>>How far some of today’s Muslims are from the golden example of the man in whose name they are causing so much destruction.<<

You've got to be kidding us - when was the last time you read your Qur'an Irfan?

Before you start cleaning up the acts of your religious people how about cleaning up the book that has started it all?

The only reason they have that Mob mentality is because of your prophet’s example of pillage, rape, slavery, adultery, incest, war, etc…

Are you reading/preaching a different islam? Shame on you!

Well Irf, you have put it very well. But doesn't' this and other actions by religious supporters of all factions, make someone with your understanding, question the veracity of you beleifs.

Considering the history of monotheistic religions, and their past and current hell bent race towards annihilation of everyone, doesn't that make you wonder as to whether there can ever be a peaceful outcome or future under the guise of religious peace.

Sadly this country will become involved in this form of action in the not to distant future, because of the pathetic approach of governments and the constant conflicts between monotheistic factions in their desire for power and control

But then again Irf, I feel that you get a bit of macabre pleasure from watching as the rabid evangelists crawl over each other to place blame.

Interesting food for thought Irfan Yusuf, that may help self reflection from both perspectives.

Another insightful piece Irfan for those willing to see.

I thought Irfan Yusuf's article was a very good one and quite balanced. Many of the Christian faith are good at pointing to some of the passages in the Qu'ran that are harsh but their Old Testament has some rather unpleasant passages also.

This article mentions a few of them http://www.religioustolerance.org/imm_bibl1.htm#geno

Even though I have no problems with cartoons I also believe that we shouldn't deliberately cause people to become upset by printing something that is deliberately offensive.

Muslims might like to watch the film The Life of Brian to show the irreverance some people in film have treated the Christian faith. It was just humour and hardly offensive. When this film was released people who didn't agree with it just didn't go and see it.

If you think a cartoon may offend you ... don't look at it.

Moderate Muslims like moderate Christians all are tarnished unfairly by the actions of the more extreme members of thier faiths.

Irf... no argument from me on the title of your topic....

Your opening paragraphs regarding the origins of the Crusades, is in fact a wonderful illustration of the terrible consequences of 'organized' religion, such as the RC, High Anglican churches and to a lesser extent the Lutherans, and also Islam.

The violence today, is no differnt really from the violence of yesterday, where popular feeling was capitalized on by powerful figures.

The Pope during the crusades, and Leaders of despotic regimes in Muslim countries today, where the 'common enemy' is a strong unifying and distracting force.

On the scene today though, you make the point and observation that the violence is the worst thing the Muslims can do. I agree, because while the Danish publisher has already apologised, it is falling on deaf ears in the Islamic world, thus confirming the very message of the cartoons.

The violence is a combination of motivations I suppose.

-An unconcious (though for some I'm sure it is also conscious) attempt to impose Islamic values on free western societies.
-A cry for recognition from helpless/powerless people.
-I also feel it is a natural outcome of the fundamental values of the religion, but having gone into that on numerous occasions, I won't repeat it again.

We certainly have a complex world right now. Some observations.

-Nat Geo chanel has a doco coming up "Countdown to Armageddon"
-Hamas elected, rejecting calls to moderate their 'death to Israel' stance
-Israel withholding funding.
-Saudi offering funding.
-USA in Iraq and the complication of the Cartoon controversy not helping.
-Global polarization over the cartoon issue.
-Iran seeking to go 'Nuclear'
-China...sitting..watching... waiting :)

blessings all.

Well, Irfan’s article is far more satisfying and hopeful than the screaming match between Christopher Hitchens and his Muslim ‘opponent’ last night on ABC News Radio on the matter of the cartoons. His last paragraph: “My message to Muslim mobs is simply this - before you consider tearing down the houses (and embassies) of others, think about cleaning up your own” sums up the worthy and mild opinions of an intelligent and educated Muslim who has spent all but a few months of his life in the West.

But, apart from the imams who have apologised to Denmark, and the Jordanian editor (a Muslim) who has found himself locked up for publishing the cartoons in his own paper in an attempt to demonstrate the silliness of the cartoons the mobs have over-reacted to, we are not dealing with intelligent, educated Muslims, surely? And that’s the problem, isn’t it; millions of illiterate Muslims and non-Arab speaking Muslims having medieval, irrelevant to modernity, nonsense pumped into their heads? A recent example is a Pakistani man proudly telling a non-Muslim scholar and writer of the great swathes of the Koran he had learned by rote (in Arabic) and how he was saving up for a translation so that he would know what it meant.

Cartooning Muhammad is uncalled from the point of view of taste and courtesy, even though there are many historical references indicating that the Prophet was not the ‘golden boy’ his followers believe. But freedom of speech must prevail, and Muslims – not just educated ones -- must understand that.

Irfan,
My compliments on a well balanced and articulate piece.

I would only wish the Western world leaders could also adopt this ‘clean your own house’ stance before meddling in others. The combination of poverty and lack of education are the two surest ways to both enslave and allow manipulation of a populace. The despots of the Middle East are no strangers to this.

However I would also argue that the Western world ‘leaders’ are also aware of this and are manipulating the social fabric of the west to achieve a similar (if not well cloaked) situation, for their and their God’s (read money) own ends.

Nice to see the majority of posters (of all persuasions) recognising your effort to promote more tolerance. Though typical that the likes of ‘coach’ have no ability to say anything other than rant on in a ignorant and close-minded way.

Irfan, again, keep up the good work…

If we are not required to consider each others sensitivities and feelings then how are we ever going to live in Peace and Harmony?

Irfan, thanks for such an honest and helpful article. Really good stuff. Maybe this is a place for one of those "agree" buttons which were mentioned on one of the other threads.

R0bert

Irf, A well written article.
I know others have commented to the same effect, but it has me rolling about laughing, to think that anyone would engage in violence to demonstrate their displeasure at their precious prophet being depicted as being violent. What a distinctly odd group of people these muslims are.
What makes it even more hilarious is that the historical records show that this so called prophet was indeed violent. I thought it was well established that he was a deviant serial pedophile, and murderer. But then that is against the standards of the day.
As for the Koran being the direct word of god, the recent finds in the Yemen show that it evolved, and has a history. But no one is allowed to study or talk about that. Yet another indicator of the
intellectual shakiness of the whole thing.

I too wish to add my compliments to your latest article Irfan. You have surpassed yourself this time. You said everything that needed to be said. I will continue to hope that the real muslims will not be too afraid to stand up as you do.

An interesting Muslim website (the prolific Irfan contributes here also) for more information on how the Muslim community is reacting to those who can only claim to be Muslim but simply aren't:

http://www.altmuslim.com/

Lighten up Muslims,

The greatest thing we can do is laugh at ourselves.

All this over a cartoon for Allahs sake. I am sure Mohammed will be up there laughing too.

Did you hear the one about the priest on the golf course? A fundamental difference between Muslims and non muslims is the serious attitude to everything.

You Muslims are good people, you dont embrace the sinful pleasures we embrace, you are committed to eachother and i would love my future children to be role models like Hasim El Masri for instance.

The best way to make friends is to laugh. Barriers can be broken. get a muslim and a christian pointing a gun at eachother and make them both laugh, i guarantee their will be no shots fired.

Lighten up. Reply by putting a cartoon of Jesus doing something stupid, give us something to laugh at.

If all this is over a cartoon, the world is well and truly F#@$%d.

Irfan

Your article reflects honesty, decency and courage.
The best solution is to cut the cartoons.
I thought them sarcastic and of course sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
The publishers and editors in the many sheep-like publications across the west could have applied a little decency, understanding and sensitivity.

Irfan
I have two questions of an historical nature, Around 900 years ago was the end of the caliphate? I've always looked at the period up until about 1100AD as truely enlightened. We in the west owe a great deal to the Muslims from that period for the knowledge transfered to us, for our number system and especially the concept of zero (We'd not be using computers without that) and our navigation systems. Hah there'd be no complaints about immigration :-). There was great tolerance and the various religions lived in relative harmony up to that point as well.
Was 1100AD the start of the not so light age?
I have an idea I read somewhere with the ending of the caliphate centralised control of the empire ended. The various 'provinces' in the Arab empire were then ruled by local leaders such as the one in Palistine.
Was the faith of Islam similarily decentralised at that point also?

There is no doubt that the cartoons are in poor taste, but then so are those who depict our Prime Minister [how come never Kim?]but a bit of satire never broke anyone's bones.
The over reaction would appear to come from the unintelligent mobs who have so little in their lives that this creates a bit of excitement, spurred on by those who want to make big trouble for the west.
Dr Ameer Ali, president of Australian Federation of Islamic councils said,"What is more important-to preserve the freedom of speech or to antagonise one fifth of humanity?"
In other words, the other four fifths of humanity had better shut their mouths.
Maybe all Muslims should be concentrating on improving their homelands, instead of living and complaining in the west. If your country is worth fighting for, you will fight. I know we will if our freedoms of speech or culture are threatened, we will fight.

Keith, "The publishers and editors in the many sheep-like publications across the west could have applied a little decency, understanding and sensitivity."

That would go equally as well for the sheep like muslims, would you not agree.

The Babylonians used a space as a placeholder for empty "columns" in 1700 BC. 1400 years later, they developed the first known symbol to stand for an empty place. It looked like YY.

It didn't stand for the number we know as "zero." and never used alone. The Mayans used a symbol for the number zero, independently of the Babylonians, sometime later. However the first records of the symbol we use for 0, is from Hindu writings from the late 9th century.

Muslims can improve their lot immensely by firstly, cultivating a sense of humour,and secondly by being more honest and open about the fundamentals of their religion.

They could start by absorbing the import of the material contained in the follwing reference.

http://www.wsfi.net/Documents/WHAT%20IS%20THE%20KORAN%20BY%20TOBY%20LESTER.HTM

Me thinks hell will freeze over before they have either the brains or understanding of how civilised societies should function, to do that.

MISLEAD

Let’s be realistic – far greater crimes are being inflicted by muslims worldwide than a stupid cartoon. Churches are being torched, Christians tortured, raped and forced into islam, writers and filmmakers assassinated, … the west reaction?

We live in a world were everyone especially leaders must have a thorough knowledge of the Qur’an, the hadiths, and islamic laws.

If we were threatened today with Fascism or Communism, I don’t think our leaders will be tolerating another Hitler’s Mein Kampf or a Karl Marx’s Das Kapital. So why I ask you should we tolerate islam’s supremacist goals and appease them every time they get offended or blow themselves up for their cause??

Let me assure all the misinformed sceptics that islam is far more potent then the above put together because islam is fuelled by ignorance and their cause is deified – has the seal of approval from their prophet and founder in the name of a god: Allah.

The “intelligent muslims” are the most dangerous of all. They do not blow themselves up or attack civilians and property; they are the brainwashers of the ignorant masses.

Each time the “west” naively backs off to accommodate any new impasse, a precedent is set, always favouring islam. New laws follow making “dialogue” more impossible.

The long term damage from restricted freedom of speech and expression (cartoons) is more damaging than a thousand bombs.

There is no such thing as moderate muslim. What makes them different (not radical) is their indifference or lack of knowledge of their own religion.

Don’t be mislead by the Irfans of this world. Next they will want to sell you that islam is a religion of peace and tolerance. Far from it.

Tragically our misinformed governments still believe that any religion is a good as the next. Not knowing that islam disregards everything we stand for and ruled by; including our constitution. Islam supersedes all other religions and policies.

Their first allegiance is to the nation of islam. The fact that they become fellow citizens does not guarantee any loyalty or commitment to their host nation.

Keith, before you get too ecstatic about the number zero and where it came from ... u better talk to the Hindu's who claim the Muslims got it from them :)

No doubt the Western stream of History owes something to the Islamic one, but hey, they also benefited from those they conquered and we kind of went 'ahead' while they stalled.

I don't quite see what the point is of mentioning such things... the issue here is the cartoons and the reaction.

Just on the subject of religious offense :) do you recall my gentle nudge and then your (what I thought was) sincere apology, which seemed a bit over the top to me, I wasn't after an apology, just alerting you that some language has the potential to hurt feelings, and then... you used Gods name again and 'Hi Boaz'.... err.. which made me think twice about your (uneeded) apology.... and here you are
making profound statements like

"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" :)

Note to self.. "watch this dude.. he seems to have many 'positions' on things" *grin*

Isn't it preferrable though, when we get a gentle 'nudge' rather than a cry to chop one up and spread the body parts all around the world ?
Your house is still intact.. no death threats...etc.

If I had a dollar for every time I've head "Jesus F*_*_*G Christ" etc.... I could retire. I think that kind of remark far and above exceeds the little bomb like turban on a cartoon character.
SouthPark regularly has a lame Jesus in it, many movies portray Christians as loony wimps and losers and idiots... Many movies about Jesus are grossly disrespectful.... Thing is, we believe people are accountable to God, not "us" in those types of matters.

But a democratically elected government which was voted in on a platform which would prohibit such stuff, would have every right to do so.

Cheers all,

I agree Irf, but I have a Book full of Arab Cartoons depicting Jews and Christians in a lot more inflammatory content than those on display from Denmark. I would go as far to say These pictures make the Denmark ones look like pre school finger paintings.
I think it is a typical case of Hypocrisy, It is a pity we can not post pictures, and there are 280 pages in this book: Peace: “The Arabian Caricature”. Perhaps if we put these on display it will calm the beasts. They might feel at home once more.

History has excised all honor from religions and their false prophets.

Irfan's religious quixotic stand in condemning, in the name "of a man he grew up to regard as a prophet", the destructive passionate anger of the Muslim "rabble" (his word), erupting of all things from "cartoons", is to say the least, breathtaking. In view of the fact that all official religious leaders of Islam by CONDEMNING the cartoons, and by implication freedom of expression, are the real instigators of the eruption of their brainwashed followers both in Europe and in Muslim countries.

Of course, Irfan as a Muslim Don Quixote does not attack the real cause of this eruption, which is deeply rooted in his religion, but the windmills of the apparent cause, clad as a diversion, i.e., "generals, emirs, kings, and presidents." But here lies Irfan's own diversion. As only by politicizing the religiously caused events he can evade the issue that the destructive violence of these events have the passion of fanatic Islam behind them and are far from being an antiquated or modern political diversion.

My advice to him is, that now that he is a grown up man it's time to outgrow the prophet that he grew up with.

Go to my blog: http://congeorgekotzabasis.blogspot.co

Ifran's ideas are good ,and I believe that muslims of the lower class,illiterates ,are being used worldwide by the wealthy ,intelligent,muslims to cause havoc worldwide.

What do these poor souls have to lose, as they are part of rent a crowd, to destroy and show hatred to West ,without the thought of consequences of their stupid actions?
No work,no homes,no education,no health care ,no hope , while we are being attacked (West) it takes the pressure off the wealthy arabs,muslims,islamic religious leaders,imams ,etc, to provide all these life's neccessities to them.

Chritian nations provide evreything for muslim immigrants and refugees without intolernace. Not so in their homes nations.

Why don't the super rich Muslims provide care for their ownI wrote much that Ifran did last week about treatment and archaic life styles of the muslims worldwide and was criticised for it.
Why do these poor souls have to pay for & make one visit to Mecca when they can't feed their own families? It is cruelty to their own.

I know I should not think like this and I know its a dreadfull thought.
But can we ever live together? my view is not just yet, has anyone burnt down a building after watching God being lampooned in south park?
No not realy others may not like my views but I do find it sad but true that the fact BOTH, sides need to understand the others is unlikely to happen without a dreadfull war no one needs but we may not aviod.
Islam seems unable and unwilling to take control, in my personal opinion.

Irfan, the inclusion of honesty and self-criticism in your article are two rare and essential ingredients in restoring a social fabric that history, sadly, has witnessed being ripped asunder.

That there are postings here that throw it back in your face exemplify the struggle that these two things have to overcome to survive and reach a potential that too many people cannot even imagine.

I am not a fan of Islam, though I know little of it other than the situations you put forward yourself in your article, but I am impressed by someone with the courage of their convictions in the face of a misguided fundamentalist groundswell of such prodigious proportions.

It is said that truth is the first casualty of any conflict. With this type of honesty and self-criticism, truth need not be a casualty at all.

People of all faiths could do a lot worse than take a leaf out of your book.

Thanks.

I thought I would draw readers' attention to an article we published on September 5, 2005 called "Making fun of Islam" by Jan Martel. It may be of interest to some readers in view of the recent controversy. You can read it here. http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=169
I have also added the link to the bottom of Irfan's article.
Regards
Susan Prior - editor

I think Tim Blair got it about right when he said:

>"Odd that this concern over maintaining the peace doesn't limit Muslim commentary on other religions or communities," Mr Blair said on his website.

"The Islamic Bookstore in Lakemba, for example, sells vicious anti-Semitic tract The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as well as various anti-Christian titles (Crucifixion or Cruci-FICTION?).

"Sheik Khalid Yasin, a regular guest lecturer in Australia, declared that there's no such thing as a Muslim having a non-Muslim friend and denounced modern clothes as the work of faggots, homosexuals and lesbians."<

While muslims demand we respect their narcissistic version of iconocentrism, they, through the agency of the Taliban destroy other people's icons such as the Buddha statues in Bamiyan. Barely a ripple was felt in the 'moderate' muslim world when those Buddhas came crashing down.

Would it be more acceptable if these cartoons were sold at the Islamic Development Centre of Australia (today's oxymoron) bookshop at Auburn. Why not say that they are the drawings of some new religious sect? All sorts of aberrant behaviours can be hidden behind a religious facade.

What is that word that our leaders implore us to use when confronted by tough issues. Oh, that's right. The word is tolerance. It must only be used by the citizens of the host nation when dealing with the sensitivities of other groups. Those other groups don't have to use the word.

Wooow, Hang on here a minute.
Now this is interesting news, and not a surprise. It was not the pictures published, But the Pictures produced BY ?:
Sorry, you have to read the link. And don’t be surprised, I think you know the answer already.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/668

Irfan

Thank you for a well balanced article. Your leaders should be speaking out as you have.

Cheers
Kay

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/rnr/131313794.html

This website tells of the multiple atrocities done by Muslims all over and not one word has been said against them,but one cartoon of Allah who is dead is causing mayhem and trouble worldwide.

Muslims can go on tv and show them beheading Christians and other non muslims who are laughing ,dancing,and celebrating western deaths and torture,.

Is this the what the god of Islam (AllaH) wanted ?
Is this the love as Jesus Christ The Son of God told us to do to one another who is alive today and sits at the right hand of God The Father making intercession for all mankind..
Is God happy about the torture?

dobbadan, "This website tells of the multiple atrocities done by Muslims all over and not one word has been said against them,but one cartoon of Allah who is dead is causing mayhem and trouble worldwide."

Not sure if you had noticed the war on terror which seems to be essentially against the extremist form of Islam which is responsible for the previously mentioned attrocities. It's all pretty low key so maybe you had not noticed it, just a couple of countries invaded, tightened security, massive news coverage etc - easy to miss really. Rest assured that more than one word has been said against extremist muslims, perhaps you could read the article this thread hangs off. A few words being said against extremists muslims in the article.

On a less significant note there are apparently 12 cartoons in the series, my impression from what I have read is that only two of them are particularly offensive to most muslims. Maybe you meant 1 dozen cartoons rather than one cartoon.

The issue many are struggling with is how to confront the excesses of some muslims without unreasonably holding all muslims accountable for them. Clearly some want to hold all muslims responsible for the actions of a minority.

Irfan's article is a gem in confronting that issue, no moderate muslim need feel threatened by a fellow muslim challenging extremism within their faith. Our best hope of heading off ongoing escalation of the conflict between millitant Islam and the west is contained in Irfan's call for both sides to step back and put their own house in order before condeming the other. Clearly those who want an escallation in conflict will seek to undermine what Irfan is doing here or use this thread for yet another muslim bashing exercise. The rest will be saying "Thanks Irfan".

R0bert

It has to do with "Antagonism".

We should make it against the law to unfairly and unjustly antagonise. Common sense should be the determining factor.

We really have no laws or requirements that obliges us to be nice to each other. Given there is a culture clash happening and in reality humans do tend to lean towards aggression and violence, the result is what we are seeing today.

Oh and just with the story in the paper today about Students having a negative attitude towards Muslims. What is making that situation so much worse is that Muslims, like Asians, tend to speak in their native tongue when they get together. In schools the students group with their own and speak their own language.

Its really rude and disrespectful and it alienates the other students and it shouldn't be allowed.

In school everybody should speak English in the classroom and out. We need to encourage these kids to intergrate so that they can develop empathy and compassion for each other.

I think that Irfan has written a thoughtfull and balanced article.
Its so easy to always blame others, much harder to question ourselves, but that is part of wisdom, which so many lack.

The thing about religion is that we cannot expect others to respect what we believe, just our right to believe it. Respect has to be earned, it cannot be legislated for.

Religion has a problem, when it becomes political. Few people question or comment on religions which keep out of politics.
Both Islam and Catholics are highly political. Denying free
speech about either, would be back on the slippery slope into theocracy, which as we have seen, is a disaster for all except the clergy and those associated with them and their absolute power.

Ifran, I really enjoyed your article, apart from two lines:

"Like the other Prophets recognised by Islam (including the Messiah Jesus), Mohammed always preferred forgiveness over revenge."

"Instead of protecting the honour of their Prophet, some Muslims seem intent on destroying their own honour by behaving in a manner their Prophet had condemned 14 centuries ago."

Ifran, I'm sure you have read the Koran and the Hadith. How then can you say the above? Did everybody else skip over those lines?

Well I could berate Irfan for implying that I was one of those armchair Nazis.No,instead I congratulate Irfan in having the courage to stand up for what he believes in.
There are many who are critical of Irfan and don't realise that Irfan is risking a lot in being so out spoken.There should be many more who that not only want to allude to free speech,but actually practise it.

Alexander Downer was today was saying that the cartoons should not be published here because of the economic trade ramifications for our primary industries.Most of our media have decided not to publish.Is this the thin end of the wedge?If one religion becomes offended,which subsequently incurs censorship, be it voluntary or imposed,then that means that the Catholic Church could then ban books like Dan Brown's Davinci Code or movies like the Life of Brian.

These protests in Denmark and London are not about religion,but the lust for power of a minority group,using religion as a tool of supression against the majority.

If God/Allah is all powerful and knowing,nothing will insult him,only foolish men pretend to know the will of a Supreme Consciousness.He doesn't need feeble minded men to do his bidding.It just happens.

Unless more people like Irfan Usuf speak out,it will end in civil war and innocent people on both sides will suffer.

>>How far some of today’s Muslims are from the golden example of the man in whose name they are causing so much destruction.<<

Irfan Yusuf don’t fool your self and others with this false image of your prophet. For more information please go to:
http://www.faithfreedom.org/

I am from country where our Western tradition and heritage was stolen from us after WWII. For almost fifty years we have to fight communism for freedom and democracy. I know all the methods used by communist regime to suppress our most effective weapon– freedom of speech. They not succeeded and they lost. Now I know the real value of this basic right of freedom. It is disgusting to see the same methods used by muslim to suppress idea which they never understood because of their religious conviction.
We shouldn’t give in to this primitive mob and their terror. NO ONE HAS “RIGHT TO BE NOT OFFENDED”

Fight Vilification law in Victoria!!.

What we are seeing is Sharia by stealth.

The Australian dares not show the cartoons, and Ruddock makes appeasing comments.

Irfan

Yet another thoughtful and rational contribution. I have seen most of the cartoons, and only one of them was even good enough to cause me to crack a grin - the rest are simply poorly conceived and in some cases poorly drawn too. Clearly they have been seized upon by those looking for excuses for violence and secular political advantage, just as the then Pope used the (literally) mad Al-Hakim's act to trigger the Crusades.

I have no religious beliefs: to me they are all the same (invalid). But the freedom I have to be a non-believer is the same freedom others have to believe. I would not gratuitously offend someone's religious susceptibilities by eg, desecrating a mosque, church or synagogue. But nor will I accept someone trying to impose their religious standards on me or mine - example from a different context: Tony Abbott trying to impose his Catholic beliefs on the community by abusing his ministerial power over the RU-46 drug.

Irfan, you are a voice of reason and tolerance. We need more like you.

Ifran. I see the xenophobic right wing revolutionary wafflers, are at it again.My God it's not enough to be bombing the be-jesus out of them,moaning about the way they dress,their hygene habits,blaming them for just about every thing except the bubonic plague.(Although I can be sure someone on this forum will enlighten us)now we feel we have a free go to insult their deity.And of course now they are getting a little miffed about it,over the top in some cases I must confess.However, just a cursory glance over some of the postings here some would like to have them exterminated from the planet.

Now for mine,I find it some what strange that the offending cartoons came out of a Nordic country,of course apart from the time they sailed in their long ships to rape and pillage Europe. They are now traditionally regarded as a non agressive,progressive,forward thinking democracy.(and their attitude to sex beutifuuuulllll).And unless someone informs me to the contrary,they have a good relationship with their own Moslems and Islam in general.

Now I aint no conspiricy theorist,but what better place to release a little bit of propaganda,to get just the intended result.Because New York or London first off the rank so to speak just wouldn't have had the same re-action.It is well known the west is split on the war on terror,the way it is prosecuted,and the final outcome.What better way to get all the dissenters on board,for the showdown that is coming to a theatre near you very soon

PHILB,

I agree with your comments about the fact that this looks like it has been set-up. Like the dirt-poor young people from the US used as cannon fodder in the army for the oile barons people without power, the majority- in country's like Saudi, Kuwaut, Egypt ec. are easily whipped into anger; they have justifiable anger at the west to begin with. It would be no surprise should the oil barons in the US and the rulers in these countries, along with Israel, be orchestrating ferment behind the scenes. I suspect the world is just like a chess board for these "leaders"; countries are moved around and altered like pawns in their game....we need good, and brave,journalists follow what is happening. The Canadian journalist, Paul Roberts is good...but he does not get any publicity and I expectr many have not heard of him.

I have never been able to deduce if Irfan is the sort of liberal minded Muslim that his faith so desperately needs. Or, if he is a very clever promoter of traditional Islam who knows the power of Public Relations, and who knows which emotional buttons to push that will appeal to Islam’s most ardent defenders in the West. Personally, I think that it is the latter.

Irfan knows that he has a real problem this time. Because those who most support the Islamic colonization in their own Western countries regard “freedom of expression” as their most revered sacred cow. To people like Sneakypeter, Muslims can plant bombs in airliners, behead journalists, knock down tall buildings, blow up marketplaces, and gang rape Aussie girls all they please, but when they start attacking what he and his friends most hold dear, then Sneakypeter and co. must be feeling like Christian Scientists with appendicitis.

The trendy lefties are now in a real quandary. Traditionally, the artistic class has always been the opponent of any traditional values, and they can be relied upon to go into bat for any cause which attacks the society in which they live. Their support for Islamic colonization is just another way for them to get up the noses of their own society, a society which they despise.

But now the Muslim people that they have championed are biting their hands by attacking a principle which the trendies emphatically proclaim is sacrosanct. What we have now, ladies and gentleman, is a very serious ideological split between Islam and it’s western defenders.

It is interesting to speculate on what will happen next. This could, (as Irfan probably fears) begin the process of opposition to Islam by the West’s most noisy and politically committed minority. Such a process has already begun in European countries, where the fundamental differences between Islam and the sacred beliefs of Europe's own intellectual elite has become apparent.

Irfan’s best bet, is therefore to be attack his own Muslim faith’s violent defenders in backward Islamic societies, in order to placate Islam’s dimwitted allies in the west.

Look, Christ's Sermon on the Mount makes it clear who holds God's favour in the struggle between the Danes and the Jihadists:

'Blessed are the cheese-makers'..

“Historians agree”, Irf, that the Dark Ages were far from dark. The Middle Ages were a time when the Christian faith in reason and progress was providing the foundation upon which Western success would later be built.

‘How Christianity led to freedom, capitalism and success of the West’
http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=tqm4xd5mqkk5px43d968m19qmf4w3g5y

If this premise is false then the argument that ignorant Christian mounted an aggressive war against peaceful Muslims is false also.

‘How to think about the Crusades’
http://www.antipsykopat.org/miniBB/index.php?action=vthread&forum=3&topic=10287

Holy war is a religious duty in Islam, for other religions the purpose is only for defence.

“The Crusades took place against a background of Muslim conquest, of which the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem were deliberately triumphal symbols.”

What is explanatorily powerful is the fact that rich, landed knights gave up everything and risked their lives to fight in the Holy Land. It was the secular princes Irf refers to who were the Pope’s ‘difficulties’. It is these who were the cause of the tension between the two pillars - priest and king. Why did the Pope’s difficulties decide to be ‘manipulated’ and risk their lives? Faith is the answer not ignorance or top down manipulation. Just as the faith of Muslims explains these latest events.
Irfan seems to repeat Osama’s claim, that Muslim governments, apostates, are the cause of Muslim troubles and hence disaffection.

There are no Muslim 'rulers' in Europe. European Muslims are free and autonomous yet with no rulers they are being the most vocal. Scroll to the 4th Feb

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/categorie/46044

Pictures of educated, free, European Muslims, with access to information. Islamist intellectuals, are not ignorant, they are educated in western culture, history and ideas. The argument Irf uses is the real diversion.

The slight of hand insertion of the French ban on headscarves, as if this might be a justification for Muslim protest, avoids having to admit the ban was on the Crucifix or Jewish Star of David also.

The good behaviour of Muslims is in spite of the religion of their upbringing, it goes to their common sens

and big hearts rather than the truth of their religion.

Muslims are following Mohammed’s example well. Arguing that Muslims are behaving like uncivilized Europeans during the Crusades is an ugly clouding of the truth.
The Crusades were a justified response to persecution and invasion. And popular piety and faith was at its heart. Similarly Muslims now are being faithful doing as their prophet commands. The difference is in the objective goodness of the two expressions of faith.

There is no way one can argue Mohammed is morally beautiful. Anyone who reads the 5 most important books in Islam will never again believe Islam to be a religion of peace.

The only possible explanation for the distortions in his article is

1. Irfan is innocently ignorant of his own religion.

2. He is playing on the weaknesses of people in the West, with the comforting idea that ignorance is the cause, not religion. Diverting attention away from a critical examination of Islam.

“Islamists know exactly how to exploit post-imperial, post-Christian guilt--the West's Achilles' heel. . . they intend their war of terror to be seen by both sides as a justifiable response to Western aggression. In this they have not been disappointed, as we can witness all around us.”

Irfan has admitted he believes Sharia is a divine law. So I am beginning to doubt his intentions.

The only way Islam can exist in the modern world is through radical reform, it took Europe two blood soaked centuries to do this. We are asking Islam to do it in decades. What we are witnessing is only the beginning.

The tragedy of Irfan’s article is we need Muslims like him to face up to the issues in a spirit of courage and truth. We should encourage and support him toward this end.

Don’t take my word for it, defer to Con (Thermistocles) who was General Manager of SBS. It was his job to understand culture, he has done the work, done the research.

Martin Ibn Warriq,

'Crusades were justified'! Obviousley in your version doesn't tell they killed Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Arab christians as well.

They had big hearts and big swords.."Lord of the rings"...

But then again, the Gold fish looks up and sees its own reflection. Ignoramians look down and see smiling faces, monkey look up and see...

Q: I don't understand why a Muslim basher like you always pick an Arabic or Muslim name? Intellects don't use these low CTF like tactics

Martin: Your statement "The tragedy of Irfan’s article is we need Muslims like him to face up to the issues in a spirit of courage and truth. We should encourage and support him toward this end."

This just has to be deeply ironic, given your stance against anyone who doesn't share your version of christianity.

Given the persistence of your christian agenda I can only conclude that the above statement is disingenuous.

I too am puzzled by your choice of moniker - could you please enlighten us?

Thank you for a logical response to the dicrace that has unfolded as a result of a few cartoons. This barbaric display must not be tollerated by the people of the civilised world.

Whatever one might think of Irfan's motives on writing such an article is irrelevant. He is a voice of reason that Islam so desperately needs in this country, in this world. You only have to read Salam's article on the same topic to realize what we are dealing with here. Irfan is a minority voice in Islam and he shows incredible guts to stand up to the madness being demonstrated around the world to a couple of silly cartoons. Irfan has hit the nail on the head. Muslims need to address issues that have real meaning and implication for the good of the world, not these cartoons. Unfortunately, there has been so much brainwashing done by dark age immams, encouraged by corrupt governments, the road to sanity is wired with danger.

Islam is not going to go away, so people like Irfan need all the support they can get. Great article!

As it was perpetually highlighted in this forum, even my grammar points on possibilities to pick up significant mental differences between folks round a globe – and an "Australian way of thinking" surely.

Far away from sharing even a shadow of apologies for a war on terror and related issues, watching the cartoons hardly understands logic of Danish authors where hatred towards Islamists was clearly shifted to ridicule the gods they worship.

A reason of this message is no ignition of deliberating a topic on either faiths / atheism themselves or their place in a modern world, but expressing a difference clearly seen by too many round a globe between ridiculing particular nations, symbols and customs and the gods themselves, of which semantic differentiation is as in addition understood from this forum, out of reach for too many CIVILISED participants.

At the time “Pissed Chris” had initiated too much fuss, debates in the US Congress and street protests inclusively (Who paid for all this – and who definitely pays for recent pogroms on the Westerns embassies in a Muslim world?) – and was even more recently vandalised in TOLERANT Melbourne once again.

Life of Brian and South Park are easily avoided because we know their cast in advance whereas a newspaper cartoon is an instant shock. And how many Western newspapers have ever printed a cartoon lampooning Christ? Have their non-Western counterparts ever done so?

Martin Ibn Warriq

I notice that Hirsi Ali (in the reference provided by you) is calling for Muslims to wake up and realize that it was humans who wrote the holy scriptures. In the references I provided previously concerning the old documents found in the Mosque in Yemen, it is pretty clear that the Koran does indeed have a history.

It is also pretty clear we have a job ahead of us to persuade the Muslim community that it is in their best interest that they open up the Koran to legitamate criticism and analysis devoid of manipulation by a bevy of poorly educated and semi literate Imams,protecting their personal interests

How do you suggest we may encourage this to happen, because happen it must

5 people dead now over these bl--dy cartoons. REAL lotta tolerance.

Well I am annoyed. I submitted a comment to Andrew Wests blog in the Sydney Morning Herald this morning in relation to his article stating that the cartoons should be published and my comment does not appear to have been posted it went something like this:

"If we are not required to consider each others sensitivities and feelings then how are we ever going to live in Peace and Harmony

We should NOT publish the cartoons. They have already been published and anybody who wants to see them knows where to go - the internet will show you all. If we publish them it is only to aggravate, antagonise and harrass and thats bullying and we have got to be better than that!!

Otherwise we are going to be killing each other for ever. What sort of a future is that for our children?

Best interest of the child should always be of paramount concern. Please stop to think of the children, they deserve better than hostility, aggression and violence and they learn by example.

Enough is enough, things need to be turned around. For our children's sake.

ginger meg,

and what reaction would you expect from christians to a lampoon of christ or God?

Surely not threats and embassy burning?

All this reaction just demonstates the dangers to modern societies of mediaeval mindsets.

perhaps you can explain how you would react to a jesus cartoon?

Eg replace Mohhamed by jesus in the subject cartoons or picture jesus/god carrying bombs/torturing prisoners while assisting george bush in his war/crusade against terror? or something from your own imagination.

My guess is most Christians would simply dismiss it as nonsence and not give it a second thought.

Time will tell if the writer is truly a moderate in the sense westerners understand as its meaning. If one was a paranoid sceptic, one may wonder if our writer is a trojan horse - an educated follower of the tenents of the Islamic faith who uses manipulation of the media to conduct the jihad.
I like to think he is he is 'true blue'.

In response to Opinionated :
To clarify - Christians follow the New Testament teachings of Jesus Christ, not the teachings of the Old Testament which were followed by the Jews (and Jesus was a Jew). Christians may take up arms but this is not the commission given to them by Christ who told them they were to engage in 'spiritual battle' and may lose their life if they follow his teachings.
The followers of the Islamic faith follow the Koran and Hadith. Mohammed taught that Jihad is expected of his followers and we know what this means.
How can you possibly compare Christ with Mohammed?

The diversity of "religion" has created a divide amongst people over the centuries. It is about time we believed in each other, than the unknown.

THE CLASH OF CIVILIZATIONS HAS COME - I DON"T LIKE IslamoFacistS!!

The cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten raise the most important question of our times: freedom of expression. Are we in the west going to cave into pressure from societies with a medieval mindset, or are we going to defend our most precious freedom — freedom of expression, a freedom for which thousands of people sacrificed their lives?

A democracy cannot survive long without freedom of expression, the freedom to argue, to dissent, even to insult and offend. It is a freedom sorely lacking in the Islamic world, and without it Islam will remain unassailed in its dogmatic, fanatical, medieval fortress; ossified, totalitarian and intolerant. Without this fundamental freedom, Islam will continue to stifle thought, human rights, individuality; originality and truth.

Unless, we show some solidarity, unashamed, noisy, public solidarity with the Danish cartoonists, then the forces that are trying to impose on the Free West a totalitarian ideology will have won; the Islamization of Europe will have begun in earnest. Do not apologize.

All this terror and hate over 12 cartoons is horrific to say the least.
Islam doesn't compare any where near true Christianity,which teaches love,forgiveness (70x7)daily , no revenge, so Allah can't be the same god as the Christian God, as (He) God Almighty never asks for or teaches revenge,while Islam does , and also allows lies if in defence of Allah.

Australian's CAN'T HAVE A BALANCED ,HOLY, LOVING LIFE, IF WE ALLOW WORSHIP OF MANY GODS AND MANY BELIEFS . WHAT A MESS. Why not do away with every law,creed,belief,prayers ,idols,culture and religion for peace sake?

It has become a fear filled world , due to Muslim reprisals and hate going as far as beheading anyone they hate ,blowing them to pieces, men ,women,and children,even their own people to get revenge.

Now,freedom of press,and jounalism is the next to go if they can put fear into all the world .

I just viewed the cartoons of Mohammed on a search engine and they are tame compared to what muslims and anti- christian people show of Jesus and Moses and Buddha.

Actually this search engine shows dozens on cartoons of mohammed right back to a thousand years or so right up 'til today,so why is there trouble over them now?

Is is fuelled by the elite and intellectual wealthy Muslims, using the illiterate Muslims as gun fodder,to do their dirty work? Wake up world.
Jesus one commandment was to"LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I LOVE YOU" before he went to Heaven to wait to return for all of His followers .
Let us Christians do that.

This whole horrifying change is spiritual,with no apologies from Muslim leaders or any others.Why?

Jesus whom Musilms accept as a Prophet of God say a Prophet cannot lie,then why not accept Jesus words when He said, " I am the way ,the truth and the life ,no man can come to God except thru Me".? He also said that He is the Son of God.

Stalin asked Kaganovich: "Why do you look so gloomy when we laugh at jokes about the Jews, whereas Mikoyan doubles up with mirth when he hears jokes about Armenians?" Kaganovich said that he replied: "You are well aware of national feelings, Comrade Stalin. The Jews have been thrashed so may times that they have become like a sensitive plant, they clench themselves when they are touched." Stalin said: "What a good comparison!" It might well be that today's Muslims are yesterday's Jews! (See my forthcoming book, "Dictatorial CEOs and their lieutenants: the cases of Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Ataturk and Mao.") And click onto: http://www.jeffschubert.com

Good response. Mature, interesting, well balanced and seeing your reaction on Cronulla no hypocrisy, which is so refeshing.

Those that jumped up and down at one should jump up and down at the other. Those that jump up and down at one and not the other? I will ignore the other thread on this.

I don't see see the reason to publish these just for a reaction but then those who do react violently seem to be doing so for more reasons than suggested, a trait of Cronulla.

However the peaceful protestors at each event had every right and we should respect that.

Thanks though Irfan, good essay to think about.

Religion is nothing but politcal persuasion by force and by law ,supersticion,and stealth,urged on by men who have been put in dictatorial positions called "Religious Imams", who manipulate the underdogs and illiterate masses in Muslim nations.
All to control and run things their twisted ways,at the expense of justice,care and hope .

Christianity is NOT a religion it is a lifestyle of obedience not law, as followers of Christ,which is a love walk .

So to those who say they hate religion because it causes wars STOP it, it does as it is man made.

You can be religious about anything including following blindly evil men who think nothing of taking lives whether it is Muslims ,infidels as they call the West or anyone getting in their perverted way.

I was told that the word "love",is not mentioned in the Koran .

Is this true? If not then please quote me some Sura with that word in it anyone knowing the Koran scripts.

Sunisle.Yes I do believe the cartoon fiasco is a set up.I also believe the agent provocateurs for this are more likely to be found in Washington D.C. or London than Denmark.My main concern is not so much the re-action of the Moslem world to this, but our own populace.They have in many cases fallen for this pile of horse s@&t,hook line and sinker.What truly amazes me is the referance to history thousands of years ago,with a fair smattering of qoutes from the bible.To equate this in a modern context of what is happening as I tap this burst out is sheer and utter bunkum.I don't know what lofty circles you move in?but all of my friends and acquaintances would think the Balfour agreement was some type of pie.I can only assume most Moslems are the same and more interested in making a living fishing, and other such pastimes.I belive most people that post on this forum as myself take an interest,that most people I know anyway would view as a total waste of time.

