there is a voice of reason then the extremists will have less of an audience.

What a well written summary this is. Well done and thank you.
All that remains now is to try and work out just how the Muslim fraternity is going to organise even part of itself,and work to get its own house in order.I dont see much hope of that happening in the next 100 years.

Excellent article Bashir.
Well said.

Peace

very well written article

Hate is one of the easiest emotion to show, and I think the leader (actual leaders and clurics) of many arab country are the source of this hate - anything to distract their countrymen on why the oil riches does not filter down to the masses

Congratualations, if there are more people like you, there will be more tollerance between the different religions

Looks like this guy has got past the denial and anger phases of dealing with the issue - wish he could get everyone else up to speed.

Great article!

Bashir,
Congratulations and very well thought out.

Coach,
Typically ignorant…

BEEEEEEP...."Muslim 'basher' alert" :)

Ok.. a few points should be made on this mostly good article.

*To Muslims, Islam is the religion of peace and reason. *

agreed. Key words "To Muslims".

Others may disagree.

*Islam dazzled the world with its free and powerful theological and philosophical discourse from the Middle Ages onwards*

On what historical foundation did this 'dazzling' rest ? (history of the expansion of Islam is compulsory reading to 'get' this point.

*it was Prophet Mohammed who fought for freedom of speech *

REALLY ?
He wasn't too thrilled with Kaab bin Ashraf who was the first 'cartoonist' in words (poet) whom he had murdered.
So, my jubilation at his battle for free speech is somewhat muted here. Not to forget also the woman he himself murdered with the sword while she slept with her children. (she was another 'mocker')

All that list of things done by the colonial west, while true, were also done by the invading Muslim armies. To have mentioned this would have given the needed completeness in the article.

No response or critiqe would be 'complete' unless one freely admitted that the "organized Church" (i.e. the beaurocratic, heirachichal one)
has committed horrendous acts of cruelty and barbarity, with the inquisition and on south American Indians and many others.

Fortunately none of that can be linked to Christs life or teaching.

CHRIST RENEWS.

What CAN be related to Him is the impact of those such as Lord Radstock,(an Englishman in the 1800s) who was used of God, to transform many of the Russian nobility into caring, generous, people. Colonel Paschkov, found Christ throught Radstocks evengelism, and reached out to Tolstoy.

Dostoievsky commented about Radstock "I found nothing startling about him, his talks neither clever nor dull, but he performs miracles over human hearts and people are flocking to him, looking for the poor, to bestow benefits on them". Count Brobrinsky (Minister of the Interior) and others opened their palaces for the poor.

You won't hear much about this kind of thing but I assure you, its the REAL 'Church', sssshhhhh..its a secret :)

Yes there are things one could debate but why? One of the better letters from an open minded, clear thinking moslem. Numbat

Thanks Bashir, a truly enlightened missive.

coach, 'Any 5 year old who can read will tell you how evil islam is.'
Especially when they have parents who push this line of bigotry

Bashir has certainly given us all plenty to contemplate. I cannot comment on the historical matters but I found the comments regarding the need for self critisism to be very relevant to today, and our situation here. Hope Muslims,and others, take note.

The Iran/Iraq war, the killing of the Kurds and the present insurgency in Iraq must put an end to any lingering myths about the "brotherhood of Ismam" I wonder if those that destroyed the historical mosque in Iraq think Allah will be pleased. Many deaths occured over a few silly cartoons, how the mind boggles.

"*To Muslims, Islam is the religion of peace and reason. *

agreed. Key words "To Muslims".

Others may disagree."

Good one. That about nails for me. NO means NO. Saying "NO" is a fundimental right of modern civilisation, one we are taught in preschool.

islamists love their religion, i don't.

Bashir, I agree with the other sensible posters on this thread. In my opinion you have written a number of very sensible articles, it's a great pity that monotheistic religions express the opposite of what they preach as a group. I wonder why that is.

As for the metronome mob, coach and BD, you can expect nothing more. Like most religious, it is their fear that drives them, not faith. They can't see past their bigoted narrow fearful perspective, if they could along with the rest of the religious world, they may actually find that the sensible reasoning ones of the world may well admire their beleifs. As does anyone that sees a good positive example of a persons beliefs in action.

I have only 1 muslims friend who refuses to associate with most other muslims, never enters a mosque, believing it to be an unholy place and believes his faith is a very personal and private thing, as does my learned Christan friends.

Sadly Bashir you are in a minority within monotheistic faith as 99% are in denial. Good luck to you and may your faith hold you true to your word.

I can not fault Bashir's post. I think that he is genuine in his desire to find an accomodation between Islam and Western values, which is more than I can say about Irfan. I am convinced that Irfan is just a polished apologist for Islam who somply repeats soothing platitudes that appeal to the SneakyPeter's of this world. He definitely lost his cool in his last article and let his true feelings towards those dreadful eeenfidels show.

Onya Bashir. I hope that your co religionists don't now murder you for having the guts to say what needed to be said. Islam must change to become relevant in the modern world. Unless it can critically examine it's own values in the light of changing times , then it's followers will not only remain (as Pakistani President Mushareff once said), "the poorest, most illiterate and sickest" members of any contemporary civilisation, but they will be the most distrusted and despised.

There is a moderate Muslim MAN, to paraphrase Napoleon in reference to GOETHE. The writer of this piece has his lineage going back to the greatest rational irreligious thinkers of Islam, Avicenna, Averroes, and Omar Khayyam.

One can justly say that he is the embodiment Of Muslim moderation. And his clear contrast, exposes all the double-talkers and pretenders who pose as moderates, such as Irfan and Fellow Human, but who really are fundamentalists, in their thinking, in moderate clothing.

Blog: NEMESIS http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.com

Muslims need to direct their anger at the Muslims responsible for associating violence with their peaceful religion. Is it really a surprise to see such cartoons? You can find them at my web site, at http://www.obber.com, along with a short documentary I put together about it. Things will never get better for Muslims if they do not stand up and fight the real insult, terror.

Excellent article, although I would disagree with your interpretations of history, as I doubt all the places Islam conquered, with subsequent treatment of non-Muslims well, pretty much the same as Muslim nations treat Christians today, being savage.

A good start though, the details can be smoothed over later. You're on the right track, but for every non-Muslim that reads your article, you need to show a thousand Muslims.

After all, it is your own community that need to see what you see, that the west isn't the enemy, it's simply the future.

All in all, good. Sadly, apart from one other Muslim who writes here, the Bangladeshi Doctor who occassionally writes (forget his name) you are the only one on track.

Congratulations.

However, where do you stand on the Sharia? Are you against the barbaric aspects of it relating to the killing of homosexuals, apostates, etc ?

Mr Bashir Goth

Thank you very much for your balanced, open, and honest article with regard to the behaviour of Muslim people, including so-called moderates.

Mr Goth - you are a "gutsy" man. Good on you.

This is the first time that I have ever read an article from an Islam follower who has the guts to question the ever silent and/or "marshmellow" moderates who, in the media (especially TV and radio), sound as if they have been programmed (as in rote learning) to talk over and not listen to the interviewer.

Keysar Trad is a good example. He never answers a closed question, vis a vis: yes or no. He has done the "side shuffle" in every interview that I have ever heard - and I have heard most. He must be an embarrassment to your cause.

I wish you well Mr Goth.

To sajo, Coyote, and redneck: great posts fellas.

Cheers
Kay

PS: coach and BOAZ_David

Why can't you blokes open your minds just a little? Both of you are always calling for a Muslim moderate to speak out against some Islamic practices. Mr Goth has done that. Even so, both of you still had to stick the knife in - just a bit.

Could either of you question Christian fundamentalism with the same openness and honesty as Bashir Goth has done?

The problem for us is that Bashir Goth is in a very small minority.Just listen to the lunatics like Keyser Trad railing against the sensible and logical observations of Peter Costello as being racist and unreasonable.

Well the general Muslim population have demonstrated far more ignorance,hate and racism than even conceived by a few pathetic rebels at Cronulla.I was at Cronulla last weekend and the tension is palpable.Just talk to the locals and listen to the real stories.The media spin,selective reporting and lies did not help racial harmony.

The chickens of weak and ill planned immigration policy have come home to roost,and even many on the left side of politics are running scared.

I've only just got around to reading the article and I was thrilled. The voice of what I hope is the majority of western muslims.

redneck, thank you for your honest response to this.

coach, BD, merideth
you must be gnashing your teeth at this article as it show the face of Islam that you don't want seen. Keep up your attacks on articles like this, your words make your hatred all the more obvious to those who do care about this country.

R0bert

If you want to see sick minds at work, if you think Islam is not aided and abetted by the Psychopathic madness of Lunatic Leftoids and their ridicules twilight zone brains at work. (Spinoza)
Then you will probably not read this link; Or you do understand the sickness.
It is not Isolated to one country.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060223/wl_nm/crime_religion_germany_dc_2

Bashir, that was heart felt and seemingly in some way struggling to be a voice of reason.

Because some of us have no belief in any sort of god I often get a bit curious when I look into or listen to believers from Christianity or Judaism or Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism, etc. So in the name of tolerance just what does an atheist do?

Well from my experience being outside of these religious playpens it all seem just a bit odd to say the least. However to a person who has never left such a playpen the concept of the real world must be terrifying. Take away the religious playpen and what are you left with? A child without a teddy? Is all the fuss down to the fact that religion is fashion that functions like some mind virus? Just seems atheism is forever the same concept.

However back to my curiosity. Bashir, when you say .... "....... have lost their intellectual fortitude.", I am curious. We mostly all understand that Islam's early successes produced great mathematicians, scientists, scholars, physicians and astronomers etc. However, half way on, it is my understanding that new interpreters of Islam appeared and that we see a teaching that the acquisition of knowledge by Muslims meant only the study of Islamic theology where the study of science, medicine etc. was discouraged. Does this suggest some intellectual regression? ..... Does this help to explain how Muslims missed the Industrial Revolution, were seen to be weak people and were carved up by England and France?

Bashir you make sense with private ideas such as .... "....... it is our house that we have to put in order." This also applies to Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, etc. If people wish to believe in magic, miracles and fairytales then keep it private, voluntary, out of school education, out of government. It is a belief system not a control system.

Of course we can ask many questions but in the process only humanity can win the day.

Mate

When are you migrating to Australia? You'd add to the place, just as many other migrants have over the last 50 years.

Admire your clear thinking and your guts.

In his last article, Bashir Goth savaged the colonialism of the past. In this one he lists the good things that came from colonialism. I suppose that’s progress. He is being honest in his criticism of his religion, but isn’t he just saying what non-Muslims have always said?

He receives plaudits from Fellow Human, yet Fellow Human objects to the same criticism from non-Muslims.

Bashir Goth has been so honest that it will be interesting to see how many pills Irfan prescribes for him.

It’s good for we non-Muslims to hear this stuff from a Muslim. But let’s not get too excited about it. The only thing we can say for sure is that there is probably some hope for Bashir Goth and his family.

Meanwhile, the usual squealing Islamic big mouths are jumping up and down, enjoying the notoriety and ‘victim hood’ they so crave, because of reasoned, perfectly inoffensive remarks made today by Peter Costello about ‘mushy’ multiculturalism and the unwillingness of some immigrants to adopt Australian values and fulfil their part of the bargain. “Why are Australian values better than any other country’s?” asked one Western-attired young woman connected with a youth group, with an Australian accent. “What if we don’t like YOUR values”? asked another. “They should respect us”, from another young Muslim lad. I may have missed it, but I don’t recall Costello using the word “Muslim” once. Admittedly though, we all knew who he was talking about.

It’s going to take a lot more than the honesty of one or two Muslims to give Islam any credence.

Leigh, speaking of which, it only seem the other day that some of Peter Costello's political mates were pushing their own ‘mushy’ religious ideas about an abortion pill. Remember that? Regardless of some immigrants it also seems that there is an unwillingness from some of our politicians to fulfil their part of the bargain and keep religion private and separate from government.

