R0bert:

can I take that as a no then?

Lets agree to ignore the economics aspect, this is probably best left to the economists to argue over, they even believe they know what is going on.

The point I wish to make is summed up in Scout's post when she makes the claim about her life being enriched by having an Egyptian doctor etc.

This is a reformulation of the question by way of offering an answer, holding up that which is to be proved and claiming that it is the proof. It is not.

Having an Egyptian doctor doesn't prove the benefits of multiculturalism, it demonstrates the benefit of having a doctor. What is required is that she show that an Egyptian doctor makes things better than a local, see? This is what is required to make the claim of the reapable benefits of multiculturalism hold water.

This is a separate issue from the pragmatic immigration that occurs to fill skills shortages.

It seems an important point to me because it is the non negative that props up one side of the argument.

To simplify. If you are given to a xenophobic outlook then you can attack multiculturalism from the perspective of the sins that occur when undesirables are imported. To counter, those that are pro immigration can point to the detractors as bigots, racists nazis and so on. Both arguments work on highlighting the negative. Generally speaking however, the pro side claim to hold the moral high ground via their positive outlook, the benefits. Do you see. Hence it is reasonable to expect them justify this optimism.

Mr.P.Pig, don't take it as a no, rather take it that your experience, mindset etc have not equiped you to understand the benefits (or my attempt at explaining them). Try considering the benefits of something in your life which you consider important but which you can't identify an economic benefit for and which sometimes bring pain, most of us have them and often they are some of the best things in our lives. How would you explain that to someone who does not understand?

You will note that except in the case of some of those who fly their colours very high I generally stay away from the approach of calling detractors "bigots, racists nazis and so on" - there are only a few posters here who seem to clearly fit any of those categories. I rarely bother posting to the worst extremists, their seems little chance of a meaningful dialogue.

In case there is misunderstanding I'm not in favor of hands off approaches to those who come to this country and do the wrong thing - none of the benefits to society that I know of apply if the migrants stay within groupings of people of their own ethnic background or spend their time breaking our laws. We should be doing our best to deal with those situations. I'd like to seen some constructive migrant feedback to some of the suggestions BD and others have posted. Some of those suggestions seem great if we can ensure that adequate social support is available to new starters when it is most necessary.

I doubt that a persons origins are an adequate test of the kind of person thay are. Those who choose to leave the land of their birth are hardly likely to be typical of the population of that country, those who leave a country where their religion is predominate and move to a country where it is not are hardly likely to be typical of that religion.

R0bert

Don't take it as a no, rather take it that your experience, mindset etc have not equipped you to understand the benefits (or my attempt at explaining them). Try considering the benefits of something in your life which you consider important but which you can't identify an economic benefit for and which sometimes bring pain, most of us have them and often they are some of the best things in our lives. How would you explain that to someone who does not understand?

Irrational Emotions?

You will note that except in the case of some of those who fly their colours very high I generally stay away from the approach of calling detractors "bigots, racists nazis and so on" - there are only a few posters here who seem to clearly fit any of those categories.
Correct : You use analogy and Homily

In case there is misunderstanding I'm not in favor of hands off approaches to those who come to this country and do the wrong thing - none of the benefits to society that I know of apply if the migrants stay within groupings of people of their own ethnic background or spend their time breaking our laws. We should be doing our best to deal with those situations. I'd like to seen some constructive migrant feedback to some of the suggestions BD and others have posted.

Everyone know the answer: A more discriminatory immigration selection process.

I doubt that persons origins are an adequate test of the kind of person thay are. Those who choose to leave the land of their birth are hardly likely to be typical of the population of that country, those who leave a country where their religion is predominate and move to a country where it is not are hardly likely to be typical of that religion.

The past 30 years of indiscriminate immigration from Middle Eastern counties are a self evident this last statement is absolute bollocks, and you have like Rip Van Winkle been asleep.

Yes, by all means let us pick and choose what we wish to assimilate into our culture.

But there are those groups who deny that there is, an Australian culture, that it is just a blank sheet upon which a new culture can be constructed.

All cultures are constructs, but there comes a time when constructs take solid form. It is interesting that none of the cultural influences from outside the host culture have been called constructs, just the host one. That somehow an ethnic culture from somewhere else is more authentic, and therefore more valuable, than the host culture.

To give classic example, from food: we eat so much South East Asian food containing chilli that we assume that chilli has been part of Asian cuisine for millenia. This is incorrect, chilli is not indigenous to Eurasia at all, it came from the Americas in the 16th century, Asian food with chilli is a construct.

So why do we assume that all the other cultural imports into Australia are ancient and therefore authentic and more valuable than the pre-existing culture?

If I wish to enjoy the beach in a typical Australian way why should someone else's choice to interfere with this be more valid than my own? Why should the ‘right’ to play soccer on a beach over-ride the rights of those whose culture wants peace and quiet on a beach? Was playing soccer on the beach part of Middle Eastern culture? I don't think so, it is a construct, and one that can be reconstructed somewhere else.

Was playing loud music by boom boxes on a beach a typical attribute of Middle Eastern culture? It is too a construct and not part of authentic Middle Eastern culture.

If I chose to enjoy the music of the Spanish Renaissance or ‘foreign’ movies then that is my choice. However I will fight against any other culture seeking to use legal concepts and justifications, such as Sharia law, in this country, or those who claim a cultural right to impinge upon my personal liberties and the liberties of those around me.

R0bert:
I feel so hurt, sniff sniff, I may cry. I feel as though I was attempting to engage you in constructive dialogue from within a framework of understanding and ...

I obviously must go and do the hard work, improve my ability to understand the more subtle intangibles that characterise this whole topic.

Or maybe not.

I feel saddened and frustrated when I read a lot of what is posted here. There is a strong thread of hatred and intolerance running through some of these comments, and at the risk of incensing the posters involved, it does make me feel ashamed to be Australian I'm afraid.

Some of you seem to have completely lost sight of our common humanity. If the attitudes expressed here are widespread no wonder many immigrants have difficulty feeling accepted. Fortunately, this doesn't appear to be the case in the part of the country in which I live, but then again being of Anglo-Saxon appearance am I really in a position to judge? I've never known what it's like to look and feel different from the majority group.

A Brisbane woman waiting at the lights to cross the street was standing next to a woman of Middle Eastern appearance with young children who were wilting a little with the heat. The Australian woman smiled and commented that the children looked tired. The other woman smiled back and agreed but also looked surprised. She said she had been in Australia for 18 months and that this was the first time an Australian had smiled at her and spoken to her in a friendly and welcoming manner.

No wonder people of middle-eastern appearance are tending to congregate with others from their homeland. I'm sure we would too if faced with this level of indifference and hostility.