The waxing lyrical about freedom of speech is laughable,Ask the holocaust deniers David Irvine and Ernst Zundel about free speech they have both been in the pokey,for their opinions.Who incidently I believe are both barking mad.Yes we have free speech to be sure,but there are consequences for your opinions.Half the stuff that ends up on this forum could in some quarters be classed as liable I am guilty of it myself.Australia is probably the last bastion on the planet, where you can be sued for telling the truth.

Of course the best part of all of this,is the fact some posters believe westerners don't carry out acts of violence in the name of religion or other political discourse very selective I must say.They should try living in N/Ireland.The nationalist movement is still alive and well in Wales every now and then they blow up a power pylon or something.AAAAAhhhhhhhhhhh save me from this sh@t.

Oh by the way,I have read Paul Roberts a great journo(see counter punch u.s.)

Congratulations on an excellent article Irfan. I believe the western world will have more respect for Islam when it is seen to be practised true to the Koran.

Tamstar, you gotta be kidding? Islam is practiced a lot closer to the Koran under Sharia law than it is in the West, and most Westerners have very little respect for that (the death penalty for adultery? Alch and co, before you start, Christ didn't advocate that).

Dobbadan, Muslims believe the Jewish and Christian Scriptures as we read them were tainted, and wherever they disagree with Mohammad's musings, they're wrong. (Similar to the Mormons, people at the Jesus Seminar, ultra liberal Christians, etc. You just pick and choose what you like).

I think the true argument in Europe right now is: MAY those cartoons be published? Should they be? Probably not. May they be? Yes. Publishing them was merely making that point.

The Western tradition includes, as an overaching value, the idea that nothing is above criticism, investigation, sceptical evaluation and, if it seems appropriate, humour and ridicule. This is another way of saying ‘nothing is sacred’ in the intellectual tradition of questioning, examining and expressing an opinion (so-called ‘freedom of expression’). It may be that Muslim intellectuals and those who have greater education can understand and appreciate this, perhaps even practice it. But others, lacking any knowledge or appreciation of that tradition, perceive it differently. This applies in the case of Islam, Christianity, Judaism and other religions --- in fact, in any system of faith rather than a system of rational intellectual enquiry. This leaves it open, of course, as to whether one should ridicule someone else’s faith, either because such ridicule is ‘not in good taste’ or because it is dangerous to one’s health and wellbeing.

YngNlvnIt – Agree completely: The Jesus Seminar grrrrr lol talk about balloon heads.

Angry Martin:

Scout what would genuinely be enlightening is your understanding of my ‘version’ of Christianity. It would be instructive for both Christians and non-Christians in here.

It would reveal

1. Your level of understanding of Christianity
2. Your understanding of religion in general
3. Your grasp of the history of Western Civilisation

If by some miracle you accurately discern any version of Christianity the Angels in Heaven will sing with delight at the finding of a lost soul &#61514; lol

As for my agenda, I have been in your market place for many weeks now. I have expressed my beliefs fully and openly. I haven’t hidden anything. What is interesting isn’t my love of Christ but your unacknowledged agenda. Do you think you approach any subject from a neutral position?

Please contain that self deception – fast. I’m already tempted to denounce your posts as a disgrace.

My beliefs are either right or wrong. You haven’t yet attempted to argue on that level.

My hope is that you soon come up with some good arguments. Enlighten us Scout.

Forgiving Martin:

Scout I sense that you know deep down you have prejudices and are carefully testing the waters about this belief in Christ. You don’t want to be taken for a fool, and you have an automatic scepticism of the supernatural. Can’t blame you for that, it’s a characteristic of the age. And I was an atheist not long ago also.

I’d encourage you to ask specific questions about faith, don’t be afraid. Belief in God is much more rational than the alternatives. So you can expect common sense answers to your questions. If God exists we’d expect Him to want to be understood (as much as it was safe for us).

By far the best of Irfan's articles, although some of his points & examples reveal what he really thinks.

The bit about how if you just turned on the tv (seeing the rioters) you would be forgiven for thinking that Denmark just invaded Iran, or, he said......"Denmark just banned the veil in schools".

Your nearly there Irfan, just dump the spite. It's unhealthy.

Banning the veil in public school is neccessary, as western nations are secular. It never ceases to amaze me how hypocritical Muslims are, as they complain about easter hat parades in primary school, chocolate egg hunts (how either of these things could offend Muslims is mad, but then again, the entire Islamic world is protesting over some mild cartoons) yet want to display their religiousity for all to see, for women to see how impure they are for not wearing one.

As for your comments about the prophet Irfan, I don't believe that you aren't aware of his character. I won't 'offend' you by telling you about him, of what I've read from Islamic sources, but he was nothing like Christ. Nothing. Although I'm not Christian, I believe Christ's example was that of purity, what we should be.

Honestly Irfan, if you aren't using 'taqiyya' on us about how you somehow bizarrely think that Mohammed is a good example, go read more so you can leave Islam like Ibn Warraq ("Why I'm Not A Muslim" - excellent book).

Muslims rioting over a cartoon ? Nonsense. Why are they burning any flag other than Denmarks? Why is Iran blaming the Jews?

Why is that Muslims always tell us not to judge all of them because of a 'handful' of fanatics, even though their Australian Muslim leaders constantly make statements supporting terrorism and the Muslim community never protest for these bigots to step down.

Why not? Why not? No, really, why not?

Moreover, Muslims think themselves so superior they think they should be above criticism. This is why we are having so much conflict with the Lebanese gangs, and, as one of the youth leaders, Fadi Rahman put it during the Cronulla fightback, "they (the Lebanese youth) feel that they are superior to non-Muslims, and hate the west".

Don't judge all of us as terrorists, even though we never condemn it, but you draw a cartoon and we will condemn the whole west. How many Muslims are protesting? A million? I'd say it would have to be a fair cross-section of Muslims.

Irfan, you have a lot of work to do if you're community is to prosper. I think it's getting so bad that western nations will be forced to go against our own nature and vote in extremist right wing partys to deal with the threat.....

Benjamin

Thank you for your posts. Very thoughtful.

Cheers
Kay

Irfan,
Have not always agreed with what you have said of late, but this time you are absolutely right. The published cartoons was the wrong thing in the first place, knowing they would draw anger, but the response is way out of proportion.

This episode will set integration back years, in what was already a slow process. Like Bengeman said, you have a hell of a lot of work to do. If you and other Aussie Mossies can get more into positions of influence in your communities, I am sure it would help heaps. I look forward to that. Good luck

"I’d encourage you to ask specific questions about faith, don’t be afraid. Belief in God is much more rational than the alternatives. So you can expect common sense answers to your questions"

So if somebody went into the hot desert sun and had "revelations",
how do we know that they were a prophet and not simply suffering
from schizophrenia, which affects about 1% of the population...?

Here we go

This is the 'about us' page of the Minaret College in Melbourne

http://www.minaret.vic.edu.au/about_us/about_us.htm

It says

Values

'We abide by the Islamic values that are derived from Qur&#8217;an and the teachings of our prophet Mohammed (S.A.W).'

Hooraaayyy!

This same college is currently holding taqiyya, sorry islamic leadership courses.

http://www.minaret.vic.edu.au/news/launching_tertiary.htm

Wonderful.

Martin

I apologise if your positive response to Irfan’s wonderful article was indeed sincere. Given your strident agenda, as with a few other Christian posters (by no means all), I have come to assume that it would be consistently anti-Muslim. For example, Coach & Friedrich paint all Muslims as vicious and evil. If you are able to differentiate between the majority of moderate and reasonable Muslims and the minority of appalling extremists, I congratulate you.

Qui Pro Quo, Martin

I politely enquired as to the meaning of your moniker and I received a demand (and it was a demand – “Angry Martin”) for my Curriculum Vitae. I am not under any obligation to provide such.

And as for “forgiving Martin”

1. I don’t give a toss whether you are angry or forgiving of me – you are an anonymous and frequently defensive poster to this forum, that’s all. You may be a pleasant and tolerant person in the real world, I can only respond to the tenor of your posts.

2. Everybody has prejudices; mine is religious dogma from any religion (in case you hadn’t already determined that).

3. Who is this “us” I am demanded to enlighten? You do not speak for all posters.

Finally, if Irfan has moved your heart a little, then I rejoice.

Cheers

What a shame.

If you bothered to understand Christianity you might understand why the quote you excised was perfectly consonant with it.

All prejudice should be condemned. You seem to take pride in yours. How am I to take your criticisms of religion and Christ if you won't even bother to understand Him.

You clearly don't want to be taken seriously, posting in here perhaps for you is a way to wile away the time.

No argument just "religion is all nonsense". That won't do anymore Scout. The jig is up.

Martin - Scout has every right to attack religious dogma which is becoming very dangerous to us all. I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that there is some sort of conspiracy or common goal among both fundamentalist Christians and Muslims to fast forward the end of the world so that the non-believers can be wiped out of existence. Unfortunately what they do not realise is that we will all be wiped out together as even if there is a God (I am agnostic about this) he/she will want absolutely nothing to do with these idiots.

On a paper, any religion tolerates other while assuming that HER god is a true and one only Lord, which is both core and basic notion of any faith and belief. Therefore, tolerance on terms of not-killing-on-spot non-believers (those different to a particular tribe) is still a goal to wish in too many places round a globe.

In so-called civilised and democratic societies a question remains where is sedge of a freedom of speech defamation and simple lying start at.

Thanks Sajo

I tried to communicate with Martin, I really did. However his, unadmitted, prejudices prevents him from any form of discussion. Apparently it is on his terms or no terms at all. This is indeed dogma.

Looks as though there is no room for dissent either from the fundie Muslims or Christians.

If there is a diety it is not a christian or muslim one to judge by this thread and muslim outrage over some cartoons.

Diety help us all.

I Just received from Ex Airforce officer in America
it important to share

Islam's soon war with the West?

"Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36).

This message is submitted in the spirit of being "always on the watch." Come Lord Jesus.

Jim
_______________________________________

"I've been warning for years and now the time is here. Islam wants world domination and the Muslims believe NOW is the time. Iran and Hamas will lead the world into WW 3. This will be a united attack against Israel and the USA. Iranian terrorist agents will be unleashed against the USA. They will try to destroy the economy. Islam WANTS this war. There is no stopping it. The Lord God of Israel is about to crack open Islam like an egg; unfortunately, multitudes are going to die. He is about to judge the sinful West with Islam. It is going to be a two-edged judgment. Islam will be used against the corrupt West and the West will smash Islam. There is very little time left until the war starts. Right now, Hamas is weak and needs sometime to organize and get weapons from Iran. Maybe just a few months. I would say look for April or May for the real fighting to start. Probably around Passover. If it doesn't start then, it is because the Muslims need more time for weapons. The war will come and it will be very soon. This war will turn the world upside down. Be strong in the loins of your mind. Keep focused on the word and the second coming of the Lord Jesus. This war will not overtake us by surprise. God is telegraphing what He is about to do. Be strong in the Lord and ready to preach and win souls to the Savior."

Luke 21:28: And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Hey Dobbadan,

When June rolls around and the final apocalyptic war between Islam and the West hasn't happened, i will expect to see you on OLO apologising profusely for being so gullible.

And in the incredibly unlikely event that it does, I promise to do the same.

Dobbadan - please put the Playstation away. I am glad that your friend is an 'ex'- US airforce officer. I hope that there are not too many like him still serving.

I think the time for hoping that if we ignore the religious bullies in the world then they will just fight among themselves and leave the rest of us alone is probably finished. In the past I have paid little attention to their ridiculous claims. However it seems that we will all need to work together if there is any hope of sorting out this mess we are in. I am not sure whether showing our strength of free speech and democracy by publishing cartoons (trying to keep to the point here) is going to be more effective than showing our respect and courtesy to our fellow human beings by not publishing them. Respect is probably the better option but it needs to be reciprocated.

Martin, perhaps if you understood the difference between recognising and admitting to the prejudices we each have vs thinking our own prejudices are not prejudices but rather divine insight you might understand what Scout is saying a bit better.

As someone who has both agreed with and disagreed with Scout on a variety of issues over a sustained period of time I have found her quite remarkable in her ability to recognise the role her own prejudices/biases play in her thinking and to attempt to gain understanding beyond those prejudices/biases. She has a courage and integrity in her attempts to understand other viewpoints that you could possibly learn a lot from if you wish to be taken seriously by those who don't already agree with you.

R0bert

Re Dobbadan's post.. yes, it does sound like a bit too much 'playstation'... which is exactly what those around 'Ol Noah' must have been saying as he built a huge 'Ark' on dry land.. "C'monnnn Noah dude.. a bit too much grape juice there eh .... hmm"

Nevertheless, whether Dobba is correct or not, it is a biblical principle of absolute certainty that God does use 'evil' nations to judge His own people.

"Fear Oh Sydney, Tremble oh Melbourne....your glorification of evil has reached my eyes..and shall I hold back ? "......prophetic, or peurile ?

Habakkuk 1

5 "Look at the nations and watch—
and be utterly amazed.
For I am going to do something in your days
that you would not believe,
even if you were told.
6 I am raising up the Babylonians, [a]
that ruthless and impetuous people,
who sweep across the whole earth
to seize dwelling places not their own.

This shocked the prophet.. and he said:

13 Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
you cannot tolerate wrong.
Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
Why are you silent while the wicked
swallow up those more righteous than themselves?

The LORD's Answer

2 Then the LORD replied:
"Write down the revelation
and make it plain on tablets
so that a herald [b] may run with it.
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it [c] will certainly come and will not delay.

Food for thought.

Irfanwrote: "I am not aware of any biographical record of the Prophet [sic] taking
any revenge for attacks on his person." Relevance?? Given this:

The only person who attempted to write down all of the Qur'anic revelations
while Muhammad was still alive was killed by order of Muhammad. According to the
Hadith, Abdallah bin Sa'd became concerned that some of the phraseology didn't
sound godly, so he suggested enhancements. When Muhammad accepted his edits,
Abdallah rejected Islam. He recognized that the Qur'an couldn't be from god if
he, a scribe, could copyedit it. TabariV888:178"When the Messenger entered Mecca
he ordered that the following men should be killed... first among them was
Abdallah bin Sa'd." Abdallah bin Sa'd knew too much.

Muhammad ordered his followers to assassinate anyone who criticized him. The
first was a poet named Ashraf. This Hadith is from Bukhari's Collection, Volume
4Book 52Number 270:Bukhari:V4B52N270 "Allah's Messenger said, 'Who is ready to
kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.' Maslama
got up saying, 'Would you like me to kill him?' The Prophet proclaimed'Yes.'

TabariVII97"The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, 'Kill
any Jew who falls under your power.'"

Ishaq308 "Halfway to Medina, Ocba was called out to be executed." Ocba asked
Muhammad why he was being treated more harshly than the other captives. "The
Prophet said, 'Because of your enmity to Allah and to his Prophet.' 'And my
little girl,' cried Ocba in bitterness, 'who will take care of her?' 'Hell
Fire,' Muhammad responded. At that moment he was decapitated.

Poet Asma bint Marwan spoke critically of Muhammad, Ishaq676 "'You obey a
stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no
honor among you?' Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, 'Will no one rid me of
this woman?' Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet's wishes.
That night he crept into the writer's home while she lay sleeping surrounded by
her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe
and then plunged his sword into the poet

R0bert

I think that the previous two posts have been an attempt to 'bury’ your very kind words as they do not relate to the discussion and are ridiculously lengthy.

Therefore, I repeat your post here:

<<Martin, perhaps if you understood the difference between
recognising and admitting to the prejudices we each have vs
thinking our own prejudices are not prejudices but rather divine
insight you might understand what Scout is saying a bit better.

As someone who has both agreed with and disagreed with Scout
on a variety of issues over a sustained period of time I have
found her quite remarkable in her ability to recognise the
role her own prejudices/biases play in her thinking and
to attempt to gain understanding beyond those prejudices/biases.

She has a courage and integrity in her attempts to understand
other viewpoints that you could possibly learn a lot from
if you wish to be taken seriously by those who don't already agree with you.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 9 February 2006 12:47:30 PM>>

I must admit that I reread the post at least four times. I don’t feel I deserve such high praise, however, they were very welcome and cheered me immensely.

R0bert, your humane values are consistent throughout OLO and you are never scathing of others – always polite. I believe in setting an example and this you do in exemplary fashion.

It is very easy allow oneself to be goaded by the malicious intent of those who claim to be Christian and I confess to having given in to their vitriol on another thread.

Consider yourself hugged.

Much warmth and love

Dianne

Irfan spoke as if he was in a quandary. His seemingly balanced views strick an accord with many. Gaining sympathetic response from most. But there are significant problems... some brought out by a few insightful readers, including YngNLuvnIt.

I don't want to paint Irfan as anything but a sincere fella. But nevertheless the effect of his article is no less deceptive:

(1) His statement "My message to Muslim mobs... " is unintentionally deceptive.

Trust me in saying- NOT ONE Muslim mob will read his writing, let alone fanatics and extemists. Hence his writing only impresses you people whilst giving Irfan a feel-good factor (which he deserves anyway).

(2) His article conveys a subtle but unintended deception - that Mohammed is the honorable prophet of the 'true' god. Subtly that honour is restored in the eyes of the west when all the bad Muslims behaviour stop.
Irfan's quandary arising from a faith in a non-god, a non-prophet. A falsehood always leads to a parodox and contradiction in some ways, some time.

(3) Irfan expanded on poverty of Muslims. Again that is misleading (unintended of course).
In Islamic ideology, material wealth is never an issue. Poverty brings someone closer to Allah. Perhaps the only problem- money is needed to fly to Mecca for a haj. If a Muslim can die for Allah, material well-bring cannot be an issue.
Irfan's perspective is that of a well-to-do Muslim in the west which actually cannot be appreciated in many Islamic places.

In a nutshell, a fairly good article (within reason) but one which DOES NOT make a real difference AT ALL.

Scout, thanks. Sometimes not as scathing as I would like to be and at the same time more scathing than I want to be :).

The praise is deserved, you have taught me much with your generally rational discussion of your views - a "lefty" who I feel compelled to pay attention to.

I'm finding myself bothered by the intensity that goes into putting some quite complex and thoughtful posters into boxes. Col got given a label the other day which I found really amusing, Matthew S called him a "new-age moderate" not really a description which came to mind for me but apparently one that suited Matthews need to tag Cols approach. Likewise GZ Tans recent comments about FH and some of the attempts to label as racist attempts by some to express their concerns about the behaviour of some sections of the middle eastern/muslim community. So much easier if we can listen to what people are saying and try to understand. One of the great things for me about this site is that it is giving me much more detailed insights into the worldview of people who don't always see things the way I do.

There are some really good people who are part of this community who I have come to value even if I disagree with some of their views. Even BD gets close to being on the list sometimes, maybe because some of his co-believers who have joined us recently make him look like a model of tolerance and understanding :).

Have a nice weekend.

R0bert

R0bert

To continue our little 'love-in'.

I freely admit to simply skimming the posts of Coach, Martin, Kactaz, BD, GZ Tan and others - simply because they are frequently patronising, derisive and with all the religious quotes; bloody boring.

That said, R0bert, while you might call yourself right-wing, I would beg to differ, your approach is well-considered and humanist. I always read all of your posts.

And that is the problem with labels, I suppose I could be labeled as a 'lefty' but I believe in a kind of democratic socially based capitalist society. I guess I want the best elements of all. Yet for many it is an all or nothing approach which I find very limiting.

I must admit too, that BD is looking good simply by comparison these days, however that is hardly a compliment. He and his brethren complain about moderate Muslims not taking a strong enough stand against their extremist factions, yet BD continually excuses the rude and vitriolic excesses of his cronies.

Have you noticed how often, when someone is accused of particular behaviour, the accused will not only deny it but claim the accuser is the one who is guilty? My ex used to do that all the time. I guess that is why I am so sensitive to hypocrisy.

And hypocrisy is not something I sense from Irfan or Fellow Human, it is something I sense from Salam and it arrives in bucket loads from the extreme christians.

You have a wonderful weekend, R0bert

Dianne

I have just received many anti Christian anti Jew cartoons from a palestinian new paper from past ,one with Jesus and a spear thru Him wih an American flag and a Jewish flag etc . It is horrific and usChrsitians don't go crazt yover cartoons,




Palestinian Cartoons
By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook


On crucifix: Palestine
[Al-Intifada (Al-Hayat Al-Jadida
supplement, December 11, 2000]

The world is witnessing violent Muslim reactions to caricatures of Muhammad published in a Danish paper.

In the Palestinian Authority, Palestinian gunmen threatened European Union officials, the Palestine Religious Scholars Association has called for a boycott of Danish products and, in the most recent development, the Temporary International Presence in Hebron has been forced out of its premises by Palestinian violence.

Palestinian Media Watch has documented numerous cartoons from Palestinian Authority newspapers featuring extreme anti-Semitism. We are redistributing a selection of them below.

