Osama bin Laden has never shown much remorse or grief for all the bombings that have taken place throughout the world in recent years, and of course most of those bombings have been directed at civilians.

Osama Bin Laden was trained and supported by the US government, (via the CIA), to conduct operations against the Russian army in Afghanistan, with some thought that Al Quidia was also formed, (or at least strengthened), with CIA involvement, and one has to wonder about that, particularly in relation to 9/11.

However the conflict between Muslims and Christians as to who has the best prophet, can readily escalate into who has the best bomb, and more lives will be needlessly and tragically lost.

Thankyou again Waleed.
If more Christians and Muslims were as perceptive as yourself, perhaps the arguments repeating so annoyingly on this site would stop.

Keep up the good work and you are welcome to my table any time.

Thanks Waleed - keep up with your well reasoned arguments we need reason above all else.

I believe that we need more people like Waleed and Irfan speaking out, regardless of the predictable twisted minority who will no doubt attempt to hi-jack the argument about the supposed 'evils' of Islam.

The more I read from rational people like Waleed the more optimistic I feel and the more I can understand.

Hopefully I’m not one of Trinity’s twisted minority but here goes.

Whilst not quite in the same league as denying the S11 bombers were Muslim or that the holocaust actually occurred is there not an implicit denial taking place in the Western world about attributing atrocities to Christians?

That the London bombings occurred around the anniversary of Srebrenica may just have been a coincidence barely noted, after all wasn't that an act by Serbians against Croatian Muslims? But why are we so ready to label the victims but not the perpetrators. Maybe there were Serbian Muslims involved in the killings but this is not my understanding.

From a Balkan Muslim's point of view a coalition of essentially Christian nations offered a safe haven for thousands of fleeing Muslim families in exchange for them disarming themselves. They then allowed a rampaging ‘Christian’ army to murder thousands of the now defenceless people with near impunity, the ringleaders of which still remain at large.

That the Serbians were identifiably Christian is evident in the three fingers salute deliver by soldiers leaving desolated Muslim villages, it purportedly symbolised the father, son, and the holy ghost. Although since rescinded, