Piggy

Of course I could explain the benefits, if that was critical to the point I was making when I entered this thread, which it wasn't.

Besides, it's a bit like asking me to explain the benefits of fresh air. To me, they are just so obvious that I see little point in doing it.

Anyway, it's too late to unscamble the egg now. What exactly are you suggesting? That we send all immigrants back home? Or that we let them stay but halt further immigration? Or that migrants have to pass some sort of test if they are to stay?

You've said it's illogical to defend multiculturalism without explaining its benefits. I say it's just as illogical (if it ever was!) to criticize something without offering an alternative.

Hamlet!
I will reply in simpler measures. It is not 'wrong' to have the conviction of beliefs in Racism and Fascism.

So is your intolerance to those who hold an opposite view indicative of the very behaviour you hypocritically condemn?
Thank You

Bronwyn

You replied to Mr. P. Pig.

You've said it's illogical to defend multiculturalism without explaining its benefits. I say it's just as illogical (if it ever was!) to criticize something without offering an alternative.

I do not think that Multiculturalism is actually being criticised, more like being condemned.

Anyway, it's too late to unscramble the egg now. – Which egg do you refer to?

The solution is obvious , we exercise or sovereign right in deciding who enters this land , and how those are here are required to behave.

Mr.P.Pig, thanks for the updated link. It was an interesting read and clarified some of the issues which have been raised on these threads but obscured amongst the religious wars and other sub plots.

It would be interesting to see the article up for discussion here, it appears to take a broarder look at the issues than most I've seen.

Initial impressions are that I have a greater level of confidence in the robustness of western society than the author. If we can ensure that migrants are exposed to our society/culture in a broad (and friendly) manner I think that most will find extremism is not so appealing.

To ensure that migrants don't exclude themselves
- place responsibilty and accountability on those moving here. BD has put up some suggestions. I'd also like to see some input from some of the muslim spokespeople regarding what they think would work.
- ensuring adequate support structures are in place for migrants. On the surface there would appear to be plenty but if governments run true to form it is probably lots of dollars being spent on the wrong services.
- A rethink of how we deal with childhood education. Should we allow any child to be educated in a manner which does not expose them to ideas contrary to their parents beliefs? Home education, christian schools, muslim schools all have the risk that almost everybody a child comes in contact with shares their parents beliefs - not very broad.

The issue with locals excluding migrants is more difficult. Mirko's article is trying to point in the direction and as you said it lacks detail on how we get there. For my part, doing what I can to ensure that migrants get to see as much as I can help with of the good things of our culture. That they feel welcomed and encouraged to share in our society as well as share the things they hold dear with me.

We also need some serious research into the factors which contribute to extremism.

R0bert

Teamworktom

By all means, people can hold any views or convictions that they wish, in our society, they can even talk privately about them under certain circumstances.

But when people who hold those convictions try telling me, and others, that their beliefs are the only correct ones they place themselves in a position to be disagreed with and argued against, even condemned.

A person may hold deep sexual desires for his mother, sister or daughter. So long as he does nothing about those desires and keeps the discussion of them between himself and his therapist there is no problem. When he starts arguing publically, for his 'right' to have sexual relations with those people the society has an obligation to argue against those claims. If he takes it upon himself to ignore society's rules, mores and laws and acts upon those desires then he has to face the punishment that society imposes.

so - if a person keeps his Fascist or racist views to himself or between him and his therapist - no problems.

If he starts arguing in favour of Fascism then he opens himself up to attack on that basis.

If he takes action to try to impose Fascism on the rest of us - well, we have the right to resist.

And anyway - in a Fascist state you will be TOLD what convictions that you can hold.

Bronwyn, thanks for your reply

I agree with you, Islam in its extreme form is repressive for women. Not for all though, many practise a more moderate form of Islam and manage to blend it quite successfully with life in a secular or Western society.

Mostly can't agree with you here, everywhere I've lived, it's been the same. Ranging from mild to, by our standards to quite severe.

You may have read me wrongly, I'm no apologist for Islam/Islamic extremism.

They don't have to be extremists, just their daily behaviour is bad enough, welfare, Medicare/PBS, parking, fire bans. It seems that they believe that they're above our laws and we're some enormous udder from which to nourish themselves. Fundie Christians can be a worry but generally but I've never seen groups of Baptists behave the way they do and at least the women are allowed out on their own.

For me, the best society will always be a secular one.

Agreed!

If we work toward creating that sort of society, as we once did,

I think we do that, they can pretty much do what they want, they've done well for themselves and we've thrown a huge amount of resources at them, to what end?

They will gradually over time adopt our more moderate approach.

Perhaps, I've worked with the first generation children of many of our migrants, young mossie males have a lot of catching up to do. The rest enjoy what's on offer here and exploit in a positive and productive way and it shows.

Eventually they may become more moderate but how many generations will that take, at what cost and is it really worth the trouble? It's the same in European countries, resources are lavished on them and what happens?

Your anecdotes only further illustrate to me that most migrants who settle here do want to be part of the Australian way of life.

The mossie women I've talked to want out of their culture, the men largely want the best of both worlds, it suits them.

By all means, people can hold any views or convictions that they wish, in our society, they can even talk privately about them under certain circumstances.

So Hamlet, if this is your true belief, why do you espouse your beliefs and convictions on this Forum?

But when people who hold those convictions try telling me, and others, that their beliefs are the only correct ones they place themselves in a position to be disagreed with and argued against, even condemned.

So Hamlet, if this is your true belief, why do you continue to publish on this forum your view that anyone that does not agree with you is wrong?

A person may hold deep sexual desires for his mother, sister or daughter. So long as he does nothing about those desires and keeps the discussion of them between himself and his therapist there is no problem.

Hamlet, I am in no way interested in your sexual preferences or how you handle your internal conflicts with your preferences or desires?

When he starts arguing publically, for his 'right' to have sexual relations with those people the society has an obligation to argue against those claims. If he takes it upon himself to ignore society's rules, mores and laws and acts upon those desires then he has to face the punishment that society imposes.

Hamlet , I will not stop you arguing for your right to have these incestuous or perverse relationships, but it is not society that imposes the punishment , for that is mob rule , it is the law that imposes the penalty.

so - if a person keeps his Fascist or racist views to himself or between him and his therapist - no problems.
Hamlet , I find it distressing that you would attempt to silence those who have a different view , but demand freedom of expression for yourself? “Is there a name for this behaviour?”