Is this some failing or a form of amnesia?

AUSTRALIAN VALUES...CULTURE (for Ifran)

Slim Dusty..

"Pub with no beer" and
"On the road to Gundagai"
"The Currawongs are calling"

Banjo Patterson

"The man from Ironbark"
"The man from Snowy River"
"Clancy of the overflow"

Henry Lawson's prose.

Chips Rafferty.. actor

Slouch Hats

Ned Kelly, bushranger and Sydney Nolans paintings of him.

Waltzing Matilda

Tom Roberts "Shearing of the rams" painting.

Dad n Dave Radio Serial.
Blue Hills, ditto.

Smokey Dawson and his horse Flash,
Tex Morton, the yodeling boundary rider.

It is Albert Namatjira and his surpassing landscapes of central Australia.

It is the tombstones and memorials of the explorers which are often found on the side of the road...

Its meeting your friend and his wife (like I did 2night) and giving him a vigorous handshake, his wife an affectionate hug and kiss on her cheek. (and He mine)

It is the community in the 'bush' gathering to help out a victim of fire, and rebuild a dwelling.

It is the Australian Light horse, straight from the pages of 'Clancy of the overflow' bearing down on the Turk machine guns and artillery in Palestine overunning them in wild bush gallantry.

It is the rats of Tobruk, pounded to the point most men cannot stand, only to stand up again and again to hold the Germans back.

It is the Anzacs of Gallipoli, charging with futility into Turkish machine guns, being cut to shreds.

It is the despair of the farmer who had just one too many droughts.

It is Adelaide, the City of Churches.

WA with mountains of iron, Broken Hill, and Coober Peedy with its opals.

The Gold coast, Sydney Harbour, The Bridge.

Violence is committed by many people in this country, so why are we blaming it all on Muslims? We say that they:

1. Believe in their system of beliefs as superior to that of other people
2. Seek world domination
3. Treat women like sh_t

For each of those statements is a certain degree of truth but in our affirmation of such statements, we become hypocrites.

As white Australians we:

1. Sit in church practicing Christianity on Sunday, then throughout the week flaunt our self-righteousness and moral superiority
2. As a nation, support domination of other countries through our allegiance with the USA
3. Also treat our women like sh_t – have a look at the ABS statistics on domestic violence and you'll be shocked

As regards to the third item, I have a friend in the police force who gets calls about domestic violence nearly every day. He has to go and peel some deranged maniac off his wife, who will no doubt never press charges. Talk about the oppression of women.

Of course, we'll see them both in church that weekend.

Bashir/Irfan,
As an observer I have read with interest most posts on the Islam subject, both here and in other places. What this arlice seems to me to be is the old good cop/bad cop situation, my apologies if this is not the case.

I have read posts from David Boaz, and others challenging any muslim to denounce sharia law, world domination, etc. I have also noticed that I have not seen a muslim dispute these two accusations, although there has been ample opportunity.

These feelgood articles only serve to deepen my suspicion of the "real" situation, which no muslim has yet disputed, let alone done so in a convincing manner

Response to Shonga:

Although Islam is the official religion of the United Arab Emirates, its government took several steps that demonstrated respect for religious freedom. The Crown Prince of Dubai donated a plot of land to build St. Mary's church for the Greek Orthodox community in Dubai. The Ministry of Justice hosted an international conference on religion and terrorism that was designed to encourage moderation in preaching and condemn extremism and terrorism. In June 2005, The President issued a law establishing the Zayed Center for Islamic Culture to foster interreligious tolerance and co-existence and to promote a better understanding of Islam in the West.

Abu Dhabi Crown Prince received the Patriarch of the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch and All the East, stating that such visits foster friendship, tolerance, and religious dialogue. Ministry of Justice representives participated in the Christmas celebrations of the Arab Evangelical Church in Abu Dhabi and called for religious tolerance. The Minister received Elder Zwick of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to discuss means of enhancing relationships between people of different religions and to confirm the tolerance of Islam. The Government's Religious Adviser unveiled the foundation stone of the Egyptian Coptic Church of the Reverent Antonios, accompanied by the Archbishop of the Orthodox Coptic Church in Jerusalem, the Gulf, and the Middle East.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51386.htm (Part II)

If you have any problem with the accuracy of this information, please contact Dr. Condoleezza Rice, who may be unaware of the "real situation."

Brought up a christian ,went to school at a christian college went to church as a christian,was instructed as a young boy,and when I became a man,as to what it means to be a christian,that the human race is one,that there is no heathen,there is no infidel,there is neither jew or gentile,there is no white,there is no black,we are all children of one GOD,WHO CREATED ALL IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS let that be your passport I was told for the journey through life,do not hate your brother or sister,because we are all children of GOD,this is my principles wereby I live my life.

Bashir,
This is one of the best articles I have read by a Muslim to appease Western minds. It presents clear arguments that every Muslim ought to understand.

However ideas are only acceptable if given reality. It would appear you are "a voice crying in the wilderness", and the person identified by this alluding [John the Baptiser 33AD] was beheaded by religious legal extremists for identifyng the sins and failures of the law enforcers.

However the Muslim mind must have a spiritual awakening and learn to reject some aspects of the Kor'an as spurious or irrelavent for today and give the life of Mohamet deeper scritiny as not having all authority to represent God by his words and exampled behaviour.

The Koran has as much authority when it comes to history and revelation as the book of Mormon; both claim to be handed down directly from God by the angel Gabriel. Both opening with the ideas to demonise any who would challenge or doubt its words, which is a literary give away of its genuineness and sincerity.

As stated ideas mean nothing unless lived in reality. A religion of peace and tolerance does not mean a thing unless it is demonstrated. However in the minds of many Muslims peace means the absence of opposition, and discenting voices. That is why they cannot accept democracy is the principle designed by Allah. In their mind it is evil and must be eradicated. Relationship to God is not theology, it is the attitudes demonstrated by the life. Joseph learned to live in an Egyptian culture, Daniel in a Babylonian and Jesus in a Greco-Roman and none tried to overthrow the system only the religious deception and enslavement.

The current agenda by moderate Muslims is to make their religion plauable to Western minds. The ultimate agenda will be set by the fundamentalists enforcing all to submit to the laws of Allah [shari'ah].

just because there are some people out there who like to get the point across, the only way they can do it by force make all us muslims bad to you. You don't see us judging other religions by just a few people. You all say that you believe in GOD then why don't you prove it, instead of worrying what us muslims are doing to ourselves why not worry about how you all betray yourself. You say that we are violent and killers but again you are doing worse by the actions you are doing.
Yes muslims are starting to become more angry and more up tight but what do think we should, just sit back and take all your racism. You as a person can take so much. In any religion it states, that you should defend, your religion and we are doing just that. But to you all we are just terrorist, we don't believe in our religion and we don't believe in GOD (swt).
WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE US, THE JUDGEMENT YOU GIVE US TODAY, WILL BE WHAT YOU WILL GET, ON JUDGEMENT DAY BUT WORSE. So if you wish to judge is then do it because been judged by you now is better then been judged by ALLAH. Let us see who will save US when we are all been questioned in the grave, about our lives. Because every minute of the day should be thanking ALLAH, and worshiping him. As it says in our book, onto your religion on to us our religion. This here is nothing to what a muslim faces every day of our lives, it takes a strong person in heart to be a Muslim not just anyone can do it. There are people who say they a muslim just by name but not by action, there is a difference. Have a nice day.

R0bert,

You wrote: "coach... you must be gnashing your teeth at this article as it show the face of Islam that you don't want seen...."

Don't be silly !!

1. That article is NOT "the face of Islam". Only fools like you believe that.

2. It is a wonderful work of a single moderate. Seemingly a true moderate. Probably an isolated one.

3. It's DEEDS that count, not WORDS. If beautiful argument like those do not sink in the mind of Muslims, then sorry, all it'd do is fooling naive people like you.

4. There may be a death threat against Bashir Goth some time. He may not even be regarded as a Muslim by some.

The population of Muslims is so huge, a mere handful of reformists is already a gross indictment of the religion. One very rare dissenting voice and your pathetic analytic mind takes you over the moon.

I don't attack that article at all. I welcome it. But please get Bashir Goth to take his teachings to a mosque, ANY MOSQUE, and see how far he'd go... before you gratuitously criticise those who have seem the TRUE face of Islam, for a much longer time than you have even heard about Islam.

Experience no longer count these days, does it? It's all about naive youthful exuberance.

GZ Tan - "Experience no longer count these days, does it? It's all about naive youthful exuberance"

It is the naive youthful experience that is needed in order for change to happen. And change is what is really needed. Experience only counts if it is used as a basis for learning.

My experience of Australian Muslims is very different from yours. My Muslim friends and colleagues are genuinely kind and caring individuals with values, views and lifestyles very similar to my own - so does my experience count?

sajo,

You wrote: "It is the NAIVE youthful EXPERIENCE..."
My goodness!! How do you reconcile being NAIVE and being EXPERIENCED

You then wrote: "Experience only counts if it is used as a basis for learning".
In other words you mean- Experience does NOT count if it is NOT used as a basis for learning.

I don't think you even know what you're talking about.

You wrote: "And change is what is really needed. "
So put together a bunch of naive people like yourself (and R0bert), the Islamic world will change for the better... you think? Ooop... or perhaps it is our world that needs changing and improving to accomodate the intolerance and violence coming from Muslims? Or change both at the same time??

You have some experience with Muslims. So based on your local experience, can you figure out why Australian Muslims may be 'different' from Muslims in another Islamic states?

If your experience is to be your shining light of guidance, then you'd better be able to tell.

Whether change or not, WISDOM is needed. Not being NAIVE. And wisdom partly comes from experience.

st_alk,
Do you agree with Bashir and accept his criticisms as fair and just and warranted? Are you prepared to submit firstly to all Australian laws? Or do you determine your life by the Kor'anic law?

Can you accomodate a democratic society with its diversity of opinion?

Or do you merely react? Quote, "Yes muslims are starting to become more angry and more up tight but what do think we should, just sit back and take all your racism. You as a person can take so much. In any religion it states, that you should defend, your religion and we are doing just that."

How do you personally defend your religion by life, attitudes, and apologetics? Or do you use a knife and a gun when confronted with abuse or argument you cannot answer? The latter is the position of extremists following the literal interpretation of the Kor'an.

Please read a dictionary on the meaning of "racism" and "religion" both are not synomyn of each other. Religion does not represent one's race and drawing the racist card, as you have done, does not mean a critic of your religion has violated race vilification laws.

I have arrived late to this thread.

I can only endorse what has been said before and that we are fortunate to read another reasoned, sincere and rational article from Bashir.

The religious bigots such as Coach et al have finally had their come uppance and are looking like the fools they truly are.

I will pass this article onto my muslim friends. Actually I will pass it onto some friends who aren't Muslim - nothing like a little edification.

To those who would control the beliefs and thoughts and choices of others I reiterate Bashir's words:

"To sum up, I would say that living in a global village where millions of unfortunate human beings survive under the scourge of poverty, diseases and natural disasters; where millions of mothers watch their children become skeletons due to famine before they gasp their last breath, it is an insult to humanity and almost a blasphemous act by the erstwhile defenders of both camps to waste their energy and resources on such imbecilic endeavors."

I would also add that Christianity is insulted everyday by Christians themselves - just follow the posts at OLO.

Peace

David Latimer,
Thank you for the information, you have an informed comment on most topics and your post was appreciated, food for thought. I would not ask Connie Rice for the time of day, as she would probably charge to give it you, however I found your post enlightening, which is the reason I am here,
Regards, Shaun

GZ Tan – “You wrote: "It is the NAIVE youthful EXPERIENCE..."
My goodness!! How do you reconcile being NAIVE and being EXPERIENCED” – sorry this was a typo – meant to repeat your quote with ‘exuberence’.

