Irfan, very well put, I agree with you. You also have that situation within the christian church, thick preachers and they come from the US. Isn't it interesting that the US and Saudi are allies, controlled by the religious right and both indulge in Terror. If you can change things to rid your religion of the thick ones, then would it not be a step forward to move towards adopting Australian cultural values to allay fears of your religious culture being force upon us. Instead of flaunting it in public knowing that it inflames people, not a very loving or caring attitude

I read that a big wig in your religion said, that if a follower of Islam is having trouble with the culture of their adopted country, then they should look at themselves not the country for fault. One point, it is not all of the troublemakers that come from overseas, there are those that are born here in all religions that fit the category of thick.

Maybe even religious people like you, may wake up and see the reality of what your beliefs actually project to the world, rather than what you hope they would. Until religion accepts that it only has the same rights as as those that don't believe, then nothing will change, religious history is the gauge of it's credibility.

Ifran,
Once again, you make sense of it all.

I guess now the main issue is how to get the message to the masses – of both the non- and Islamic people of Australia – perhaps even the world.

Like many, I am concerned – with the events overseas and here. However, I have a deep belief that cultures and people can mix healthily and happily together. If not, then this world is a failure and if there was a God involved, he/she/it should hang their head in shame. But I don’t believe that.

Keep educating the non-Islamic to the situation in-house and fostering a better understanding of your faith.

Alchemist,
Though I tend to agree with many of the things you say, I’ like to point out one thing – you have asked religion to accept that it has the same rights as those that do not believe. Should you not also accept that religious have a right to believe without being called a delusion or to ‘wake up to reality’ by yourself? I know you mean well, but it is a two way street.

Now, let’s wait for the intolerance and hypocrisy to begin…

Irfan,

THe opportunity is where the problem lies.

The opportunity for young people, those vulnerable, angry or looking for something, to be exposed to these people with the backing that engage in Terror is where the problem lies.

I admit, during a lost and confused time for me if I were exposed to something that could make me promises, embraces somewhat my beliefs and help me channel the anger I had, I would do. By the time that stage of my life was over and I had recovered, I probably would have been in too deep and brainwashed.

I dont think it is your religion or anything to do with Muslims. If it were a bikie gang doing terrorist attacks, would everyone who had a motorbike be persecuted or tarnished? I am sure so, but having a motorbike may mean you have the opportunity to join an extreme culture such as that.

It is the opportunity that is where the problem lies, and it is only those involved with Islam, and those that know who to contact or who is involved in these 'opportunities' are the only ones that can save thier people, and the people of the world.

I am sure there are perhaps some non terrorists in Islam that may know or are suspicious of some, but turn a blind eye. That is the only way you can stop it in my opinion, and that is a revolt or rejection from within. I am not talking just about words either.

In the schoolyard, when something happens kids often have to stand in a row and not go to lunch etc until someone owns up. I am sure when it gets bad enough, and when every group is scorned and enacting revenge on innocent Muslims, that the religion will work tirelessly out of necessity cough up these extremists.

What we are looking at is a propaganda war and the bad guys have quite a head start; The problem is also exacerbated by the fact that islam is at best a loosely coupled system. There is no clearly defined hierarchy so the messages can well be mixed and varied - even when based on the Koran.

It is only leadership from those Islamic leaders who fell strong enough to unequivocally denounce extremism that will stop the rot; Simialry unequivocal leadership needs to come from our political leaders who try as they may continue to focus more on acts and statements that divide rather than untie; for all the money they spend on spin doctors they have yet to develop a form of words that offers much protection or re assurance to those moderate and genuine muslim among us.

Reason, very good point, I shall have to evolve that fault. The wake up bit, is related to the religious thinking that they have the right to impose upon others, their ideological ways. The delusion that I speak of, is that they believe they are right in those beliefs and completely reject any other option. Plus I do play the devils advocate to draw the thick, blank ones out, it works.

I wish all those within religion well, that can rid themselves of those that bring disdain upon their beliefs in this country. But I won't hold my breath, as I doubt that they have the desire or willingness to take a stand. Sadly the religious are full of words, but little action, unless it is to force their ways.

Even Irfan hints at that. But most religious are followers, not leaders so they follow the strongest no matter their aim, direction or means. The demented blind, leading the mental blind. However I do have compassion, respect and understanding for those that actually live their espoused beliefs in harmony within the sociological cultures that they dwell within.

If this country was not accepting of my rights to a different philosophy and I couldn't adapt it to fit peacefully, then I would leave, even being born and bred here. To do otherwise, is to have a false and misleading belief, that is an illusion within its expression. For a religion to be respectable, it must have respect for those that it seeks respect from. That can only be attained by integrating into the sociological culture they are within. Religion should stop forcing and start fitting.

Sounds reasonable, but would it make any difference? The more I read about Muslims/Islam, the more confused I become.

I have just started on 'taqqiya' and I wonder if we should be taking anything Muslims say at face value.

Irfan....thanx for vindicating all I've been saying for so long.....

"Its the radicals who drive the agenda"

Sneekepete, in Shia Islam there 'is' a heirarchy mate.. different from Sunni.

I suggest that people wondering about what "Islam" is about, should look up "sharia law" specially in regard to captive slave women.

Ask the following:

1/ Does Sharia apply today ?
2/ Does Sharia law, which clearly applies today allow a man to have up to 4 wives and as many slave girls as the Islamic state allows him ?
3/ On what grounds does the 'Islamic state' allocate captive slave girls ? a good performance in Jihad ? Wealth ? Kinship ties with the ruling elite ?
4/ If so, would this not be an 'incentive' for young muslim males to see great reward for fighting hard in Jihad ?
(i.e. for the glory of Allah or the glory of...(fill in yourself) )

5/ If there are examples of 'Sharia' law introduced in a low key manner into Australian society and legal system.. is this not the 'thin end of the wedge' ?

REASON. I think I'm beginning to see the source of your animosity towards posts like mine. You have an image of God in your head which is of your own manufacture. When people contribute along lines which disagree with or are offensive to your manufactured 'god image' you are unhappy.... I strongly encourage you to seek a balanced and revealed picture of God based on Scripture alone.

Irfan recognizes the problem, and describes it well, but under circumstances of greater political/populational power, the attitude of 'average friendly' muslims will increase in tempo just as Mohamed's did as he became powerful in Medina.

REALIST...I'm interested in your office in Malaysia and the situation you described re government help etc.. can you email me at jdrmot@tpg.com.au I'd like to ask u about that if u don't mind.
P.S. I speak fluent malay and have done public speaking in it.

The problem with Irfan's thoughts relate to the latest threats to 'muslim apostates' in the UK. Just how United the UK remains will depend on whether 'moderate muslims' can withstand pressure from Islamic purists who see Westernised Christianity as a deplorable bastardisation of their faith.

Irfan,

Nice to see such an insightful article from a member of the community.

I have long seen the danger as arrising from the Wahabi sect, funded and trained in Saudi Arabia, which then exports the message to the world.

I agree this sect is the major cause of the problems we, and the rest of the OECD (among others) are facing. I personally believe that the most appropriate solution would be for the government to monitor, and refuse entry to these clerics (and psuedo-clerics). this Wahabi sect is the same on responsible for the training (and beliefs) of the taliban, al-quaeda, JI etc.

I would appreciate informed suggestions from members fo the islamic community, regarding how best to proceed. The current changes are rationalised as being necessary for the security of Australia, and for the welfare of Australians. Whether or not I agree with them, they have a degree fo popular support, therefore it is our interest to examine the cause of these draconian laws, in order to remove any need for them to exist.

Hey Irfan! I have got a confession to make. Just like most Australians, I have had sex outside of marriage.

As a Muslim, I presume that you must believe in Sharia Law?

So do you think I should be stoned to death for my sin?

If you do, them why the hell should I allow people with your barbaric, cruel and medieval mindset into my country?

A friend of my brother was murdered in the latest Bali bombings. I have no time for moderate Muslims who sound nice, but who do nothing.

Ifran,
You are saying the right things; but you appear as a lone westernised voice in an extreme belief system of shari'ah law.

If Islam dealt with the spirit and attitude of the individual rather than the enforcement of their view of divine law on a wider society much of the hate would be dealt with. Unfortunately the exponents of the Qur'an define personal behaviour in terms of adherence to divine laws for its followers.

It does not empower individuals to live free and wholesome lives, but guides every move and controls every thought holding them under restrictive laws.

Visit any Muslim religious website and see the type of questions asked about trivial things, eg What does the Qur'an say if I dye my hair? How can I not listen to songs of infidels while at the hairdresser?

Their lives are governed by the leadership of cleric advisers, like consulting a guru or star chart. Their mental status is often infantile and susceptible to suggestion.

When they are told not to question the Qur'an because 'Allah knows best' on issues such as capturing women as sex slaves if fighting jihad. It doesnt liberate people to live compassionate lives by their own good conscience, but occupies the mind of angry criminals to indulge in a religious cultural revenge. Their view of jihad is justified because it feeds their base selfish passions. That is why angry young testosterone driven males find violence fulfilling.

Is it any wonder advanced and intelligent societies see Islam as primitive and barbaric. Its tenets are not open to change, question or challenge.

The spirit of communal Islam.. not saudi, not Yemen, not Jordan... but.. London

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html

He and his family have been regularly jostled, abused, attacked, shouted at to move out of the area, and given death threats in the street. His wife has been held hostage inside their home for two hours by a mob. His car, walls and windows have been daubed in graffiti: “Christian bastard”.

This article is MOST instructive for Muslims here.. and for we non Muslim Aussies... can we EVER tolerate such a rape of the legal system as this ? NEVER.

Now..do I hear the pitter patter of little Indian feet ? Oi..

"Mahatma".. there u are (and look..its REASON as well).... right on que.. now lets hear it

"Rabid...Xenophobic... intolerant.... but wait.. Mahatma.. I don't think you read the article.. its the 'Muslims' who are the intolerant ones..

Don't worry.. you may continue your usual rant :) just want you to know before you get carried away who you are referring to...
Keep it up...thanx

Before I retire for the night.. lets see if 2+2 still = 4...

2 (Muslim mobs in UK are persecuting former muslims)
+
2 (The same thing is likely to happen in Australia)
=
4 (Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.)

Posters

Did you watch the "Cult of a Suicide Bomber" on ABC tonight Interesting eh?

Not all contemporary Muslims are terrorists, but it is very clear that all contemporary terrorists are Muslim!

What excuses will we now hear from the soft pedal moderate Muslim Community? Oh, that's right - we are targeting you sad souls who hate Infidels and Aussie law, and who want to turn this country around with Islam rule. Whilst ever I am alive that will not happen.

Decent Australians value human life. We do not take it in the name of an egocentric psychopath.

Why are we assuming that religion is important to youths (of Middle Eastern origin) today?

What proportion of 14 year old Australian-Muslim boys would prefer to attend a Mosque rather than play soccer or go out on the town in a car with their mates.

I recognise that the Irfan’s informative article is couched in religious terms but if, as Irfan states teenagers, may find non Mosque forms of entertainment more attractive, why assume they must be marched through a religious process to adulthood.

Perhaps many are alienated from their parents traditional form of religion generally. Maybe they tire of religion just like most teenagers do.