In response to numerous queries, Palestinian Media Watch would like to stress that there are no Arab caricatures insulting the Hebrew prophets or Jesus. This is for a simple reason - Islam presents the Hebrew prophets and Jesus as Muslims who prophesied Islam. They teach that both Moses and Jesus received Islam from Allah and that Jews and Christians later distorted these teachings. As such, Judaism and Christianity are said to be perversions of Allah's only true word - Islam. Thus Moses, Abraham, all the prophets of the Hebrew Bible and Jesus are respected Muslims and are not ridiculed. However Jewish and Christian symbols are frequently used, such as in the portrayal of Jews crucifying "Palestine" in the picture above

Martin Ibn Warriq,

I used to believe Boaz is misleading until I read your posting.

The source of your story, Tabari is a collector of material mainly from Jewish tribes like Banu Kurayza who were at war with Muslims.
They are the very same 'honest' source behind the enfancy bible and other similar banned books by the church (which portrayed Jesus as killed a child and tortured animals in his youth). They also accused Virgin Mary of adultery.

To quote them as 'credible', means your very own religion is a fantasy.

Fellow_Human,

Refuse to accept your 'holy' 'prophet' was a vengeful killer, no matter what, huh?

Must you threaten exposing Jesus as having killed a child in order to cover up Muhammed's evil deeds? Like hinting - if you don't expose my Muhammed then I won't expose your Jesus.

Come on, make my day. We already know a lot about Muhammed's evil doings. Now tell us all about the bad side of Jesus.

Nay, you won't... because you will not hurt YOUR Jesus, another prophet (of mere convenience). I read your mind.

But inside your heart affixed a portrait of a tainted Jesus that you hold dear because it is 'proof' that Christionaity is a fantasy.

Therefore whether someone further exposes Muhammed's misdeed really shouldn't make any difference to you.

Pretending that you can hush Martin with a Jesus threat (and yet revealing it at the same time) is hypocritical.

Martin:
During the Islamic revolution in Iran, Mr. Zarin Koub was left alone, to continue his professorship at the university in Tehran. That is a good indication of the respect he held as an Islamic scholar. Because many, many other intellectuals and literati in Iran at that time were promptly executed. Any of the mullahs now in power in Iran, if they have a college degree, had to have taken some classes from Mr. Zarin Koub.

Do you know of this man?
He is the guide line for Intelligent minds to follow, void of Post modern thourghtless-ness.
Awful expencive History Publications from Cambridge press though. The Answer is there.

GZ Tan as you suggested on another thread I should judge you by the strength of your analysis I'll give it a go based on your last post.

Fellow Human did not appear to be hinting at a belief that Jesus is a baby killer rather suggesting that the sources that Martin was using are very disreputable. No threats or hidden dirty "Jesus" just pointing out a problem with using that kind of material. If that is the best you can do the question of analysis is answered.

On the matter of judging based on niceness - I don't think so, rather the character displayed through peoples posts. Things like apparent honesty, fairness and a willingness to seek out a better understanding are the traits I value. I don't tend to admire those who's trademark is unprovoked nastieness so I guess that comes into it a bit/

One poster whom I have a lot of respect for is Col who is quite frankly (no offense Col) often quite brutal. I think that he tries to reserve it for those who want to play that way and if treated with a moderate level of courtesy will respond in kind. I respect Col because he is consistant in his posts with his claims about what he believes and is willing to look at the other side of arguments.

Likewise the beautiful and especially sweet Scout (thanks for the hug) has not always spoken sweetly about me. We've had our rough spots. Not always nice but willing to try to understand opposing viewpoints and willing to deal fairly.

Your spiritual war is a fantasy that you are others are trying to bring into the real world and cause real harm to real people with it, likewise with the extremist muslims. Time for all of you to "put away childish things", believe what you like but if it becomes about hurting others then a line is crossed.

R0bert

RObert,
Appreciate your feedback.

An accurate analysis will require knowledge on the nature of Islam.

Actually my attacks are on Islam. Whether it's FH or XYZ is irrelevant.

There can be NO doubt Islam is GUILTY as charged today.

It's an insideous force that warrants a collectiveness in the verdict - Muslims are guilty/suspects by association.

Unprovoked nastiness? Well, in the dock today are Muslims trying to overturn the 'guilty verdict' whereas many are arguing the prosecutor's case. Spiritual war is REAL.

Judging by FH's numerous posts, he's not innocent by any stretch because he purposefully projects a sugar-coated face of Islam whilst providing the mildest of rebuke to extremism as a token of gesture.

I respect 'Muslims' who recognise evil deeds of Muhammed and are getting death threats for demanding reformation of Islam. Not that I want their lives to be threatened, but that's unfortunately quite inevitable. Irfan's not one of them. Definitely not FH. There are so many Muslims todays, a mere handful of reformists is gross indictment of Islam.

Unlike others, Islam's uniquely deceptive and can be difficult to challenge. Learning about Islam from within is fraud with danger, as it's full of details and double-speaks which can easily be churned into sugar-coated teachings. Today there's much incentives for Muslims to 'sell' a positive image of the religion. Hence when visiting Islamic web/blog sites, it can actually be quite difficult to not agree they talk a lot of sense. To avoid been deceived, one has to have a big picture first. Not looking to FH and think a Muslim is like everyone else.

Muslims view on Jesus is matter of expediency. Despite what Muslims tell you, Jesus's actually just a 'prophet of convenience', best used to counter-attack Christians. Otherwise he's just a pain in the neck and won't make the slightest difference to Islam. Of course, FH won't admit to whether he believes Jesus is a baby killer. But to Muslims, information that justifies lowering the status of Jesus is gleefully accepted. Afterall they're intend on regarding Muhammed more highly than Jesus. These is much hypocrisy there.

Cartoons insult Muslims

Dear friends

I join all those who deplore the disproportionate response to the cartoons by a large number of Muslims in various countries. But what also concerns me is that Islam phobia and the ‘Kristallnacht in slow motion’ that the Howard government are deliberately engaged in will take heart from this violence overseas.

Muslims have handed an ace card to the sort of racially intolerant people we saw wrapped in the Australian flag at Cronulla. Fortunately most in Australia saw violence as an inappropriate response.

Everything happens in the context of other events. The illegal invasion and military occupation of Muslim countries like Afghanistan and Iraq and the threats against Iran, Syria, Libya, and Sudan are real not imagined insults against Muslims.

The torture of prisoners has included dog attacks and sexual humiliation. Mamdouh Habib had menstrual blood smeared on his face and the Howard government approved of such treatment. No charges were ever laid against him, nor have the people who carried out these outrages been punished.

The complete impunity with which Israel kills unarmed Palestinian civilians and keeps whole populations in the most humiliating internment is a major insult to other Muslims. Israel’s illegal and undeclared possession of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons makes that country a major WMD threat to the entire region of the Middle East. The US continues to bankroll with military and other aid a Zionist Jewish state (not secular or democratic as we are misled to believe).

The global power differential is very much to the detriment of Arab and Muslim peoples and there are many who feel a genuine grievance against the USA, Britain and others for foisting West-compliant dictators and so-called ‘royal’ families on them so the West could get the cheap oil that they need to run their economies.

There used to be a nice civilised and moderate enclave of countries in Scandinavia that were a beacon for us all, as aspirants for human rights. Unfortunately today’s politicians can make a name for themselves by resorting to what we charmingly call “dog-whistle politics”.

Willy Bach

GZ Tan - "It's an insideous force that warrants a collectiveness in the verdict - Muslims are guilty/suspects by association.". At least now you have put out in the open with that comment and others the drivers for you anti-muslim agenda. Correct me if I'm wrong here

You believe
- that you have special insight into Islam
- that all muslims are guilty and that the verdict of guilty stands regardless of their words or actions.
- the only exception to the above are muslims who hold similar views to yourself regarding Muhammed and who express those views forcefully.
- any muslim who appears to embrace peace, tolerance for other beliefs etc is just a very clever actor. The very act of seeming to to be a nice normal sort of guy just proves how guilty they are.
- that there is a spiritual war which you intend to act out on this earth (beyond praying about it).

It really seems to be a position where you refuse to allow your opinions to be influenced by actual events in the real world or any logical debate. A position that you believe justifies your attacks on muslims who have given no outward sign of being any kind of threat to the rest of us and who may in fact be part of our best chance of winding in the growth of militancy.

Somewhat past the point where the exercise of religious freedom is a harmless delusion and getting into the grounds where it becomes a threat to the rest of humanity. One of the scary parts of this is that non of the other christians on this site have thought to challenge your views so far - guilt by silence and association maybe?

GZ if your God is all powerfull let him fight his war, what you are doing at the moment is provoking conflict. Net impact is furthering my belief that a significant proportion of the blame for the conflict between some muslims and the west is provocation by people who hold views such as yours.

R0ber

RObert,

The reason no other christian is challenging GZ Tan is because he doesn't say anything that needs to be challenged. Stating truths and facts rarely need to be challenged except by the ignorant who think otherwise.

If some muslims are 'moderate’; it's either a deliberately hypocritical or unwittingly ignorant position .

As you know ignorance of the law does not mean innocence. ALL muslims know damn well what the west is: Evil. This knowledge is deeply seeded in their brains from infancy in their homes and schools.

It is not the west that has launched war on islam but their golden boy prophet for the last fourteen hundred years ago. Only to be interrupted by the crusades and subsequent colonisation.

The resurgence of islam we witness today is the result of recent decolonisation.

I wish we had some Jewish people in these forums to add their accounts of the true stories. But I guess they have nothing to gain or lose – they know who they are in God’s eye – and they understand too well what those arabs represent (spiritually or physically) to them: a mere nuisance that they can squash any time they wish; but chose not to, to maintain world peace... longer.

We don’t expect you or other outside viewers to understand the spiritual warfare that is taking place between good and evil. You only see and judge the obvious.

Remember Jesus answers to Pilate?

36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." John 18:36-37

Christians are on the winning team even if the world hates us.

"If the world hates you, (said Jesus) keep in mind that it hated me first.” John 15:18

R0bert,

In all sincerity I find your analytical ability lacking and quite disappointing.

My anti-Islam agenda was clear from the start. You failed to discern and then suggest I've been hiding something.

I'm foremost anti-Islam, not anti-Muslims. Islamic ideology manifests itself in human acts. I do not go around chasing and attacking Muslims. But a Muslim who actively protects the 'honour' of Muhammed and rationalizes evil doings carried out in the name of Islam and projects soft image of Islam naturally becomes my target.

You said: "- any muslim who...embrace peace, tolerance....just a very clever actor."
Your analysis is completely wrong. Read my earlier posts. I proved that FH does not really understand 'tolerance'. Not that I thought he was pretending or acting. I've always known Muslims have a warped sense of tolerance and peace. I simply attempt to prove and highlight the hypocrisy for all to see.

Your thinking that I am unfair and prejudicial is misguided. I do not attack or even mildly criticise any other ideology- Atheist, Buddhism, Christianity... Zzzzism. Not even Communism or Fanaticism (except with a caveat- as long as it is not Islamic).

My suggestion that Muslims are guilty/suspects by association is not a reckless anti-Muslim view as you may think. A hint- What happens in one part of the world can trigger events in other far-away places.

BUT THIS YOU SAID: "...none...christians on this site...challenge your views so far - guilt by silence...?". You statement is very POOR TASTE and very OFFENSIVE. I question your INTEGRITY foremost.

I do have some insight into Islam. Islam has been around and me too. (But you're a novice.)

Your belief that conflict with Muslim is provoked by people like me is SERIOUSLY FRAUDED. A hint- I mentioned earlier "Islam's uniquely deceptive"

It was obvious to me (very early on) you have a sort of propensity that actually makes it harder for you to open your mind to some ideas. If you value the trait you earlier mentioned "...a willingness to seek out a better understanding..." then this is something to think about.

Fellow Human – you criticise my source material. This following is the situation anyone who wants to understand Mohammed finds themselves in.

By the end of the seventh century Islam had expanded right across North Africa and up into Spain, and east as far as India. The Qur’an (according to tradition) was the centerpiece of their faith. Within that enormous sphere of influence, there should be some Qur’anic documents or manuscripts which have survived. Yet, there isn’t even a scrap from that period. There is literally nothing from the first three generations of Islam to suggest that the Qur’an existed.
“While Christianity can claim more than 5,500 known Greek fragments and manuscripts of the New Testament, 10,000 Latin Vulgates and at least 9,500 other early versions, adding up to 25,000 New Testament sources still in existence (McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict), most of which were written between 25 to 350 years after the death and resurrection of Christ (or between the 1st and 4th centuries), Islam cannot provide a single manuscript until well into the eighth century (Lings, Safadi, Schimmel). If Christians could retain so many thousands of ancient documents, all of which were written centuries earlier, at a time when paper had not yet been introduced, forcing the dependency on papyrus which disintegrated more rapidly, then one wonders why Muslims were unable to forward a single manuscript from this much later period? This renders the argument that all the earliest Qur’ans simply disintegrated with age, absurd to the extreme.”

And you want to dispense with the only biography of Mohammed available! Ibn Hisham and al-Tabari both used the non-extant biography written by Ibn Ishaq around 750AD. Hisham wrote that he excluded material that was disfavourable to the prophet, al-Tabari used Ishaq when the material he collected conflicted with Ibn Ishaq i.e. Tabari considered Ishaq the authority not himself.

Allah says in the Q 100’s of times to follow the prophet’s example. The Q doesn’t contain hardly anything about Mohammed. Tabari is the history, Sahith Bukhari/Muslim are thematic reports only.

As for the similarities between apocryphal gospels and Tabari – there is none. Tabari/Hisham (who admits he edited unfavourable stuff from Ishaq) are the only history we have.

The apocryphal Gospels were written more than a century after the canonical ones. By those who had much to gain from the changes.

Islam has nothing earlier than Ishaq, if the only biographical info of Jesus were the Gnostic Gospels written 100 years after Jesus then we would have to take them seriously. But these documents were rejected by Christians because they had the authentic accounts at hand. When the canonical gospels were accepted there were ppl alive who could confirm or refute what was written in them. This is how they took their central place among the early Christians.

The Christian West has a long history of self censorship, I’d argue that these elements have gone to far lately are ideologically driven and have severely weakened our society. But remember no such tradition exists in Islam, it is religiously forbidden.

Christian source material has been scrutinised for two thousand years you’re on a hiding to nothing trying to defend Islamic source material as against the Christian.

I guess I'll add another century to my batting record.

From what I have seen ,heard,done,listened to and looked at on all forms of media in the past 27 years as a REAL Bible believing Christian aged in my 60's I have some wisdom as the Bible says," to look to the grey headed elders for wisdom".

I don't know it all, but see that religion is getting hated worldwide because of this RAGE from ALL Muslims not just the fanatics.

Jim Bramlett's site put out an e -mail a few days ago called "RAGE".With
It is all about Muslims, mad ,crazy,fist shaking,gun firing,yelling,abusive rage from men ,women,and kids as young as 3yrs old.
Some kids have machine guns and are burning flags of the West.This will be instilled in their psyche forever.
So,we can look forward to these hate filled demo's or world war 3 sooner or later .

I would like to add, that no where in the New Testament Bible does it say to kill,maim,abuse or retaliate ,anyone who hates you.
Jesus, a Prophet recognised by Islam ,and who is The Son of God ,tells no lies ,He can't ,He said," to love one another".

Islam or Muslims don't take this Prophet of God seriouslly ,but rampage all over the world in every country .

It cannot be stopped now as The Bible says they will cut off heads and kills Christians in the end days and think they are doing God a favour .
Have we reached that yet,I say "Yes"?

It is hard to me to assess a forum from some comps, so with some delay responding to

“Muslims rioting over a cartoon ? Nonsense. Why are they burning any flag other than Denmarks? Why is Iran blaming the Jews?

Posted by Benjamin, Wednesday, 8 February 2006 6:41:43 PM”


must admit once again that difference in mentality is a significant issue.

A cartoon is a next significant opportunity to express this difference on the streets while blaming the Jews for inspiring the Christian cartoonists, in all sins unthinkable as usual.
Are Muslims original in this

"The Muslim mobs might also consider how the Prophet responded to attacks on himself. I am not aware of any biographical record of the Prophet taking any revenge for attacks on his person. I remember one recorded incident of a Jewish neighbour who was in the habit of pouring faeces over the Prophet. One day, the faeces stopped. The Prophet’s response was to inquire about the neighbour’s health."

THE QUESTIONS ARE ASKED OF Irfan: which biographies of Mohammad has he read, and which biographies of Mohammad is he aware of but has not read?

Preserving your culture isn't hate. It's survival.

When a government has ceased to protect the lives,
liberty and property of the people, from whom it's
legitimate powers are derived, and for the
advancement of whose happiness it was instituted,
and, so far from being a guarantee for the enjoyment
of those inestimable and inalienable rights, becomes an
instrument in the hands of evil rulers for their oppression;...
--THE TEXAS DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, MARCH 2, 1836

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will
not be needed until they try to take it."
--Thomas Jefferson
I think That we are at cross roads now of either standing up for our nations culture for survival or we cave in and allow Muslims to dictate to Australians to go their demanding twisted ways, to rule us and TAKE OVER OUR LOVED LAND .

Politicians and leaders who are ignoring this ,need not apply, at the next elections.
We need a declaration like the above, for our sanity sake and safety before we are snowballed ,as have the French newspapers ,being sued by Muslims because they re- printed the cartoons. Come on Aussie come on!

GZ Tan,

Go to the Nobel prize organisation website.
Even that Islamic culture is at rock bottom, there were 8 Nobel prize winners (including 4 for peace) in the last two decades.

Martin Ibn W,

Tend to agree with other posters you need to study a lot more.
The Egyptian Islamic Museum in Cairo have original scripture of the Quran (undotted). Scanned with C14, it dates back to the 7th century when the Holybook was written in the time of the prophet (althought not collected at the same period). There is only one version of the Quran.

There is no point in comparing authenticity of the Quran and the Bible but you can re-read Alchemist postings on the subject to learn a little more. There are so many inserts in modern day bibles and discrepencies with previously authenticated versions of the bible pre the Roman Catholic period.
If you have access to someone who is fluent in reading in old languages he will tell you the translation varies from Coptic to Latin to Arabic to English (both meanings and verses).

Posted by coach, Saturday 11 Feb; “If some muslims are 'moderate’; it's either a deliberately hypocritical or unwittingly ignorant position ...ALL muslims know damn well what the west is: Evil. This knowledge is deeply seeded in their brains from infancy in their homes and schools.

I wish we had some Jewish people in these forums to add their accounts of the true stories...they understand too well what those arabs represent (spiritually or physically) to them: a mere nuisance that they can squash any time they wish; but chose not to, to maintain world peace... longer.”

Hi Coach, I’m Jewish, for my personal perspective see http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/1241#comment

But it’s probably not what you’re expecting or wanting. I do know a bit about Arabs, my sister married one, an Iraqi Jew. I recently visited Middle East, stayed with an Arab Muslim family.

My views are not representative of all Jews but then my experiences are different. Jews don’t all think alike, anymore than a group comprising athletes, or teenagers, or single dads, or teachers, or dog owners, or Australians...or Christians or Muslims.

Best wishes

Fellow_Human,

Your hypocritical assertions are fast eroding the last bit of credibility you have left on OLO
You may have one or two historical pieces of the Qur'an - but the facts still are: "There is no possible compromise between biblical Christianity and Islam and none should be sought."

You have a dilemma
________________

Fellow Posters,

I must stand for the true Gospel (and against all other false teachings).

"There is only one true faith; prophesied in the Garden of Eden, typified in the days of Noah, confirmed to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and realized in the Person and work of Jesus Christ."

Dialogue with Muslims is therefore not possible due to vast differences between Christianty and islam (nothing in common).

1. According to the Bible, Allah is not God.
2. Therefore Muhammed is not a prophet
3. AND the Qur’an is not the Word of God (or His angels).

Furthermore:

1. Islam has rejected the essential teachings of the Word of God.
2. Islam doesn't recognize Jesus Christ as the Saviour or The Son of God.
3. The person and work of Christ is the crucial divider between Christianity and Islam.
4. Islam offers false hope - cannot save (utterly without power to save mankind)
5. Islam’s so-called prophet brought an erroneous message from a false spirit that is totally opposed to the Gospel of God's grace.

No person, no matter how religious or how sincere, can possess truth or salvation apart from Christ's atoning death.

We are all hopelessly lost. All are naturally at enmity with God, unable to save ourselves

Jesus is the perfect and only sacrifice (substitute) which God will accepts in behalf of ALL sinners (everyone of us).

The only way for salvation: Repenting of one's sins, Believing and Trusting on Christ.

