Xena,

If you understand the passionate development of Monotheism you will realise the context. Ancient Judaism along with Islam have the same cultural and family links in Abraham. They were cleansing the land of polytheism and establishing monotheism.

Islam under Mahomet claimed Israel has abandoned the faith of Abraham and Christians had adopted polytheism. Hense they must stand under the judgement of Allah. They'd violated His pure law. The same events were happening under Joshua as happened under Mahomet, they wanted to rid the land of infidels.

"Kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)

"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)

The attitude of Jesus against the legalists Judaisers towards the poor, sinners, and polytheistic Gentiles gave each of these people new hope that God loves them and will forgive. Under Judaism the poor were cursed because God had abandoned them, adultererous women were stoned, and Romans were to be slain, eg zealots at Masada. Jesus primary teaching was: love of God, neighbour and self applied to all men. The strength of God is in love and sacrifice not in legal power and law enforcement of religious ritual.

Compare John 3: 16 says, "For God so loved the whole human race, that he sacrificed the one who perfectly expressed His character, acts and wisdom, that those who believe (adopt his spirit) as he revealed of God will be saved." (pharaphrased) Sacrificial Love for an enemy is more dynamic than adherence to laws. All laws are human constructs made to serve society. Man was not made to serve laws, but laws were made to serve man. Christianity is about serving ones personal educated conscience.

Philo:

I am only making biblical quotes to get a reaction - quoting back at me is an exercise in futility.

"What is it the Bible teaches us? - raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us? - to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."
[Thomas Paine]

Now get back to the thread, there's a good little boy.

Waleed looking forward to your next POV - loved your article in yesterday's Age - with reasoned articles like that I am sure that the scales will drop from the eyes from the delusional. Maybe even philo et al will drop their hate and discover reason - then maybe not.

Xena ,
Wow! Your malicious spiteful reaction reveals your irrational mind. I requoted the texts to identify my answer. I’m sorry you lost an argument with your husband this morning, there’s no need to take it out on me. I note your condescending attitude demonstrating your proud maternal superiority. All rational stuff!

I note your attempt to identify my faith in a debauching God. The New Testament and myself do not teach Immaculate Conception as you so blatantly and annoyingly retort.

Your introduction of Mary indicates your personal hatred; and your siding appeal to Waleed is patronising. Ask Waleed how Mary became pregnant they hold a Catholic position. Perhaps you are left outside the theological spectrum.

Quran 003.043, The angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above the women of creation. O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow (in worship).
003.044
This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee by inspiration: (Mahomet) wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
003.045
(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
003.046
He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
003.047
She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
004.156
And because of their disbelief and their speaking against Mary is a tremendous calumny.

I suggest you ask Waleed what is the tremendous defamation that will occur for speaking against Mary. Does he believe in punishment for blasphemy?

Philo,

I am impressed with your quoting frm the Koran but rather one clarification. We (Muslims) are different from Catholics position as we do not worship Jesus and we do not believe in the Trinity. Jesus statement in the Koran is clear that he asked people to worship God and that he is only his messenger and miracle.

Regards

AK

Philo - It is a mistake to make assumptions about people all you have achieved is further revealing how little you understand those who do not share your brand of fundamentalist christianity.

For the record I am not married. Can't remember the last time I had an argument with anyone.

Regarding 'debauching God' I quoted Thomas Paine - wish I'd thought of it myself though.

I don't believe in your God, I find the idea of a pregnant virgin as believable as the tooth fairy.

BTW personal insults? This is how a good christian conducts a debate? Have you ever heard of leading by example? No convert today Philo. Muslim clerics aren't the only ones who are delusional.

I hesitate to wander into these turbulent waters, but here goes...

Philo, maybe this is a problem of literature (as in how do you interpret the nature of the "characters" in a written text), but there is a question of consistency here. We know what God is like, because we have The Bible - the Word of God, his autobiography, if you like. In the Old Testament, he is a jealous and vengeful being. In the New Testament, he just wants to hold hands and smile at kittens and let bygones be bygones.

You quote the OT calls for people to kill boys and rape the young women, and the Lord commands "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6) That doesn't sound like "sacrificial love for an enemy". And yet this same "God" sends Jesus to preach a gospel of love and forgiveness. Jesus is in effect repudiating the entire OT heritage of Yahweh, his personality, his laws, his nomination of a chosen people, etc. In fact repudiating the very god he was supposed to be the incarnation of.

In describing Christianity, you say: "All laws are human constructs made to serve society. Man was not made to serve laws, but laws were made to serve man." The Old Testament is one long statute of God's law, regulating everything from land markers, slaves, menstruation to goats and - of course - sex. Oh yes, and how to kill his version of 'infidels'. And Yahweh spent a lot of time requiring humans to serve those very laws - and punishing them for every infraction.

Or is the Old Testament NOT in fact the word of God? Is it just a human work, featuring certain middle eastern tribesmen (and they were men) trying to read the omens to interpret the personality of their protector spirit?

No doubt there is much theological sophistry accounting for this seeming conversion on the part of Yahweh, but it doesn’t work. Not for me, at any rate. Happy, though, for you to believe it if you want.