So taking Irfan’s advice Muslims should look at themselves. Specifically parents should consider how they are bringing up their boys.

Why perpetuate a youngster’s adherence to strong religious study and worship when this continues to separate them from the wider Australian community?

Its up to parents to decide to allow, for example, their boys to play more soccer and date non Muslim girls rather than forcing these boys to study religion.

Assimilation may be preferable to assuming your "Muslim" sons must continue to be religious.

The formula used by the fundamentalists to attract and control the disaffected and confused is essentially that used by the nazi's / comunists etc. That is that ignorance, xenophobia and intolerance is the preferred route to eternal salvation. The message is the same, and appeals to the uneducated, unmotivated and apathetic (basically the lowest common demoninator's).

If Australian's find such an approach so hard to accept in others, why on earth would we choose to adopt it ourselves?

additionally, if the reactions of the UK, US, etc were their predictable responses to terrorism, why exactly would such an organised group (nb those purportedly planning the caliphate) fail to have predicted it?

The answer would obviously be that they would not have failed to do so. This being the case, if your enemies reaction to stimulus is so very predictable, then your enemy is very beatable.

WAKE UP

Philo,

In one of my previous postings I quoted you popular Islamic websites with declared identifiable sponsors (ie Muslim community Association in the US or Australia, AlAzhar Authority, etc..).

If understanding Islam as we see it is what you are after then Islam is in the Quran, and books like Quran for idiots, Islam for dummies in Dymmocks bookstores. Anything beyond that is POV, politics, etc..

Yet you and the same bunch of posters (BD, Leigh and now Kalweb) seem to go in a single source of choice, aggravate yourselves and come back spewing.

Honestly what you are doing to yourselves is none of my business, just don’t ask Muslims to be responsible for your self created facts.

I just remembered a relevant joke:

-a man and a woman on a bus. The woman looks at the man, closed her eyes, started fantasizing about him smiling to her and touching her. She opened her eyes and slapped him on the face! Sounds familiar?

Peace and all the best,

Irfan, you say

'Both groups feel marginalised by society'

Long before any terrorist attacks began Australians of all hues didn't like 'aussie mossies'.

Largely because of their general behaviour.

I've seen converts, anglo aussie women with kids on single parent pension cards sitting in their late model cars with their middle eastern husbands who also happens to be on a pension, usually disabled.

Am I supposed to praise these women's religious convictions, their bravery in the face of their families dismay?

These couples would've been married by some cleric I believe in some mosque. But the marriage not registered to the authorities.

To me, this easy willingness for to lie and defraud in general makes it much easier for extremist groups to exist in your community.

Carnifex,

You are referring to a bad example and no, you are not supposed to praise bad behaviour.

Other Muslims ie myself and my wife, amongst so many other Australian Muslims, work 10 hours a day, raise two kids and happily pay $70K to the taxman every year to support our system.

If you see the rorts you are talking about (regardless of what religion they might think they are practising) simple, grab the number plates and report them to the tax office hotline.

In few cases I actually did more than that: I walk to them and tell them that their very own religion tells them that ‘work is a form of worship’.

If I judge all people of a certain faith because I saw a crime or offence committed by a guy wearing a cross or a Buddhist like outfit, the world will become an unlivable place.

Thanks Irfan for explaining some of the complexities of Islam as it is practised in Australia, and for suggesting some reasons why and how the radicalism that seems to be the catalyst for terrorist acts gains its insidious foothold. Quite rightly, you call upon Australian Muslims to do their bit in ensuring that the practice of Islam is completely separated from the preaching of the extremist imams who act as rabble rousers among alienated young Aussie Muslims.

However, as per usual your article has attracted the attention of our own (non-Muslim) rabble rousers, racists and ratbags, who respond to your very reasonable article with their typically ignorant and hateful anti-Muslim rhetoric. I take my hat off to Irfan, together with Waleed Aly and the handful of other Muslim correspondents who gently persist in trying to reach an accommodation with the dominant Australian culture via this forum, in the face of the rude, xenophobic and intransigent reception from the vociferously unreasonable minority here who redefine traditional Aussie racism by directing it towards an ostensibly religious object.

Keep up the good work, Irfan. We will only overcome the current hysteria if we can find ways to work together as Australians. The rabble rousing racist crew are in my opinion more of a threat to our social cohesion than are the thousands of Australian Muslims who would undoubtedly prefer to go about their daily lives without harassment from an authoritarian State, the ignorant racism at which Aussies have had so much practice, or the exhortations of 'mad mullahs' imported from Saudi Arabia or elsewhere.

P.S. Boaz: this is my first comment in this thread. As usual, you have your wires seriously crossed.

Nice piece Irfan terror is a crime against everyone. Redneck and his like are part of the problem not the solution. The show on ABC last night was so full of errors it was sad. Considering that the "reporter" was a ex CIA it's no wonder they got their intell about Iraq so wrong. As for redneck comment about Islamic law can you show me in the bible were it say's that adultery is no longer a sin punishable by death or working on the sabbath even? Islam is just like other faiths it practitioners generaly move with the times. There will always be hard liners in the ranks just like any other religion. In Australia most church leaders don't believe in the death penalty but some conservatives(US car sales man) do we have to make sure they don't get into power where every they are from.

BD,
I have studies Christianity – at school and a little at university. I do not believe I have a manufactured God image.

It would seem to me that since Muslims and moderates like me have a different image of God to you that you are the one who is unhappy with people who disagree with you – which you have consistently shown through your posts.

I would suggest that it is you who needs to seek a balanced view of God. Less fundamental and more open to the fact that a different belief system/dogma does not change the fact that we all worship the one God and hope for peace and charity.

Good luck with that…

ON TOPIC:
The fact that Ifran identifies a problem internal to his religion highlights the fact that Islam can be moderate. Blaming the whole of Islam for the issues it currently struggles with, is akin to blaming the whole of Christianity for the issues created by individuals who did not ‘follow the true word of God’ (see the similarity, those who use this argument?)

I believe Ifran would agree that Islam is in need of a Reformation. That Christianity required one (and thankfully it had it!) simply highlights the similarities between the two.

To quote:
“Order is not pressure which is imposed … from without, but an equilibrium which is set up from within”

Something all religion and people can learn…

I don’t blame you, Kalweb. We will never know what Muslims really think. While the lefty drongos lap up what so-called moderate Muslims know they want to hear, you are right to maintain your rage. Many Australians appear to have absolutely no idea what’s in store for them. Lying to infidels, even to other Muslims, to gain desired ends is standard procedure for Islamists.

How long do I have to keep being tolerant for when people are getting killed and muslims are planning more attacks?

Its not all muslims. But the fact is I AM TOLERANT and then we read of muslims in the UK a land from which many Australians ancestors were expelled (highland clearances, church of England tithes etc)killing and intimidating apostates from their religion of peace. Is this a minority of muslims who want to kill or agree that apostates should be killed?

An interesting article that gave me a good insight into the community, and confidence in moderate muslims like Irfan and Waleed. As a mother, the one thing that concerns me is not only the young Aust muslims being conned by the extremists. It's the anglo aussies, the non muslims, our very own sons and daughters, like David Hicks and others, vulnerable in their search for meaning in their life, or a community to belong to that rings of exotic far away places (and macho holiday camps learning how to use guns) being drawn into this dangerous web.

Reason
I quite agree with you in some respects. Mainly about the 'moderate' Muslims. I have no argument with people who just wish to get on with life and faith, as many moderate Muslims do.

Lets Test the theory "Moderate Muslims are tame and non threatening"

DENMARK
I put to you that the Danish situation where Mohamed was portrayed in various cartoonized roles as 'bomber' 'womanizer' etc... now, what do we have as a result ?

1/ "Moderate" Muslims taking to the streets in thousands to protest and demand an apology. (they have to be 'moderate' because (shudder) if they are extremists, then Denmark is doomed)
2/ 7 Ambassadors from Islamic countries demand an apology from the Newspaper and that the Prime Minister act to prevent this happening.

Lets summarize:

"Sharia law" prescribes 'Images or portrayals of Mohamed as illegal' So, its hard to resist the conclusion that this is nothing less than a blatant attempt to enforce SHARIA law on free democratic countries....

RESPONSE

I love what the PM said "Freedom of speech is just that..full stop"

Now Reason. As a very contemporary and upto date example of 'Muslim understanding of Sharia" in Australia, I offer for your relflection the following links.

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=16699&hl=right+hand <= this one for the uniformed questions.

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=16699&pid=241049&mode=threaded&show=&st=&#entry241049

Now bear in mind the historical cultural context of this link.

a) It is addressing Muslims of all description in Australia.
b) It is giving authoritative teaching on the issue of 'women of the right hand'
c) While the various contributors have various opinions that 'right hand' means 'slave girls' or not, the ANSWER is unequivocal... it DOES.
d) This confirms what Kactuz and myself have been saying all along.

i.e. "Sharia/Islamic law, allows for the allocation by the State of defeated women as slaves for sexual use, as 'possesions' in 2005.
Take a REAL close look at the 'reasoning' why a man can have sex with them...its illuminating.

Kenny,
Interesting you quote,"Can you show me in the bible were it say's that adultery is no longer a sin punishable by death or working on the sabbath even?"

Jesus had involvement in both these situations, study his attitudes.
__________________
John 8: 3 - 10 Pharisees brought him a woman taken in
adultery;
8:4 They say this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
8:5 Moses law commanded, that such should be stoned: but what doyou say?
8:6 This they said, that they might accuse him.
8:7 ...He said, He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.
...8:9 And they being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one: Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
8:10 When Jesus saw none but the woman, he said, Woman, where are those accusers? has no man condemned you?
8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I
condemn you: go, and sin no more."
____________________
Matthew 12:1 On the sabbath day Jesus went through the corn; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy
disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David and they that were with him did, when they were hungry?
12:4 He entered into the house of God, and ate the holybread,
which was not lawful for him to eat, only for the priests?
12:5 Have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the
priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
...
12:7 But if ye had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not
sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
___________________
Islam still today stones [or honour kills] women caught in adultery.

Fellow_Human,
With respect your interpretation of the Qur'an is not what is motivating the Muslim heads that threaten our lives. Stop desperately trying to defend your position and belief in Islam. But it is the indefencible practises of Mahomet that radicals take example from; and these are anathama to the Christ conscious and recognised principles of good social behaviour. Rather identify the problem and outlaw it!

I prefer you stop justifying Islam and start identifying with us principles of best social behaviour. The radicals are not modifying base human behaviour they are inciting its use to overthrow societies that do not adhere to Quran'ic laws.

Ifran in his article has not justifyied his position and belief but recognises it is the belief system that is the present problem we have with Islam. It is not you we take exception to it is the spiritual darkness that is perpetrated by those that adhere to the literal principles of Islam.

I recognise you wish to modify Islam, but orthodox students of the Qur'an will always overlook modified interpretations for what is touted as the final authority from Allah.

I, as several here, have visited many Muslim websites and all seem to be saying similar things, except some are modified for Westerners in an attempt to allure them to believe Islam is the true religion.