So coach what you appear to be suggesting is that there is really no possibility of meaningfull dialog between your type of christianity and any other belief system. "Your way or the highway" as it were.

Maybe it's about time we looked at sending fundy christains back where they came from or to some place where they will fit in.

Maybe better yet we could set aside a small island somewhere and stick all the extremists looking for a fight on it with a good supply of short range non radioactive weapons and just let you go for it. Might save that vast majority of people a lot of trouble and let us get on with improving this world. If your God (or anybody elses) has an issue with that he should know where to find me.

As a matter of interest exactly where in the bible does it mention Allah by name? There is a reasonable case to support that Allah is Jaweh (or however you spell that) by a different name, the God of the Old Testament.

R0bert

Sorry Coach but you deserve a wake up call,

“Dialogue with Muslims is not possible because they have nothing in common”
FH: the commandments, Jesus pbuh and all prophets is what we have in common.

1. According to the Bible, Allah is not God.
FH: Allah: is Arabic for God and its all over the Van Dyek Bible (order a free copy through the Egyptian Bible society).

“2. Muhammed is not a prophet”

FH: Right! So an honest illiterate Sheppard in the middle of nowhere decide to invent a new religion at the age of 40. Because he loved to be persecuted the following 2 decades! Why would the Quran glorify all Isrealite prophets (including Jesus and Moses) but rarely mentions prophet Mohamed?

1. Islam has rejected the essential teachings of the Word of God.
FH: Islam confirms the commandments, prayers, fasting, help the poor, honour the parents, be truthful, sponsor the widow and the orphan. Which ‘essential teaching’ of God is missing in your views?

2. Islam doesn't recognize Jesus Christ as Saviour or The Son of God.

FH: Son Of God is a theory introduced by the Nicea creed 325AD. In fact, the trinity was debatable for another 56 years (381AD) on whether the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. Throughout the Bible Jesus refers to himself as a lesser being than the Father (on the cross and when asked about judgement day “Only the father knows”)

3. The person and work of Christ is the crucial divider between Christianity and Islam.

FH: Jesus should not be a divider for us but a common ground for a dialogue and not a debate.

5. Islam’s so-called prophet brought an erroneous message from a false spirit that is totally opposed to the Gospel of God's grace.

FH: any 5 y.o. who read authentic meaning translation will tell you that the Quran confirms the contents of the Torah and the Bible. Islam never claimed to be a ‘new religion’.

Grow up,

Hi FH,

Just like any Muslim intellect I know, who not only lacks an understanding of 'tolerance', now you are showing a lack of understanding of 'peace' as well.

Since when have Muslims taken Nobel prize seriously - thinking, gee us people of Islam should strive hard to win more Nobel prizes for the glory of Allah?

Never mind narrow-minded violence on the street, winning a few peace prize is proof that Islam is a peaceful religion? That Muslims understand the meaning of peace?

I assure you any Muslim who can prove his worth in peace by miraculously putting a stop overnight to all the violent Islamic demonstrations and suicide bombings ought to AUTOMATICALLY be granted not one, but TEN Nobel peace prize each and every year.

Unfortunately, even if there is such a peace-maker, still does NOT mean that Islam is a religion of peace. Know what I mean?

When debating the details about Islam, people can easily lost sight of the big pictures. Here's one such perspective:-

The ONLY REASON why Islam is a 'great' religion today is that it has well exceeded a 'critical mass' since medieval time. There are enough Muslims to line EVERY STREET in the western world with fanatics who are prepared to defend the 'honour' of Mohammed. (ie. blow themselves up)

What would Islam be like if Mohammed was born in this modern Information Age?

Possibly still a polygamous illiterate, someone who kills if necessary to get his way and one who tries to convince you that he has heard directly from a godhead.

Don't you think he'd be exposed as a lunatic in no time, and be isolated just like any cult leader? I think even Branch Davidians and Sun Yung Moon would outlast him by a BIG margin. Where's the proof that Allah has cummunicate to him? Is there a miracle about Mohammed and his teachings? Isn't he just another mid-east thug or gang leader?

One thing I'm sure though is that there will not be Moon sighting for the 'holy' month of Ramadan. In this modern age, even Mohammed would not be stupid enough to look to the Moon, now that human have stepped foot on that rock.

In other word, Islam was just 'LUCKY' (if that's the right word), lucky that it had accummulated enough 'body mass' since primitive medievial time.

All Islam needs now is to spread it's army of lunatics across the globe and guard each and every street, pick up anyone who dares to utter the slightest dissent against its very 'honourable' prophet...oh yes... and to make sure everyone prays five times a day facing a fixed direction... O allah..u..akbar (is it something like that?)

I hear Islam is here to stay... Yes, of course. What else can you do with one-fifth of narrow-minded world population, even if you can convince them Islam is a hoax? Give them real opium as a substitute? (Hee.hee..hee.... that's funny.)

Being a practile AGNOSTIC , I just wish all these Muslim and Christian Fundamentalists would go and find themselves a afterlife and leave the rest of us to enjoy the present one

FH,

Islam has rejected the essential teachings of the Word of God.
FH: Islam confirms the commandments, prayers, fasting, help the poor, honour the parents, be truthful, sponsor the widow and the orphan. Which ‘essential teaching’ of God is missing in your views?

As you know Christians live by the New Testament and the Old Testament. The OT was about the law and the dos and dont's that God put there to show humans that it is impossible to reach perfection (God's standard) by ourselves. And to demonstrate how we are ALL sinners regardless how "Good" we think we live.

In the NT God reveals GRACE (his free pardon) - He saves us through the death on the cross of His Son Jesus. By accepting this "gift of salvation" a Christian enters God's family - His eternal Kingdom.

So no more rituals, fasting, helping the poor, counting stars or whatever religious people do these days, NONE of these can help anybody to get any closer to God's standard.

ONLY through Jesus.

So by dismissing the entire New Testament's teaching in the Qur'an, Mohammad has shot himself in the foot. He had to invent a Jesus and call him a prophet like himself no more.

Are you starting to see clearer now? Can you see how the two teachings are different? Yours is a religion of DOs while Christ Has DONE it all for us.

Your Qur'an does not FOLLOW the bible - it mentions some bits apropriate only to islam.

For all religious purposes islam is a fraud.

I agree Islam is a fraud as it says do,do,do Christianity says ,done,done,done,at The Cross and as Christ said ,It IS FINISHED. no longer to be continued .
Get it!Good.



Australia The Right to Leave

Our Country YOU Have the right to leave

After Sydney not wanting to offend other cultures by putting up Xmas lights.

After hearing that the State of South Australia changed its opinion and let a Muslim woman have her picture on her driver's license with her face covered.

Published in an Australian newspaper

Quote:

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It !

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the politically correct crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not

However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language.

Because God is part of our culture.

If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like A Fair Go then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, And we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
THE RIGHT TO LEAVE

MUSLIM FANATICS HAVE BEEN JUMPING UP AND DOWN LIKE SPOILT CHILDREN BECAUSE A CARTOON WAS PUBLISHED THAT THEY FOUND OFFENSIVE.
MAYBE BECAUSE OF THEIR OVER SENSITIVITY TOWARDS SUCH MATERIAL, THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE GONE AROUND BOMBING THIS THAT AND THE OTHER THING SCREAMING 'MOHAMMAD IS GREAT, DEATH TO THE INFADELS!'AND KILLING THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE. NOW THATS WHAT I FIND OFFENSIVE.THERE'S AN OLD SAYING...."IF YOU CAN'T STAND THE HEAT STAY OUT OF THE KITCHEN.'

Coach,

My comment was in response to your claim that 'there is no common ground for a dialogue with Islam'.

Yet you claim it easy to have a Judeo-Christian dialogue while the existence of judaism means you are living a fantasy. The Judeo part is still waiting for the messiah and savior. And you don't follow the Torah (notice I never call it OT). So where does that leave you? I thought Islam is a step closer.

GZ Tan,

Emotional upper case and making your own jokes and laugh at them tell us a lot about you.
I don't need to prove Islam is peaceful since OLO is a living proof of Muslims actions: over the last few months, myself and few other Muslim posters (including new Anglo Muslims) communicated with many and established a dialogue with lots of people from different faith and interests.

On the other hand, we have people like you with 35 postings with nothing else in your brain but bashing Islam and Muslims.

Get a life!

If OLO can be used as a microcosm of current levels of religious understanding and tolerance. It can clearly be argued that Muslims are indeed being targeted. The high levels of denigration of Islam is dismayingly high. It is no wonder that Muslims feel victimised.

This observation in no way condones the violent response of some Muslims to the 12 cartoons. There is no excuse. However, continuing to abuse moderate and innocent Muslims is not going to solve anything.

If Fellow_Human was to respond with the same levels of vitriol hurled at him day after day - the self-appointed,self-righteous contingent would be screaming murder. These deluded souls reserve the right to hurl abuse but are unable to accept even the mildest critism of their views.

In all things, balance.

I think it is an accurate comment that leaders of Islamic countries are happy to divert attention away from themselves. They may not know that the newspaper editor in question in Denmark refused to publish insulting cartoons of Jesus only a couple of years ago, with the reasoning that their readers wouldn't appreciate them. This puts the free speech arguement (of the editor) into some perspective.
For everyone else, however, the free speech arguement is sound. Insulting someone's religion should be a right, because it is one of the ways societies change. Brave people stand out from the crowd, and say sometimes contemptable things. But over the following years, the majority reflect on the truth to be found in such statements, and accept that truth. And so societies change.
Islam's main problem is that it is not really a religion, but a political system pretending to be a religion. As such, it seeks power. Hence it is opposed to free speech, because that acts as a brake on the power of the political elite.
Any return to the golden age of Islam would be a retur to an age of ignorance and oppression. Islam's political agenda is quite clear: Islam seeks a prefuedal society where the political elites murder eachother and the populace with impunity, and where the political elites gather wealth to themselves.
And anyone who seriously thinks that Mahommad never sought revenge does not now the early history of Islam. Islam is soaked in blood.
Read a few of the critical histories and see for yourself. This is the world the Muslims would take you to.

I'd like to second Scout's comments regarding Fellow Human. He is a model of patience and humility and a credit to his religion.

As for the response to the cartoons, an interesting situation in Pakistan- on the same day that the parliament passed a law repealing some of the more horrific aspects of Sharia's treatment of rape victims, they also condemned the cartoons. I'd suggest that a lot of moderate Islamic elites see the cartoon furore as a harmless way of shoring up their Islamic credentials and securing power against the fanatics in their societies.

FH,

Gee..."a model...and a credit to his religion". (Is KRS1 an Anglo convert to Islam by any chance?)

Won't I have to tone down in face of such lavish compliment? But I certainly think camo is a person of far better analysis and insight.

Now that we have experienced freedom of expression in OLO, how about we all move to your Islamic forum sites and have a bash around. Do you think we'd be granted the same latitude? If not, then why the hypocrisy?

FH, isn't it safer to fallback on friendly supports than trying to prove Islam is peaceful and tolerant? You'd fall flat on your face every time.

Your saying "...OLO is a living proof of Muslims actions....including new Anglo Muslims..." is yet another hint of the ulterior motives of Muslims - here to (i) convert the gullible to Islam and (ii) subvert an institution of freedom which OLO represents.

Warning, this is in bad taste:- Know why those drug mules arrested in Bali are Anglo Aussies while the master-minds are not? Simple, the Anglo are a lot more 'credible', hence success rate is higher.

So Anglo Muslims are 'pride' and 'joy' of Islamic conversion. Better still, an Anglo ex-Christian minister, who is now all too ready to give testimony why he converted to Islam. Heavy-duty deception indeed....

But there's more... What better use than to turn some Anglo newbies into suicide-bombers... Now the MIND BOGGLES !! Some Anglo may go anywhere without being suspected. Some are probably working in the heart of 'homeland security' department right now...

So, just like when Islam extremists told us "We can hit you anywhere, anytime...God willing". They are not kidding you know.

But God willing? What God??

Now listen good - Where truth is concerned, it's IRRELEVANT what personal good-will you espouse. Knowingly or unknowingly, you're doing the DEVIL's bidding. It's not God by any stretch of imagination.

Even the most evil regime can have a charming facade that deceives outsiders. Islam certainly needs someone like that in OLO, that'd be - YOU !!

(Take this as a compliment as well)

KRS 1

I cannot figure out how you can speak about the rape of people and cartoons in the same breath. That is a strange connection for me. Can you explain further please?

Cheers
Kay

"FH: Right! So an honest illiterate Sheppard in the middle of nowhere decide to invent a new religion at the age of 40. Because he loved to be persecuted the following 2 decades! Why would the Quran glorify all Isrealite prophets (including Jesus and Moses) but rarely mentions prophet Mohamed?"

Fellow Human, there is actually a really good historical account of how Islam came to be, called "Twenty Three Years", by Ali Dashti.
He was an Iranian journalist, who was in the end died in Kohmeini's
jails at 86.

Why I mention it, is that its historical, not condeming or praising,
however asking some interesting questions. It sold something like
half a million copies in Lebanon when first published, it was translated into English after his death.

Its about Mohamed's life and once you understand that, you understand how Islam came together. Its not quite how you present
it above. Mecca was in fact a major trade area, with people going there to worship already at that time. So he was exposed to and influenced by many people and all sorts of religions and philosophies. Islam is a combination of those.

Scout its good to hear your concerns about prejudice, you are correct that prejudice is wrong.

I find it interesting that you have not spoken out against anti-Christian prejudice. This occurs constantly in here but not a word from you in defence of Christians, in fact you have stoked the fires of it.

What I have written about Islam comes from their own books. Show me where I have told a lie and I will apologise. Prove my prejudice and I will not post again.

Instead of taking issue point by point you and FH evade the argument. Calling people Pinocchio’s is the last insult FH has used in evasion of the issues. Did you know that telling lies to defend Islam is religiously sanctioned in Islam?

I understand the difference between religion and its practical application. I have said before its even harder for Muslims to be peaceful with such scriptures as they have taken as holy. Those that are peaceful are worthy of greater plaudits than me.

What we have in common is greater than what separates us. Ordinary Muslims desire individual and cultural humility before right authority, respect for parents and strong families, traditional morality rather than permissiveness.

All of these things are good but Hitler wanted similar things. He was lauded by, industrialists because of his desire to militarise the country, Jews and Christians for criticism immorality, Germans for his Nationalism, the army for his hatred of Versailles.

Mein Kampf was the evidence of who he was. Only Winston Churchill knew what Nazism meant and he was ridiculed and sidelined for saying it. The King of England no less was a fan of Hitler, Lloyd George PM of England during WWI was admiring of Nazism. If they can be deceived you can too Scout.

It is undeniable that many Muslims murder for their faith, many approve of this, and the majority are adversaries of the political freedoms from European Christianity. European Muslims have not assimilated, after two to three generations.

I find you do not even bother to get across the issues you post about.

Your easy costless political correctness is damaging to all Australians.

Again I ask you. Look at Islam’s holy books. Find out what they say.

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Author/Sina.htm
http://jihadwatch.org/
http://www.newcriterion.com/
http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/dwest.htm
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/others/spengler.html

Take a close look at how Muslims behave wherever they are in the world. The conflicts are Muslim – Hindu in Kashmir, Muslim –Buddhist in Thailand, Muslim –Christian in Darfur etc.

In the Southern Hemisphere the spread of Christianity has been benign and non-violent. This is far from the case with Islam. I can’t believe you do not see what is happening in our world.

FH defence of Islamic ideas is attacked not FH.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer021006.php3

Islam has been a heavy weight on the Arab people we are in sympathy with him. Islam is perhaps the most dangerous lie the world has known, and these are only effective if they have a good veneer of truth. Its persistence is a function of how little Muslims know about Islam and how dependent they are on what their imams tell them.

There is no excuse anymore for being ignorant.

LittleAgreeableBuddy explained how there have been approaches by Muslims to the government so they can live under articles of Sharia law. Two pastors were sued by the Islamic Council of Victoria for telling the truth.

If Australian's have lost their instinct for national and cultural self defence, Islam, which has no love for our freedoms will use these freedoms to impose Sharia. The Quran tells them to do this.

Threats of violence are affecting free speech, it now takes more than ordinary courage to speak up. But that is what we are called to do now.

People in Australia and Europe have been so diseased with secular humanism and relativism we cannot even breed enough to replace our population.

Iran means to destroy Israel. Islamists promise to kill large numbers in terrorist attacks. Saudi’s spend millions spreading Wahabist Islam to all parts of the West.

Wake up. As Shakespeare said ‘tis mere childishness to bemoan what cannot be avoided’

We must present a strong united front against Muslim assertiveness under the guise of tolerance.

Martin

You complain that I don't defend Christianity.

1. I'm not a Christian

2. I am constantly personally attacked by Christian posters for not believing in your religion.

Which leads me to paraphrase you:

"We must present a strong united front against RELIGIOUS assertiveness under the guise of tolerance.

GZ Tan,

Go through my postings: I never attacked any one else faith or no faith. I never commented when people of all backgrounds praise their own beliefs (including atheism like Alchemist).

I only comment when my faith is misinterpreted or misrepresented.
(by the way I respond to comments from Islamist fanatics on my blogspot and other forums I contribute to).

On the other hand yourself and few others seem to only post about another faith. You are a bunch of hateful angry mob who are stuck in the Nazi Germany understanding of Christianity and Jesus pbuh.

The sadest part of your comments is the split personality disorder: 'spew hate hate hate then claim "God is Love" and sign out.

May I suggest professional medical help and a therapist sofa?

Yabby,

Why is it that all Muslim & Islam bashing books is written by an 'Ali' or 'Mohamed' or whatever?
I mean if they 'saw the light' and left Islam, shoudn't they start by having a non-muslim name?

As I said elsewhere...

Jesus was simply a fraud who knew how to con people into getting his way. He was final caught out and paid the ultimate price for ‘blaspheming’ the then current religion.

Fellow_Human,

You just don't get it...

(1) Whether you attack anyone else is not the point. I'd attack Islam even if everyone thinks you're a 'saint'. Islam is a real and present threat to freedom and democracy. Unfortunately there are people like you whom others look to as a token of Islamic tolerance... and then be deceived.
(2) I have clearly stated I do not attack anyone else's faith. Islam is one and the ONLY one I confront. (Aren't glad you lots are special?)
(3) You misrepresented me by commenting on "split personality". I don't have a split personality. I know and understand VERY WELL love as taught by Jesus. But that's only a knowledge thing for me right now and I choose not to love. (Leave that to God to deal with me, if you may.) For me right now truth is EVERYTHING, emotion does not come into it.

I am honest and never knowingly a hypocrite. So criticise any other person if you may. I would be writing similar stuff even if I'm Atheist or Buddhist !!

So here I go again - If Mohammed were to be born in this Information Age of ours, there'd be no Islam at all. He'd just be another cult leader, a mid-east thug or a gang leader. He'd most probably be... in JAIL.

Sorry to interrupt your nice party in OLO.

(Reason can make any assertment about Jesus for all I care. I'm just a bit annoyed he has the cheek to call himself 'Reason'. I'd like some proof of his ability to think. )

"Why is it that all Muslim & Islam bashing books is written by an 'Ali' or 'Mohamed' or whatever?
I mean if they 'saw the light' and left Islam, shoudn't they start by having a non-muslim name?"

Fellow Human, I think these are just common names in the Middle East.
Ali Dashti actually spent time in a Madrassa etc. He did not bash Islam as you suggest. He wrote a historical account of Mohammed's life, full of references. He asked questions which any thinking person could ask, without bashing anyone.

There is a huge difference between critical thinking and emotive rhetoric, a smart guy like you should be aware of that.

If you are interested in Mohamed's life, thats what its about.
How Islam came about, is also what its about. Critically thinking about what we believe and reading about that is a good idea, IMHO.

Scout, I think I've stumbled onto a massive hoax and we have been had.

FH is apparently not the nice sane guy which all his posts make him look like, rather FH is one of the alias's for a muslim extremist who I shall call MM (for MadMuslim) who just waiting to come rampaging down my street and slaughter my Guinea Pigs (no goats here sorry) whilst yelling Muslim things which I don't understand in Arabic.

The christain fundies are aliases for the same extremist who is trying to make christainity look bad by the appalling attitudes and lack of fairness, justice etc expressed in their posts. FH is just a construct set up to allow the "nasty christains" to pick on the innocent muslim (and various others). Playing on the Aussie habit of supporting the underdog and our liking for a fair go.

It was going well but MM has been getting a bit carried away recently and some of the new characters have diverged so far from actual christain views that the hoax has been exposed. It all makes sense once you get the special insight to see it.

I think BD, Sels and Irfan and a few others with depth to their characters are real.

I could be wrong about FH, he pretty convincing and maybe really is the innocent victim of MM's attempts to discredit christainity but I'll be watching like a hawk for any unbelievable niceness.

MM, the game is up.

