Boaz,

In above posting to kaktuz, I clarified a myth on the divinity and credibility of hadith and its sources. Here is a logical guide to how Islam makes sense to me:

- Historians work (Muir, Sale) talk about an honest & wise merchant who never worshipped an Idol. The man was illiterate, have no history of neither philosophy nor poetry.

- He was wealthy by family and marriage.

- All of a sudden, at the age of 40, he decided to invent a new religion! But hold on, the new religion confirms the Torah and the Bible commandments and ask all Muslims to believe in all previous prophets and Holy books: what did he gain then? He was offered money and monarchy to stop preaching.

- The Quran glorifies all other prophets and messengers but Mohamed (PBUH)Even though he was a wise man, he could not see that inventing a monotheistic religion to pagan Arabs will cause him disasters. Being persecuted and chased out of his city for 13 years, Losing everything he had, living on the streets, seeing his followers persecuted, tortured and killed you it’s puzzling why didn’t he stop preaching if he made it up.

- All the persecution for a religion that teaches: monotheism, prays, fast, do good and believe in all prophets and Holy books.

- In essence: the Quran, the Bible and the Torah teach the same commandments. (Excluding the Nicea creed) a Muslim, a Christian and a Jew share the very same commandments: the oneness of God, pray, fast, pay the alms (poor dues) and be good.

You sound like devout, truth finder Christian(s). Isn’t it more important for you to review and debate how do you honour the first commandment with a theory forced upon you 4 centuries later?
Religion is not a dogma, I studied and compared all Holy Scriptures and when I was comfortable with the Quran, I was not fearful to reject parts of the hadith or story that conflict with it.
I encourage you to do the same.

That’s all folks!

Peace

BD You stated "When F.H. and others actually acknowledge the events we refer to, and cease treating them in a way which the rest of mainstream Islam does not do, then the debate can progress."

Let me make sure that I understand you, BD (I wonder if you can even see the inherent arrogance of your above statement).

To put that statement in simple terms you are saying: If F-H admits that you are right and he is wrong then you will stop rabbiting on about the ‘evils’ of the Q’uran and actually debate the actual article, for a change?

Now you will have to admit that your interpretation of the old and new testament is not shared by all Christians as well as yours and F-H’s interpretation of the Q’uran is not shared by all Muslims. Okay?

Well, with this in mind I think the only fair way to settle this is if you admit that Jesus is not the son of god and F-H admits that Mohamed had violent tendencies.

How’s that?

OR

You could accept that F-H has as much right to believe in the good of his chosen religion as much as you.

Choice is over to you BD.

Philo - you claim I misrepresent you. I have explained to you that I do not see how continually denigrating Islam is conducive to solving the problem of terrorism and establishing open communication with our Muslim community. I don't see where this is mispresenting you. You appear to want Muslims to accept Jesus as their Lord - why should they have to do so? Why can you not accept religious freedom?

David_Boaz. Just a quickie. You say.
"If someone says to me 'Jesus murdered 3 people'... the last thing I am going to do is respond with:

'"Oh..but Christianity is this and this and this "' No, I'm going take the attack head on, and retort with '"No, Jesus did not murder 3 or any people, as there is no evidence to suggest he did"'

Doesn't make you mad that mostly Christians don't follow Jesus' example?

How many people have died at the hands of Christians. Then again Jesus never proclaimed to be a Christian did He? Like Leslie I think there are lots of people who proclaim their Christianity for personal advantage. Take it easy old fella. (Morning dew).

Ok whilst everyone is trying to destroy everyone elses version of religion, I have a question :)

According to the Noah and co story, big flood etc, in both the bible and Koran... Have you figured out yet what happened to all the fresh water fish species and all the Australian species etc? Did Noah have aquariums to keep the fish out of the salt water? Did he take a detour trip to Aus, to drop off the Aussie species? Just asking :)

Yabby,
Way off the subject! What happened to the fresh water fish during the Tsunami 12 months ago in Indonesia? What happened to the fesh water fish on the east coast of Australia 450 years ago during a Tsunami believed to be about 450 feet in height? They obviously survived, or in your theory they evolved after the tectonic plates settled. The Earth has been impacted by meteorites before, and species have survived. Where I live was once a sea basin, now about 45 meters above sea level, fresh water fish inhabit the streams above the salt water tide, that once were salt water sea bed. How did we get fresh water perch in all the fresh water rivers along the coast? The ocean is a salt water barrier from them moving into new rivers. Please Explain!!

Philo, the question is actually more on topic then you think, for its about claimed literal accuracy of holy books, which is what you guys are squabbling about.

Your answer doesent win a prize sorry, for tsunamis affect coastlines. More freshwater fish can swim downstream for upstream, where there were no tsunamis. A world flood, as is claimed, would
cover all land, not small bits and pieces, so there would be nowhere for freshwater fish to survive all that salt. BTW we still need an explanation as to where all the water went after the world flood lol.

As to your perch questions, in times of heavy rain, freshwater fish can be washed downhill, I havent seen them being washed uphill too
often...

So my question might seem off topic at first. But if its bleeding
obvious that there are glaring faults in holy books, as with the Noah story, clearly then they are not so holy and not worth squabbling about, as they are human words, full of faults, as
we are...

If there were no holy books to squabble about, you guys might all
just get along fine :)