Dear Fellow Human

Yes, I've done all that. I used to work as a security guard at a large shopping centre and office complex, the muslim guards would take off their uniforms and go to the centrelink office upstairs to claim under another ID. We told the office, they said they knew but couldn't do anything about it and we're threatened to be reported as racist if they did. Others had threats of violence, I had the same experience working for the parks and talking to employees of the tax office, RTA, hospitals, the same old story. As for discussing their actions, I worked at three different parks. The muslim visitors were often the ones blocking emergency vehicle access gates with parked cars and lighting fires on fire ban days. Politely explaining to them that their actions could result in the deaths of many people almost always resulted in a long convoluted discussion with 6 or more males. Often only way to resolve it was to threaten large fines and towing. Most people of other ethnic groups would just apologise and move. I've talked to many who were clearly abusing the single parent pension scheme, they know they can get away with it so get stuffed, just bring in civil liberties. They will pay a heavy price, it's just one of the many activities that turns others against them.

The comments regarding the taking of slave women in islam are inaccurate. Slavery is no longer a part of Islamic society and therefore this law is no longer appropriate, from what I have been told by those knowledgeable in religious matters.

Regarding person's being stoned this ruling applies to men and women equally it has nothing to do with honour killing which has existed in various other patriarchal societies, South America, Spanish, Italian , Greek. Take a look into history.

I get fed up with Islam being blamed for ill behaviour - yes Muslims behave badly sometimes even in the name of the religion but so do many people from many religions. I read an article in the Sun Herald 13/10/05 about a Mufti and a Coptic priest on a campaign to stop female genital mutilation. Yes both religions practice it in Africa - where it originated NOT in ISLAM yet Islam always gets the bad press.

This is off the topic of Irfan's relevant and accurate reading of the current situation of Muslim's in Australia but it does touch at the core of constant mis-representation of Islam particularly by people like ‘Philo’ who only seems to have a half - baked grasp of what the Islamic religion is about. Stoning people to death was only permissible if FOUR witnesses are available to the sexual act. This itself is quite a paradox an highly unlikely and in a sense offers a warning against adultery with almost an impossible burden of proof

And yes this is harsh but they didn't have social welfare then as many countries still don’t so children out of wedlock place a huge burden on societies. Perhaps we could shoot unwanted children like they have done in the recent past to the street children of Brazil – I haven't heard much condemnation of that practice by the western media of that ‘terrible Catholic Christian practice’ (sorry to good genuine charitable Christians). They forcibly abort women in China for God’s sake – who is complaining about this terrible ‘Buddhist practice’ !! (same as blaming Islam for honour killings).

This article espouses the need for more moderate mentoring for young Muslims. Certainly it is worrying if most are being exposed to more fundamentalist and non-Western views. However there is no mention of encouraging the Muslim youth to see themselves as Western youth and instead emphasises that they should stick together rather than assimilate within the wider community. Why is it so rare to find Muslims of any age in social gatherings that include people of other backgrounds. At work functions our Muslim colleagues rarely attended with excuses of the food being unacceptable or because alcohol would be present. There was no reason why they could not have supplied their own food. As for alcohol this is (for better or worse) a part of life here in Australia. No-one suggested they should drink any. There are usually plenty of other non-drinkers around. I consider that the parents of Muslim children should be preparing them for life in Western society by allowing them to integrate and understand their fellow Australians. Other cultures have managed this and at most of the social gatherings I attend there are lots of interesting people from all around the world encompassing many cultures and religions to speak to and learn from. It is only the muslims who are absent.

sajo

I couldn't agree more and have said similar in my post above (on Monday, 14 November 2005 11:09:25 PM).

The whole debate on resolving problems with Muslim integration seems to descent into a complex religious study of Islam rather than talking about everyday Muslims in Australia and what we they do.

The problem could stem from the virtual absence of secular spokespeople of Middle Eastern ("Arab") origin who don't wear their religion on their sleeves. As long as they explain their relationship with wider Australian society in religious terms the longer they will marginalise themselves.

It should be possible for young "Arab" Australians to assimilate into a wider peer group without resistance from parents or the Mosque. Without setting them free of the perils of religion (any religion) they will continue to be alienated individuals who are a danger to us and themselves.

Philo,

I am neither defending nor trying to change my religion. I am explaining to you what you misinterpret or misrepresent. That’s all.

What I find interesting is my postings on this site and others are actually about modernisation but as far as I can see you, BD and Kaktuz (the three Mosque-teers) are on the constant attack with the ‘my religion is better than yours’ and quoting us from your book.

Plantagenet,

I pray in different mosques in Sydney (3) and given the high numbers of youth most speeches are dedicated to assimilation and integration. Some might be more than others about values and stuff but they are all encouraging Muslims youth to embrace the society and be a good neighbour and citizen.

Having said that, Australian Muslims in my view are behind American Muslims, I was in Portland Oregon in January when the mosque announced the last software piracy incident by any of the Muslim community in the US (and also the last smoker) because it is non-Islamic, which is an example of how a modern mosque can objectively add value to a secular society.

People,

Eureka, I've got it (sound of running and dripping)

Why don't we force moslems to assimilate;

it is ver easy (one could almost say idiot proof)

1. Forcibly remove all of their children

2. Baptise them

3. Place them in good catholic / protestant, white households

4. Educate them (forcibly if need be) into the non-violent, non-polarised Australian way of life.

ohhh!.... Whasat? already been done, um;

alright then,

lets instead,

1. arrest them and force them to convert

2. use whatever force is necessary

3. Perhaps the Catholic church would deign to assist (it DOES have experience).

oh, been done too you say,

well, whatever are we to do?

Perhaps a new approach IS in order.

Your Right Aaron... (luv that name.. is your last name Cohen ? :)

I take your point about ways to 'deal' with the "pesky muslims".

For me, there is little that can be done in practical terms involving anything other than persuasion and free choice. Any more than this is unbiblical, and if u are not aware of this, please refer to say Luke and Acts. Why not read the whole New Testament ?

I prefer to recommend more stringent and very selective and discriminatory immigration policy. I use the 'd' word deliberately, because I think we are past the lunacy of the left and PC mob who think it is 'not polite' to discriminate positively in the interests of your own culture and national security. Its about time we ascribed new more healthy positive connotations to the D word.

I would give very close scrutiny to the behavior of the category
"Lebanese Muslim Male" in terms of citizenship and immigration status. Any demonstrating an attitude like those who attacked the Channel 7 cameraman would be deported forthwith at their or their families expense.

As for Mulims already in darkness here, we can only shine a light for them.

Ms Malaise,
regarding slavery in Islam. I'm sorry you are just plain wrong. Goto Sudan and Saudi Arabia, Mauritanea and umpteen other "Dar Ul Islam's and see it for yourself - alive and well, and with Quranic blessing.
Sex with captive slave girls ? Under Sharia its LEGAL. (and disgusting) Nothing more to say about that.

F.H. regarding free speech, I support the freedom to lampoon the Orthodox pope in Sydney Newspapers and if Orthodox Christians rioted, the full force of the law should be applied. (I doubt they would)
F.H. every time you describe Jesus as 'just' a prophet, you insult God and us, but we luv ya :)

Ms. Malaise,
Can I ask does the Ms. represent that you are a divorced woman?

You are ignorant of the Muslim murders of fine Christian men in Ambon and Aech and the capture of their wives and girls as sex slaves in the last 3 years. Sex slavery is not extinct in strict Muslim communities and we have it practised by our Indonesian neighbours, including the mutilation of the private parts of young Christian girls captured as jihad booty. I have video tapes of girls who escapted from their Muslim captors homes to tell their horrific stories of their mothers rape and physical subjection. They tell of their mothers being made concubine wives of their Muslim male captors.

Is Indonesia an Islamic society? If not please identify what it is.

Quote, "The comments regarding the taking of slave women in islam are inaccurate. Slavery is no longer a part of Islamic society and therefore this law is no longer appropriate, from what I have been told by those knowledgeable in religious matters."

Leigh

I always enjoy reading your posts - even if I do not agree with all of your sentiments.

I enjoy your courage and your passion. You always stand up for your beliefs - despite outrage from others. That is a fine trait.

Islam is peaceful and tolerant they say. How come we Aussies are bending over backwards to accommodate Islam? Why are we losing: Christmas carols in some Schools, Christmas carols in some shopping centres, the Easter Bunny, raising the Australian flag in some schools - and similar traditional "Aussie" things - on the grounds that we offend Islam? Why do Muslim people call themselves Muslim Australians? Why don't they call themselves Australian Muslims?

People of Islamic faith say that they came here because they want our freedom: they say they want to live in a democratic society. If that is so, why are they challenging our laws? Why do they want to change our laws? Why don't they respect our laws? Why do they think that they are above and beyond the average everyday Aussie?

Would like to hear your answers to the above - and other posters of course.

Cheers
Kay

Boaz and Philo,

On slavery (again!) the Quran revealed to pagan arabs when slavery already existed. Here is a sample of what the Quran did to end slavery.

2:177…righteous is he who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels and the scriptures and the prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask and to set slaves free; and observe proper worship and payeth the poor-due…

5:89 Allah will not you to task for that which is unintentional in your oaths, but He will take you to oaths which you swear in ernest. The expiation thereof is the feeding of ten of the needy with the average of that wherewith ye feed your own folk, or the clothing of them, or the liberation of a slave, …

90:11-13 but he hath not attempted the Ascent* Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is* (It is) to free a slave* and to feed in the day of hunger* An Orphan near of kin* Or some poor wretch in misery.

Freeing a slave became a must for anyone who ever had a slave.

Comparing to your teachings, there is no similar orders or instructions in the NT or OT and a Christian family (even Priests) in North America until 2 centuries ago had a good bunch of slaves (Africans and latinos). Am I wrong?

BTW, insulting God (Quran or bible) is in not following the commandments or rejecting his messengers. I think we are the least to offend BD.
I never understood how you guys hate Islam of all religions even though the Quran glorifies Jesus more than the bible does.
Is it ego?

Kalweb,

Muslims are the least to get offended by your Christmas carols and decorations because we are the only religion that believes in Jesus and his miraculous birth. Christmas (and coptic easter) is a naional public holiday in Egypt which is a majority Muslims.
Maybe you are trying to accommodate somebody else, Don’t know.

FH,

Just from interest, what will happen to those in Iraq (and elsewhere) that continued to kill their coreliginists over ramadan? Isn't there some kind of particularly nasty outcome to that?

If so, how would it be justified?

Also BD, if you find it offensive that moslems only acknowledge JC as a prophet, how do you rationalise the fact that we don't even acknowledge that he existed?

WHY? Why the hell (something else we don't believe in - thus no blasphemy) do we wish to get into this tired old argument?

Fellow_Human,
You claim Mahomet instructed the freeing of slaves in his day. Quote, "Freeing a slave became a must for anyone who ever had a slave."

I ask, "Did Mahomet free his slaves?"

Are you saying Islam from that day outlawed the capture and use of women from enemies as sex slaves. I suggest you begin to educate the Muslim Indonesian Clerics of this fact. Also demand they respect all people with equal justice; not one lienient justice for Muslim Clerics [Barberous Murderers] and converts [Michelle Leslie] and another for Christians [Chapelle Corby], Hindu and kafir who died in Bali.