R0bert

RObert

My goodness. I have never seen you speak like this before.

You sound really angry. What a "healthy" feeling state!

It would not surprise me in the least if we have been conned.

I know that you and BOAZ _David are fair dinkum - since I have spoken with both of you on the telephone. Both of you telephoned me because you were very concerned about my family. I was very grateful to both of you - as you individually know.

To other posters: RObert and BD are male and they are real. They have not had any phone contact with me since, but I know that they have my family's welfare at heart - even though we may not share the same views.

OK ROb - I can't stand the bait. Who is FH really? How do you know?
You can't be sued for defamation or slander since this is an anonymous forum.

Cheers
Kay

Not sure what I'd make of all these... but suddenly and unexpectedly I feel my time here is up. I have said enough in a short time, I hope.

It's good to hear from Kalweb there is a real human touch between some... I do remember BD in my last visit, asking where I might have come from.

I may sound like a mean bastard. Believe me I always "try to be less aggro" as I told R0bert in response to his first rebuke of me... I am normally very brutal in my writings. So consider my recent posts quite mild-mannered.

This is only my second visit here, an even shorter one.

Until another significant event arouses my interest, bye for now...

YOU MIGHT FIND THIS ARTICLE INTERESTING

Denmark and Jyllands-Posten: The background to a provocation

By Peter Schwarz
10 February 2006

Last autumn Jyllands-Posten assigned 40 prominent Danish caricaturists to draw the Prophet Muhammad. Twelve responded and the results were published on September 30. The project was deliberately designed to provoke.

When the anticipated reaction by the Muslim community failed to arise, the newspaper continued its campaign, determined to create a full-scale scandal. After a week had gone by without protest, journalists turned on Danish Islamic religious leaders who were well known for their fundamentalist views and demanded: “Why don’t you protest?” Eventually, the latter reacted and alerted their co-thinkers in the Middle East.

At this point the head of the Danish government, Andres Fogh Rasmussen, and the xenophobic Danish People’s Party, which is part of the ruling coalition, swung into action. Fogh Rasmussen demonstratively turned down appeals by concerned Arab ambassadors for talks to clarify the issue. Even after 22 former Danish ambassadors appealed to the prime minister to hold discussions with the representatives of Islamic states, Rasmussen maintained his stance, arguing that “freedom of the press” could not be a topic for diplomatic discussion.

The chairperson of the Danish People’s Party, Pia Kjaersgaard, insulted Danish Muslims who complained about the caricatures, publicly denouncing them as national traitors because they supposedly placed their religious beliefs above free speech.

From the start, the campaign had nothing to do with “free speech” and everything to do with the political agenda of the Fogh Rasmussen government, comprising of a coalition of right-wing neo-liberals and conservatives, together with the Danish People’s Party.

The latter rose to prominence in the 1990s when all of the country’s bourgeois parties—including the then-governing Social Democrats—responded to a mounting social crisis with xenophobic campaigns. The People’s Party declared at the time that Islam was a “cancerous ulcer” and “terrorist movement.” Kjaersgaard, notorious for her racist outbursts, declared that the Islamic world could not be regarded as civilized. “There is only one civilization, and that is ours,” she said........

GZ Tan

come back sometime... you have good arguments.

Robert,

You totally lost me on your last posting.
When did I ever attack your faith or others on these forums?
All my postings are the same and the same goes for my blogspot.
Is this the same Robert?

To all right thinking Australians and non dhimmified western countries. The time sadly is approaching when we shall have to deport islam and its peoples from our sunny shores.
You would no more take a dangerous dog into your house, so why would we bring these obviously dangerous people to our country, its ludicrous.Theres no such thing as moderate muslims only those that have not answered the call to jihad.
The hoohaa about the silly cartoons has only served to open the wests eyes to the dangers of this sadistic religion.
If there were a referendum tommorow there would be a good chance youd all be loaded on a boat and sent back to what ever awful hell hole you came from.
PS: mohummed was a child molesting, raping, murderous bastard and probably a pig defiler.
Cop that.....

Thank you, R0bert, for a good laugh. I have been rather ill lately and needed a good belly laugh.

My personal jury is out regards to FH - how do you explain his blogspot? While some of his posts have become a little more prickly lately - with the bullying from the C.C.'s (christian contingent), who can blame him? They are intolerant and rude. I do hope that FH is not an MM.

Which brings me to your theory that the C.C.'s are indeed a plot to make christians look bad. Has a lot of merit. And answers a lot of questions. I think you may be right.

Good thinking 86

There is hope for goodness and niceness yet.

LOL

99

Hi Scout,

I guess you got a point my last few postings sounded a bit more annoyed than usual. I cannot believe the agressive hateful attitude of some people on these forums who claim to be Christians!

Robert,

I wasn't aware of any of my postings could offend you. Apologies if you were.
I am not sure if your last posting was out of anger or just denial of a fact that there are nasty people on these forums whose primary focus is Islam bashing.

As for your comment on re poor helpless Muslims, I think I managed to sustain a logical, theological and nation building arguments with a lot of people on these forums. Many other Muslims came to these forums for a short while then just gave up from the level of prejudice they experienced.

Peace,

Scotty Says:

"The hoohaa about the silly cartoons has only served to open the wests eyes to the dangers of this sadistic religion."

But Scotty, do you have any idea what the the rest of the world, including the west, thought about the thuggery in Cronulla?

The community had a right to be angry that there was not enough done to protect beach-goers against the Leb hoons. But what the gangs of young Australian did was a total over-reaction, attacking many innocent people in the process. They looked just like an angry mob of Arabs outside an Embassy.

Thats right Scotty, we ended up looking just like we portray them.

Fellow Human - woops I guessing that you missed the joke. Sorry if I offended or distressed you. Your behaviour on these forums has been very impressive especially considering the level of provocation that you have had from some MC's lately.

I was having a laugh at the logic of some of the extremists who have insisted that your niceness and calm approach etc are evidence against you and who continue to point to their "special understanding of Islam" as a reason to support their sustained attacks on you. Those who insist that all muslims are bad and you must therefore be bad so apparent goodness is a cunning plot to deceive us gullable types. Those who hatred for your faith is so bad that they will cheerfully act in a manner which brings their own faith into disrepute to grab an opportunity to attack Islam. Those who insist on focussing on the failings of your faiths whilst living in denial of the failings of their own faith.

So again my apologies for any hurt caused, you have as always behaved in a manner which brings credit to yourself, your cultural background and your faith.

Cheers
R0bert

Woops to you too RObert,

For a short time I also thought that you were having a sober moment of lucidity... but I was wrong. Dooh!

You and you two friends who agree with you (one almost pationately) are still in lala land... on the other shore of reality.

Come back to earth before you miss the boat guys.

This is exactly were the likes of FH wants you to be while he is performing his nice jihad on the spiritually naive.

But then again you are the wise ones on this forum. Even God is too little for your kind of intellect.

Woops maybe you are the mole among us. Can't trust anyone these days.

Dear Fellow_Human

I admit that I am gullible. I fell for the satire in RObert's post, and his joke with Scout (Dianne).

FH, I am certain, knowing RObert, that his intention was not anything other than humour.

RObert

It is clear that people did not get your joke.

Come on Aussies! I thought we were all masters of satire!!

Cheers
Kay

coach, don't get to excited.

In hindsight my attempt to reach deep into the lala land of the Fundie muslim hater and parody the kind of post routinely put out did not dip deep enough into lala land. Rather an attempt to present a really silly idea just looked liked another CC/MC post. Maybe if I'd added in that my special knowledge was given to me by angels it might have made the joke more obvious but given some of the posts which have been put up by the CC/MC crowd I'm not confident of that.

If what FH is doing is jihad then let him bring it on, I'll take his form of jihad over the CC/MC version of love and justice any day.

Scout, glad somebody got it and enjoyed it. Hope you feel better.

R0bert

Hi Y'all,
Some questions.
Where is the NT Biblical mandate for christians to take offence at anything from a non-christian?
How far should a christian walk with an enemy if compelled?
What is the role of humility and gentleness in explaining the christian faith to others?
How should christians live their lives in order to witness to the gospel?

And, if I'm going to be particularly pointed,
When was the last time any of the christian posters spoke with Jesus and what did he say?

Odsoc
PS. Very good article Irfan.

G'day Odsoc.

People often think Jesus was meek and mild. On close inspection of the Gospels its clear Jesus said some terrifying things, that he acted with power and authority when confronting wrong doing.

He told demons to 'shut up' and get out, threw out the tables of the money changers with furious anger at their damnable behaviour.

He must have been furious also with the stupefyingly hypocritical Pharisees when he asked them how they expected to avoid going to Hell.

Jesus hated evil, he used warnings to remind people what they were doing eg

"the wheat and the tares",
"the sheep and the goats" (sheep and goats almost indistinguishable back then)
"Lazarus and the Rich Man"
"the parable of the Sower".

These are His people - the Godhead's people. He had authority to admonish them. Hell is not the place for humans.

But as we know humans slowly tortured to death our luminous Nazarene. People have never enjoyed being told the world view they have taken decades to construct is a house of cards. We kill and enjoin others to do the same rather than face up to ourselves.

Christianity has had billions of eyes on it for two thousand years now. Many have been envious hateful ones that have stopped at nothing to destroy it. The Church and what it stands for has been clawed and stabbed in almost every conceivable way from physical to intellectual assaults. If a fundamental weakness has been missed it hasn’t been missed through want of trying. It has stood like a beacon to all humanity and with alacrity do we attend to the job of trying to snuff it out.

Jesus and His Church.I’ll stand on this. I’ll build from here.

Others can have their private unscrutinised protected beliefs I want the real deal the stuff publicly tested by time and fire. Remember Christianity must be something remarkable indeed to attract such hateful attention.

The wrathful face of Jesus is hidden mostly from the masses. It is because the great mass of us are terribly broken and weak and need to hear the forgiving, gentle Jesus more than anything.

For posters in here who are foolish and would go whistling and skipping into Hell and who seek company on the journey - holding up a mirror to their beliefs is a loving act. It is following Jesus’ example, but the one that is kept from mass consumption.

Its none of my business what God wants of them, but one cannot be a Christian and let lies go unchallenged.

Honest error no worries, but those who should know better, those who pretend to speak with authority and spread lies about Our Loving God how can anyone be silent about this?

Wednesday's article from the International Herald Tribune is interesting and begins to unpick elements of the dark ages under discussion. Just as the "West" is no monolithic bloc, presumably Indonesia is no junior mouthpiece for middle east groupthink?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/15/opinion/edraslan.php

Hi Robert,

Apologies I guess I lost my sense of humour for a while there!

Never mind, here is a Muslim joke on Islamist extremists:

An Islamist extremist group managed finally to reach power in the country x.
The first decision they made was to cancel police A& army ranks and replace them with ‘beard length’ structure: the longest beard being the highest rank.
In the police head-quarters, a beardless man walking in the corridor bumped into a man with a long beard. To his surprise, the beardless man did not salute the bearded one.
The bearded stopped the other man and said “do you know its an offence not to salute a higher rank officer?”. To which the beardless responded: “I outrank you”. He added while dropping his shorts down “but I am in the secret service”.

Hope you got it and you liked it.
Apologies to Scout & Kalweb if it sounds like ‘boys jokes’.

Peace,

Well now y'all
No answers to my questions from the christian posters.
Now, Irfan, your article is good and has echoes in the interview by George Negus with Tariq Ramadan on Dateline. However, the question that really goes to the heart of this debate is the extent to which your views resonate in the Australian Muslim community. I make no judgements.

If, however, there are things that I, as a white anglo -(saxon/celtic) Australian can do to build bridges with the Australian Muslim community (of whatever drivation and descent), then I would like to know. How do I, in a practical way, engage with the Islamic community in Australia so as to make them feel welcome, valued, and accepted as belonging here? And, how will I know, besides your article, that the Islamic community in Australia value being Australian and contribute to Australian life? The answers to these questions are only hinted at in your article. I realise that few, if any speak for Islam in Australia or for non-Islamic Australians, in totality, but some more and more public indications might assuage some people here (unless, of course they are beyond reason).

odsoc

odsoc

I and many others (R0bert, Fellow Human, Reason) have tried many times to engage in meaningful dialogue with Christian posters. All I ever receive in return are personal insults or lecures on the error of not believing exactly as they do. This approach to non-christians has a lot in common with fundamentalist Islam. I guess that fundamentalism of any type is about the pathological desire to control and dictate to others.

I have asked many times to be treated with respect - am still waiting. I find the bullying attitude and the constant derision to be highly offensive. This is why R0bert turned to humour - because intelligent discussion appears to be impossible.

We really need to reach out to each other and communicate, such as Irfan and Fellow Human have been trying to do. All they receive is vitriol in return. If either of them even become remotely defensive - they cop further derision.

As R0bert said "The christain fundies are aliases for the same extremist who is trying to make christainity look bad by the appalling attitudes and lack of fairness, justice etc expressed in their posts."

One has to consider what these posters hope to gain by these strange tactics.

That Irfan has written a rational and well reasoned article flys over the heads of those whose goal is apparently to offend as many people as possible.

ODSOC

as I've often said.. 'bring the teaching of Christ to bear on our approach, and I'll rejoice'... and u have done so. Well done !

Martin also brings out an important point, about Christs stern words.

[44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.]

Its hard to know sometimes just where critics are coming from.
-Hiding from the call of God behind the 'bad Christians'.
-Others may simply feel the need to point out inconsistencies between the tone of posts and the teaching of Christ. (from their perch of perfection of course :)

lets take the important point from the verse above and reflect on that.

".. that you may be sons of your Father in heaven."

i.e. God, our heavenly Father, is just as concerned (if not more) about those not yet in His kingdom. hence the parable of the lost sheep.

The efforts in pointing out a perceived lack in our lives of 'your understanding' of how a Christian should be, might be better directed in 'being' that which you seek for us to be. Why not consider your own position b4 God, and ask "Where do I stand" ?

Let me emphasize, that the easiest thing in the world to do, is take some of Christs teaching, such as u did, and then contrast this with the actions of those who claim His name.

The hardest thing in the world to do, is live by those precepts of Christ 100% of the time. So, when you start doing so, give me a call :)

Perhaps.... just perhaps.. Jesus was explaining God's standard, by which we are judged, where we all fall short.. and underlining our need for a Saviour, where, by faith in Him, God then sees 'His' righteousness, rather than our own flaws ?

BD, "Others may simply feel the need to point out inconsistencies between the tone of posts and the teaching of Christ. (from their perch of perfection of course".

No "perch of perfection" required. Most of us are not in the business of claiming that
- we have "the answer"
- others have to follow our way/our gods way etc
- we are indwelt by a holy spirit of god

Rather we are in the business of living our lives as well as we are able with what we have, flaws and all. We are for the most part human beings who choose to take responsibility for our own choices and weaknesses.

We don't need to be perfect to see that the behaviour of many of the christain posters on this site invalidates their claims about their faith.

We are not claiming that we have found the ultimate answer but that does not require us to accept the claims of those who have settled for a clearly contradictory and flawed answer and who then insist on using that answer as the basis for much of their argument.

Believe what you want in private, but when you bring your beliefs and claims about your beliefs into public debate (especially in the context of bagging the beliefs of others) then you should expect those beliefs and the outworking of those beliefs in your posts to be critiqued. Especially so when the outworking of your beliefs leads to calls for harm to or discrimination against those who hold different beliefs or when you try and insist that your flawed belief system be the basis of laws which others are required to live by.

R0bert

RObert,

"We don't need to be perfect to see that the behaviour of many of the christain posters on this site invalidates their claims about their faith."

Can you please explain what is it that you mean by "claims about their faith"?

Do you mean that if we were really courteous and polite, you would consider joining our faith?

That to me is extremely hypocritical – that goes for Scout too – because if you are suggesting that nice dialogue is what you require to investigate and choose a faith you are not only kidding us but sadly yourself.

If it is nicety and humility that would make you tick – why don’t you join FH’s way of life? You have nothing bad to say about him – so maybe – using your logic – he must have the right answer you are looking for? Or are you looking?

If we tend to be “not to your liking” it is because these “faith” matters are of top importance not just in our lives but for the future of humanity.

One last thing – you contradict yourself by saying that you don't like to be judged, then in the same breath pronounce that Chritianity is for “…those who have settled for a clearly contradictory and flawed answer”

Get a grip. And try (harder) to see the trees from the forest.

Still no answers, just avoidance of the answers.
Coach
You say: "If it is nicety and humility that would make you tick – why don’t you join FH’s way of life? "

A journey through Paul's and Peter's letters seems to show them asking for exactly what you derisively attribute to Fellow_Humanist.

Is this a case of ... nah, it couldn't possibly be that a humanist was more christian than a christian, now could it?

Please note: I am not deriding christian beliefs, or principles, or faith. I am not claiming perfection or self-righteousness because, those same letters seem to say that in this life they are unattainable. And I am not judging anyone, simply asking some questions. ;)

I seem to find the need to show respect there too. And this is why I would like to know more abut Irfan's beliefs, to respect them, not to deride them.

Odsoc

odsoc, Fellow_Human is muslim and the target of an amazing amount of attack by a group of posters claiming to be christain. Whilst his choice of religion is not one I would make he does make a habit of conducting himself in these forums in a manner which brings credit rather than disrepute to himself and his faith.

coach, it's not just about niceness,you may have seen comments I made a while ago regarding Col who is often not "nice" but appears to try pretty hard to live by the values he claims for his own life. I have no desire to join any faith based on a idea of God but FH's approach to life and his respect for others is much more to my liking as someone I could live next door to than your own or that of many of your fellow posters.

As to your question about my becoming a christan if you all start being nice now - probably to late for that. Maybe if God moves through his church and exercises some authority to clean out the riff raff I might reconsider. I may not have rejected christainity in the first place if the evangelical christain church had not had so many people in it with attitudes as far from the teachings of Jesus as your own. Arrogant unreasonably rude christains do drive others from taking the christain faith seriously. You make a mokery of concepts like the fruit of the spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the renewing of the mind etc. The christain gospel does not appear to have ever really touched you where you live judging from your posts.

I don't particularly appreciate being judged and if others leave me alone I'll generally leave them to their own choices. If you assume the right to criticise my choices and the value of my life then expect your own choices and the lack of evidence that you live by the teachings you claim to be judged.

R0bert

Meredith,
Thanks, perhaps just a couple more.

All,

Whilst it's not surprising bashers like to label Christians as fundies, bad whatever... I certainly don't consider myself labelled as such here.

In a debate, you take a position and be challenged for your position and that's that. All those rubbish about bagging other's faith and beating around the bush.

It's about - Danish cartoons: Muslims in their own Dark Age

To me the issue is clearly Islam, not whether you have to be nice when talking about Islam.

For a start, my position is not even remotely a Christian position.

(1) I am not here as a Christian
I attack Islam as a non-Muslim foremost. Nothing to do with Christian at all. My writing would be similar even if I'm atheist or Buddhist. (My many relatives are Buddhists and they loath Islam.) In fact my PRIMARY driving force is none other than FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY. It's plain to see Islam is a threat (but still it appears some are blind to the fact).

(2) Even if you think I align with Christians, I'm NOT your typical christian as I rarely go to church, not prayed for years and do not consider to be in-dwelt by holy spirit. I'm a person of logical reasoning foremost and that has led me to Christianity doorstep. Christianity is mostly a knowledge thing for me.
But precisely because I'm truth/logic-bound (as opposed to spiritual or emotion based), I find my conviction actually stronger than some christians (like R0bert once were). Knowledge tells me individual's body's in fact the church. When I do go to a church (building), my conviction is a church is a place for upholding each others, not simply critising, attacking and then leave in disgust. There're all manners of personality in a church building. So I do not look for "speck in one's eye".

My purpose here has always been clear. Still my tough talks have been taken advantage by some not from "perch of perfection" but "perch of self-righteousness" rather, as an excuse and diversion to counter-attack others.

Hypocrites they are.

There are Christian posters to this website who are erudite and enthusiastic about debate. I just wish they were on this thread. Strange it is only the most reactionary types who continue to lambast those of a different faith or no faith at all.

Coincidence is it not, that the topic is about an excessive reaction by some members of a religion (Islam) to some dumb cartoons. I say coincidence because the extreme reaction of some members of a religion (Christianity) is just as excessive.

Extreme Christians versus extreme Muslims - pots & kettles.

Scout,

I don't normally address to you. Knowing the type of person you are....it'd just be a waste of time.

But in your posts:-

"...the most reactionary types..." ??
Most of those come here because they have something to say. Those who don't may have gone to Sunday picnic. Some here have strong views. This is a debate forum. What do you know?

"...coincidence...extreme reaction...is just as excessive."
You think people who write in to oppose stupid extreme reaction of the violent kind are just being extreme in their opposition? Give me a break. Are you a Muslim (or sympathiser) who's too chicken to admit it?