You obviously hate all Muslims, perhaps based on your own experiences or more likely from lack of experience ie. ignorance. Others, like me, have ‘experience’ that does not support your view. Just because you don't agree does not make it invalid. I do not believe that Bashir Goth’s views are that of a minority – quite the opposite based on my own experience. I have not met anyone who comes even close to the descriptions of “all Muslims’ that some posters to OLO would have us believe. If I lived somewhere else my opinions would likely be very different which basically shows that experience is relative.

Those who spout hatred seem to have the loudest voices – it does not mean they are right. The Bashir Goth’s of this world are trying hard to provide a voice for the majority of people who just want to get on with their lives.

My experience also shows me that children do not have the prejudices of ‘experienced’ adults. Naivety may not be as bad as you think

David Latimer

The reference you provide and selectively quoted from, also has a major segment dealing with,"State Hostility toward Minority Non Approved Religions".

It covers many countries and has many examples of Muslims and their governments, being anti other religons. Just read the segment on Malaysia, for one example.

Hoisted on your petard.

st_alk,

I admire your convictions and your sincere desire to follow your religious tenets.
It is wrong to judge anyone – only God is the judge of all and one day He is going to judge the whole world through His Son Jesus.

As a follower of Jesus The Christ, I will not be judged on my good and bad deeds and actions, because the God I worship has done away with “religion” once and for all.

He send His Son to Die for us all (including muslims) to wash away ALL our sins.

It is done! No need for religiosity, new prophets, and rituals after Jesus.

That is no excuse to behave badly – BUT this is where as humans we get it so wrong. We judge and prejudge people by their looks and behaviour.

There is a perception that Christians must behave in a certain “pious” manner. If people judge Christianity by looking at me and other Christians, they will never discover God.

The same applies to Islam.

The point I’m making is that TRUTH is based on facts and not the perception.

So what you believe (sincerely and honestly) is NOT the truth. No one is going to whisper in you ear when you are dead. It’s a lie and ploy from Satan. to keep you away from the true God.

The only way God will treat you at the “gate of heaven.” is How you respond to Jesus (not a religion) on earth – when you are still alive.

You can be SURE of your salvation – the only “pass” you need is Jesus.

You have a choice: continue to believe Satan, man made rules, worshipping a fictitious god, a criminal prophet, or believe in the One True God of Love.

Mohammad cannot save you because SADLY he never recognised God Jesus.

Truth hurts. Change is difficult and mostly impossible. I am not suggesting that you will see the light straight away – but what is impossible with man is possible to God.

David

'Henry Lawson's prose'

Mate in my good natured way I have to say that is the greatest underestimation and understatement concerning Australia's greatest poet.

His prose was good but his poetry was better. It rang with emotion and truth.

His 'Black Bonnets' a tribute to his mother... well what could be more Australian.

Some of his messages are still apt today.

Rain in the Mountains

The valley's full of misty cloud,
It's tinted beauty drowning,
The Eucalypts roar aloud,
The mountain fronts are frowning.

The mist is hanging like a pall
From many granite ledges,
And many a little waterfall
Starts o'er the valley's edges.

The sky is of a leaden grey,
Save where the north is surly,
The driven daylight speeds away
As night comes o'er us early.

But, love, the rain will pass full soon
Far sooner than my sorrow,
And in a golden afternoon
The sun may set to-morrow.

-philo-

I am australian, born, family has been here since the 1700's. I am the only person in my family that is muslim, rest are catholics, christians and jewish.
I live here in australia and i follow the rules, but that does not mean i agree with it. it is said that you may not like what is written, or you may not like the laws by man but you go along with it if there is not choice, but in your heart you don't agree.
fear comes from satan (bismillah), because if you trust GOD, you will never be scared, except from him. (meaning what you do now will count on judgement day).

coach
I have a qeustion for you, You say the Jesus is GODs (swt) son. Why does GOD need a son and he doesn't need a wife?

You said Jesus died for our sins, Then do you think that it would be fair for some one that works hard for what they believe in, work hard in been good and doing good, all there life. Then having some one that killed, raped, and just had fun all there life and get enter paradise? I don't think this is fair at all.
Jesus (peace be upon him) did not die, he is in heaven now, alive he is going to come back, he will break the cross and kill all the pigs and and non believers.

Do you honestly think that all the laws that were given to us mean nothing? the holy book is to guide us through our lives, because this life is short and it is a test of faith. But the here after is forever. Muslim believe that everything that happens to us is from ALLAH (swt), so everything bad or good that happens we say thanks GOD. I respect what you are saying in fact what anyone says, but in my heart i do not agree.

st_alk,

1. Why does GOD need a son and he doesn't need a wife?

The answer to that is in the Qur’an (Mariam) – Jesus was miraculously born by the virgin Mary.

2. God is a Just Judge and Ruler of all. He makes the rules and judges us according to His rules. Jesus is The Fulfilment of The Law of Moses (the Tawrat, The Prophets, and The Zabur). The Injil is the NEW Testament – God’s New Rule: The Word is Jesus.

You say the Qur’an confirms the Bible. DOES IT?

If it really did - then why don’t you read the bible for yourself instead of relying on the Qur’an's interpretation of the Injil? Compare the two and then tell me what you think.

3. What proof do you have that Allah gave your prophet Mohammad any revelation?

You have the word of one man with very questionable curriculum vitae and you base your entire life and eternal life on him? That is insane.

4. God created man free to believe, to sin, and to do good. But you say that “everything that happens to us is from Allah…” he causes you to sin? – How could a pure god come near sin?

When Jesus died on the cross He said:” Father, why have you abandoned me?” That is proof that God cannot exist where there is sin. (Jesus carried all mankind’s sin upon himself – so god had to turn his face.

So one of our Beliefs is wrong. You say that you don’t agree with the Christian Bible yet Allah your god in your Qur’an tells you to respect the scriptures that where revealed to the Jews and the Christians before Mohammad’s.

So which is it? What YOU agree to believe or what your god ALLAH tells you to believe and respect?

It doesn’t appear to me that you respect the bible much if you deny what it reveals.

ST ALK

help us to understand where you are coming from please.

You speak with great faith in Islam and in Mohammed, could you describe how you became a Muslim ? We usually call that our 'testimony'.

What information did you examine, and were you 'guided' by some Imam or did you look for yourself ?

Did you ask yourself this question "Would a man claiming to be the final prophet of God be lesser or greater than Christ"?

You are ok with him leaping on a sleeping woman and stabbing her to death ? Did you know this before you make your committment, or after, was it too late by then ? Do you even know this now ?

Did you not feel just a little 'uncomfortable' at the idea of him taking a 9 yr old girl to bed ? have you seen just how small a 9 yr old is ?

Or..did you get carried away with the "In the name of Allah the benificent" etc etc.. which might be described as 'verbal gilt edging'
which could of course be invented by any 'spiritual' person, such as Joseph Smith the founder of the Mormons

A couple of points on your view about 'The Laws' which you seem to think we regard as unimportant. The problem is this.

-God, is perfect,in all holiness.
-God and sin, cannot dwell together.
-We are sinful, even if we 'miss' by a mm or a mile, just 'once'.
-If you sin 'once' do you remain Holy ?

Once you have driven off a cliff...there is absolutely no turning back, its a one way trip to oblivion. You can plead, be sorry, negotiate, beg, stamp your feet , scream, abuse... etc etc..but 'nothing' will drive that car ur in back to the top. Down...down...downnnn u go... unless:

What we need is a force greater than gravity, who cares enough about us, to provide a 'way' to safety.

Not a very good illustration, Jesus told so many better ones...
So, the Law simply demonstrates our sin, it does not save us from it.

Bashir, one person of interest in Islamic philosophy is held to be Imam al-Ghazali born in 1058. He argued that reason could not transcend the finite and was limited to the observation of the relative. Whilst several Muslim philosophers had the opinion that the universe was finite in space but infinite in time he argued that infinite time was related to infinite space. I've always found this belief quite remarkable because it assumes an infinite universe rather than one created or one originating from some big bang fireworks. If the universe is infinite and has always existed then what role is there for a god if by chance there could be one of these entities?

When people discuss any issue they are likely to do so through different ..... even mutually exclusive ..... a priori sets of assumptions or beliefs about the nature of reality and the human place in it. For all perceptual, emotional, and behavioral purposes, people in fact can live in quite different realities. With such species dissociation, it is not unusual for different groups to be psychologically unable to draw compatible conclusions from the same fact. How do people then cope with this situation? Democratically perhaps?

So whilst one can always be curious as to why we don't agree on certain issues with others there is always for myself a serious problem when it comes to anyone infected with a teddy (god) mind virus. I just know that with these people the mechanisms essential to human functioning have been poisoned and are of no use through such obvious insecurity.

Of course we can ask many questions but in the process only a democratic humanity can win the day. However it is a burdensome fact that none of these teddies (i.e. invented gods) are about democracy. "Gods" don't do democracy.

An excellent and courageous article, in contrast with the mix of numb silence, insincere tut-tutting and ranting lunacy that we hear from the leaders of the Muslim nations. The resounding absence of an intelligent and humane response makes even George Bush look good.

PS I get the impression from certain professed Christians on this forum that they are just as much theocratic fundamentalists as the Islamists they criticise.

One of the most noticeable trends in the Western world since Osama took over the mantle of Marx as Mr Evil, is the surge in activity of fundamentalist christianity. As a secularist/pluralist/democrat, I feel increasingly like a raison* in an overcooking fruitcake.

*[linguistic pun alert: raison = Fr. "reason"]

Best article I've read on muslims and their plight in the modern world. I hope Bashir gets offers to go on lecture tours around the globe. We need more enlightened intelligent souls such as him bridging the gaps between muslims and the rest of the world.

As far as St_Alk is concerned, this poster sounds brainwashed and incomprehensible to a mainstream person. This is an example of why Bashir Goth has his work cut out for him.

Peter Costello also has his work cut out for him. For all his rhetoric, it seems to me that for him talk is louder than action, and talk is all you you need to buy votes. If he was serious about protecting Australian values he'd have Sheikh Kahlid Yasin who is preaching to anti-social behaviour (ie. you can’t have non muslim friends) to Australian muslims, banned from ever entering Australia again. I don’t know why the Australian muslim community even put up with him. He is a threat to harmonious integration of muslims in Australia and simply promotes their reputatation as a bunch of mad terrorists. Allowing Sheikh Khalid Yasin to preach here must surely have people like Bashir Both wanting to bang their heads against the wall at the futility of bringing Islam into the 21st century.

Under the present tough talking government, immigration has increased so dramatically, in numbers and in eccentricity, that there are more racial/religious tensions in this country than ever before.

Skeptor

Good post mate - the first one. See my previous post.

I call moderate Muslims - "mushy", as in soft and pink marshmellows.

Keysar Trad is so mushy. He speaks more bulldust than any politician I have ever heard. Even Bob Browm sounds better - and that's a first for me.

Cheers
Kay

Yesterday, I provided some information about the United Arab Emirates on its religious tolerance. The UAE is regarded as having "generally free practice of religion" by the US State Dept in its 2005 International Religious Freedom Report.

Bigmal wrote an interesting follow up post. He said that in choosing the UAE, I was being selective. Other countries, including muslim countries did have religious restrictions. He said that I was "hoisted on your petard"; like an "own goal". Well, not really.

He is only correct in that I was selective. I chose the UAE because it’s a multi-ethnic muslim country under sharia law, which according to the US State Dept, generally has freedom of religion. It was specifically mentioned in the Executive Summary of the Report.

Previously bigmal had said: "All that remains now is to try and work out just how the Muslim fraternity is going to organise even PART OF ITSELF, and work to get its own house in order. I dont see much hope of that happening in the next 100 years." (24feb06 11:24am, my caps) I suggest to bigmal that the UAE is "PART" of the Muslim fraternity. If we are going to make such a time estimate we need to look at the leading edge, not the trailing edge.