The practise of equality is the only identification that none are lesser persons or slaves. Christ demonstrated that all persons are equal and asked us to follow him. Those that mistreated, subject as lesser or physical abuse of other people do not follow Christ. It is the practise of a principle of equality and not an edict of law that identifies a follower of God. If you can show in reality that Mahomet demonstrated he did not take enemies as slaves, then we can believe what he said!

This is not the same as Priests having servants in poverty stricken countries. They are not there under duress, but by choice. I have a friend attending my Church who while in Papua New Guinea for 25 years adopted young street boys into his home to do home duties. When he recently returned to Australia these boys and their family came with him. While in New Guinea they received no wages, he accomodated, educated and kept them in return for houskeeping and gardening duties. There is difference between servants and slaves, and it is to do with attitudes of superiority or physical authority and violates the will of the peron serving.

Fellow Human, you might find that a part of the answer as to why some christians hate Islam so much is a fear of competition. There are probably other reasons as well but I've noticed that as a central theme in dealing with any alternative belief system. Their way of the Hellway I guess. Not sure if that is BD's approach but it is probably part of the cultural influence whch has helped form his views.

R0bert

I think the biggest problem Australians have in coming to terms with Islam is that it appears to be a territory within a territory.
An alien country that has set itself up in Australia, making use of all the benefits but giving nothing back. Certainly no sense of loyalty, patriotism or even of belonging.
We hear much of how muslim youth feels marginalised. How else can they feel when they appear to consider themselves superior to the rest of the population.
There is no doubt that their religion teaches them this very false sense.
Most muslim leaders complain that they are being targetted by red necks after every muslim driven atrocity. Doesn't it take a red neck to assassinate innocents in the first place.
Is it racist to throw bombs in crowded places, racist to behead living captives?
Will the real rednecks and racists stand up?

All terrorism is wrong. Any culture that promotes it as an option is wrong-headed. Any culture that uses terrorism is wrong-headed. We always hear about the Muslim terrorists and we always see the usual mob trying to tar the whole Muslim and "lefty" world with the same brush - but they are silent when it comes to the terror that the US reins down on the innocents in Iraq and elsewhere.

Why do uniforms, "western appearance", and rhetoric couched in concerns for democracy legitmise the "Christian" west's version of terrorism? Three-hundred thousand people have died in Iraq -that is terrifying. And now, despite all the rhetoric about democracy and freedom to justify that invasion, our own leaders are adopting similar laws that Saddam Hussien used to reign in rebels.
All people should be united against all violence. Think about it - isn't it just plain stupid to go to war or terrorise people when negotiation is the only way of resolving anything -in the end. Might is not right.
Why isn't there a concerted effort to portray warmongering and terrorist propagandists as the options of dumb and dumberer. Warfare - dumb option, terrorism - dumber option, doing nothing not an option, following Hussein's footsteps - the dumbest option. If propagandists can convince the "blank slates" that killing is an appropriate way - then kids can also be convinced that the positives of Teachings is proper. There is a better way.
Consider this. Christ had great power at his command. Why do you think he allowed the cops, the occuppiers of his land, the rabble rousers and soldiers to nail him to the cross - to treat him in the most humilating way? Why? The message is simple -you must resist. Resist what? The temptation to join the negative behaviour (militarism) of His persecutors. We are only human. Self defence is nature. However, terrorism is against innocents -it shows the wrongness of Utilitarianism (which the Liberals and Bush adopt in their thinking). The extreme absurdity of terrorism should send a message to the Liberals that Utilitarianism is wrong.
Go back.

Philo,

Mohamed (PBUH) was given a slave (male) who he set free and adopted and was given a female (Maria) who he freed and married. At his death, all he left was a mule and a shield. He left no money and worked until his last day.

There is no sex slaves in Islam or the Quran, 4:1-177 defines women rights and relations within the wedlock only. It is even detailed that a woman has the right to refuse to be dated secretly and adultery is one of the great sins.

Aaron,

Islam teachings on the right of self defence (mentioned in the Quran as part of the Mosaic law in chapter 2) have boundaries “ie fight those who fight you and do not transgress’. i.e. defending your country against an invading army which is what defence forces are for. There is no killing at random, killing innocents or those who are not fighting you. There is no pre-emption and taking an innocent life will be judged as if they killed whole mankind. The Quran does not discriminate who follows what religion and always addresses human as ‘believers’, ‘people’, ‘humans’ you won’t find a single verse addressing “muslims”.

Robert,

I think you are right on the competition thing. Boaz usually gets ‘deeply hurt’ when I state Jesus miracles in the Quran exceeds what was mentioned in all gospels combined. It is like he is Jesus spokesperson or have exclusivity over the man.

Boaz, do you support the church decision to ban the charitable free masons because they believe the Quran is God’s revelation as well as the Bible? Can you see now who hates who?

FH AND OTHER POSTERS

Can you explain the emotion of hate to me? I have never experienced it. I have experienced distate, disrespect, abhorrence, disdain - all horrible feelings. To hold hate against another (person or race) must be very crippling? I gather that it is a more intense feeling/emotion than unresolved anger?

Cheers
Kay

Aaron.
not acknowledging Christs existence is your choice. Its not offensive to 'me' as i emphasize that F.H.s claim that Christ was 'just' a prophet is not offensive to 'me'.
If I mentioned the Islamic view as being "offensive" to me, it was meant in the context of their claims that to satirize Mohamed is punished by death under Sharia law (depending on which school).

Captive slaves and the right of Muslim males to use them for sex as a 'possession' -I'm afraid F.H. has an 'interesting' spin on it, sadly its not the 'Islamic View' because as has been repeatedly demonstrated, Sharia scholars differ with him.

The same goes for 'aggression' and 'raids' If I had a dollar for each time F.H. has made this claim and then been refuted from the Sunna itself and life of the prophet, etc.. I could retire. Again F.H.'s spin is not typical of real Islam, I'm thinking he will soon be recognized as the 'New' prophet of Islam :) the 'kind friendly' version.

F.H. I gave a link to a scholarly opinion previously, from the Sydney Islamic forum..did you read it ? if yes, what is wrong or incorrect in terms of true Sharia law ? please tell tell.

AARON.. The point of the gospel of Christ, is this, "repent, believe, for the kingdom of God is at hand"... in Christ. He fulfills the Law, and only "in" Him, can its requirements be fulfilled.

Abraham was saved by ?......yes.. u know it.. 'faith'. It was counted as......'righteousness' in G-ds eyes.

Those who believe Jesus did not exist, you might be one, but I'm afraid that would be on a 'dogmatic' basis rather than a historical one.

I think I will start counting again.. the number of times the emotions of 'hate' are attibuted to me, and I invite others to count how many times I suggest others who disagree with me 'hate' me :)

Dear Aaron... I offer you these words.

nigas vehu naane velo yiftakh-piv kase latevakh yuval ukherakhel lifnei gozzeiha neelama velo yiftakh piv

F.H.

I know nothing about banning the Freemasons but it sounds like an administrative/organizational issue in a particular church to me..

Which Church ?
Where ?
When ?
more details pls. But there u go again..making it all about 'hate' :) sorrrrry... it might just remotely be about 'disagreement'.

I would not have anything to do with freemasons at an official level anyway. They are a secret society and not Christian. Though there may be professing Christians among them. I just don't know.

Aaron.... kulanu katson tainu ish ledarko paninu vaadonai hifgia bo et avon kulanu:

I hope and pray that one day you will recognize the Messiah. (same for F.H. and all fellow posters who are yet to know Him)

F.H. when you respond to seriously intended posts and links. please take the following approach.

So and so (the quoted authority) is wrong, (or right) because of

a)
b)
c)
and here are the conflicting sources/authorities.

Then we can reach past this cycle of 'we making claims/you giving us spin'.

Its totally pointless to say that Islam teaches 'non aggression' when you know jolly well about the umpteen 'raids' by Mohamed, and the very fact that captives can be taken from 'non Islamic' territory places that Army in an AGGRESSIVE posture/some one ELSE's territory.. or.. does 2+2 now equal 5 :)

Cheers all

Fellow_Human,
Most Australians want to see how Islamic nations deal with inequality and justice before they say Islam has our very same values, so we align them with our Australian moral values.

Your view of the Quran, may be noble and good but it is not influencing Islamic Nations in how they practice equality and justice for all. Do you believe the Taliban best demonstrated how true Islam is lived out? You continue to defend your view of the Qur'an, but no Islamic Nation lives by your interpretation of the Qur'an. Australia with all its failings has been influenced by Christian reformed theology, and demonstrates this in practise. That is why people prefer Australia over Syria or Parkistan deeply steeped in Islam.

Indonesia a Muslim Nation is also a point in focus; a corrupt, violent and deceptive society at the administrative level. The army shoots, steals and rapes native villagers. They don milisha dress and burn and murder Christians in remote areas; bouyed by the chant "Allah is great!", then change back into army uniform. A perfect example of following their prophet in the jihad struggle against polytheists, according to them.

You say I hate these practises of their religion, if abhorrence at these actions is hatred; then you can conclude I must hate them. God hates sin and injustice and a lying tongue, so we might have something in common.

If rancitas thinks he/she has the answers to terrorist by negotiation then I'm afraid fantacy land is a real place. Does rancitas imagine the supposed 300,000 she/he quotes of innocents killed in Iraq were killed by the USA army? Rancitas world view is just as naive to assume that infidels can reason intelligently with fanatical Muslims.

F_H when you can sincerely identify and denounce Islamic Clerics in Australia, like Ifran has done, and confront them on the true interpretation of the Qur'an, rather than try to convince B_D and I that Islam is a religion of tolerance and peace then we might be both working in the right direction.

Boaz,

In our discussions I always referred to the source that all Muslims believe in which is the Quran. Not sure what do you mean by scholarly opinion? You are quoting a scholar who died 1,110 AD. This scholar was made a ‘movie star’ by French missionaries in the 13th century because he promoted partial belief in the Quran and basically claimed that all love, peace and tolerance are void or expired.
Quoting him in Western culture helped the propagandists create and market a negative image of Islam and it is now biting everyone in the bum with terrorism because most of his work should have been burnt or buried. French missionaries contribution to world peace I guess.

Islam in one line is: belief in one God, all prophets and messengers, pray 5times a day, pay the alms (poor dues) and pilgrim once in your life time if you can afford it. Stop.
You need neither scholar nor hierarchy to understand the above.
You are trying to look at Islam from a Christian framework, the complexity of your faith requires expertise, philosophy and hierarchy, especially to explain the first commandment (God =1 = 1+1+1= 3 = 1).

Scholars/ Imams can only give an insight or opinion in day to day matters like donation of body parts, etcc.

And whats with the “hope you believe Jesus is the messiah” Doesn’t the Quran states that he is? (3:45-47). I thought you claimed expertise on Islamic faith.

On the free masons:
I was googling the web and found at least 40-50 churches warning Christians of their charitable activity on the basis that they (FMasons) believe Quran is also a revelation of God. I found it an odd reason to warn people about a charitable organisation.

