Ranc
it does not make me 'mad' that 'most' people don't follow Jesus, I would hazzard a guess that ALL people don't follow Him 100% of the time. But sanctification is not an overnight thing. We are continually 'being' transformed, and to the extent we respond to His still small voice in our hearts, we will be walking with Him.

I'm actually rather hopping mad right now, I sussed out the story of the Cronulla Beach attacks and 'sure enough' here is the deal.

"GET off our beach. This is our beach. We own it." Who is reported to have said this ? read on.....(please)

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,17469247-5001022,00.html
Yep... you guessed it. "Middle Eastern Males from Western Sydney"

And here is a statistic
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/publications.nsf/0/9C0252B88F63421ECA256ECF00073CB7
<<South-west Sydney shootings: The increase in shootings was particularly evident in the Canterbury-Bankstown and Fairfield-Liverpool Statistical Subdivisions. The rise in handgun shootings in those areas was more pronounced than the increase across the remainder of the State between 1995 and 2000. Furthermore, shootings in these two subdivisions accounted for more than half (55%) of all handgun shootings which occurred across New South Wales during 2000.>

No, not ALL Muslims are like this, but the few extended families who ARE..should be STRIPPED of Australian citizenship AND DEPORTED FORTHWITH ! (As should any Asian Gangs like remnants of the Big Circle in Cabramatta)

I ask you all, if you have time, to write emails of support and encouragement to the Cronulla Life saving club at this link.

I have recommended they make a CODE which can be phoned to a network of Locals (with brawn) who will phone others, to stream down to the beach if gangs come and to DEFEND IT.

http://www.cronullasurfclub.com/main/contact.asp

cheers all

Mr Pig,
Firstly, thank you for pointing out the error in my wording in my last post. Perhaps much like you - a poorly phrased comment but containing the right sentiment?

I was in fact trying to point out that if FH received incorrect information and the (lord knows how many) fingers were never actually cut off, this would not diminish the fact that both Muslims and Christians contributed to the atrocities that have been verified and reported through various international organisations. Again, late at night and sleepy…

Before you start, yes I have looked and can’t find reference to it anywhere. However, as the reports are far from complete and FH may have closer sources to the events, it would be too soon to call him liar or deceitful (in fact I won’t do that as that would require evidence). Still, the point to be made is that for every slight against a Christian by a Muslim, there are just as many to be found back.

The ultimate point is that this is not a numbers game. Community requires forgiveness (something I though Christianity had in buckets). Until we start looking to how we can work together – from both sides – the stupidity of ‘my religion is more right than yours’ will continue. And then, if one wins, where will all the others be? Next on the list? Whoever wins, the rest of the world looses.

Peace all…

I suppose BD, that you will lead the charge on to the beach, with your halo shimmering, bible under your arm and god on your side. Very peaceful and loving.

Terrorism is a religious thing that has been utilised throughout the ages by all religions. We have it now in a lot of christian and Muslim countries and its not coming from the people, its coming from the religious evangalists. We see it in the god fearing politicians, as they pray to god in their palaces funded by others. Just like all religions, their places of worship, the distrubution houses of psychological terror, are fine examples of their concern for their under priviledged believers.

Rational people should be afraid of terrorism, the muslims, christian, jews shouldn't, as it is a part of all religious life, to die for your god, no matter the reason or rational behind it.

Yet it is the preachers and leaders in all churches that talk up the downfall of any opposition or conflict, yet slither into the background when the fighting is to be done. Dont they BD

Boaz - you must have missed my response to your previous post - too busy scaremongering yet again!.

So at risk of boring other posters and due to your latest diatribe on Muslims I feel it is still relevant here it is:

"BD You stated "When F.H. and others actually acknowledge the events we refer to, and cease treating them in a way which the rest of mainstream Islam does not do, then the debate can progress."

Let me make sure that I understand you, BD (I wonder if you can even see the inherent arrogance of your above statement).

To put that statement in simple terms you are saying: If F-H admits that you are right and he is wrong then you will stop rabbiting on about the ‘evils’ of the Q’uran and actually debate the actual article, for a change?

Now you will have to admit that your interpretation of the old and new testament is not shared by all Christians as well as yours and F-H’s interpretation of the Q’uran is not shared by all Muslims. Okay?

Well, with this in mind I think the only fair way to settle this is if you admit that Jesus is not the son of god and F-H admits that Mohamed had violent tendencies.

How’s that?

OR

You could accept that F-H has as much right to believe in the good of his chosen religion as much as you.

Choice is over to you BD."

As I said the choice is yours to actually put those so-called Christian values of compassion, tolerance and forgiveness into practice or to continue with your regime of intolerance.

With proponents like you and the other 'usual culprits' Christianity really doesn't need any enemies.

Reason:
If you are going to blame it on the sub editors, get it right the second time around.

"Before you start, yes I have looked and can’t find reference to it anywhere."

Obviously, it never happened.

"However, as the reports are far from complete and FH may have closer sources to the events,"

Wonder what they might be, revelation from god, a big red phone directly linked to the executive of the UN war crimes tribunal. I know you aren't seriously suggesting that FH has some super secret inside knowledge he is unwilling to divulge, information that is unavailable to the rest of us. Are you?

"it would be too soon to call him liar or deceitful"

Srebrenica happened roughly decade ago, how soon is soon enough to start questioning his veracity.

"in fact I won’t do that as that would require evidence"

Strange standard of proof you have here, making the claim of atrocities is the thing that requires the evidence. Just how is one supposed to prove a negative by the way. This is the same argument that prompted my initial response to you.

Apart from this you seem to want to twist things back onto what I assume is your preferred territory, making the case for the equivalence between the evil of christians and muslims. To this you are welcome, it is not something I am interested in.

"The ultimate point is that this is not a numbers game."

One person I can think of is acutely aware of this I imagine. No, that was a cheap crack. It is a historical/logical game at this point.

If on the other hand you wish to continue trading bromides with the likes of FH, and convince yourself that you are engaging in some form of worthwhile community service (dialogue, outreach, ..., zzzzzzt, ..., insert boilerplate here) then please continue. Because as we all know:

"Community requires forgiveness"

OK, it was looking a bit forlorn last time I checked.

"Until we start looking to how we can work together"

Simple. Start by insisting on honesty.

Mr. Pig,
May I ask why you appear so overly passionate regarding this post? Just a few points…

Because I state that I cannot find mention of the incident does not mean it did not happen. Though I have never claimed that it did.

However as my research into the matter is limited and I don’t have access to the full facts of the entire Bosnian conflict, I don’t expect that I have every fact on the entire incident. That you are so sure, perhaps you can point me to the best source materials to cover every incident over the near 5 year conflict, from which you gain such certainty?

As to my mentioning that FH may have a source closer to the matter – this does not imply a divine or mysterious source. It simply inferred that he may know people in a better position to you and I from which to judge the truth or otherwise of the matter. Again, if you have better sources than ‘Google’, I’d love to read/consult them.

When I referred to requiring evidence before making a judgement, I was speaking in relation to the fact that FH had intentionally told a lie. Until you – or anyone else – can prove this, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Sound familiar in this society?

I have no intention of defending or attacking any religion. You have accused FH of lying, without countering his statements with anything other than ‘because I can’t find evidence, it doesn’t exist’. I simply believe you have acted inappropriately and need to be challenged in this regard.

I would again ask why you seem to have a very pit-bull like attitude to this matter. I very much agree that truth is most important. However a little diplomacy and tolerance could go hand in hand with your questioning.

Perhaps you can indicate why this particular comment – among many claimed by the various religious – has got your goat?