BTW, I am not in any way supporting Sharia law or suggesting that the UAE has the same level of religious tolerance as Australia. Worldwide, we are on the leading edge and we’ll be staying there, using the laws of the parliament under our constitution and Australian values of fair-go.

Overall I am more glad that bigmal appreciated and reacted positively to this article as I did.

I am not worried about point scoring. We should inform ourselves as to the level of religious tolerance in the countries of the world using reliable material. The International Religious Freedom Report 2005 shows the good and the bad, (except it does not examine the US itself, but I don’t think there’d be much dispute in saying the US has freedom of religion.)

That web address again: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/

Finally the voice I been waiting to hear. It has been a mystery to me, where have these men Of Islam been with this voice of reason and knowledge? There have been rumors that this voice was there. This is however the first evidence I've seen of it. Now if he can only inspire others to take up the banner, Not just Muslim, but Christian as well. This is a voice that deserves respect. Something I haven't been able to say about to many people of religion.

Once again, thank you for the Forum.

DAvid Latimer
understanding the term "Religious Freedom" under Islam, is a lot like understanding their 'code' words "Innocent People".

You will often here the condemnation of killing "innocent people", but this does not neccesarily mean they regard those killed in bombings etc as 'innocent' specially if they are Jews -all the term does is give some sanitizing 'spin' to the Muslim position.

Just so with religious 'freedom'. You may be free to 'practice' in the sense of goto Church, Believe, worship etc, but you are NOT free to SHARE your faith, build new Churches (in some places) etc etc.. That my friend is 'bullock' freedom.. (a bull with no balls) You are especially not free to share your faith with or evangelize Muslims.

MALAYSIA WOMENS MOVEMENT
This morning a fascinating doco was on Fox. The presenter was a muslim.
They covered "Islam in Malaysia" and contrasted it with Indonesia.

A womens movement has arisen which is in response to women complaining when:

-their husbands take a 2nd wife.
-When they are 'beaten' by their husbands
-When they are divorced at whim by their husbands
-When they are treated unfairly (in their minds) by the Sharia courts(run by men)

Their complaints ALSO include "But when we complain they just tell us it is all authorized under Islam and the Quran"

Which of course is quite accurate. One of the 'Sisters in Islam' wants to be the first female Sharia judge ! Which is impossible under Quranic Islam

My observation is that what they REALLY long for is the freedom of a Christian society :) (as in truly Christian) Many of the values of Malaysian life reflect Christian values more than Islamic and their is a conflict.

The current Prime Minister Badawi is an absolute gem of a man. His outlook seems more Christian than Muslim :)

F.H. I've been reading your posts. Cheers.

Blessings all.

I think the debate has finally advanced.

If firphan has any dignity he won't post his 'muslim haters' or 'armchair nazi' material anymore. He'll join Bashir and work things out.

History is presenting our Aussie Muslims with these leadership opportunities. They should take advantage.

No more silly anti-western were as good as you guys stop persecuting us crap!

Wouldn't agree with everything Bashir said but crikey what a relief a Muslim is actually not afraid to call a spade a spade.

The problem has been named. Now what to do. Important steps include

Muslims getting rid of seditious publications calling on the overthrow of the 'Satanic usurping' of dar-al islam (our parliamentary system) and of sharia.

Muslims protesting against Imams and clerics that want the return of the Caliphate and hate Australian Christian secular values.

Theologians doing critical scholarship on Islamic holy books. Which will hurt but best the pain be felt now rather than let the disease do its worst.

P.s.

Where are our Australian theologians by the way! We really need them now - how many of any note have we produced?

sajo,

I do not hate Muslims per se. Just like you I have met nice Muslims. But I'm certainly anti-Islam.
As for experience and ignorance... I grew up where saying a wrong thing about Mohammed could get me killed.... there was no Muslim tolerance.

Time and again someone meets nice Muslims, reads articles from moderates, then leap to a conclusion that Islam must be good.

Worst, they then cling onto that view, thinking they have substantial experience and knowledge about Islam.

Islam is like a very large zigsaw puzzle, each tiny piece represents a view in Islam (eg. Muslims you've met, articles you've read) and each piece tells a fairly decent story on its own.

But in whole, when the zigsaw puzzle is completed, what you get is a large ugly picture of a demonic beast that devours freedom and democracy, a beast that perpetuates intolerance and narrow-mindedness.

Sure, at an individual person level, Muslims seem like everybody else, they work, tell a joke or two, even drink and womanise. But it is the big picture that tells the truth.

Sure, your opinions may vary, experience may be relative. But truth will be truth no matter where you are:
1. Islam is a ONE-WAY STREET. Once a country turns Islamic, there is no way to turn back.
2. Notwithstanding encouraging articles from Bashir Goth, Islam can never and WILL NEVER be moderated.

Trust me on this.

Lastly, lack of prejudices in no way imples naivety may be a good thing.

There is only one way you can truly defend your religion, or other beleifs. Thats by the example of expression you provide those around you and the world in general. Any other approach is an aggression upon those that don't accept or disagree.

Thats why all monotheistic religions can't defend themselves, resorting to threats of damnation and violence. They can't provide an acceptable example nor expression, because you can't defend the indefensible.

Its worthy to note, with exceptions that from all religious sides, we are getting Bashir bashing. Most non believers have expressed their appreciation of what he is saying and shows how open, accepting and understanding they are of those willing to confront their religious gremlins and face up to the reality of monotheistic expression.

That doesn't mean that they have abandoned their beleifs, but have lost the infantile stance of I'm right and buggar you, my truth is all that counts. Sadly we see how much religious truth counts in its worldly expression, from all sides. You can't take religion in isolation as its all encompassing in its zeal to convert. But you can take a singular decent religious expression and accept it as genuine.

Until someone else can point out any hypocrisy within Bashir, relating to his statements. Then I and believe most other non believers accept him for what he states he is and welcome him into the real world. I expect that I would enjoy discussing many subjects with this man, unlike others that profess to having religious knowledge.

As always the religious blind will find anything to attack with, even if it doesn't exist other than within their mind.

Martin Ibn Warriq, there are many excellent theologians in Australia, but you and others of your ilk, wouldn't recognise nor accept what they say, as your fantasies are beyond redemption. You live in a a religious illusion, created by your failure to see beyond your fears of what you may find if you actually made a truly unbiased study of theology and its history.

st_alk,

Does God need a son but not a wife? Perhaps not. May be God does have a wife but not telling us. So, if you can't understand why God does not need a wife, then you cannot possibly believe in the God.

Is it fair for someone who killed, raped and then enter paradise? A lot of Muslims certainly think so. No matter what evil a Muslim had done, finally dying for Islam (eg. suicide bombing) seems to be a quick albeit a dirty way to paradise.

If you think this is not fair at all. Then perhaps everyone in paradise should be given a number indicating how they got there, amount of good/bad work he had done on earth. This number will be entitlement to priviledges and number of virgins he gets. Those with high privileges will forever humiliate those below them. Those dissatisfy with their number will constantly hassle Allah for an upgrade. There may be forming of groups of 'holiness' re the ugly, good, better and best.

One day Allah's gonna go mad and tell his wife that he's had enough, then GODDESS shall take on responsibility and create Earth_2, makes everyone returns to Earth_2, repeat the cycle to test their faith.

That'd be fun....

I understand in Christianity one does not boast of good deeds. Salvation is God's grace and good deeds are like rags by God's standard... that no one shall boast.

Do you really believe "... this life... is a test of faith..." ??
Does this not completely contradict your notion of fairness? Some people are certainly tested more than others.

U said: "everything bad or good that happens we say thanks GOD"... So thanks be to Allah yet another suicide bomber achieved his mission. His mother and the entire village are rejoicing.

Good article, but not good enough. In fact, it shows the essence of the problem. Nowhere does Mr Goth ask why? Why? Why is it that violence comes so easy to Islam? Why?

Take his statement comparing "the Prophet Mohammed's struggle for freedom of worship, in the early days of his call to Islam, with the West’s torturous and bloody journey to earn the freedom of speech." Is this man real? Does he believe that? What books has he been reading? Does he really think that Jews and Christians like being second class citizens? Did the "non-Peoples of the book" like the option of being killed or converted?

The fact is that old Mohammed was a torturer, murderer, rapist and slaver. Period. Probably every Muslim that posts here regularly has seen the references and quotes for their own writings that I and others have posted. Has it made a difference? Have they stopped to consider the implications of following a man like Mohammad? Have they though about what it means to say that a man who did the things their prophet did is a great moral example?

No. No. No. That is why things are going to get much worse. The simple truth is that Muslims who murder and terrorize are just doing what Mohammed did. You cannot praise the prophet and condemn terror. If you do, you are either deceitful or in denial.

When the cartoon issue is over, it will be something else. One day, some time, some place, in the not too distant future, Muslims will commit some unspeakable atrocity that will wake up the West and even turn the liberal, PC and multiculturalists against them.

Whose fault will it be? I blame the "moderates" like Goth and even the ones that post here, because they refuse to see the obvious, and because they don't ask "why". Why?

John Kactuz

As I said previously - a good article from a clear thinking pagan moslem. Having seen all the "problems" with his islam why doesn't he change religions? Having said that deep down comes the "moslems can lie even are encouraged too lie to unbelievers" mentioned in the terrorist handbook or koran. I think it's called or termed "al-taqiyya" So are these nice, moderate, clear thinking moslems hypocrites and liars? Is their job to smooth and placate us unbelievers. If these moderates were told by their mosque leaders to kill and had the koran passages pointed out to them. As "good?" moslems would they obey their sick leaders, I wonder? This is the stumbling block - can we really trust moslems? numbat

I think Mr Bashir needs to watch his back. His article would surely anger the radicals.
Perhaps if Muslims want to live in western countries, it would probably be wise to do as other migrants do--keep your head down, complain less,do your best to merge in with the mores of Australian life instead of standing out always as a different tribe determined to force your unwelcome beliefs and culture on us.
If any radicals refuse to do this, moderate Muslims would be in the best situation to persuade these people to return to Muslim states where they can live life under Muslim rules instead of always being at odds with Australian laws.
A square peg will never fit in a round hole and if our way of life doesn't agree with you, go.

I agree Numbat.

Part One

To Bashir,

As a retiree who since acquiring a degree in history and politics at Curtin University, majoring in International Relations with Honours, followed by 13 years backed by Murdoch School of Humanities taking groups in the Philosophy of Western History at Mandurah Uni’ of the 3rd Age, it is both surprising and annoying that regarding the horrific problems today between mostly Middle East Muslims and Anglicised Westerners, not a jot has been mentioned how St Thomas Aquinas in the Late Middle Ages, virtually lifted Christianity out of the Dark Ages, through taking note of the teachings of the rebellious French monk Peter Abelard, whose watchword had become “The Search for Enquiry”, based on Aristotlean philososophy passed on by Muslim scholars. Put simply, in order to put Christianity on an earthly plane, Revelation had to be mixed with Reason, or as most modern scientists declare, Reason and Faith must go together.

Indeed, many historians swear by the logic that without the infusion of Greek scientific reasoning Western society might still be barbarian.

Now, rather sadly, through the dicardance of Greek philosophy, Islam itself is in a Dark Ages. Not that such proud people need to convert to the somewhat cheap Western cowboy styles of the American Way.

Part Two

In short, there has been a suggestion, not among our so-called teaching fraternity, of course, that if the above was taught in Primary schools, especially with young Muslim migrants and our Australian kids together, as well as the full logic of Aquinas Reasoning over our church pulpits, we might gradually attain far better friendliness between Westerners and Islamics.

Some call it learning from each other and sharing the blame. Maybe someone can think of a better term.

George C, WA - Bushbred

This is an excellent article which shows how Muslims themselves make Islam look bad. Just as Peter Costello's ignorance on sharia makes the Liberal Party looks stupid.