"Extreme Christians versus extreme Muslims"
No, it's non-Muslims against extreme Muslims. Also count in Atheists, Buddhists and ANYONE who values freedom and democracy especially anyone who recognises the danger of Islam. You certain belong to the other side or is too silly to know which side of the fence is which.

I think you'd better show some ability to think before someone lambasts what's left of your little brain. Surely there ain't going to be no sympathy from me.

GZ Tan, thanks for the insights in the earlier post regarding your position. If you are not really a christain fundy but just happen to share their platform on hatred towards Islam then I apologise for lumping you in with them on the "fundy" thing. Some of your posts have suggested that a significant part of your reasons for your anti-muslim stance come from your spiritual worldview.

In my own case (and I think Scouts) we have a strong adversion to any extremist groups seeking to impose their faith or rules as to how we should live on those who don't share that faith.

I agree that extremist muslims are a threat to freedom and democracy but right now I believe that the rise of extremist christainity is a far bigger threat to freedom and democracy in Australia. Basically a numbers, organisation and level of influence thing.

You appear to be well aware that Christains come in a variety of flavours and approaches to their faith, I don't see why you can't accept that possibility for muslims as well. Dispite my current strong distaste for the christain church and gospel I know some christains who are in my view really good people. Their God allows humans free choice in how they live their lives so they don't see any reason to impose where their God chooses not to. They are passionate about their faith but don't see the need to try and force others to live by christian standards.

My impression of FH and Irfan is that they are something like the muslim equivalent of those type of christians. Nothing you have posted so far has given me any reason to think otherwise.

I believe that continual attacks on moderates of any persuasion is likely to increase the likelyhood of them becoming more extremist. I want FH, Irfan and others engaged in dialog with those who don't share their faith. I want them to know they are free to practice their faith as long as they leave the rest of us free to live by our own beliefs.

R0bert

what about George Bernard Shaw, Lamar Tine and many other great scholars, writers and intellectuals of the West.
(Sir George Bernard Shaw in 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.

* "If any religion had the chance of ruling over England, nay Europe within the next hundred years, it could be Islam."
* I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion, which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence,
which can make itself appeal to every age.
* I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Savior of Humanity." "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness:
* I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.”
He was by far the most remarkable man that ever set foot on this earth.
* He preached a religion, founded a state, built a nation, laid down a moral code, initiated numerous social and political reforms
* He established a powerful and dynamic society to practice and represent his teachings and completely revolutionized the worlds of human thought and behavior for all times to come

Robert
Thankyou for the clarification, but the comment gets stranger: a humanist being more christian than a christian is one thing, but a muslim!

As for GZ Tan's comments, it does not seem reasonable to judge the many by the actions of a few. Silence does not always mean assent in States where one can be persecuted for a subtle difference of theology or political belief. It often means people put their heads down and get on with life trying not to be noticed, making excuses for not being at rallies etc. I know very few muslims myself, but all of the ones I do know are appalled at the reaction to the cartoons and disappointed at the lack of repect in publishing the cartoons.

It is one thing to blow yourself up in the path of enemy tanks (according to some, the origin of suicide bombing), it is another to do it in trains, restaurants, and other public places of countries with whom one is not at war. However, the suicide bombers remain the few, not the many. Irfan, Tariq Ramadan and others speak more cogently and coherently to me of Islam than suicide bombers: for me they bring more respect to The Prophet than those who stain his name with innocent blood.

Odsoc

That reminds me of an interview with Germans after the war about whether they should have known what kind of person Hitler was.

One of them said that her circle of friends and family used to say "if only Hitler knew what the SA were doing to the Jews, and to other minorities he would stop it"

People didn't want to know, they didn't really, they wanted to believe Hitler was their saviour. It was too costly too much work to find out.

The simple solution to our troubles is to seperate Islam from current terrorism. History isn't kind to this approach. Nor is theological scrutiny of Islam.

The simple solution exclaims "A peaceful religion is being hijacked!" But that comes from the mouths mostly of those who know very little about religion or about Islam.

The easiest thing to say in our society is - we must prevent Islamophobia and support moderate Muslims. But the real Islamophobia is the fear of finding out what Islam really means, to not dare even to look for fear of what one might find. Moderate Muslims too often are like this

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/krauthammer021006.php3

when more of them should be like this

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Author/Sina.htm

My dhimmitude will be much easier than atheists and other non-believers'. Malik shows us how many Muslims really do feel, Islam is better than what the Europeans have now "Look even Wells and Shaw say so"! Malik has uncovered what moderate Muslims really believe.

There's no room for the secular in Islam, everything right down to how one should go to the toilet has to have an Islamic form.Non-religious people do not know what we're dealing with.

Stock standard PC phrases will not propel us into reality no matter how hard we wish.

We are reliant on Muslims to take a very hard look at Islam and help their fellow Australians to defend themselves against its aggressive political intentions.

The secular atheocracies developed in Europe will be the first to go, maybe its not such a bad thing *shrug* they're probably worse than Mohammedenism.

First motion was to ask, “If gods divided people to kill each other, are they absolute to believe in and be followed by?” but personal experience allows suggestion that, anyway, something very biological underlies problems where simple discrimination on the tribe’s level is it.

Maybe, decreasing influence of something imaginary (“sacred skies and cows”) and real (xenophobia towards minorities) while simultaneously increasing one-nation proudness by changing a notion of one-nation working environment to a multinational Australian job market ought to sustain more liveable and monolith society of a sovereign country rather than a continuingly segregated multicultural conglomerate of semi-dependant banana-appendix of an overseas kingdom.

GZ Tan,

The cartoons were published last year and most Muslims had minor reaction which included protest march in major cities and some called for boycott.

The sudden recent violence attacking embassies is nothing more of right wing in our camp inflaming the naives of the Muslim world. The action was both condemned and criminalised.

If you travelled in Africa, Middle East or Eastern Europe, you will know that 'religious identity' is not exclusive to Muslims.
I can think of a dozen of cities where a T-Shirt mocking Jesus or even a local church priest can cause you serious injury or death.
Even a well travelled missionary like Boaz can confirm the above.

Boazy, what happens to a guy wearing a T-Shirt mocking a priest in Assiut, Lagos or Nairobi? (I will exclude Eastern Europe for now).

islamists can't handle modernity...
im the modern world u dont boycott, kill and riot over a cartoon.Islams violent standover tactics are not welcome

The Modern world is not willing to go backwards over some kooky religious beleif.

In the modern world if you don't like cartoons of your gurus u dont buy or draw them.

Islam has to get used to it, its just a cartoon lol like they really need to get a grip.

Fellow_Human,

"The sudden recent violence attacking embassies is nothing more of right wing in our camp inflaming the naives of the Muslim world. The action was both condemned and criminalised."

Can you tell us who "condemned" and "criminilised" the (radical) revolts?

Are these the same people who have "condemned" and "criminilised" the decapitation of the chistian school girls in Indonesia, the burning of churches in Sydney's west (to name just two)?

As for t-shirts in the Middle East I'm not so sure it depends which country I suppose. They all differ greatly depending on their degree of modernity and the type of political regime.

In Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, for example, one can still wear a cross without being spat on or abused or more...

Some other parts like Saudi Arabia - zero tolerance to anything non-muslim applies. Or this does not count for your version of islam being Wahhabi central?

Religious identity is everything in the Middle East. Mutual respect of each others Religion is nothing but a matter of survival and maintaining a very fragile and almost artificial 'peace'.

Coach,

"Can you tell us who "condemned" and "criminilised" the (radical) revolts?"

Most newsites (public and private websites) I visited made a clear distinction that the cartoons does not justify vandalism or threatening innocent people lives. The BBC quoted many of these press releases & articles.

Saudi is a unique case which mixes politics & religion. According to amnesty many people are persecuted there whether Muslims or non-Muslims.

"Religious identity is everything in the Middle East. Mutual respect of each others Religion is nothing but a matter of survival and maintaining a very fragile and almost artificial 'peace'".

Agree to an extend, religious identity 'became' everything in the Middle East in the last 3 decades for some reason. It was never like this.

BLACK ARCHBISHOP SLAMS MULTICULTURALISM AND URGES BRITONS TO BE PROUD OF THEIR HISTORY
Britain's first black archbishop has launched a forceful attack on multiculturalism which, he argues, has denied English people the right to celebrate their history and national identity.

Soon-to-be Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, who was a judge in Uganda, told the UK Times: "Multiculturalism has seemed to imply, wrongly for me, that we should allow other cultures to express themselves but not let the majority culture at all tell us its glories, its struggles, its joys and its pains."

"I speak as a foreigner," he said. "The English are somehow embarrassed about some of the good things they have done. They have done some terrible things, but not all the empire was a bad idea. Because the empire has gone there is almost the sense in which there is not a big idea that drives this nation." He also warned that England would only experience further political extremism if it failed to reconnect with its roots.

"When you ask a lot of people in this country, 'What is English culture?' they are very vague. It is a culture that whether we like it or not has given us parliamentary democracy. It is the mother of it. It is the mother of arguing that if you want a change of government, you vote them in or you vote them out."

Source: Breaking Christian News
I say; Same here in OZ, the UK is the most Islamised nation in the world,most violence ,hatred,and terror but still no apologies .
A letter in today's West Australian says," stop them NOW," no more Islam,& get the muslims to swear on the Koran that they will never cause trouble again.The author He says they won't.

60 minutes last night was a sham and no good came from it as muslims will call them selves Ozzies ,but will defend their muslim ways which are violence worldwide, so open the eyes on Australia before too.Itlate, is all rage,rage,rage and more rage, from these unrepentant clones of a world gone mad with hate and terror.

Thanks Irfan for being a voice of moderation here.

Sadly there are a few crazies on the other side of the fence also, and they don't have the same excuses as the Pakistanis

Fellow_Human,

THINK of dozen cities where christians MAY BE violent if mocked? Ha.ha.ha...

Even atheists KNOW that if they wear a T-shirt mocking Mohammed, they'd be dead-meat in ALL cities, towns and villages in ANY Islamic country (including secular ones). If any non-Muslim dares sheltering them, ALL would be killed also. They'd be attacked even in SYDNEY!!

What was in your mind when first heard about decapitation of christian school girls in Indonesia? Or was that not on your radar?

R0bert,

You've a sense of integrity. Thanks!

My spiritual worldview? Knowledge of Christianity does boosts insight which non-christians lack eg. most atheists think Christianity's bad like Islam and Buddhists have no clue.

I cannot emphasize enough Islam is UNIQUELY DANGEROUS because it's thoroughly infringing. Unlike other political system (such as Communism), Islam is ONE-WAY STREET, ie. NO TURNING BACK once a country becomes Islamic.

Unfortunately Islam cannot be moderated. Because (unlike other faith) Islam provides low-level personal instructions on how to live.

Whenever there's a rule, there'd be a perceived need to comply with that rule and an INEVITABLE enforcement of compliance. In Islam, the compliance is thorough- from individual, family right up to world level.

Therefore, Islam is in fact a very CARNAL religion (as opposed to spiritual).

In a Muslim family, father would instruct his son to pray 5 times a day while mother persuade daughters to don Islamic clothes. Both ensure halal food is served, explain why television is bad and expect their many children-in-laws to all be Muslims.

At community level, one's prayer attendance in local mosque is expected. Mavericks challenged with impunity, dobbed in by peers and students stripped off their overseas scholarships. Those dare to renounce the faith are hounded out of town (if they're lucky) or be killed for dishonour.

At state level, governments enshrine laws to punish non-Muslims who preach to Muslims. Build mosques, censor television, devise laws to close down pig farms (Islam's anti-pigs) while using non-Muslim colleagues as facades to project a semblance of religious tolerance. Every election result is the same...same Muslim faces...same idiocy.

to continue...

continue...

Then at world-level, staggering number of Islamic states with their twisted sense of peace and tolerance. Sworn brotherhood solidarity globally. Hope for destruction of the west and that another one of them may acquire the ultimate nuclear arsenal.

Goodness gracious, what a hole some Muslims must live in, from cradle to grave, family room to prayer room in international airports. It's Islam.. Islam... and more Islam... the narrow-mindedness, falsehood and utter hypocrisy.

Once they become the majority, you just put up and shutup. Perhaps this is where the moderates Muslims come in... to sooth your angst (which now you dare not even show as you're unsure whether those moderates will dob you in). Perhaps one day you decide to live a lie - Join them if you cannot beat them. Just like that Indonesian Chinese man who looked every bit a Muslim- kept a long beard, don a turban and a white robe. Not only did he surrendered his oriental heritage, he also sold out his children's free-will and placed them in the clutch of Islam which they could not get out of- They all must became Muslims. Their off-springs too.

So match on, one-fifth of narrow-minded world population on a broad ONE-WAY street to H... ( Did I hear the road to Heaven is narrow and few goes there? )

Your comment about FH and Irfan is fair to some extend:-
1. Moderates being moderates are actually quite 'useless', they will NOT make a real difference in Islam.
2. Freedom & democracy are NOT even Islamic precepts. So no Muslim can be counted on to save freedom and democracy, NONE. (But of course the moderates may join the ride.)

Excluding those who don't even understand the meaning of freedom & democracy... in reality freedom and democracy rest on the shoulder of a VERY SMALL MINORITY !!

May the truth sets us free.

MUSLIM WORLD REACTS CALMLY TO DANISH CARTOONS.

Those people who have the intelligence to see the irony in that particular statement are the ones who can see through the shreikings of the politically exquisite that no group must ever be stereotyped.

If there is one factor in particular that characterises the average Muslim, it is that they all have an immature anger management problem. It is reasonable to deduce that such people who are passionately violent because they possess such little self control have little to offer advanced societies. Western societies already have plenty of people just like them who occupy the bottom rung of our society, and we most definitely do not need any more of them. it is small wonder then that every Muslim country in the world that dies not have a bunch of overseas Chinese running the economy is an economic basket case.

The difference in attitudes of Western society and Islam is similar to the difference in attitudes between Mosman and Moe.

To all of you trendies who are now going into bat for the Islamofascists, I double dog dare you to walk down the street with a "I hate Islam" t-shirt on.

Cmon, comrades. Your perfidious ilk never rests when it comes top tweaking the noses of Western civilisation, let's se you do it with your new Muslim friends.

GZ Tan,

“Islam cannot be moderated because it provides low-level personal instructions on how to live”

Not sure what does that mean; Islam (ie the Quran) offers a framework of morals and ethics. Everything else is a personal choice.

You missed my point above. I wanted to illustrate that you are confusing cultural influences with religion: Christians in the West have a different set of behaviour than Christians in the East. The same scenario is correct for Muslims: cultural influences vary greatly that’s why American and Japanese Muslims chose a march in protest for example.

Culture is not the only factor but education, social and economical factors come into play.
I play soccer with a couple of dozens of Muslims and non-Muslims from different backgrounds, the opinions always varies.

To use a ‘one size fits all Muslims’ is at best misleading.

Peace,

Generalising about any group of people as large and as inherently diverse as Muslims is pretty poor.

If I judged all Christians by the abusive posts I have received on OLO I would be very wrong indeed.

I have many good friends who are Christian, Muslim, atheist and all permutations between.

I dispair at the prejudice revealed here at OLO and I rejoice at the calm and reason displayed by posters such as R0bert and Fellow Human.

However,

Peace

And

In all things, balance.

All,

Just info.

Commenting on an American preacher's book, in yesterday Herald Sun Mr N.Grey asserts that Christianity rules the world upon millennia and all the best –democratic elections of council majors and compass inclusively- is a Christian innovation

Fellow_Human,

You simply cannot see the 'light'. Not sure whether you became a Muslim due to the way you think, or becoming a Muslim adversely affects your ability to reason.

1.. If "personal choice" in Islam is true in a pure sense, then there may not be problems. But it's precisely a fact that Islam is thoroughly infringing that you're lying if you think Islam encourages a "personal choice".

2.. If cultures are able to influence Islam, then there may not be a problem long run. But precisely the REVERSE is true. In fact Islam influences cultures and completely overwhelms some, if unchecked.

3.. Although vile practice likes 'honour' killing may be a tribalism thing. Due to it's carnal nature, Islam not only FAILS to eradicate such practices, but actually THRIVES in cultures that carry such evil practices.

4.. American and Japanese Muslims chose protest march (instead of violence) prove two points:
(i) Rule-of-laws must be strong and prevail over Muslims sensitivity
(ii) Muslims population must NOT be allowed to increase unchecked

5.. There was no protest at all in Singapore even though there're many Muslims there. Why? Not because of culture, education, social and economic factors at all. It's simply because any protest would be immediately squashed.

6.. True that opinions always vary between people from different backgrounds. But those are mostly lesser 'fringe' issues. When it comes to 'serious' core issues, then Muslims are inherently coherent and unitied, such as Muslims perception of justice, attitudes towards democracy, women and Jews.

You always consciously or sub-consciously sidestep questions and issues put to you (eg. decapitation of christian school girls in Indonesia). This is because in your heart of heart you are NOT able to agree WITHOUT RESERVATION that those are Muslims evil-doings. There is always this rationalization in your mind.... perhaps there was a reason, an excuse, may be there was a provocation...etc... You simply cannot face the fact that Islam is where some evils had their roots.

Therefore it's clear even a dialogue with a 'moderate' Muslim is a LOST CAUSE. The overall situation must be dire.

Yesterday the New York Times featured the front page of the paper after Malcolm X was assassinated on 21 Feb 1965.

It makes for interesting reading in the debate over free will and determinism within Islam. It reads like nothing much has changed even after 41 years. The convert still fears for their life if they should change their mind.

It seems unfathomable to me how any god would enjoy or excuse civil violence done in their name yet it seems to be a long tradition or at least a long held cultural modus operandi to menace the individual physically for their spiritual salvation.

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/20060221.html?th&emc=th

I agree that violence is not the way to go about it, but what else can you do when the whole world turns it back on you and your beliefs? the only way they can get their point across is by anger and protesting.

Mr. Coach i do not agree with anyone saying that Islam is false, because the only holy book that has not been changed and will never be changed doesn't matter how you try, you will never be able to change the Holy Qur'an. I believe that if any of you go and read the first bible ever written you will find some thing written about messenger Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him).

The reason why there is nothing about Messenger Prophet Mohammed in a bible is because it was changed, because the people that changed it could not except that Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) came from the Abrabs.

Honestly to have some one to degrade Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) is really sick, To say that ALLAH (swt) is not GOD then you are wrong because ALLAH translated to english means that.

What satisfaction do people get out of degrading ISLAM? does it make you feel better with in yourself? I also believe that anyone that is Muslim and is not upset about what they had done to Prophet Mohammed is not good and do not believe in their Religion.

In Islam we are the only religion that believes that jesus is a prophet/ messenger of GOD and we also believe that the mircles he performed are from god and that does not make jesus god. we also believe that jesus (peace be upon him) did nothing bad e.g drank alchole.

st_alk, are athiesm or agnosticism false? Is the christian evangelical gospel false? If you say either is false you are doing no different to someone who says that Islam is false.

We all choose to reject beliefs which others base their lives on, it is just how things work. We can choose to accept that others make different choices or we can try and force others to our own beliefs.

Much easier if you accept that just as you disagree with the beliefs of others so to they can disagree with your beliefs.

Some muslims might not enjoy unflattering portrayals of your prophet but are realistic enough to know that they can be true to their faith without trying to force others to believe the same.

The kind of thinking that says that any muslim who is not upset by words and cartoons about your prophet is not good and not true to their religion is the kind of thinking so loved by those who hate Islam. Rather those who use their faith as an excuse to war on those who believe differently are not good and don't believe in their religion. If your religion has real meaning to you let it be shown by the kind of life you live rather than by your vigor in defending affronts to that religion.

R0bert

robert i am sorry if you did not understand what i was saying, what i was saying that their are different bibles and they all say something different in them i know this because i studied different religions before converting, all i was saying that in any country in the world you will not find a different hadieth in our holy book. I did not say christians are false if i said that then i don't believe in my religion, because believe it or not Islam came from the base of Jewish and christian laws, we just have some additional laws in our book, what we are allowed to do and what we are not.
So once again i am sorry if you misunderstood me but what i meant was totally different to what you think and i should of explained better.

st_alk (welcome to OLO) and R0bert - thank you for the interesting dialogue.

St_alk - I can understand your frustration - many of the aspersions cast towards Islam are cast out of fear and ignorance. It is helpful to have a Muslim explain Islam. It is ironic that many here who claim that Islam is "wicked" do not understand where Islam has its roots (the same as Judaism and Christianity). You will need to walk on eggshells within this forum - the anti-muslims will try to fault you no matter what you say - if they detect any defensiveness they will condemn you for it. They are doing the work of terrorists.

However, please do not let them deter you we need all the information and enlightenment we can get in order to understand.

