Martin:
During the Islamic revolution in Iran, Mr. Zarin Koub was left alone, to continue his professorship at the university in Tehran. That is a good indication of the respect he held as an Islamic scholar. Because many, many other intellectuals and literati in Iran at that time were promptly executed. Any of the mullahs now in power in Iran, if they have a college degree, had to have taken some classes from Mr. Zarin Koub.

Do you know of this man?
He is the guide line for Intelligent minds to follow, void of Post modern thourghtless-ness.
Awful expencive History Publications from Cambridge press though. The Answer is there.

GZ Tan as you suggested on another thread I should judge you by the strength of your analysis I'll give it a go based on your last post.

Fellow Human did not appear to be hinting at a belief that Jesus is a baby killer rather suggesting that the sources that Martin was using are very disreputable. No threats or hidden dirty "Jesus" just pointing out a problem with using that kind of material. If that is the best you can do the question of analysis is answered.

On the matter of judging based on niceness - I don't think so, rather the character displayed through peoples posts. Things like apparent honesty, fairness and a willingness to seek out a better understanding are the traits I value. I don't tend to admire those who's trademark is unprovoked nastieness so I guess that comes into it a bit/

One poster whom I have a lot of respect for is Col who is quite frankly (no offense Col) often quite brutal. I think that he tries to reserve it for those who want to play that way and if treated with a moderate level of courtesy will respond in kind. I respect Col because he is consistant in his posts with his claims about what he believes and is willing to look at the other side of arguments.

Likewise the beautiful and especially sweet Scout (thanks for the hug) has not always spoken sweetly about me. We've had our rough spots. Not always nice but willing to try to understand opposing viewpoints and willing to deal fairly.

Your spiritual war is a fantasy that you are others are trying to bring into the real world and cause real harm to real people with it, likewise with the extremist muslims. Time for all of you to "put away childish things", believe what you like but if it becomes about hurting others then a line is crossed.

R0bert

RObert,
Appreciate your feedback.

An accurate analysis will require knowledge on the nature of Islam.

Actually my attacks are on Islam. Whether it's FH or XYZ is irrelevant.

There can be NO doubt Islam is GUILTY as charged today.

It's an insideous force that warrants a collectiveness in the verdict - Muslims are guilty/suspects by association.

Unprovoked nastiness? Well, in the dock today are Muslims trying to overturn the 'guilty verdict' whereas many are arguing the prosecutor's case. Spiritual war is REAL.

Judging by FH's numerous posts, he's not innocent by any stretch because he purposefully projects a sugar-coated face of Islam whilst providing the mildest of rebuke to extremism as a token of gesture.

I respect 'Muslims' who recognise evil deeds of Muhammed and are getting death threats for demanding reformation of Islam. Not that I want their lives to be threatened, but that's unfortunately quite inevitable. Irfan's not one of them. Definitely not FH. There are so many Muslims todays, a mere handful of reformists is gross indictment of Islam.

Unlike others, Islam's uniquely deceptive and can be difficult to challenge. Learning about Islam from within is fraud with danger, as it's full of details and double-speaks which can easily be churned into sugar-coated teachings. Today there's much incentives for Muslims to 'sell' a positive image of the religion. Hence when visiting Islamic web/blog sites, it can actually be quite difficult to not agree they talk a lot of sense. To avoid been deceived, one has to have a big picture first. Not looking to FH and think a Muslim is like everyone else.

Muslims view on Jesus is matter of expediency. Despite what Muslims tell you, Jesus's actually just a 'prophet of convenience', best used to counter-attack Christians. Otherwise he's just a pain in the neck and won't make the slightest difference to Islam. Of course, FH won't admit to whether he believes Jesus is a baby killer. But to Muslims, information that justifies lowering the status of Jesus is gleefully accepted. Afterall they're intend on regarding Muhammed more highly than Jesus. These is much hypocrisy there.

Cartoons insult Muslims

Dear friends

I join all those who deplore the disproportionate response to the cartoons by a large number of Muslims in various countries. But what also concerns me is that Islam phobia and the ‘Kristallnacht in slow motion’ that the Howard government are deliberately engaged in will take heart from this violence overseas.