I notice coach saying that "Any 5 year old who can read will tell you how evil islam is." Thanks for telling us your age, coach.

Irfan

This is the only article I have seen on OLO that presents Islam in anything other than a favourable light. For you to agree it presents a view of one Muslim's unfavourable assessment is not an admission on your part that his views are at all accurate or representative of most Muslim's views.

I know I won't get an answer but I have to ask...What is your opinion of Bashir's view? Do you agree with all of it, part of it or none of it?
Would you mind explaining to me exactly how Peter Costello's views on sharia are ignorant?
You might also explain how his view represents the Liberal Party's policy. You won't be able to do this. Comments such as yours reveals a lack of understanding of the precepts of our political system. Such is a prime example of the things I was refering to in the forum discussing your article. Such inaccuracy from you as a well educated lawyer...well then what should one expect from the not so well educated masses?

Ifran,
You are letting down the side by resorting to petty emotive comments. Have you also become a victim not able to live in a democracy? Bashir has given deep and intelligent thought to his article. You as a lawyer ought to be able to control your emotional reactions to comments and people that annoy you. I read your last article and the comments and couldn't be bothered posting on it as all was merely reactionary.

I'm with keith on the Peter Costello comments - Please explain!

Where do you stand on upholding Australian Laws??

To read exactly what Peter Costello said at the National Institute 25/2/06 on Citizenship.

http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/speeches/2006/004.asp

Response to kactuz:
You ask the question "Why is it that violence comes so easy to Islam?" without asking why does it come just as easy to the rest of us. Jesus was the pacificist par excellence and yet 15+ million people were killed by so-called Christian nations in World War I; Almost one million dead in the Rwandan Genocide.

Your idea makes no sense whatsoever. Think about it. 16 million dead! But I would not put the blame for one tiny scratch at the feet of Jesus.

I've said this before but too many people have been awestruck by the threats of Osama Bin Laden. He says the Muslim people are united behind him, even as Al Quada kills children and bombs mosques. And you seem to believe every vile word.

-:-
Response to Numbat and complicit others:
OBL sends his profound thanks for maligning this poet advocate of peace and common sense.

-:-
Response to David Boaz:
I'm somewhat confused by your post. Are you saying that the 'International Religious Freedom Report 2005' (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/) produced by the US State Department contains coded messages?

Looking at Malaysia, the report says "On April 25, 2005, two foreign Christian missionaries were arrested after distributing religious materials in front of a mosque in Putrajaya and were charged with 'disturbing the peace in a religious manner.' After 10 days, the Government dismissed the charges against the two men and released them." I'm assume no other relevant attenuating matters.

Just to be clear, I am 100% supportive of religious freedom and the above example from Malaysia is unsupportable.

But are you prepared to join me in this criticism? Are you glad that Australia has true religious freedom? For example, would you agree that Muslims have the right to peacefully distribute religious material* in front of an Australian church?

(* for the sake of argument, let's say the religious material is the following flyer about "Noah's pudding" http://www.intercultural.org.au/events%202006/Ashura/pdf/Ashure%20Flyer.pdf. For the record, I am hoping that you can provide answer in terms of Australian law applying consistently to all religions)

Looking forward to your thoughts.

I can totally understand Irfan getting upset at coach for his emotive provocative comments, but I'm not sure I understand what Peter Costello's ignorance is of Sharia. Didn't some group attempt to get it implemented in Canada somewhere?

There probably are Aussie muslims out there who would like sharia law to be implemented, but I'm not sure if they are much of a threat at this stage. Doesn't hurt to let them know early on I guess in case they get their hopes up. But as I said before, the best message Costello and Howard can send to radical thinking muslims planning to stay in Australia is to back it up with action. Send the Pakistani rapists pleading for cultural understanding on the next plane out.

keith and Philo

I support your posts.
Cheers
Kay

I agree with Boaz and Coach we as a Christian nation 65% believers and 1.5% Muslim watch what is going on as Muslims in Canada have demanded Sharia law .
What I just saw on 60 Minutes on animal cruelty to OZ cattle made me cry as I saw these muslim people stabbing live cattle in the eyes ,then cutting the tendons in their legs ,so they cannot stand up throwing them off trucks .
Islam is a cruel belief system,full of laws ,push button prayers at anytime the buttons pushed down you go,,no heart felt prayers humility,privacy ,works,and not evident only fear of imams.
I just viewed another forum online , one comment below sheehanjihad

February 24th, 2006 at 8:35 am
Truly, the only thing that means anything to muslims is simple….Kill as many infidels as you possibly can as often as you can, or, survive being killed by infidels and whatever sect of Islam you dont belong to. Anyway you look at it, muslims live to kill and die in the process. So asking them to practice what they preach is telling the so called moderate muslims to get out there and kill somebody too. Moderates are that way because they are afraid of being killed by their own people for not adhering to the strictest of religious codes. So, they live in fear, or live to be feared. There doesnt seem to be an in between.

Muslims kill Muslims iran and iraq did for 8 years look at Sunnis killing Shiites in Iraq daily.

This is a hostile,raging mad ,lunatic religion of idolising Mohammed.

Jesus Christ died for muslims and He is appearing to many Muslims in mosques and dreams calling them (check the net) He loves you Muslims so much .
All you have to do just as I did ask Him to show himself real to you repent of sin ask for frogiveness and He will come into you eternally.
The Holy Spirit is unique to Christians and He (Spirit of God ) will tell you things to come and counsel you in love .

DAVID LATIMER

On Malaysia, things have changed soooo much there in the past decade.
It really is a very nice place these days, and as I said, the PM is a gem. I'd take him as an uncle anyday. Same with Datuk Hussein Onn, (former PM) but not Dr Mahathir.

I would welcome Muslims giving out literature at my Church ! because I would relish the thought of setting them straight about their prophet. I'm more lick than bite in person though :)

Around the world, in every nation and tribe, there are those who name the name of Jesus, their Lord and Saviour. Confirming the words of the Lord Himself "Go into all the world, making disciples from all peoples"

On this article, I still feel that those who are so lavish in praise are in danger of missing the subtle para message. "Islam is ok, its just a few bad eggs giving it a bad name"

Bashirs litany of Western colonial sins was not accompanied by a list of Islamic expansionist sins, and it should have been.

Irfan takes the same approach. Neither of them are challenging the fundamentals of Islam itself.

By all means criticize Jesus, look at what He did and said.. and take we Christians to task on that basis. Sadly, when I look at Mohammed, I find a man who was all of the things listed repeatedly in these forums. No one has denied them, and Islamic sites don't deny them they just give spin or PR.

When commenting on the murders of Kaab bin Al Ashraf and the daughter of Mawan, an Islamic site from Malaysia just points to the 'precarious nature' of the Muslims and their need to defend themselves, thus confirming the murders of these people.

So, from the very beginning and the history closest to Mohammed, murder of mockers and opponents was quite acceptable. This did not happen in all cases, and the cases where mercy was shown are those which are used in the PR/sugar coated version of Islam.

Contrast this with Jesus, and the Apostles.

Alchemist,

http://www.newcriterion.com/archives/24/02/what-dark-ages/

Near the end of his book, he [Stark] quotes from a study group of Chinese scholars who have been trying for at least two decades to figure out the success of the West, as compared with China itself and Islamic culture:

"One of the things that we were asked to look into was what accounted for the success, in fact, the pre-eminence of the West all over the world. We studied everything we could from the historical, political, economic, and cultural perspective. At first, we thought it was because you had more powerful guns than we had. Then we thought it was because you had the best political system. Next we focused on your economic system. But in the past twenty years, we have realized that the heart of your culture is your religion: Christianity. That is why the West is so powerful. The Christian moral foundation of social and cultural life was what made possible the emergence of capitalism and then the successful transition to democratic politics. We don’t have any doubt about this."

Upwardly mobile Chinese seem especially attracted to Christianity, which they see as the key to modernity.

And here is how Stark begins his concluding three pages:

"Christianity created Western Civilization. Had the followers of Jesus remained an obscure Jewish sect, most of you would not have learned to read and the rest of you would be reading from hand-copied scrolls. Without a theology committed to reason, progress, and moral equality, today the entire world would be about where non-European societies were in, say, 1800: A world with many astrologers and alchemists but no scientists. A world of despots, lacking universities, banks, factories, eyeglasses, chimneys, and pianos. A world where most infants do not live to the age of five and many women die in childbirth… "

You’ve said elsewhere dimensionalist evolutionism is your metaphysic and that with your special knowledge your consciousness will survive into the fourth dimension.

I understand now why you must constantly attack Christianity, as soon as you stop you’ll feel the pull towards it.

That was a great article. One of the most refreshingly honest and, at least potentially, optimistic exposes on the most taxing subject of our times in a long long while. The author would be a welcome guest at my table anytime.

It is seem that right wing extremists and all white racists, with or without hood, try to turn the Christians again the muslims. The story started from the famous speech of President Bush, an immature, Irresponsible and dangerous for our planet, politician, when he declared that he started a new crusade! If we want to be honest the Christians (I am Christian) and most times in the name of Jesus made the most crimes again humans, but as winners never passed from the court. I think it is better to try to solve the existence problems than to try to create new one.

If anyone wishes to learn about the values of sharia, you can find a short summary by visiting the website of the centre for independent studies, going to their search feature and typing in the word 'islam'. click on the first item and you will find an edited version of the Acton Lecture deliverd in 2002 by Professor Mohammad Fajrul Falaakh from the Gadjah Mada University in Indonesia. Read the 5 values expressed there and compare them to Peter Costello's 6 values in his Sydney Institute speech.

keith, sharia principles themselves state that sharia laws dealing with governmental matters and criminal sanctions do not apply outside a sharia state. and the only sharia-endorsed amputations i am aware of in australia are halal slaughter and a procedure that i underwent when i was a wee-toddler.

Martin, What does your reply have to do with theologists in Australia. Spark, now theres a good humourist, good fiction.

“You’ve said elsewhere dimensionalist evolutionist is your metaphysic and that with your special knowledge your consciousness will survive into the fourth dimension.”

I don't remember ever saying I had special knowledge. We live in a dimensional world, your god if he existed would be in another dimension unable to be seen by us, just common sense and logic. Its easy to suck your lot in, your fear knows no bounds.

Sadly you have no idea of theology, being paranoid as you are about reality. Drawing me to your beleifs,I was born into the church, spent years ordained, studied and traveled to find some veracity for its methods and expressions. Conclusion, a violent myth.

You and your ilk constantly show how narrow and blind you are, you can't even accept a member of your oppositional faction being honest. You conveniently forget the sordid on going history of your own christian monotheistic faction, just read the news today about Ireland, no change there, they just had a rest from the normal christian violent approach, now they are back into it.

Sadly its only the infantile that try to change history or rewrite it to suit themselves. It's well known that most of the Old Testament comes from other, more ancient, writings. Even Jewish writers admit that most of the "Hebrew" writings were merely taken freely from Sumerian, Babylonian, Egyptian, and even Greek sources. The Book of Job is from an early and obscure Greek play. There are "many parallels" between the Vedic Hymns and the Books of Joel and Isaiah. The Book of Genesis is based on the Sumerian creation myth. The story of Noah comes from the Sumerian legend of Gilgamesh. The Psalms were taken word for word from Akhenaton's Hymns to the Sun, written 600 years earlier in Egypt. The Ten Commandments were taken wholly from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Thats real history, unlike your deluded myths.

Response to David BOAZ:

Just to be crystal clear on a certain point, there is nothing in any of my posts which criticises Christianity, and in my whole life I have never had reason to criticise Jesus. If you want to compare Islam with Christianity then I would prefer to stay out of that argument and keep my personal belief system off-line. I think you already know that, but would like to make that clear.

Glad to get answer supporting religious freedom.

You describe article such as this as: "Islam is OK, its just a few bad eggs giving it a bad name" and you rightly praise Christianity as being able to cope with criticism.

