An interesting article that gave me a good insight into the community, and confidence in moderate muslims like Irfan and Waleed. As a mother, the one thing that concerns me is not only the young Aust muslims being conned by the extremists. It's the anglo aussies, the non muslims, our very own sons and daughters, like David Hicks and others, vulnerable in their search for meaning in their life, or a community to belong to that rings of exotic far away places (and macho holiday camps learning how to use guns) being drawn into this dangerous web.

Reason
I quite agree with you in some respects. Mainly about the 'moderate' Muslims. I have no argument with people who just wish to get on with life and faith, as many moderate Muslims do.

Lets Test the theory "Moderate Muslims are tame and non threatening"

DENMARK
I put to you that the Danish situation where Mohamed was portrayed in various cartoonized roles as 'bomber' 'womanizer' etc... now, what do we have as a result ?

1/ "Moderate" Muslims taking to the streets in thousands to protest and demand an apology. (they have to be 'moderate' because (shudder) if they are extremists, then Denmark is doomed)
2/ 7 Ambassadors from Islamic countries demand an apology from the Newspaper and that the Prime Minister act to prevent this happening.

Lets summarize:

"Sharia law" prescribes 'Images or portrayals of Mohamed as illegal' So, its hard to resist the conclusion that this is nothing less than a blatant attempt to enforce SHARIA law on free democratic countries....

RESPONSE

I love what the PM said "Freedom of speech is just that..full stop"

Now Reason. As a very contemporary and upto date example of 'Muslim understanding of Sharia" in Australia, I offer for your relflection the following links.

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=16699&hl=right+hand <= this one for the uniformed questions.

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=16699&pid=241049&mode=threaded&show=&st=&#entry241049

Now bear in mind the historical cultural context of this link.

a) It is addressing Muslims of all description in Australia.
b) It is giving authoritative teaching on the issue of 'women of the right hand'
c) While the various contributors have various opinions that 'right hand' means 'slave girls' or not, the ANSWER is unequivocal... it DOES.
d) This confirms what Kactuz and myself have been saying all along.

i.e. "Sharia/Islamic law, allows for the allocation by the State of defeated women as slaves for sexual use, as 'possesions' in 2005.
Take a REAL close look at the 'reasoning' why a man can have sex with them...its illuminating.

Kenny,
Interesting you quote,"Can you show me in the bible were it say's that adultery is no longer a sin punishable by death or working on the sabbath even?"

Jesus had involvement in both these situations, study his attitudes.
__________________
John 8: 3 - 10 Pharisees brought him a woman taken in
adultery;
8:4 They say this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
8:5 Moses law commanded, that such should be stoned: but what doyou say?
8:6 This they said, that they might accuse him.
8:7 ...He said, He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.
...8:9 And they being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one: Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
8:10 When Jesus saw none but the woman, he said, Woman, where are those accusers? has no man condemned you?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I
condemn you: go, and sin no more."
____________________
Matthew 12:1 On the sabbath day Jesus went through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy
disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David and they that were with him did, when they were hungry?
12:4 He entered into the house of God, and ate the holybread,
which was not lawful for him to eat, only for the priests?
12:5 Have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the
priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
...
12:7 But if ye had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
___________________
Islam still today stones [or honour kills] women caught in adultery.

Fellow_Human,
With respect your interpretation of the Qur'an is not what is motivating the Muslim heads that threaten our lives. Stop desperately trying to defend your position and belief in Islam. But it is the indefencible practises of Mahomet that radicals take example from; and these are anathama to the Christ conscious and recognised principles of good social behaviour. Rather identify the problem and outlaw it!

I prefer you stop justifying Islam and start identifying with us principles of best social behaviour. The radicals are not modifying base human behaviour they are inciting its use to overthrow societies that do not adhere to Quran'ic laws.

Ifran in his article has not justifyied his position and belief but recognises it is the belief system that is the present problem we have with Islam. It is not you we take exception to it is the spiritual darkness that is perpetrated by those that adhere to the literal principles of Islam.

I recognise you wish to modify Islam, but orthodox students of the Qur'an will always overlook modified interpretations for what is touted as the final authority from Allah.

I, as several here, have visited many Muslim websites and all seem to be saying similar things, except some are modified for Westerners in an attempt to allure them to believe Islam is the true religion.

Dear Fellow Human

Yes, I've done all that. I used to work as a security guard at a large shopping centre and office complex, the muslim guards would take off their uniforms and go to the centrelink office upstairs to claim under another ID. We told the office, they said they knew but couldn't do anything about it and we're threatened to be reported as racist if they did. Others had threats of violence, I had the same experience working for the parks and talking to employees of the tax office, RTA, hospitals, the same old story. As for discussing their actions, I worked at three different parks. The muslim visitors were often the ones blocking emergency vehicle access gates with parked cars and lighting fires on fire ban days. Politely explaining to them that their actions could result in the deaths of many people almost always resulted in a long convoluted discussion with 6 or more males. Often only way to resolve it was to threaten large fines and towing. Most people of other ethnic groups would just apologise and move. I've talked to many who were clearly abusing the single parent pension scheme, they know they can get away with it so get stuffed, just bring in civil liberties. They will pay a heavy price, it's just one of the many activities that turns others against them.

The comments regarding the taking of slave women in islam are inaccurate. Slavery is no longer a part of Islamic society and therefore this law is no longer appropriate, from what I have been told by those knowledgeable in religious matters.

Regarding person's being stoned this ruling applies to men and women equally it has nothing to do with honour killing which has existed in various other patriarchal societies, South America, Spanish, Italian , Greek. Take a look into history.

I get fed up with Islam being blamed for ill behaviour - yes Muslims behave badly sometimes even in the name of the religion but so do many people from many religions. I read an article in the Sun Herald 13/10/05 about a Mufti and a Coptic priest on a campaign to stop female genital mutilation. Yes both religions practice it in Africa - where it originated NOT in ISLAM yet Islam always gets the bad press.

This is off the topic of Irfan's relevant and accurate reading of the current situation of Muslim's in Australia but it does touch at the core of constant mis-representation of Islam particularly by people like ‘Philo’ who only seems to have a half - baked grasp of what the Islamic religion is about. Stoning people to death was only permissible if FOUR witnesses are available to the sexual act. This itself is quite a paradox an highly unlikely and in a sense offers a warning against adultery with almost an impossible burden of proof

And yes this is harsh but they didn't have social welfare then as many countries still don’t so children out of wedlock place a huge burden on societies. Perhaps we could shoot unwanted children like they have done in the recent past to the street children of Brazil – I haven't heard much condemnation of that practice by the western media of that ‘terrible Catholic Christian practice’ (sorry to good genuine charitable Christians). They forcibly abort women in China for God’s sake – who is complaining about this terrible ‘Buddhist practice’ !! (same as blaming Islam for honour killings).