The crescent of fear
Rod Liddle, The Spectator, 12 November 2005
"As France burned, the mullahs arrived on the scene, shook their heads sadly and immediately issued a fatwa. However, for the many Frenchmen who may have shuddered inwardly when they heard the term so invoked, this was a good fatwa, a nice fatwa, a fatwa to be proud of. The mullahs swung by and ordained that Allah would be extremely cross if Muslims torched any more cars, shot any more policemen, lobbed any more petrol bombs or murdered any more elderly white people. Allah wanted Muslims instead to stay at home, potter about the house, maybe watch a little TV. The fatwa was issued on day 11 of the rioting, which by then had spread to about 300 towns and cities across France, from Toulouse to Lille, and was already nosing its way along the North Sea coast into Belgium and Holland and north as far as Denmark. And while the French public - or at least the majority of it, those not on the streets with the chavhoods pulled over their heads shouting Allahu Akbar and the like - may have been pleased with the mullahs for taking the time to address this pressing social problem, they may also have been a little confused. Because the arrival of the mullahs made explicit what had scarcely even been hinted at before...."
At http://www.spectator.co.uk/article_pfv.php?id=6899

If the mullahs could influence these terrorising youth to stop after their passions were arroused; why couldn't they have influenced them to behave before any action had commenced?

Taqiyya Alert! How very useless is the concept of the "moderate" Muslim -- because it is impossible to know when someone's "moderation" is real or feigned. Experience shows that Muslim dissimulation -- whether called taqiyya, kitman, or simply dissimulation -- comes naturally. Irf Yusef writes:
"Liberal backbenchers doing Al-Qaida’s work by making mainstream Aussie Muslims feel marginalised."
"doing Al-Qaida’s work"? Al-Qaida tell us that they want a global caliphate, sharia law, subjugation of all non-Muslims etc. How is calling for a ban on hijabs (totalitarian political symbols) in schools helping to achieve this? As for Aussie Muslims feeling marginalised - see Qur'an 5:51- Islam forbids Muslims to assimilate or have unbelievers for friends, how can they NOT be marginalised in a non-Muslim country? You can't have it both ways (unless you're a grievance-monger/'victim'). Could this be that there is something in Islam itself that explains the inability of Muslims to "integrate" into Western societies? Could it be that they cannot "integrate" into Western societies without dropping Islam altogether, and that they have no intention of dropping Islam? Could it be that rather than dropping Islam, in the end they intend to islamize the societies that they live in? (See Europe). Have Muslims anywhere in the world ceased to try to promote Islam or its constant expansion?
Another way to avoid discussing what Islam is really about is to use scare-words like rednecks, shock jocks, tabloid columnists (Andrew Bolt?), racists (Islam IS NOT a race), bigots ( look the word up in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of Muslims), prejudice (ditto), Islamophobia etc. Anything to try and silence critics of the global jihad who have bothered to study the Qur'an/hadith/sira. Irf is merely being a good Muslim by trying to deceive unwary Infidels that "Aussie Mossies (an ingratiatingly disgusting phrase) fit in quite well to mainstream Aussie society." Nothing could be further from the truth. CONTINUED.

Deception of unbelievers is taught by the Qur’an itself. “Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them” (Qur’an 3:28). Revered Qur’anic commentator Ibn Kathir explains that this verse teaches that if “believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers,” they may “show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly.” That’s deception. Also, Qur’an 16:106 even allows a Muslim to deny his faith under pressure.
"the crazy theology espoused by thick-sheiks." Crazy?! Is he saying that the Qur'an/hadith/sira are WRONG?
Exactly how are the 'terrorists' misunderstanding Qur'an 9:5, 8:39, 9.29, Ishaq:204 etc etc (No fewer than 26 chapters of the Qur'an deal with holy war/terror and the rewards for martyrs, or shaheeds)?
The unpleasant truth is, Muslim terrorists are getting all these terrible ideas — from violent jihad to self-immolation to even the beheadings we've seen in Indonesia and Iraq — straight out of the text of their 'holy' book.
And that is the important point about the issue of Islam’s true nature: understanding it is not rocket science. One has only to read the historical record, read the words of the Qur'an and the hadith (sayings attributed to the Prophet), and read the centuries of interpretations in Muslim theology and jurisprudence, to know that today’s jihadists have not “highjacked” or “distorted” Islam but are simply traditionalists, squarely in line with Islam’s historical identity.
Muslim leaders/mouthpieces (Irf, Waleed Aly, Keysar Trad etc) today live out Mohammed's dictum that "war is deceit."
What are you Irf? Some kind of Infidelophobe?

Skid Marx,
Wow! I see where the rubber hits the road, huge black tracks over Muslim theology.

I recognise their obsession with the Qur'an and Mohamet blinds them to the principles of true revelation in the 21st century. They have a belief that the ancient revelations and ideas are superior, so we must return to how it was in the mind of the prophet. According to them we must put our society under the controll of one man's ideas. At least Biblical revelation covered 3,000 years of human history demonstrating developments in thought and practise, much the reports of evil leaders we ought not follow. Those that believe we must go back to living under Mosaic or Shari'ah laws are retrogressive and obsessed that the past had it right.

God has given each generation its thinkers and social reformers and though they examine the history of the past they want us to move foward to better relationships and society. However not all free thinkers are responsible builders of good societies, because they fail to recognise the nature of being human as demon-strated by the past. The base attitude of many social reformers desire control and power over others and find their disidents dispensible.

Skid Marx,

You seem to show up every month or so with the usual ‘copy & paste’ and don’t understand approach.
To make sense of it all, here it is:

- Taqeyya (believed by Shiite Muslims) belief is an option to hide your faith when you feel that your life is in danger simply because of your faith.

- This concept was invented by Abu Hammid Al-Ghazali (1058-1110) during the crusades wars. We all know about their history and what they did to Muslims.

- Abu Hammid (who died nine centuries ago) created his own philosophy on Islam under the influence of crusades wars. It is not relevant to today. He basically put expiry on all peaceful tolerant verses of the Quran and claimed that Islam is ‘always at war’. He also claimed that good treatment in the Quran for people of the book is reserved to Dhimmi (local Christians and Jews but not the European versions) does apply only to local people of the book because he saw people with large crosses and larger swords murdering Muslims and group raping Muslim girls of all ages in the streets.

- Most forward scholars since the 18 century like Imam Mohamed Abdou who carried to torch of modernization ago, clearly stated that this ideologies are no longer valid and there are no crusades against Muslims. He is the one who said: “In Europe, I have seen Islam with no Muslims” which means westerners have good values.

- “Hiding your beliefs out of fear” was used by Hungarian Jews during the Nazis, by early Christians during the Byzantine empire.. It was also used by early Christians to avoid persecution of the Roman Catholicism during the 4th century.

Philo,

One correction: Islam for us is the Quran and the Quran in our belief is God’s word. Not Mohamed (PBUH) teachings. Hadith is not part of the Islamic faith and its collection was ignored by the early founders of Islam including the prophet (PUBH).

Hadith was only collected 200 years after the prophet death and some stories kept coming up another 150 years later.

F.H. hi mate :)

err.. just for the record, the information about the position of captive slaves in Islam/Sharia was taken from 2 different sources.
Here is one, from 2005

http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=12375

The 2nd one refers to the same site.

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=16699&pid=241049&mode=threaded&show=&st=&#entry241049

The important point in this F.H. is that this is 2005, and these answers are being trotted out by 'TODAY's mulims in good ol Sydney, on the issue at hand.

So, with this kind of 'flavor/tone/mentality' rife among local muslims, we have every right to be highly concerned that current beliefs are no different from the understanding we have been presenting from the foundation documents, among a significant number of Muslims in our own country. Notwithstanding your own views.

So, please don't tell us we are referring to some 12 century has been :)

Hope your weekend is going well.
Blessings

Boaz,

Again it was a judgement of that time. As per my above posting the legislation in the Quran is to end slavery.

The site you choose, Islam.tc have no sponsor and is an Ishmaailites sect of 20,000 globally. It doesn't really reflect mainstream Islam but of course you chose and let me guess: Philo, Kalweb, Kaktuz are all now regular visitors!

Anyway, this site explains position in depth:

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503547546

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996015662&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE

Also, stay tuned for my new blogspot, it is my little contribution for a better world. You will like it.

http://musliminsight.blogspot.com/

Criminal Laws are made for offencive behaviour and have time and place. These are framed for negative behaviour, they don't express ideal behaviour. Examples: Hamurrabi law for Chaldean, Mosaic law for Israel, shari'ah law for Mahomet's community [based upon the 2nd Jewish Talmud]. Laws always relative: never absolute.

Opressive laws applied by Jewsish lawyers to descendants and proselytes of Moses accused Jesus of violation. He ate with unwashed hands, and was denounced unclean by legalists. Jews never allowed cats or dogs because the're unclean, carry diseases that affect human health.

Jesus healed outcasts whose sores were licked by dogs [they carry less diseases than cats]. His focus was upon the positive aspects of living and relating to human needs, he violated the Sabbath by healing a sick man, also reaping grain for his need. He said the laws were made for man and not man for the laws. He was a revolutionary in his time to change oppressive rulings by Talaban type Jewish lawyers.

Never assume that the laws of Moses or Shari'ah are absolute, current Australian law is based upon reformed Christian Theology that takes into account all persons are equal before its standard set by the ruling lawyers. Of course there's corrupt judges. Laws are applied and removed as situations change. We can evaluate principles set by former laws i.e. Moses Torah and Mahomet's Qur'an and see what effect they had on social order. Though they had application in their day, they both fail the ideal society lived by compassion and equality.

The most benificial teaching we give young people is not laws and how they apply, but demonstrated example of ideal character and encouragement. Note: Jesus never laid down religious laws [he never wrote a book of rules], he demonstrated by his life the living, compassionate word of God. He wasn't into control over others, which is what law is, he was into demonstrating that sacrifice and forgivness even to one's enemy overcomes hostility and enmity. He made the ultimate expression of that in his igminious death.

F.H. ... better take that wound in your foot to the hospital :) shooting yourself there is not recommended u know...

<<In addition, Islam established many other ways by which slaves could easily gain their freedom. For example, a baby born from a slave and her master is not only considered free, but also guaranteed the freedom of his mother. >>

Note that tricky little bit 'a baby born from a master' CONFIRMS the our understanding of Sura 23:5-6 and numerous other texts which directly state a man can have sex with his slave girls as they are his POSSESIONS. Babies are not found under cabbage leaves F.H. they begin with intercourse.

Can you show me from the QURAN where a slave girl having a baby to her master is freed ? Chapter and verse please.

The article refers to a 'systematic plan'... I'm afraid nothing I've seen suggests such a thing even in the slightest. The verses in the Quran are 'incidental' and just show how a man can obtain forgiveness for certain sins by freeing a slave, which assumes at the same time that apart from such sins there is no need to free slaves.

The article claims 'Mohamed never had slaves'.. well it lost credibility right there because even you know he did.

Finally.. the deceitfulness of that article is seen in this.

'Islam condemns taking free men as slaves and selling them'....

but it does NOT forbid taking them in WAR, it describes them as 'booty.

This little tactic is similar to Muslim leaders claiming "Islam condemns attacks on INNOCENT' civilians" but this is different from condemning an attack on civilians who are members of a society which supports the USA for example.

How should Muslims treat 'Kafirs' ? read THIS =>http://muslimconverts.com/muslim/al-wala2.htm

F.H. do you know what 'wala' is ?