But this article is really about saying that Islam should be better able to cope with criticism too. Most people here have cheered that.

On the other hand if you are suggesting that Islam is not OK and the bad eggs (the terrorists) are its true champions, then a catastrophic war is inescapable. You do understand the nature of a self-fulfilling prophecy, don't you?

Muslims are to be pitied most because they have been taken down the wrong road ,and this was after Christ ascended and called Himself "The Son of God", His Father did not need a wife, as Muslims seem to think,it was all spirit.
We must pray for them to see Jesus as He is,His miracles alone atest to His Love and authenticity,fed the 5,000 and from 2 fishes and five loaves of bread ,He walked on water ,stilled the storms and rose people from the dead,healed thousands and yet we have people wanting to follow a lesser god.

What an insult to Christians and Christianity.

Bible NT ;2 Corinthians 4v4 , whose minds the god (satan) of this world has blided who do not believe the Gospel of the Glory of Christ who is the image of God should shine on them .

Today on "This is Your", Day channel 10 at 5.30 am we saw a lady healed of trilateral neuralgia with no hope but Jesus stepped in and she was healed of this agonizing pain another gave testimony of Jesus healing her at this crusade of inoperable massive brain tumor with months to live she was healed by Jesus 2 years ago and we have seen Muslims ,Hindus,Sikhs and Buddhists healed at these meetings from deadly diseases.
We have seen a video of a man in Nigeria raised from the dead in 2002,Jesus raised him and he was dead for 3 days came to life after being embalmed at a Reinhardt Bonnke church meeting and he told what he saw in Heaven.
So this shows the Jesus Christ is alive, He Loves anyone everyone and will accept you anytime.
What I am saying is, all you have to is believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.
Muslims please hear this GOD LOVES YOU

I enjoyed this article for its lack of hysteria and its articulation of certain ideas. Another article in this vein from late last year (and from another opinion journal too) is here - http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007743

Alchemist,

Job is not meant to be historical but what is it about Greek similarities to Job that offends you? Why would a loving God prevent the Greeks from making use of its wisdom? Probably part of the canon of the Old Testament because of its universality.

If you were true to your name you would have been brought to Jung and the archetypes and you'd understand mythology (read CS Lewis also). Like the migratory patterns in birds we’re born with our own patterns the details of which we feel with particulars of our own lives but the patterns are universal. Screen writers must understand these or the movie will not resonate with an audience.

Given humans have a nature and life is structured by these universal patterns of behaviour it is not unusual that similar stories are shared by all humans. Life flows through these myths, and God chose the Jews with whom to make historically true the myths all humans know. This is CS Lewis’ True Myth. I’m surprised an ordained minister is unaware of this.

The difference is that the story of the Jews’ covenant with God and Christ's dying and rising actually happened. It is God’s myth. He is acting within the nature he himself created. To what purpose would it be to act in ways unrecognisable by His children?

How would the pagans convert if they were not already acquainted with divinity in the dying and rising god. So the pagan mythologies are a preparation for the Gospels.

The Bible is just another mythology only if a priori one believes similarity equals plagiarism. It does not. It equals love.

Understand mythology Alchemist, your unconscious choice of screen name ‘co incidentally’ might be your salvation. God can be unscrupulous, he won’t stop trying to get his child back. And be careful not to equate a change in your psyche those years ago when you apostasised with the action of the good spirit.

Your lack of colds and flu you believe is part proof of the truth of dimensional evolutionism. Understand Job.

Irfan MATE, sharia sounds like a real bag of laughs, clittoral circumsision anyone? HMMMMMMM

David the world needs to be purged every 50 years or so, war leaves many more behind than it takes. Kill em all let GOD sought em out.

All this discussion over what amounts to fairytales

The alchemist: No!- sorry - Not well known at all that the Bible stories came from the sources you claim. Err Remember it's the blue tablets weekdays and the white tablets on the weekends. If you forget again we will have another load of rubbish to plough through.
aNTONIS: No! - Again - No! It's the pagan brutal, death-loving, misogynistic moslems against everyone else actually. It's pagan moslem preachers who defame the West, Christianity, the Jews and all other reiligions. It's the raving, bloodthirsty and possibly certifiable pagan moslem clerics who preach death and destruction to the infidels, and unbelievers. It's the pagan moslem psycopaths who laud and encourage craven, cowardly and incredibly stupid suicide bombers, both men & women. It's not the way you say at all. A tip - if you cannot afford newspapers go to the local library, that's a place - Oh! forget it just wrap yourself in your ignorance. numbat

DAVID... (Latimer)...c'mon.. live dangerously.. TELL us ur belief system ? :) No, don't worry, what you personally believe will not change the truth or falsehood of the positions put forward here, though it makes for more interesting posts at times..

I have not suggested you desire to criticize Jesus, I'm just saying 'By all means do so' on the basis of the material available, or better put, criticize US on the basis of His teaching and life from that same material.

Let me risk boring you all by re-stating the point, that Bashir did a very good job on outlining some very important truths, about Muslims being open to criticism, but did he offer for ISLAM as a belief system and its prophet to be criticized ?

He seems to have aimed his barbs at those who 'misrepresent' Islam and its prophet. His comment "Mohammed fought for free speech" is VERY telling here. Is he prepared to be scrutinized on the grounds of Mohammeds authorization of the murder of a mocking Jewish poet ?

So, I'm very stubbornly draggggging a posting team (note the arrogance 0_^ :) face to face with the 'unspoken' message from Bashirs article. "Islam is ok in itself" Something I disagree with to the point of it maybe one day costing me my life.

Your point about the self fulfilling prophecy is indeed a possibility if we take the following view

a) Islam is evil
b) We must make war on it immediately.

But given the West's rather 'wait till they kick us in the balls' (Poland, Pearl Harbor) approach to international conflict, I doubt this will be a concern.

We also actually have little problem with such belief systems in 'their' countries.

Encroachment on ours by stealth or aggressive minorities is the worry.

Irfan

Thanks for your response.

I liked it.

'keith, sharia principles themselves state that sharia laws dealing with governmental matters and criminal sanctions do not apply outside a sharia state. and the only sharia-endorsed amputations i am aware of in australia are halal slaughter and a procedure that i underwent when i was a wee-toddler.'

I liked my questions also.

(1)'What is your opinion of Bashir's view? Do you agree with all of it, part of it or none of it? '

Am I missing something important? I am scratching my head...thankfully giving my back a break...among other things.

(2)'Would you mind explaining to me exactly how Peter Costello's views on sharia are ignorant? '

Your response in regard to this is not as was portrayed by the cleric referred to by Costello . I'll quote Costello.

'The refusal to acknowledge the rule of law as laid down by democratic institutions also stabs at the heart of the Australian compact. The radical Muslim Cleric Ben Brika was asked in an interview on the 7.30 Report in August last year:-

“But don't you think Australian Muslims – Muslims living in Australia – also have a responsibility to adhere to Australian law?”

To which he answered:-

“This is a big problem. There are two laws – there is an Australian law and there is an Islamic law.”

No this is not a big problem. There is one law we are all expected to abide by. It is the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian Constitution. If you can't accept that then you don't accept the fundamentals of what Australia is and what it stands for.'

Now I'd have to conclude Costello, was not, as you claim, ignorant of sharia law. Since he and we know Australia is no sharia state then it follows he was still pretty much in agreement with your explanation. However perhaps you should direct your comment re ignorance of sharia law to a certain Muslim cleric. He's stated exactly the opposite of your view. I accept your explanation of sharia law. It is understandable and reasonable.

Irfan

Circumcision isn't an amputation. If it was then I'd have cause to be bitterly angry with my parents and the surgical staff attending mine. ;-)

Ahem...hate to raise the topic ...but your definition of multiculturalism? I've seen Costello's. I think it's worth discussing.

Finally thank's for the reference...buggar I'll have to spend half a day reading now.

regards keith

For ALL:
Read a very critical Somalian response to Bashir Goth:
http://wardheernews.com/Articles_06/feb/19_Homily.of.devils.advocate_Ismail.htm

[Please no responses saying how this proves me wrong. Perhaps you can know something of Bashir Goth's true audience and what his is up against. Very sceptical of the west, just as some here are sceptical about Islam.]

-:-

Response to David BOAZ:

You say you're worried that criticising Islam will "maybe one day costing me my life." You have a legal right to criticise, but what is achieved by it? Why "relish the thought of setting them straight about their prophet" as per my example? Only terrorists and extremists believe Islam is about what you say it's about. Should they then not respond as though you are promoting terrorism?

You also say "Encroachment on ours by stealth or aggressive minorities is the worry." I thought I'd set the forum straight on the great ham sandwich affair. Your answers keep suggesting that you lack confidence in Australian values, our democracy and the protections it offers all citizens. The police are not going to abandon the law.

Australian laws and values promote religious tolerance and religious freedom. Muslims can practice Islam in Australia -- there is no encroachment on your practice of Christianity unless the whole constitution is abandoned.

And here is the rub: You say "We also actually have little problem with such belief systems in 'their' countries." Actually, we do have a problem with religious intolerance and injustice in other countries. Australia does believe in universal human rights. Australia is an active member of the United Nations.

So at each point, you appear to be at odds with the Australian way.

-:-

Response to Scotty: Are you saying the baby-boomer generation is the silver lining of World War II? Now, that’s lateral thinking

For ALL:
Read a very critical Somalian response to Bashir Goth:
http://wardheernews.com/Articles_06/feb/19_Homily.of.devils.advocate_Ismail.html

[Please no responses saying how this proves me wrong. Perhaps you can know something of Bashir Goth's true audience and what his is up against. Very sceptical of the west, just as some here are sceptical about Islam.]

-:-

Response to David BOAZ:

You say you're worried that criticising Islam will "maybe one day costing me my life." You have a legal right to criticise, but what is achieved by it? Why "relish the thought of setting them straight about their prophet" as per my example? Only terrorists and extremists believe Islam is about what you say it's about. Should they then not respond as though you are promoting terrorism?

You also say "Encroachment on ours by stealth or aggressive minorities is the worry." I thought I'd set the forum straight on the great ham sandwich affair. Your answers keep suggesting that you lack confidence in Australian values, our democracy and the protections it offers all citizens. The police are not going to abandon the law.

Australian laws and values promote religious tolerance and religious freedom. Muslims can practice Islam in Australia -- there is no encroachment on your practice of Christianity unless the whole constitution is abandoned.

And here is the rub: You say "We also actually have little problem with such belief systems in 'their' countries." Actually, we do have a problem with religious intolerance and injustice in other countries. Australia does believe in universal human rights. Australia is an active member of the United Nations.

So at each point, you appear to be at odds with the Australian way.

-:-

Response to Scotty: Are you saying the baby-boomer generation is the silver lining of World War II? Now, that’s lateral thinking

Bashir Goth is a scholar worthy to be listened to compared to the unquestioning devotion given by Ismail Ali Ismail to Islam. Bashir is a reformer and thinker that can bring the light of God upon the evil practise and behaviour of a barbaric interpretation of the Kor'an. Bashir follows in the footsteps of Jesus who confronted the advocates of Judaism in their blindedness to the truth of God; so they sought his death for blaspheming their great religion.

No religion is great that cannot examine itself!!

Compare this Quote: "
Bashir Goth has tried in his article "Cartoons put a great religion to the test" (WardheerNews.com, 10 February, 2006) to be too clever by half and has in the process laid bare both the bankruptcy of his argument and his malevolence towards Islam and Moslems. The very title of his article is of course offensive to Moslems and is indicative of a schizophrenic-personality approach to treating an important and burning issue: "important" because it has brought to the fore how the West and The Moslem World see each other, and "burning" because it is topical but, literally, too hot an issue to play with. Islam is too great a religion to be tested by idiotic cartoons drawn by an evil person and promoted by the diabolical others who propound a boundless and therefore mindless freedom of expression. The writer would have been probably justified to choose as the title of his article words which would have reflected the view that the cartoons put the tolerance of Moslems to the test. But he chose to drag Islam into his diatribe against Moslems a diatribe which leaves little doubt that the writer is attacking Islam itself in a roundabout way."