Muslims have handed an ace card to the sort of racially intolerant people we saw wrapped in the Australian flag at Cronulla. Fortunately most in Australia saw violence as an inappropriate response.

Everything happens in the context of other events. The illegal invasion and military occupation of Muslim countries like Afghanistan and Iraq and the threats against Iran, Syria, Libya, and Sudan are real not imagined insults against Muslims.

The torture of prisoners has included dog attacks and sexual humiliation. Mamdouh Habib had menstrual blood smeared on his face and the Howard government approved of such treatment. No charges were ever laid against him, nor have the people who carried out these outrages been punished.

The complete impunity with which Israel kills unarmed Palestinian civilians and keeps whole populations in the most humiliating internment is a major insult to other Muslims. Israel’s illegal and undeclared possession of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons makes that country a major WMD threat to the entire region of the Middle East. The US continues to bankroll with military and other aid a Zionist Jewish state (not secular or democratic as we are misled to believe).

The global power differential is very much to the detriment of Arab and Muslim peoples and there are many who feel a genuine grievance against the USA, Britain and others for foisting West-compliant dictators and so-called ‘royal’ families on them so the West could get the cheap oil that they need to run their economies.

There used to be a nice civilised and moderate enclave of countries in Scandinavia that were a beacon for us all, as aspirants for human rights. Unfortunately today’s politicians can make a name for themselves by resorting to what we charmingly call “dog-whistle politics”.

Willy Bach

GZ Tan - "It's an insideous force that warrants a collectiveness in the verdict - Muslims are guilty/suspects by association.". At least now you have put out in the open with that comment and others the drivers for you anti-muslim agenda. Correct me if I'm wrong here

You believe
- that you have special insight into Islam
- that all muslims are guilty and that the verdict of guilty stands regardless of their words or actions.
- the only exception to the above are muslims who hold similar views to yourself regarding Muhammed and who express those views forcefully.
- any muslim who appears to embrace peace, tolerance for other beliefs etc is just a very clever actor. The very act of seeming to to be a nice normal sort of guy just proves how guilty they are.
- that there is a spiritual war which you intend to act out on this earth (beyond praying about it).

It really seems to be a position where you refuse to allow your opinions to be influenced by actual events in the real world or any logical debate. A position that you believe justifies your attacks on muslims who have given no outward sign of being any kind of threat to the rest of us and who may in fact be part of our best chance of winding in the growth of militancy.

Somewhat past the point where the exercise of religious freedom is a harmless delusion and getting into the grounds where it becomes a threat to the rest of humanity. One of the scary parts of this is that non of the other christians on this site have thought to challenge your views so far - guilt by silence and association maybe?

GZ if your God is all powerfull let him fight his war, what you are doing at the moment is provoking conflict. Net impact is furthering my belief that a significant proportion of the blame for the conflict between some muslims and the west is provocation by people who hold views such as yours.

R0ber

RObert,

The reason no other christian is challenging GZ Tan is because he doesn't say anything that needs to be challenged. Stating truths and facts rarely need to be challenged except by the ignorant who think otherwise.

If some muslims are 'moderate’; it's either a deliberately hypocritical or unwittingly ignorant position .

As you know ignorance of the law does not mean innocence. ALL muslims know damn well what the west is: Evil. This knowledge is deeply seeded in their brains from infancy in their homes and schools.

It is not the west that has launched war on islam but their golden boy prophet for the last fourteen hundred years ago. Only to be interrupted by the crusades and subsequent colonisation.

The resurgence of islam we witness today is the result of recent decolonisation.

I wish we had some Jewish people in these forums to add their accounts of the true stories. But I guess they have nothing to gain or lose – they know who they are in God’s eye – and they understand too well what those arabs represent (spiritually or physically) to them: a mere nuisance that they can squash any time they wish; but chose not to, to maintain world peace... longer.

We don’t expect you or other outside viewers to understand the spiritual warfare that is taking place between good and evil. You only see and judge the obvious.

Remember Jesus answers to Pilate?

36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." John 18:36-37

Christians are on the winning team even if the world hates us.

"If the world hates you, (said Jesus) keep in mind that it hated me first.” John 15:18