Boaz,

To judge others (ie kafirs, infidels, ungrateful, etcc..) in the Quran is a judgement reserved to God only according to people intent.

According to the Quran, the reason why God created us different so that we get to know and learn frm one another "Lettarafu" and not to judge one another.

Rather than occupying yourslef with wahabi sites, here is a link to the inter-faith Muslim Christrian dialogue initiated by the Islamic world council forum.

http://taarafu.islamonline.net/English/Taarafo_Conference/2003/article14.shtml

More on my blog soon.

F.H. thanx for that.. actually, I had no idea what 'type' of site that was, I didn't look for that kind of mentality specifically, I was trying to find a meaning of 'Wala', I just found it in a random search. It struck me rather forcefully, because of the actual stipulation to 'hate kafirs'.

Had a look at your blog. Quite well done. Glad you will eat my salad and chicken :) but hey.. why not my well cooked steak ? smothered with mushies and onions and tomato and chippies with a couple of fried eggs.. (drooling yet ? I am) ... no 'flowing blood' in that steak old son.. (oops.. ur 39, "young fella" :)

My main concern for you F.H. is that you are clearly a man of kind heart but you live in a world of Islamic radicalism. Have a read of Alchemists report from his trip to Europe... in the other thread.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=3856
Posted by The alchemist, Sunday, 20 November 2005 2:17:53 PM

As I've often said, it's not the moderates who drive the agenda..its those annoying radicals. I can see where Hitler went wrong in his biblical interpretation to justify his desire to remove the Jews, (its clearly wrong) but I struggle to 'not' see the connection between the Islamic radicals and the Sunna. They may be overemphasizing one aspect, but it still is a real aspect with roots in that Sunna.

This is interesting, because as Pastor Daniel Scott said in his seminar, 'Muslims are very flexible, they will emphasize what is appropriate to the conditions' and that is exactly how its working out.

But there is no point in revisiting that which Kactuz and myself and Philo and others have spelt out. I don't wish to sound like a broken record :)

Hey..where is your PIC on your blog...you don't need to worry about we Christians coming 'after ya' :) we don't believe in that 0_-
Take care and have a good weekend.

Fellow Human

Thank you. I found your Blog very interesting, and very nicely presented.

Cheers
Kay

Hey, BD, what's this obsession with food laws? Would you force a Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, vegetarian or vegan to have that steak? If they don't have the steak are they are an unassimilable minority? Should the Government therefore bar Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, vegetarians and vegans from migrating to Australia? What about Australian-born converts to Buddhism? Should they leave?

Shallow_Hubris. O solemn dispenser of 'wisdom' to the unwary.
YOU seem to show up ALL the time (d'you think you own OLO? you sound annoyed that Kaffirs are expressing their opinions? you seem to have time on your hands for posting on this forum, are you receiving jizya/benefits from the govt?) with your usual 'Muslims are soooo misunderstood' shtick and I-do-understand-but-obfuscate-and-resort-to-smokescreens-and-half-truths approach.
Taqiyya and kitman have been a part of Arabic culture for about fourteen hundred years. It was developed by Shi'ites, as you say, but is common to BOTH Shi'ite and Sunni Muslim discourse and has significant implications for understanding Islamic fundamentalism, Da'wa and terrorist operations (see Al Qaeda Training Manual).
In operational terms, taqiyya and kitman allowed mujahadeen to assume whatever identity was necessary to fulfill their mission; they had doctrinal, theological and jurisprudential sanction to pretend to be Jews or Christians to gain access to Christian and Jewish targets. In Islamic jurisprudence and theology, the use of taqiyya against Infidels is regarded as a virtue/religious duty.
AND this from a hard-core Muslim site:
" al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation.
.....I intend to demonstrate and prove that the concept of "al-Taqiyya" is an integral part of Islam, and that it is NOT a Shi'ite concoction........The following exposition will Insha Allah demonstrate the existence of al-Taqiyya in the Quran, Hadith, the Prophet's (PBUH&HF) custom, and the companions' custom. As usual, Sunni books will be used to further the argument. This is in keeping with the commitment to reveal the truth by showing that the Sunnis reject the Shia's arguments, while THEIR OWN books are replete (full) with the SAME ideologies that the Shia uphold! .... "al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable (i.e., his TRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart)."NOTE: The two words "tat-taqooh" and "tooqatan," as mentioned in the Arabic Quran, are BOTH from the same root of "al-Taqiyya." CONTINUED.....

A pox on the 350 word limit!
.....Narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari, v7, p102, that Abu al-Darda' said:"(Verily) we smile for some people, while our hearts curse (those same people)."" al-Ghazzali wrote about (in his book, "Ihya `Uloom al-Din), but did not invent taqiyya, you schmendrick.
As for the Crusades, I suggest you study history (not the revisionist kind popular since the 1970s, funded by Saudi petro-dollars). You paint the 'innocent' Muslims to be the 'victims' in the Crusades, and many appeasement-weasels on this thread will, no doubt, be taken in by your oily rhetoric.
HOWEVER:
The Crusades were a delayed response to the Islamic jihad, and its purpose was to recover by war what had been lost by war — to free the holy places of Christendom and open them once again to Christian pilgrimage. Whatever sins Christians committed during their course, the Crusades were essentially a defensive action: a belated and insufficient attempt by Western Christians to turn back the tide of Islam that had engulfed Christendom. The lands in dispute during each Crusade were the ancient lands of Christendom, where Christians had flourished for centuries before Mohammed’s armies dhimmified, converted or killed them. If Westerners had no right to invade these putative Muslim lands, then beturbaned prophet-monkeys had no right to take them in the first place. The 'saders were following accepted conventions of the time: a city that resisted capture could be plundered. A city that did not resist could not be. The Muslims followed this rule many times. That's the way they did things in those days (zeitgeist). Saladin was, according to his biographer, filled with joy as he watched the decapitation of hundreds of Christians in 1187. Saladin preached jihad throughout his reign, making no secret of his desire to capture Jerusalem and massacre its Christian/Jewish inhabitants. It is ahistorical politicking to single out the Crusades as some kind of singular event in history, an excuse for contemporary Muslim bigotry.
And don't presume to tell me what a dhimmi is, you patronising half-wit. If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I'd fart.
Apostasize now!

Can anyone here remember what the riginal article was about? Or are you too busy quoting verses and sources whose identical message can also be found in the Old and New testaments and the writings of the Talmudic rabbis and the church fathers?

"If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I'd fart".

While this is an obnoxious and offensive comment, at least it explains the derivation of its author's nickname!

Irfan

Once again your informative, erudite and what should be an article to make people THINK, has just devolved into another site for the bigoted to spread hate and alienate both Muslims and reasonable people.

Don't let them stop you from writing such worthy articles - there are plenty of us who wish to be informed - even if we don't always contribute to the debate.

Peace

Ari
fair point, I suppose in the normal course of things, if we invited someone with a name like yours, our general awareness of Jewish food habits would stir us to at least ask "Are you strict in regard to food ?"..or.. are u ok with beef or lamb roast ?

The issue of 'blood' arose in the early church also, and it was specifically forbidden to eat 'blood'. The reasons were its association with idolatrous practices and also the obvious carry over from their Judaistic background.(for the Jewish Christians) But the gentile Christians were forbidden to eat blood and abstain from immorality. I seriously doubt that the 'kocher' practice was passed on to the Gentile Christians, rather, they no longer ate blood as in 'blood pudding' or in any way remeniscent of idolatrous practices.

Animals slaughtered by bleeding them would be quite acceptable.

Its worth noting that even the Muslims are allowed to each meat which does not have 'flowing' blood, i.e. where an attempt has been made to remove it.

Ari, if I can be a bit pedantic here. The idea that Kocher slaughtering removes every 'molecule' of blood seems quite fanciful.
The point G-d is interested in, is the condition of your heart, not the content of your stomach.

Isaiah 1:11-13
<<"The multitude of your sacrifices - what are they to me?" says the LORD. "I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats. When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you, this trampling of my courts? Stop bringing meaningless offerings! Your incense is detestable to me. New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations - I cannot bear your evil assemblies.">>

It is not 'issues of non assimilation' alone which make a person unwelcome in Australia, it is the desire to ENFORCE through violent revolution and terror, those things. Last time I checked, I don't see vegetarians or buddhists taking down large buildings with flying bombs. This, was my point.

And the bun-fight continues.

BOAZ_David: Just to let you know... one of the links you mentioned - the "Ask Imam" one, with Mufti Desai is generally taken as something of a joke by most Muslims who are active online (either forums, blogs and so on). Most people would not quote it as a reference, or look at it for support regarding anything other than a very, very culturally strict Indian sub-continent type of thing.

The same for "Islam Q&A" which is nothing but Saudi-sponsored Salafi stuff, straight up and down.

Just checking the content of some of the questions on these sites should be enough to see that - or the replies given!

Boaz,

Not a second I ever denied the danger of islamist radicalism.
In fact, I appreciate its dangers a lot more than you think because I am inside the faith..
I have seen radicalisation and disguised fundamentalism in Europe. I have also seen the 're-invented' Muslim brotherhood with their funky approach but still the same agenda: to control..

All I am saying is that 'lighting a candel is better than cursing the darkness'. Whinging about fundalmentalists and their money and their power to lure Muslim youth won't help.

My mini blog in week one, already have 70-80 Muslim youth watching it and emailing me topics to give an insight on. My comments on treatment of copts in Egypt was their favourite topic and they want to read more.

Kalweb,

Thanks for your encouraging words, much apprectiated.

Skid Marx, (Not Scrap Metal, not Stink Matress, etc..)

'copying and pasting' from perverse books and news headlines is not exactly intellectual, but cheap propagandist approach.
You seem offended that I am commenting, I thought you are for free speech.

Re Hadith, I published a comment on my blog which received a lot of praise from many Muslim youth in Sydney so far.

People can either be part of the solution or part of the problem.
I chose to be an active part of the solution.

Peace,

With respect, Shieeet Marx i think Mahatma Duck just did a job on you. Funny as - thanks for the laugh M.D. re: "If I want to talk to an a*sehole I fart." Save me digging out my "Goodies" collection.
As any fule kno, those that be full o' shieeet do let some slip.

BD, you didn't answer my question. However, you did reveal that what really motivates you is fear of militant Islam. Reading between the lines I presume that you are not really in favour of banning Buddhists, Hindus etc from Australia because of adherence to food laws.

Irfan, have you ever studied the Talmud? Do you know what the Talmud is? What "Talmudic rabbis" are you referring to in your post and which tractates of the Talmud are the source of your assertion?

Hi Ari, yes, partly you are correct.

Fear is what I felt in Sarawak as I made a state border crossing without a passport (we were supposed to not need one at that time I was told) , in the aftermath of an election in which the Muslim candidate lost to a Catholic Indigenous one. It was not pleasant looking down the barrels of a couple of M16s held by Soldiers of the 'right' religion, but I managed to talk my way through with the help of some indigeous people.

Fear of militant Islam is what i absolutely fear as I read of the events of Malaku.. Indonesia.. did you read about that ? You should do a search mate.