Ismail Ali Ismail cannot see that Bashir's article was exactly a call for Muslims to account for their infantile barbarity compared to the essentials of Islam as Bashir sees them; of peace and tolerance.

David Latimer

"Australian laws and values promote religious tolerance and religious freedom. Muslims can practice Islam in Australia -- there is no encroachment on your practice of Christianity.... "

This might sound nice on the surface, and would indeed make a good political sound bite, but:

It does not change the natural inclination for highly driven minorities to advance the interests of their community or religion in incremental ways which ultimately add up to a considerable 'encroachment' on the status quo here.

You mention 'tolerance' but sadly, it is the host who is meant to be tolerant, rather than minorities. If this were not the case, the Ham sandwich affair would not have occurred, nor would the idea of calls to prayer via PA system from mosques be seriously countenanced.

The Hamtramck affair (do a search) showed clearly that Islamic minorities do not see any offence in loud rantings from mosques claiming "There is no God but Allah and MOhammed is his Prophet" but I sure do and I'm confident most aussies do also.(except maybe you)

The reason I'm so persistent in criticising Mohammed, is that Islam stands or falls on "him". If he was not from God, then Islam is also not from God. If that is true, then Muslims are deluded, deceived, and on the wrong track. You may ask 'Why don't you scrutinize atheism or secularism or humanism with the same passion' ? Well..I have done, do and will continue to, but those other forms of unbelief are less malignant than Islam, and will usually (unless Alchemist becomes the new Feuhrer) let we Chrstians build new Churches and propogate our faith.

David, you seem to suggest the UN is some kind of social Messiah, but I've debunked the UN on numerous occasions as a cesspool of convenient manipulation for vested national/communal interest, and a result of power balances based on military force many times. I have no faith or trust in it.

The UN resolutions might be something to laude while sipping latte in Lygon street, but in reality they reflect the previous paragraph.

BD

"It does not change the natural inclination for highly driven minorities to advance the interests of their community or religion in incremental ways which ultimately add up to a considerable 'encroachment' on the status quo here."

For a change I completely agree with you. Hence my concern about the Family First Party and the apparent unrepresentative proportion of christains at the top of federal politics. When muslims start fielding candidates under a "sharia law party" (named that or otherwise) then their candidates can go to a similar position on my ballot paper to that occupied by christain fundies posing as family values candidates, extreme leftwingers posing as environmentalists and the like. In the mean time your mob are a much bigger immediate threat to my freedoms than Australia's muslim population.

R0bert

Martin Ibn Warriq, numbat, Before you make unqualified statements, read, Akhenaton's Hymns to the Sun, the Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Sumerian creation myth and the Vedic Hymns. Plus the hundreds of documented historical facts providing very interesting reading and logical explainations for biblical origins, compared to christian illusions.

However as you can't qualify anything you say except with illusion and examples of the barbarity of your beliefs(revolving door scripture), you may not be able to read, just repeat metronome parrot fashion what your church and preachers dictate. It's always those that sit in the pews and self appointed zealots that have the most to say about that which they don't understand. It's easy to see you haven't researched anything and are too frightened to actually avail yourselves of the knowledge freely available.

Just to give you a bit more to get rabid about, the New Testament texts may have actually been authored by a Roman aristocratic banking family, "Piso". The Pisos had the New Testament written in attempt to destroy Orthodox Pharisaic Judaism, by creating a religion that offered a solution to the Jewish problem in the Roman empire and the world.

I know you won't, as it would require you to learn. It's hard to find a dedicated christian that really wants to know the truth and is prepared to research their belief fully and not just through a fictional rendition of mythology. I can drop in a few more facts if you like, we could start with jesus, "Apollonius of Tyana," or “Yeshua Ben Pandeira”, whichever one you want to call him.

Martin,“Your lack of colds and flu you believe is part proof of the truth of dimensional evolutionism”

That may be your uneducated opinion, but mine is that I have a good diet free of diary, animal fats and chemical additives. I have control of my body and mind with no addictions nor lack of mental strength, unlike you. Numbat, I never use pills, but you certainly know which ones and when to take them.

R0bert

I'm with you - re:"Hence my concern about the Family First Party and the apparent unrepresentative proportion of christains at the top of federal politics. When muslims start fielding candidates under a "sharia law party" ....etc

The following:

Hillsongs mission statement

'To reach and influence the world by building
a large Bible-based church, changing mindsets
and empowering people to lead and impact
in every sphere of life'

This statement really concerns me, especially where it states "changing mindsets" - Whose? Why? Are other mindsets somehow wrong?

"Empowering people" - sounds warm and fuzzy. But empowering which people? To do what?

And finally

"Every sphere of life"

The personal sphere? - Hands off my sphere!

The political Sphere? - Separation of church and state absolutely essential.

I too fear take over by any fundamentalism. Be it Muslims, Christian, Hindu or Venusian.

With the current crisis among Muslims I wonder if a lot of the fear expressed as hatred towards Muslims isn't just fear of dogma in general

When Muslims came to Australia, they knew they were coming to a predominately European culture. They knew the criminal and civil codes were not Sharia but predominantly English, certainly in origin.

As Peter Costello said, if you want to live under a Sharia legal system, go live in Iran.

The issue with law is we can only have one. If we have more than one we end up with dual and thus duplicitous standards, (e.g. how does a five year term in prison relate to losing ones left hand?).

(I have the same concerns and reservations about aboriginal tribunals dealing with aboriginal offenders under tribal law standards.)

Peter Costello was totally, completely and absolutely right. We do not need to import a bunch of xenophobes who do not want to assimilate or participate into the mainstream of Australian social institutions but want to be treated separately, with their own separate institutions.

Such attitudes and expectations work against and turn back all the efforts of everyone who believe that “segregation” is evil

spot on r0b and scout.

here is a little song, care of the Dead Kennedys.(updated a little from the 80's)

You call yourself the Moral Majority
We call ourselves the people in the real world
Trying to rub us out, but we're going to survive
God must be dead if you're alive

You say, 'God loves you. Come and buy the Good News'
Then you buy the president and swimming pools
If Jesus don't save 'til we're lining your pockets
God must be dead if you're alive

Circus-tent con-men and Southern belle bunnies
Milk your emotions then they steal your money
It's the new dark ages with the fascists toting bibles
Cheap nostalgia for the Salem Witch Trials

Stodgy ayatollahs in their dobble-knit ties
Burn lots of books so they can feed you their lies
Masturbating with a flag and a bible
God must be dead if you're alive

Blow it out your ass, Jerry Falwell
Blow it out your ass, Jesse Helms
Blow it out your ass, Ronald Reagan
What's wrong with a mind of my own?

You don't want abortions, you want battered children
You want to ban the pill as if that solves the problem
Now you wanna force us to pray in school
God must be dead if you're such a fool

You're planning for a war with or without Iran
Building a police state with the Ku Klux Klan
Pissed at your neighbour? Don't bother to nag
Pick up the phone and turn in a fag

Blow it out your ass, Tony Abbot
Blow it out your ass, Steve Fielding
Ram it up your c+nt, Dana
Cos God must be dead
If you're alive
God must be dead
If you're alive

The Christian majority in OZ has tried to deliver a soft gospel (feel good ) no Hell,no repentance ,lots of music and entertainment,lovely soft preaching at the pulpit ,never offending, so we a have a society out of control and we do need control ,church is very little difference to the worldly unbeliever's I am one of them ,a Christian a follower of Christ.

What we need, is Hell fire preacher's and some voluntary pray - ers to wake Aussie's up before too late ,as Indonesia waits in the wings to take Australia if they can ,assisted by any Muslims nations willing to help.
At the moment they are too busy killing each other in ME.

The critic of churches and Christians above, is right, in many ways we are not a light in the community ,except the good ol salvo's although we sent many people to Archai and other non Christian lands to help and always do ,just as the USA always do too,so I ask were you one of them helping others ?

The USA had to invade Iraq otherwise they would invade ( the Muslism) look at Iran, would takeover USA ,Australia,NZ and UK, which they are having a good try at doing .

The UK is the most Islamised Western country in the world,to their sorrow, for allowing multiculturalism in .

I never see Muslims flying in supplies of water, food,tents and medical aid to non - muslims nations where by we Christians put humans first (God's Love) we are not racist or colour concious .

Muslims are racist ,and religion fills their otherwise dull days .

To get an idea of real Islam go to (www.Alberto Rivera.com )and read on line ,"The Prophet", in comic form, a history of Islam from the beginning . Then you can criticise Christianity .
What other religion would you prefer?

All others have failed including religion of humanism,atheism and hedonism all cause chaos.

Bashir Goth, Just read your article and skimmed through the responses. Usual there. Especially I notice the "political correctness" of the usual enthusiasts.

One thing I like about BG's article is it is an example of not letting political correctness restrict your writing or comments. Too many people, especially extremists, think it is a just an excuse to ignore the accepted academic and behavioural boundaries and present unrefereed works (works that a high-schooler can pick as positioned propaganda) as academic writing and slag off at people that they are clearly prejudiced against.

I just wish we had some Christians who were brave enough to take a long hard look Christian religion and its failings. Likewise, I wish people would see that Christianity is not all evil because of the behaviour, exploitation and shrewdness of people who stripped of their power and privilege are just - well their just stonehearts working the system.

Instead we get the the usual crew jumping on the band wagon to attack other religions. Too afraid to rile against their own religion because of their own political correctness.

The hypocrisy of those who use politcal incorrectness of the malicious kind to attack was seen recently with the flag-burning carry on. I think it funny that those who hijacked the move to not let political correctness hinder open discussion and turned into a reason to indulge in their prejudices are the first to whinge and whine when someone like the flag burners gives them a dose of their own political incorrectness. What they really wanted was to criminalise politcally incorrect behaviour that they helped provoke and promote. Of course, there was not too much concern showed when an equally offensive (politically incorrect ) suggestion that an Indigenous Australian should leave Australia if he didn't like it

Christianity is also insulted everday by Christians themselves. Just look at the way Christians think and act- not in that "this is wrong and that is that way" but in that "this is justified because the end is good way". So our Christian politicians lie and break the ten commandments because they adopt utilitatirian way whilst parading as Christians and with every deceit, every death, the authority of Christian rules is undermined and the ultimate end that a true christian asires to slips further away.

Paul tells us "Be not overcome of evil, But overcome evil with good." (Disables)

Response to 'its not easy being':

Your additional words to the Dead Kennedy song are disgusting and show a contempt for others. You have provided a very violent and offence reference. I don't find the vulgarity of your words are disguised at all.

Nobody should be treated in this fashion, even if they are a public figure. You may strongly disagree but not like this, especially when apologies were given and the record was set straight.

This is twice now, that posters have resorted to violent imagary against people. It is unacceptable.

Where are the forum administators. Because I will not participating in a forum where the rules are not respected or enforced.

Response to David Boaz:

No, we are all expected to be tolerant. There is no 'host'.

If you don't like the UN, that's your opinion, but you are exagerating my claims about it. What I said was "Australia is an active member of the UN" as evidence that Australians do care what happens in other countries. If anyone is following this tread, which I doubt, then for your original statement of "We also actually have little problem with such belief systems in 'their' countries." requires something to justify the "we", otherwise, it's at best "a few."

If you don't like the UN as as example of our promotion in justice in other countries, then take the Commonwealth of Nations, the International Parliamentary Union or the International Criminal Court as examples of our interest. Or for that matter our peacekeeping efforts in Cambodia, East Timor or Solomon Islands, to name a few.

It still seems to me that your views are at odds with all Australia does.