In all things, balance.

st_alk, sorry I missed the welcome in my post. Also sorry if I have misunderstood what you were trying to say in your post. I look forward to having another muslim viewpoint in these forums.

I hope that your skin is thick enough to cope with the constant attacks which are likely to come from a small number of posters with fairly extreme views about Islam. If you are able to cope with that stuff and choose to treat the comments as a means to gain understanding you might find it fun and occasionally informative.

Scout, nicely said.

R0bert

st_alk,

Welcome to OLO – Your frustration is a very common response from muslims when they see the truth.

You have been duped into believing that islam is a religion of God.

You say you have studied religions (how and where?) before converting (from what?) –

The bible has been changed – I ask you why?

The Qur’an has been changed by Mohammad many times. Initial manuscripts were burnt when it was printed years after his death.

The Qur'an both revolves and evolves around Mohammad. He used Allah (a fictitious god) to substanciate his claims.

Allah cannot be the God of the bible - different character, laws, revelations…

Mohammad was a revolutionary, a conquerer - so was Napoleon and Alexander. Wanting to abolish idolatry in Mecca, he declared himself a prophet (no proof). And NO he was never mentioned in the bible, this is another lie.

When he encountered opposition, first from the Meccans, then from Jews and Christians in Madinah, he changed his approach from peaceful to satanic… until he died.

I am NOT degrading islam but simply stating facts.

The Qur’an confirms the Torah and Injil – DOES IT?
THe Injil (NT) says that Jesus is GOD incarnate - Q says He's not. Injil says Jesus is the last revelation from God - Mohammad says not so...

The Qur’an mentions prophets like Abraham, Moses, but the stories are distorted and therefore fake. How can God reveals two different accounts first to the Jews and Christians then change the stories to suit Mohammad and his invented religion?

Jesus is mentioned in the Qur’an as a prophet, but He is MUCH more than that. And by the way He drank alcohol because God never said it is ‘haram’ to drink, Mohammad decided it was so after some muslims arrived drunk at a meeting (check it out). New laws on the run.

Mohammad (not Allah) changed the kiblah from facing El-quds (Jerusalem) to Mecca in anger after the Jews and Christians exposed him as a fraud (not a true prophet).

I could go on...

st_alk

Please ignore Coach - he lives in a world where his truth is the only truth. As a result he is very lonely and one should feel sorry for him.

He doesn't understand the common basis for Islam, Judaism and Christianity. Better to just let him live with his delusions - he is happier that way.

He is just trying to deliberately goad you so that he can then feel justified in denigrating you.

Even I know that Allah simply means God. I follow no formal religion believing it to be a very personal ideology. But I respect you and Coach to believe as you will - just not to force your doctrine upon others.

In all things, balance.

Coachy boy,

Once again caught red handed & out of depth on theology:

One comment on your NT "Jesus is God".

- Why would Jesus pbuh when asked about judgement day claims 'only the father knows'? (ie confirms is a different/ lesser being).
- Why would Jesus comfirm the Moses commandments (including explicitly "God is One").
- Why would Jesus on the cross say Elahi, lema shabaktani (exact meaning translation "God, why have you deserted me"?).
- If it was clearly mentioned, why the wait till 325 AD to bring the theory (Jesus is divine) then another 56 years to claim the Holy spirit too is God compelting the Trinity in 381 AD?
- Why is your theology out of sync with all previous prophets on the first commandments and following prophets?

There is a good old proverb about glass house and not thrwoing stones...something like that...

Peace,

Fellow_Human,

We've been through that many times.

You have just confirmed that that Qur'an is a different book if it claims that Jesus is not God.

The "trinity" is in all the bible ONLY if you bothered to read it for yourself instead of relying on the false teachings of your "holy" book.

You are not scoring any points with our audience (except maybe for the spiritually challenged muslim simpathisers Scout and RObert).

You know the Q is wrong but you have to cultivate the lies because it says that it all came from Allah and the copy of it is in haeven. If that was true why did it take 22 years for Allah to dictate it to Mo. Wouldn't be easier if he gave him the hard copy straight away like Moses.

Go back and re-read my last post and if you find any false statement about YOUR religion... we'll talk.

And a topic turned no where.

A little less than bored with the idiocies in this thread today, so I’ll stir things a little..

Coach
“You have just confirmed that that Qur'an is a different book if it claims that Jesus is not God.

The "trinity" is in all the bible ONLY if you bothered to read it for yourself instead of relying on the false teachings of your "holy" book”

FH point was that ‘the Trinity’ was written into the bible some time after it’s first compilation. And it has been repeatedly proven that the current bible is not the one originally compiled. So, if you hold your bible in your hand – you are holding a rewrite of a book compiled over 1500 years ago – unless you have a 1500 year old puplication?

“You know the Q is wrong but you have to cultivate the lies because it says that it all came from Allah and the copy of it is in haeven. If that was true why did it take 22 years for Allah to dictate it to Mo. Wouldn't be easier if he gave him the hard copy straight away like Moses.”

Perhaps the same can be said for you and your bible?

GT Tan
“4.. American and Japanese Muslims chose protest march (instead of violence) prove two points:
(i) Rule-of-laws must be strong and prevail over Muslims sensitivity
(ii) Muslims population must NOT be allowed to increase unchecked”

More to the point, does this not prove that culture can affect Islam?

(see “2.. If cultures are able to influence Islam, then there may not be a problem long run. But precisely the REVERSE is true. In fact Islam influences cultures and completely overwhelms some, if unchecked.”)

Hohum… bored again...

Reason,

So you want to play a little with the big boys now ?

>>FH point was that ‘the Trinity’ was written into the bible some time after it’s first compilation.<<

Pick up a "modern improved sanitised" bible and show me where the word "trinity" is mentioned.

Then while you are there:

Show me which passage(s) has been changed from the original text, and to what purpose - if you please - was such change done?

>>And it has been repeatedly proven that the current bible is not the one originally compiled.<<

Coach,

Don't you seriousley think you are bad ambassador for your faith?
I mean, you, Boaz, Kaktuz, etc...don't you see who stupid and hypocritical you sound?

There are beautiful christians on these forums and practising what their faith preaches. Even people like Philo I can dialogue with.

I don't know how does it look for non-muslims, but for me even when a poster addresses me with a question, you but in spewing about Islam then speel the 'God is Love' thingy and sign off!

You proved to be bad on theology, communication, human values and even lack basic manners.

Christians I know and grew up with practice "God Is Love", you seem to practice "MY God is Live" or "God is Love and you are wrong".

Weird stuff..

Fellow_Human,

"Jesus is God" does bother you, doesn't it?

There's no need to split hair. It's said of Jesus: "To know him was to know God" and "to see him was to see God".

In fact seeing God through Jesus is very essential, in view of Islam's deception.

Although the word Allah means 'God', we know it's a deception because Muslims do not see God through Jesus. So Allah is actually a different beast.

Do you think "God is One" means God cannot manifest in different forms and present as different identities? If so, I think you are making false assumption about the nature of spirit and place a limitation on God.

I can imagine one fine day God may even decide to create another Earth (call it Earth_2). Instead of sending Jesus, He himself may incarnate as Jesus_2. 'Mankinds' on Earth_2 shall then see God through Jesus_2 instead of Jesus. Then we will have God (the father), Jesus, Jesus_2, HolySpirit, HolySpirit_2, all being spirit of God in different roles. Time to upgrade the concept of 'trinity', I guess. But does it matter?

It took British Holocaust denier David Irving many years to make a U-turn about his claim. So why is it a surprise (to you) that it took many years for people to come to a conclusion about Jesus's divinity?

Truth will be truth. Some people take a lot longer than others to see the truth, that's all.
.

Reason,

Bravo... your 'prowess' to think and REASON indeed... and put a foot in your mouth the moment you boast.

I said: "2.. If cultures are able to INFLUENCE Islam...", not whether culture can AFFECT Islam.
You don't have a problem seeing the difference, or do you?

Let me re-phrase, a 'culture' with strong law enforcement (like Singapore) would quickly throw your violent lots in jail. But even in jail, those will steadfastly adhere to the misguided Islamic thinkings, uninfluenced.

Does this explain a bit better why American and Japanese Muslims chose protest march (instead of violence)?

GZ Tan,

"Jesus is God" does bother you, doesn't it?

Nope, its not my business. In fact, The Christian fundies on OLO forums proved the opposite of your statement is correct: Muslims believeing in Jesus as a prophet and not as a God is more offending than someone who doesn't believe in Jesus at all; which is mind blowing perversion.

Anybody can worship or make a God out of anything they like as long as they don't harm anybody else. This is what bothers me with islamists, Christian Taliban or any criminal movement disguised behind religion.

Peace,

Fellow_Human,

The oposit of "Love" is "Apathy" not 'Hate" - please know that I don't hate you and I do love you - that's why you are a burden to me.

You said above:

1. "Muslims believeing in Jesus as a prophet and not as a God is more offending than someone who doesn't believe in Jesus at all; which is mind blowing perversion."

The real perversion FH is knowing who Jesus truly is and deliberately making him something he is not to suit your plans. I don't expect you to respond to this because you are so brainwashed by what your Qur'an says that you cannot believe any other notion of reality. But feel free to ponder on it.

2. "Anybody can worship or make a God out of anything they like as long as they don't harm anybody else."

Isn't that what Mohammad has done? Make up a supreme Idol out of the other 360 odd idols he worshipped?

Unfortunately according to your teachings, Allah is the supreme god (Allahu Akbar = Allah is bigger than other gods) and the rest of the world better believe it or else submit as second and third class citizens or simply killed. It's all in your Qur'an.

What you cannot get is that the rest of the world is watching and reading and interpreting your false teachings of a god that has no resemblance to the real Jehovah of the real people of the book: The Jews.

But continue with your lies and deceptions as you wish, Islam is dead but does'nt want to admit it. A 100,000 mosques in Egypt with 100,000 imams all fighting for a piece of the action...complete mayhem!

By the way I truly enjoyed the debates in Bankstown (the one you denied took place) once again the same distortions and lies...

Coach,

My first posting on this forums have the same context as the last: freedom of worship, go worship anything you like as long as you are not hateful/ harmful to others.

PS: On the debate thing, I actually called the association you referred to and they confirmed they have never initiated anything like that and there was no reference on their website. So far you are the only person who promoted and disclosed of these sessions time, venues, and prices.

PS: Religious debates are for people not certain what to believe. You are past that and 'Islam is dead anyway'.

One correction, you don't love Muslims or others, you are just confused between loving people (for who they are and what they are) and 'loving to convert them'.

“People not certain what to believe”…

In Australian values Costello-aired, perhaps

The nIV Bible is distorted translation and many more are too,Gail Riplinger spent 6 years researching bibles and came up with King James at 99.95% correct NIV has much missing just as the many versions of Koran depends on who wrote the latest version.

I almost feel sorry for the young gullible ,conned,lied to muslims who want to blow themselves to pieces with other pigs and gentiles as they call us ,so as to get to heaven for sexual satisfaction with the promised 70 virgins waiting for sex.

What a con,Jesus Christ, Son of God, and a prophet of Islam cannot lie He said there is no sex in Heaven no marriage and Christians will be a angels (spirits ) who don't need sex.

Mormons are on the same lustful sex drive as well as they are told by their prophet,they will be flat out making spiritual babies thru sex another con of fleshy desires of man,not God.
What about the female Muslims blowing themselves up?

No mention of their reward s.

These muslim people are so poor,unemployed,bored and no hope in life that they believe a lie,the only hope with this press button religion (down boys ) (up boys ) five times a day,demanded by their imams and mullahs is sex when you die.
Well, they will be shocked , as they end up in hell ,because God never changes He is not a man that He can lie .

Bible says ,"Jesus same yesterday,today and forever,He is The Word and His Word cannot pass away He is The Word , He lives today ,and is coming back AGAIN FOR HIS FOLLOWERS SOON.
So you gullible controlled muslims repent (turn away from) lies ,sin and false gods stop idolising mohammed and accept Christ today.He loves you.

Why follow a false god when you can have the real God ? In the beginnig was the Word the Word was God and the Word is God.John Ch 1v1

MichaelK,

P Costello comment was logical and fair. Will be great if he addresses the Mosque-teers on these forums to accept Australian values (BD, Kaktuz, Coach, Dobodan, etc..)

It is completely fair on terms as I understand migration: what is a point for coming somewhere if not new life backed with existing professionalism?

However, it is absolutely a m b i g u o u s as near any criteria imposed in this country’s environment.

The truth is that Islam has done a terrible dishonour to Australia after the way we have welcomed them with open arms, wanting two laws in Australia , ours and their sharia laws. They are lawless in their desert nations,and Allah rewards their cowardice.

The suicide bombers and terrorist muslims are only cowards really when you take a look at whom they kill undercover,not openly like kids,women,men,their own people as well as others.

We don't want them here,as they try to manipulate our government,with cries of "racist",I viewed the headless bodies of 3 lovely teenage girls , all Christians ,who were beheaded on their way to a Christian school in Indonesia on a website a few days ago ,I cried.

Then a report came thru that Indonesian muslism militants terrorised a Sunday Scool full of liitle kids on Sunday with terror.

Then another report on Muslims in Nigeria on the weekend killed Christians by filling tyres with petrol and putting them over Christians and lighting them.

Then another of 3 Indonesian women jailed for 3 years because they were suspected of teaching about Jesus in a school.

The Christians started retaliating and doing back to what the muslims did to them many of both sides died.
So,when does it end?

Come Lord Jesus ,Come!

PS website below give 45 reasons to consider about what Islam is .

http://www.chick.com/information/religions/islam/muslimissues.asp

British Leader Confronts "Clash of Civilizations" Danger
News Staff / Teresa Neumann Reporting (Feb 28, 2006)

"We have one set of laws...if you want to have laws decided in another way, you have to live somewhere else."

Sir Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Commission for Racial Equality in Britai n, has publicly stated that Muslims in Britain must accept that British values include a commitment to freedom of speech, even at the expense of offending some people.

Addressing the current controversy over gay marriage in the UK, Sir Trevor pointed out that non-Muslims must also accept the right of imams to denounce homosexuality in a way that many would find offensive. "One point of Britishness is that people can say what they like about the way we should live, however absurd, however unpopular it is," said Phillips.

Sir Trevor also pointedly rejected the idea of Sharia --the implementation of Islamic Law into government and society -- for Muslims. "We have one set of laws, and that's the end of the story. Anybody who lives here has to accept that. If you want to have laws decided in another way, you have to live somewhere else."

More...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-2060276,00.html

Just got this off of website above which lines up with what I wrote above

Aziliz,

No one needs to go back and reads your old posts because you are repeating yourself in any case, copying and pasting the same old rants. Read one and you read them all.

There is NO point in producing a never ending list of atrocities if you can't even tell why things are the ways they are.

So stop your ranting for a moment. Here's something to consider:

First would you agree with me that everyone is quite unique in one's own way? It's like this unique set of 'genetic codes' in us which influences how we think and do things differently.

Now a simple question for you - Is there a set of 'genetic codes' somewhere, the underlying factor of a steering force which caused the French and British to do what they did, one that seduced Winston Churchill into 'gasing' the Kurds, caused British/US to manipulate the Middle East and to torture Iraqis in Abu Graib.. etc...etc...?

If so, what is it and where is it?

GZ Tan is trying to find a "genetic code", for the atrocities handed out by Muslims and blaming Winston Churchill and others for killing in the past.

There is no genetic code mate ,it is just evil in man especially and explosivelly in Muslims psyche'no matter what country it is in ,they are raging non stop evey day on TV we see Muslims killing,destroying and stealing .

The bible tells us thet Jesus came to give us LIFE and give it more abundantly John 10v9-10,but the devil came to steal ,kill and destroy,a quote from Jesus Himself.
Sin is the cause and there is no other answer.

This demon religion, and it can only be from the demonic realm (Islam) has no love at all to anyone,even it's own people,as they do same as above daily in all nations including Iraq,they just won't stop.
I pray in Jesus name that Muslims eyes will be opened to Christ His Peace and His Love.

Jesus Christ is called "The Prince of Peace". Amen

Not much difference between over-believers regardless any faith they belong to.

Speaking of Sharia law in Australia – it will become reality in a few decades as continuing segregation and apartheid between ethnic groups to continue and hysterical calls on “respect to a majority’s values” to continue: there is a rule of law and a system serving on merits WHO is an offender rather than WHAT was an offence is itself calling for alterations.

Time to stop making idiots from “low-caste” co-patriots as Islamists are not fulls surely.

Anyway, one must not be a prist to know of upon a time flourishing then Jewish sect - Christianity round a globe…

Do you want to hear what a newsreader says in Arabic with English captions ,what Muslims are doing and should not do, then watch this by media player or other ways . She is as good as dead.Just copy and paste below website on your search engine.

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

dobbadan, Thanks

Wafa Sultan is a mighty hero !

TO DAVID you say the demolishion of the Holy Mosque in Jerusalem is inevitable, will happen, what makes you so sure , if you are so sure about your God , do us all a favour pray/call on him/her to come down to earth, appear on the steps of the Sydney Opera House to tell the world you and your mates are being truthfull. you know this will not happen , but at the same time you say God will come down to earth if you build a place for him/her to stay and to do that you need to start world war three. they say people who do mad things are insane , you would have to say too many mad people are deciding the future of this planet,
The creator of planet earth created all people to love each other, if he had wanted humanbeings to kill each other we would all have claws and fangs. another fact you are not prepared to accept, most of the migrants to Isreal have no genetic link with that land, they just belong to the same God Club, the last words of a dying Christ forgive them father they know not what they do, he was speaking out about human beings then ,now and in the future, we will only know what we do when we love our neighbour more than they love us, as long as people go back in time to dig up thousands of years of hatred, we will have no love, if all the people in the Middle East were to loose their memories over night , they would wake up not knowing which side of the fence they belonged, their memories would have to be reprogrammed so the could hate and kill each other again, maybe the reason for all this hatred is because the God being worshiped is in fact a antichrist disguised as the creator of the Universe, I am sorry but people who call for killing of their brothers and sisters have to be insane there is no other explanation, mangotreone1

Regarding
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

SECULARISM is a very core of a discussion between ethnic Arabs, and it eventuates a path to solution surely.

On this merits a Mr.P.Costello's non-discriminatory approach to minorities is wisely picked up by Prof.M.Lake:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/costello-ruse-echoes-white-australia-policy/2006/03/02/1141191789281.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

Hi Mango
interesting post of yours. I notice many references to love, and this encourages me.

Regarding the destruction of the Al Aksah Mosque, I don't have a special 'hot line' to heaven other than simple humble reliant prayer. But my statement is based on the overall understanding of the prophecies of the Old Testament(Ezekiel being one) and many others, plus the teaching of Jesus in the gospels and via John in Revelation.

I don't want to seem 'hateful' in saying that about the Mosque and Temple, I'm stating it as an issue of prophetic fulfillment that seems to me fairly certain. As to the 'when' I just cannot comment.

No matter how we think of such things, the important issue is that if/when it happens, it heralds the soon coming of Christ and the consumation of history and in this those of us who know the Lord and name Him as our Savior, can rejoice.

ROBERT.. my goodness.... what are you on about with this 'MM' post ?
were you serious ? or just tossing in some random thoughts.... get a grip mate :)

To all of you.
Let us remind ourselves that the passion we inject here, must never overshadow our concern for others on a personal basis. The battle of ideas can indeed by heated, and this is ok.
But I'm fairly sure deep down I/we regard each other with compassion and very much appreciate all contributions even the critical ones.

We are at least on the mine face of our existence, scraping away with shovel and pick, tearing away looking for the seams of gold which may lurk hidden among the rock and earth.

Lord.. touch each heart and life here, draw them/us to yourself.. open our ears to your still small voice in the midst of the storms.. amen.

If the atheists on this forum are so sure that God doesn't exist and Christianity is a farce and Bible untrue.
Then please explain why the Bible prophesies say in the last days that wars and rumors of wars will come ,that men's hearts will fail thru fear,that great knowledge will increase,that little old Israel will be the centre of all trouble ,that Muslims will try and over throw it and take Jerusalem. And the world.

That when we see these things look up as our redemption draws near.

That Jesus Christ will return after 7 years of terror and or tribulation on the earth that has never been seen before and that many will be beheaded for their faith in Christ.(Revelations)

That a New World Order and anti christ system will be enforced and all mankind will have to have a number 666 on hand or head to get food ,work,or live?

Please explain how this is a coincidence ?
Or do you believe the fairies are doing this?

The Danish Cartoons and faithfreedom.org

Quote: "If a few mild cartoons can make Muslims so angry, Sina's web-site deserves an atom bomb. But why is the Muslim world so uncharacteristically silent? Faithfreedom.org is read by more people than those cartoons were originally seen in Denmak."

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/Rajesh60305.htm
http://www.faithfreedom.org/