Ari, my wifes family (in Malaysia) and therefore many of my own relations live in a similar situation to the Christians of Malaku, surrounded by Muslims and a Government and Army similar in make up and attitude to the Indonesian one. The thought of my mother in law being dragged to a mosque and 'circumcized' sends shivers up my spine.

I fear it on the social level, not the spiritual. As F.H. says, it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness, I rather like that illustration. Sometimes though, darkness is 'seen' to be light, such as by Israel at the time of Isaiah's prophecy posted above.

As Christians we are called to be 'Salt' (to preserve) and "light" to show the way. Where are you Ari ? Jewish ? (canaan was cursed) or perhaps Palestinian ? Son of Canaan is not a name a Jew would choose.

I call all men and women to Christ. In Him there is salvation and forgiveness.

"I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

He, is our candle in a dark world.

Dear David

Circumsion of an elderly woman - any female for that matter?? I feel sick. Can you elaborate on this please?

I have no understanding of this kind of behaviour.

As I am writing this - watching the ABC stuff on suicide bombers. Sickening.

See ya
Kay

kalweb,
I assume B_D will give you full description but I note he has exhausted his 2 x 24 hour posts on this thread.

Female circumcision removes the clitoris and all the highly sensitive area above the vagina. Male circumcision only removes the loose skin on the penis but does not remove the similar sensitive area of the penis. The idea is to reduce any sexual arousal in these women, presumably to reduce chances of them committing adultery.

Barbaric - is all I can say!

Re female circumcision AKA female genital mutilation or FGM.
Its gross, horrible, for a personal account see Wais Dirie "Desert Flower" and she's written other books. The degree of mutilation varies, described on Amnesty's website from which following is copied;
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm#a11

FGM predates Islam and is not practised by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension. Where it is practised by Muslims, religion is frequently cited as a reason. Many of those who oppose mutilation deny that there is any link between the practise and religion, but Islamic leaders are not unanimous on the subject. The Qur'an does not contain any call for FGM, but a few hadith (sayings attributed to the Prophet Muhammad) refer to it. In one case, in answer to a question put to him by 'Um 'Attiyah (a practitioner of FGM), the Prophet is quoted as saying "reduce but do not destroy". Mutilation has persisted among some converts to Christianity. Christian missionaries have tried to discourage the practice, but found it to be too deep rooted. In some cases, in order to keep converts, they have ignored and even condoned the practice.

FGM was practised by the minority Ethiopian Jewish community (Beta Israel), formerly known as Falasha, a derogatory term, most of whom now live in Israel, but it is not known if the practise has persisted following their emigration to Israel. The remainder of the FGM-practising community follow traditional Animist religions.

Shoshana... yes, point taken. I was not saying anything about FGM specifically for Islam, just pointing out what was done to Christians in Molaku Indonesia 'by' Muslims, (Jihad Warriors) hence giving foundation for fear of the potential for similar events to occur in Malaysia where similar circumstances exist. I don't feel such a thing would happen in Australia where the military/police balance is totally on the side of non 'jihad' types, i.e. 'us'.

Philo, thanx for the more clinical explaination, Kay I think that was pretty clear about the matter.

Shoshana.. do you speak hebrew ?
Is53:5-6
vehu mekholal mipshaenu meduka meavonoteinu musar shelomenu alav uvakhavurato nirpa-lanu:
kulanu katson tainu ish ledarko paninu vaadonai hifgia bo et avon kulanu:

I pray that one day you will comprehend these words in their fullness, and see how they relate to the G-d of all the earth, and His plan of redemption for mankind in Christ.

Hey BD, this is way off topic…I know some words of Hebrew but not enough to hold a conversation with. So best to stick with English.

BTW I’ve never felt comfortable when others decide to pray for me, particularly when it’s for something that reflects their hopes and desires not mine. Its wasted on me anyway...

Regards

Irfan.
Is that all you can come up with? More kitman? You're like an Australian version of Tariq Ramadan. Exactly which Old/New testament and Talmudic texts have identical messages to Qur'an 5:51, 9:5, 8:39, 9.29, Ishaq:204 etc etc? Come on man, prove me wrong, you're a lawyer and a politician and you've been on the telly.
I wont be holding my breath.
Anyway blame F_H for straying from the original topic. He/she loves to be pedantic (usually loud, confident and WRONG) about peripheral bits of other peoples' posts. The bits (s)he can't refute (usually the important bits), (s)he makes no mention of and instead goes off on moral equivalence tangents and when one challenges him/her, throws a hissy-fit while wrapped in an aura of righteousness (a bit like you, really). (S)he also has a problem with me using some of the computer facilities (cutting/pasting - what's next? typing?).

mahatma dork.
If you think that was 'an obnoxious and offensive comment', then you should get out more. Where do you live? Utopia? Toytown? I bet you over-use the word 'draconian' too. By the way, my nickname is 'Nick'.

rancidas.
So mahatma dork did a 'job' on me (yuk!) eh? Exactly how? Although anyone with a children's TV show (Goodies) collection would probably find the dorkster's comment 'funny'. Actually I borrowed the quote from MAD TV.
It's strange, but you useful idiots/quisling types haven't even commented on the main cut'n'thrust of my post(s), just the bit where I use the words 'arse' and 'fart'. Muslims worldwide persecute, murder, rape, bomb, lie, spread their noxious ideology, subjugate and do all manner of nasty things to non-Muslims (and ALL women) and all you pathetic cowards do is get yourselves in a tizzy because I called one an arsehole (we mustn't do that, must we? Muslims are sooo much more superior and sensitive than us decadent Westerners).

Skid Marx.
Yes I thought Mahatma Duck did a job on you. Exactly how? Can't you see where? Intellectual argument based on reason and humour must be sooo foreign to your culture of vilification, assertion, irrelevance and resentment. Although anyone with enough sense to enjoy a TV show (Goodies) collection would probably find M.D.s comments interesting. Actually Skid Marx admits stealing the slogan from MAD TV. (And your mate Redneck gets into everyone else for offering up such material.) Obnoxious and offensive - M.D. is here to argue sensibly and you are prattling on about Crusades being in response to some long ago jihad - so exactly what has that to do with Irfan's excellent article that is trying to ensure social cohesion by teaching the youngsters better ways.
It's strange, but you useful idiots/quisling types have commented on the main cut'n'thrust of my post(s), especially the bit where I use the words 'arse' and 'fart'. This is because it is indicative of the nasty vitriol that may give you false feelings of supremacy and strength doesn't further the debate and shows you up as a base person. I don't think you want a peaceful solution.
Christians worldwide persecute, murder, rape, bomb, lie, spread their noxious ideology, subjugate and do all manner of nasty things to others and ALL women and all you pathetic cowards do is get yourselves in a tizzy because M.D. pointed out the "obnoxious" and "offensive" attitude to others(we mustn't do that, must we? Rednecks and Skid Marx are sooo much more superior and sensitive than us decadent Westerners).

Read this S.M. and the section of your post which I have paraphrased and tell me your diatribe doesn't sound like that of Muslim/Redneck rabble-rouser. The ones that agitate their zealous mates to accept terrorism as a solution. Your disrespectful carry-on is where the trouble starts. It(Skid Marx's carry-on)is foreign to this country. Irfan, from what he writes, I think, is more an Aussie than the likes of Skid Marx will ever be. Happiness.

Ifram,
Just 1 point you would do well to make clear.

Racism. The term 'racism' refers to race. See the dictionary.
Please do not confuse the issue, by use of the term when referring to 'religion'.

People are not racist, in opposing or rejecting Islam.
People are racist when they assume one race, is inferior/superior to another.

One can oppose the ideas and teaching of Islam, while honoring, and admiring the genuine qualities of every person, of every race.

"Racist" has become an emotive term. I agree that racism is wrong.
But offering a critique, of Islam, or of Christianity, Atheism or Buddhism, is not being racist.

"Racism" is used wrongly, to label people who are often thoughtful, and yet wish to disagree with, and even refute, and point out inconsistencies in religions, and world views. It is fast becoming a term, used by the Left, to attack their opponents.

Scrap Metals is not talking to me anymore: agugugu!:

Your brain-dead clichet (interesting to see you swapping with other mentally ‘challenged’ posters).

You live in the one book world ‘here is another great translation of the Quran by an ‘honest’ missionary. I don’t need to prove you wrong Mr Forrest Gump.

Here is a sample from your own writing:

(8:39) "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam"

Meaning translation is ‘until they persecute you no more’ meaning is proven in the following and previous verse.

Your repetitive ‘slay them where you find them’ is another missionary dishonesty, the full verse (5:6,9,11) talks about those who fight you, drive you out of your homes. Until they stop their aggression.

You need to read meaning translation by a Muslim (or even a historian) like Pickthall. It is important to read what is written about specific theology as seen by there own people for no reason other than it will tell you how people see their own faith.

It sounds like you read missionary translation, your eyes blink and “uhu, uhu, uhu, good stuff, uhu,uhu”.

Get al life you wacko! Any news on your Judo Christian martial arts school?

tennyson's_1_far-off_divine_eve
Re: rascism. I posited the idea that we use the term "cultural suprematism" when discussing these matters. I thought I offered a pretty good argument. Its in OLO blogs file somewhere. Culture is generally tied to religion and ideology or some central ideology. Race often, except for the real racists, has little to do with it. I probably have more in common with people of eastern appearance than some of the more radical posters on this blog.
Got shot down too easy to just use the term racism. You may as well talk to that fence post over there as try and posit anything new in here. Humanity.

Dawn, Irfan Husain, 12 November 2005

"IN a recent article in the Guardian titled "The return of the caliphate", Osama Saeed argues that the restoration of the caliphate to unite the Muslim world is a desirable goal. In support of his argument, he cites the success of the European Union and the United States in forging political and economic unions.
He conveniently forgets that both his examples are secular entities, whereas the caliph derived his authority from his designation as God's vice-regent on earth. He also glosses over the inconvenient history of the caliphate which saw much intrigue and bloodshed. Indeed, after the sack of Baghdad by Halaku in 1258, the reigning caliph Khalifa Mustasim was killed, and his surviving Abbasid relatives sought refuge in Cairo. His uncle was appointed caliph in the Mamluk capital....."
At: http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

Daily Times, Mahathir bin Mohamad, 11 November 2005
"Many Muslims still condemn the founder of modern Turkey, Mustafa Kamal, because he tried to modernise his country. But would Turkey be Muslim today without Ataturk? Mustafa Kamal's clear-sightedness saved Islam in Turkey and saved Turkey for Islam. Children often play a game where they sit in a circle. One whispers something to his neighbour, who then whispers that information to the next child, and so on, around the circle. By the time the last child whispers the information to the first, it is totally different from what was originally said. Something like that seems to have happened within Islam. The Prophet of Islam, Muhammad, brought one - and only one - religion. Yet today we have perhaps a thousand religions that all claim to be Islam...."
At: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=2005\11\11\story_11-11-2005_pg3_

rancitas,
thanks for the term 'cultural suprematism'. I found your post old post.
fair enough too!
cheers,
t 1 f-o d e

rancidas
I have no idea who Redneck is, but I would sure like to shake his hand.
Your grovelling dhimmitude is where the trouble starts. Your post proves what? That you're an uninformed twat.
I read what you said (my, I seem to have touched a nerve).
My diatribe doesn't sound like that of Muslim/Redneck rabble-rouser.