Oh Al: [If I may call you that?] So you read a great many ancient tomes. So you see them as written by honest,decent, truthful scribes, - they were human weren't they? So you see their writings as genuine and you see that the Bible writers copied them - how flamin original and how flamin scholarly? If there were any copying then they would have plagarised the Bible stories. You see I look at the Bible as from God Himself using various human authors. This Supreme Immortal Creator does not need to nor does He plagarise any writings by mortal, farting, dribbling,piddling, totally biassed and absolute lying humans. We of course are no better than them although we kid ourselves that we are. Back to your old books I think maybe you will find another story that the Bible has plagarised in your most scholarly and honest research. I bet you have a copy of "The Da-Vinci Code" and you probably think it honest, true and a good read? numbat

An earlier post by DL had a link to a rebuttal. In it, the writer quotes Goth..

"He (Goth) states: '… the Danish people have the right to behave the way they want to behave on their own turf.' "

then their rebuttal...

"If we apply the logic of his (Goth's) statement to Moslems behaving as they wish in their own countries would it not justify the kind of behaviour he is condemning in Moslems?"

In fact, the writer's own 'logic' provides an example of philosophical difficulty. To the west, Muslims don't have countries, citizens do. Islam's not a 'state' it's a religion like Judaism (which similarly and erroneously claims a 'state' for itself). 'Religion' is considered neither a salient nor appropriate plank of a nation state although it may well illuminate the social and historical character of a particular country.

To repeat the bloody obvious, the US (and Australia et al.) didn't invade "Islamland" or "Muslimia" or even seek to attack muslims specifically, it invaded a country called "Iraq".

I'm getting tired of non-Iraqis who've claimed the country/war for themselves as if they own these. Solidarity is one thing, bullsh*t is another.

Having lived there, albeit decades ago in Mek, it sh*ts me everyday of this inexplicable war to have to listen to propaganda of non-Iraqis who claim to know all about everything simply because of their religion. Until 'muslim' becomes a nationality I am not listening, it's generally divisive to discussions of Iraq and possible future models of statehood.

By 2006, it's become more than a mere irritation to listen to this Orwellian obfuscation from people who have probably never even been there. I wish I could ask Iraqis to speak up and tell the foreigners (myself included) what THEY think. It's their country, it belongs to them and they need unity not this claptrap they are served up by militant foreigners with ulterior motives.

Obviously we hope the war will end soon and be followed by real living peace, reconstruction and much better lives for everybody. Not because the Iraqis are muslims but because they are people.

Back to the thread ,it is very well done while truth is on display as it is here hope still exists that we can aviod war.
Not a lot but hope still.

David Latimer

My views are at odds with lack of common sense and foresight.
The views I'm expressing are held by most Aussies, including the government, (even my belief in God ..69%) though some would unlikely express them openly due to their sensitivity.

Our actions in E/Timor and Cambodia are to be applauded, but not because of the UN, more because we 'did' them. I'll concede that the UN does provide a forum for managing such things, but if you observe closely, if such action impinges on the perceived vested interest of a member of the 'security' (cough) council, it will be vetoed. So, my point is... the UN is only useful to the extent that it does not tread on 'toes' of those who run it.

Can you imagine the resolution on E/Timor's self determination referendum getting up if Indonesia was on the security council ? So, like it or not, the UN was, is and will continue to be a tool by which the 'winners' of the last World War to further their own interests.

OIL, DEALS and our FREEDOM.
In the same way that minority parties like the Greenazi's and Demofascists seek to impose their warped (in some cases)views on the rest of us due to 'balance of power', watch out for Oil rich nations to use their power to influence our freedom of speech and many other aspects to our legal and social system.
Just like I now have to pay $90.00 /45kg of gas, instead of $70.00 2 months ago, because China bought so much at 3c a litre, WE now have to SUBsidise it.

NO 'HOST' ?
David.. you are flying your 'international socialist' credentials rather high mate. Next you will be telling us 'no borders' and 'no race' (or 'culture' if you prefer) and of course "All religions lead to God".... etc. Well, not only do I disagree, I also think you are factually incorrect. There is a 'we' and we are the 'host'. Other posts refer to Australian heritage and identity.

David_Latimer. Picture this (as it happened).

The Keystone
Palo Ato
Feb 17 1986

Peligro, East Bay Ray, Klaus Flouride are playing a slow version of MICKEY MOUSE. Jello Biafra comes on stage dressed as right-wing, moral majority, Christian lodge type person.

Following is his diatribe (sermon). "How many of you were at the Stone in San Francisco last night.
You'll know that the police came down early and sent you all home waving clubs to make sure your tale stayed between your legs. (remember the voice is that of a moral majority -parenthesis rancitas')

"It's all part of our plan to clean up this town, clean up this area and wipe away all that devil music.

MICKEY MOUSE still playing slowly (army march song at time).

"McCarthy is alive and well in our church and we're going to take our sewing needles from God and split your lips again and again and again until your mouth is sewn shut.

"And then we'll start on your eyes.

"And then your ears.

"And then everybody will be happy and God fearing.

"The quieter you are, the stupider you are, the happier we will be.

"So praise the Lord.

"And pass the prize to the police.

"We are gathered here tonight to pay tribute to our Lord

"And send money to meee.

"Oh Lord in heaven let us pray.

"You TV viewers.

"I got your pay!

"And especially people like you who are going to go right on Seig Howdieing and singing along.

"M !
"I !
"C !
"K !
"E !
"Y !

"M !
"O !
"U !
"S !
"E !

"Mickey Mouse".

Song starts. Real fast - real loud. Bit of DK context there for you all. Jello and the Melvins are even better.. (punk attitude)

Ran, have you totally flipped your lid? - What was that all about?

hell yeah rancitas.

something else to go on

JERUSALEM—In a surprise announcement with far-reaching theological implications, Jesus Christ The Nazarene, founder of Christianity and spiritual leader of nearly two billion people, revealed Monday that He has converted to "the one true religion" of Islam.

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29540

Rancitas, saveur rance. - Quod venditor teneatur exprimere emptoribus amaritudinem vel rancitatem seu antiquitatem et statum dicti olei,

Response David BOAZ:

Two points:
1. We live in a democracy
2. We have almost 100% literacy

This majority you speak about must be non-citizens because they don't vote for candidates or political parties who share your views.

Quoting Peter Costello:
"[An] Australian citizen [is] expected to subscribe to certain values – loyalty to the country, respect for the rights and liberties of others, a belief in democratic Government and respect for the law ... If they embrace those values we can all live peaceably with each other, everyone will have their rights and liberties protected but people who don’t embrace those values then it risks the freedom and the liberty of others. ... We need to respect these values if we want our country to remain the kind of place that it is – free and open and tolerant. And that is the kind of Australia I want. I think that is the kind of the Australia the overwhelming proportion of our population wants."
http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/transcripts/2006/018.asp

These comments are in contrast to your views, and also suggest they are not supported by Australians. And your critique of the UN has nothing to do with the interest Australians have in promoting justice in other nations.

Oil has nothing to do with the topic.

I think you've lost this argument. Nothing in the last series of posts shows that your criticism of Bashir Goth is justified and your post of 27feb2006 2:03PM remains unsupported by any objective or persuasive reason, its just your own thoughts.

David....
I think you are misreading Peter Costello's very 'diplomatically put' statements.

I totally agree with his view, but lets remember he also spoke specifically about a particular minority and 'other views of law' in this context and thats why there are a lot of unhappy Muslim leaders right now.

The point of his statement was to underline that we ARE tolerant, and that if anyone tries to change things in an 'intolerant' way as in introduce Sharia law, then they are most UNwelcome.

Lets also remember he said "And if people wish to introduce some other legal system, they should be stripped of their citizenship" (words to that effect to my recollection)

So, I feel my position is vindicated by objective evidence. I really am not out to 'win an argument' so lets not go down that track.

I'm more concerned to alert people to the 'ravenous wolves' that reside under the 'sheeps clothing' of many radical Muslims.

Re the article, my main point was that Bashir outlined many things done by the West, but did not do so for the expansion of Islam, and he should have. The underlying message was

"Islam is misunderstood, and it is misrepresented, but basically its a wonderful faith"

and that.. I take great exception to.

BOAZ _ David

Hi mate. I found the last paragraph of your most recent post very thought provoking.

Cheers
Kay

I don't know what is so thought provoking about it.

David BOAZ is not actually quoting from the article; it's not what the article is about. This is so typical of BOAZ posts, saying Z person believes or says X, when it's simply not true or even evident. For example the Hume Council "ham sandwich" OR the Hamtramck, (Michigan USA) neither of which were explained factually, just an immediate jump to a false conclusion.

This is what David BOAZ said (27 February 2006 2:03:43 PM):
"We also actually have little problem with such belief systems in 'their' countries. Encroachment on ours by stealth or aggressive minorities is the worry." or in the last post: "'ravenous wolves' that reside under the 'sheeps clothing'".

He is unfairly implying that muslims cannot or do not want to live under Australian law OR worldwide that muslims do not hold democratic beliefs. Note the words "aggressive minorities".

What Peter Costello is saying is ... actually I will find a quote:
"... if you want to have tolerance of all religious faiths, you are going to have to have a secular state ... You need a secular state which DOES NOT favour between religions. You need a robust acceptance of the rule of law that governs everybody regardless of their faith or their culture or their language. You need a respect for the rights and liberties of others because I will never be able to practise my religion and my culture if there is somebody that does not respect me." http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/transcripts/2006/021.asp

I assume that the use of 'You'/'I' applies to any Australian -- not just Peter Costello personally.

Keep in mind the totality of his criticism of Bashir Goth is that he still believes in Islam. Peter Costello is talking about the "rule of law" where everyone is respected regardless of their religion.

Big, big difference.

And the rest of the Peter Costello's quote:

"And we can only do this under an agreed set of facts of rights and liberties.

And then where is this rule of law going to come from?

Well, in a democratic society it has got to come from the people and so what I am arguing very, very strongly is for a framework within which we can have a robust diversity and tolerance.

But, if our tolerance moves to such an extent that we say it is actually optional whether you have a secular state, or it is optional whether your laws come from a democratic legislature, or it is optional to recognise the rights and liberties of even people you do not agree with then that will compromise all of us.

So, I am actually for robust tolerance and diversity but my point is we have got to have agreement on the values.

And there are some values that are so important to that that they are not optional values.

And we have got every right to ask people to subscribe to those values.

If we want to have freedom of speech in this country, you have got every right to say to people you are not allowed to bash up somebody because you disagree with their views.

Every right to say that because if we do not say that we are not going to have freedom of speech and that is why I am putting forward here I think we have got to be quite unambiguous about those values.

I think we have got every right to say them and I can assure you I intend to keep on saying that."

Bd, "Islam is misunderstood, and it is misrepresented, but basically its a wonderful faith" and that.. I take great exception to.”

Isn't that what you say about christianity, misunderstood, mis represented, but is a wonderful faith. Same god, same origins, same illusions, same false statements.

Numbat, I see them as writers of history, not plagiarisers, as to their honesty or moral codes, I can't make a judgment on them. But weighing up the verifiable evidence, with some intelligent research, rather than blind unknowing faith, is how you can gauge what is verifiable and what s not. Considering the documents I referred to were written many hundreds of years before the old testament, and they were accessible to those who wrote the old testament, shows the veracity of their works and where the bibles originates from.

“This Supreme Immortal Creator does not need to nor does He plagiarise any writings by mortal, farting, dribbling,piddling, totally biased and absolute lying humans.”

I believe you are referring to yourself, so I accept you admittance of fallibility. Considering you believe that you are made in the image of your god, it is totally acceptable for you to describe that image truthfully, as your quote states.

No I don't have a copy of the "The Da-Vinci Code" , nor have I read it or seen the TV show on it, just news comments. As to the works I described and many others, they are a part of a true theologians studies, if they aren't then they are lacking in education. But then again I can see how truly educated in theological history you are, the hallmark of a true monotheist.