F_H
Glad to see that apparently I'm responsible for turning you into a gibbering ninny.

Themistocles, Redneck, Kacktus, Leigh etc. Keep up the excellent work.

Shoshona

Having talked with a number of health care professionals, they tell me that FGM is present here, among Australian born citizens, there's even a government 'task force' to 'deal' with it.

Guess which religion these girls belong to?

I know Irfan it's off topic.

Skid Marx,

I was trying to establish a dialogue for a while, I only mirrored your behaviour for a posting to show you yourself, obviousley you didn't like it.

And whats with the 'handing over statement' to the other club members? Are you part of a secret club (sounds you gave up on Judo Christian stuff, don't worry I never understood IBM on demand too..)
One propagandist down! one down!requires medevac..

At least Kaktuz and Boaz are consistent propagandist. I prefer a broken disc to a screeeky disc.

Carnifex,

I had a question in my mind since your posting saying your experience working with Muslims was all not so good.

Until I read your posting about ML, justifying lies, deception, drugs, because 'she is not really harming anyone'.

Well, people usually mix with friends who resemble them. If you didn't like what you saw in your Muslims friends, its likely something you don't like about yourself as well.

Skid Marx – Redneck is the person who says things like: “The west knows how to slaughter it’s enemies like civilised people.” You’re aligned with that.
I have some challenges for you Skid? First, if my blog is so uninformed, just refute my points. Not just deny but refute . Incidentally, no one has ever refuted my idea re: cultural suprematism.
Explain to me please what is grovelling about my blog. Exactly. Some of the strongest, intelligent and bravest people I know speak their piece quietly and without malice. You don’t.
Yes you have touched a nerve. I think your intent is to be malicious. (No consequences make S.M. very naughty girl) Self-respecting folk like to be spoken to sensibily.
By exchanging a few words and sending your diatribe back at you, I have proven that you agitate like a terrorist propagandist (by stereotyping and demonising others). I have also gone some way towards showing that you and your mob are cultural and racial supremacists in the sense (the are positive applications) that you only see the negatives in others’ of difference.
Look at your childish attitudes towards others. Most psychologist will tell you that folk rile the hardest against the things in others that they loathe in themselves - so you feel that your are challenged in most areas.
Skid Marx I have read your stuff and usually switch off because it is irrelevant and unhelpful. Let’s say all of a sudden everyone agreed with you –what then? Your mono-culture of Christians whose history is no better than the one you loathe.
You say I am repetitious - now that is beach ball calling the tennis ball bouncy, bouncy,bouncy,bouncy,bouncy,bouncy.
I also think you need to explain (listening moderators?) what exactly you mean when you refer to Rancitas as a “twat” and relevance. I once wrote, to prove a point, F:)U :) C:) and so on until I spelt out a word regarded as a profanity. I was banned . If I set another foot wrong, I am out forever. I think the moderators have low standards, like you, here.

RANCIDAS
".....I think your intent is to be malicious," " ...Self-respecting folk like to be spoken to sensibily". This from a self-righteous pseudo-humanitarian whose first post directed at me opens with "With respect, Shieeet Marx..."
and ends with the tolerant "those that be full o' shieeet do let some slip." So, let me get this straight, when rancidas is provocative - that's OK. When anyone of a different viewpoint is counter-provocative they are "cultural and racial supremacists". Sounds a bit like Hamas/Hezballah/Fatah murdering Israeli civilians and when the IDF target the perpetrators, Hamas/Hezballah/Fatah fume/seethe about "Israeli aggression". Sheer hypocracy.
These tactics doubtless impress the ignorant and credulous, but others here are not so willing to be diverted from the real issues.
"...I have proven that you agitate like a terrorist propagandist (by stereotyping and demonising others)." First of all, you have 'proven' zilch, and furthermore, I am more than happy to live with a rainbow of races and religions (although I choose to be an atheist - what's all this "Your mono-culture of Christians" guff? and yes, Christianity's history is MUCH better than the one I loathe), so long as that religion is not politically totalitarian. Plenty of believers in exotic creeds alien or new to the West have managed to fit in perfectly well, and be friendly neighbors and loyal citizens, even if they came from Vietnam, Africa, India, China etc. Only one group, one belief-system, distinguishes itself by being incapable of fitting in. And that is Muslims, and Islam.
Tolerance of intolerant people is cultural suicide. It has become patently obvious that no amount of coddling, compromising, or rehabilitating these people will change their "hearts and minds," period. They want it all, and they've even said so. Good grief, what has Islam ever done to deserve all of this ridiculous appeasement?
So, you've read my stuff and usually switch off because it is 'irrelevant and unhelpful'. Prove it!
A twat (not a profanity - slang) is an idiot, logically-challenged, a dork, a schlemiel, a half-wit - comprende?
WAKE UP!

So Skid Marx you dishonestly forget to mention the fact that you attacked another blogger with the words “you, patronising half-wit. If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I’d fart.” That changes the complexion of the whole thing.

You go into this rather silly spiel attacking me for giving you a bit of your own back. You have proven nothing Skid Marx except your inability to see your own misgivings and foolishness. The reasons for my having a go at you - you conveniently overlook. You overlook your “obnoxious and offensive" comments directed at other posters.

I don’t usually get into tit for tat (or should I say tit for twat).

A twat also refers to a c*nt and given your foul mouth and childish responses - it is more likely than not that that was your intended usage.

Maybe the reason you are having trouble accommodating the positives of Muslim culture that Irfan portrays so nicely is your attitude to others. Your vitriol towards M.D. and now Rancitas is a clear example of the hatred and disrespect that agitators use to cause trouble amongst cultures. It certainly doesn’t earn too much respect amongst serious posters.

It is heartening to see that you are multi-cultural with your respect for other immigrant groups. I think you will find that there were people, like you, who opposed these people (Vietnam, Africa, India, China etc )coming here too.

You walk into any Christian, Muslim, redneck venue and start mouthing off the way you do. Do you think you would be “fitting” in very well ? Maybe it is you who needs to adjust your attitude.

I have never suggested appeasement for terrorists - nor have any other posters that I can recall.

Skid Marx - what have the nice Muslim folk ever done to you to deserve all your hatred?

I am awake Skid Marx. Well and truly awake to your motives. (cool breezes)

Can you explain the emotion of hate to me? I have never experienced it. I have experienced distate, disrespect, abhorrence, disdain - all horrible feelings. To hold hate against another (person or race) must be very crippling? I gather that it is a more intense feeling/emotion than unresolved anger?

I know it at the hands of my family. Religion can drive it to like when many times my mother would claim "god made you a man" and persist with efforts to change my persona or sexuality. It is all one. At the approach of every Christmas I feel this uprising of unresolvable grief inside me at the suffering I've had to endure at the hands of my mother and father, with my brother and other relatives as allies. It takes right up until February or so for me to get over the hurt and pain of their hatred, hostility and rejection.

It is extraordinary but chillingly possible that a family can organize itself into a conspiracy to alienate and isolate a member which defies its narrow-minded worldview, so that the outcast person has not a single soul left in the family at all. My tears could fill a harbor.

I bear testimony to the consequences of severe hatred under the cloak of false respectablity inspired by religion. I note that my father has risen to power in the family driven by the accelerating wealth of his business.

Inner City,
A short answer is there is no hate.
What you have is a clear and present danger of some: Intellectualizing and politicizing a subject matter that has no premise. The Premise some on the left would have you believe Islamophobia is a racist derogatory state of mind-and Irf is a moderate. Simply put Crap.
Just read the text of people’s commentary.
Simpler explanation is: The only thing more dangerous and fatal than an Assassin’s bullet, is an Ideological premise of a psychopathic interpretation of Metaphysics, “Leftoids” and the half education to realize what part of a biological function creates reaction and what conditions it to react in such a way.
Easy, Survival. The basic most incredible self preservation tool the body possesses.
Read more here: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/press/oxytocin_amygdala.cfm

You can see why the assassin- lay in the mind of some who have a greater need to suppress your natural instinct. Your only weapon to defend your self.
I can not reproduce obvious language in relation to the subject matters, through fear most would not understand it, and so an effort for most with out a postmodern degree in deceptive language, I hope real clinical science helps explain: this will help. And remember, it is something learnt. And it is your biological defence weapon - your learnt threat: "Neurology" There are Truths .

INNER....

I really don't think it is appropriate to publically denounce your own father in a forum like this no matter how you feel.

I've actually had a bit to do with your dad in business, and whether it is good or bad, it would not be appropriate for me to comment either way in here.

Its a cheap shot by you at them, specially mentioning by name.

Have you explored the medical side of your situation ? have you had any kind of genetic examination, I believe there are possibly some medical reasons for what you are feeling. If there are, then it might alleviate some of their perceived hostility.

I think we all have occasional feelings of 'opposite gender' in our psyches, but thats pretty normal. We don't encourage or build or re-inforce those things because our predominant disposition is according to how we are born and socialised.

Do not discount the importance of socialization in terms of self identify.

If they are Christian, then they will be struggling with your situation for various reasons.

I can't for the life of me figure out why you would want to 'change gender' when you know full well that at your deepest level you are a male, as born. (unless there are hormonal/medical reasons)

If you were born with male 'equipment' and there are no medical reasons for your feelings. Then I can only conclude its all 'in the head', in which case I encourage you to seek counsel and therapy.

Brain chemistry is an interesting subject.

"Its a cheap shot by you at them, specially mentioning by name."

When a certain course of conduct may be morally wrong, but legally ok, informal sanctions tend to be most effective if negotiation or communication fail. Naming might not bring any immediate change, but can in the long-term can cause exposure and force reflection and contemplation on a recalcitrant party. It is useful if the recalcitrant party is behaving immorally, unethically or abusively and running around with a cloak of respectability like they're better than everyone else.

The powerless don't have much in their arsenal. Naming can be the biggest blow that one can make.

I don't recall the last time in over a decade they've shown me any emotion on meeting, told me they love me etc. When visiting their home in Norwood, Adelaide [surrounded by million dollar properties] after a week in St Kilda, my brother spoke to me but they were on a trip for business in Brisbane. He wouldn't even invite me in and I find out later he was under express instructions not to "let that thing in"

"Have you explored the medical side of your situation ? have you had any kind of genetic examination, I believe there are possibly some medical reasons for what you are feeling. If there are, then it might alleviate some of their perceived hostility."
Who'll pay for genetic testing---the tooth fairy?

"I can't for the life of me figure out why you would want to 'change gender' when you know full well that at your deepest level you are a male, as born. (unless there are hormonal/medical reasons)"

Of course you couldn't. Few would understand.
There is a medical reason. Under the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychiatric Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association, Gender Identity Disorder is a documented mental disorder. The typical and proven peer-reviewed approach is to prescribe hormone therapy for individuals and render surgery to those who want it and are stable.

indigent outcast progeny of merchant family,
You are obviously distressed and crying for help, but realistically you are not going to find it writing on these pages. You are only going to find it in face to face contact with clinical professionals, or psychiciatric counsellors. Knock on a few doors and some will open. After you have tried, give us a report.

You will find the answer soon but you must take steps in the right direction.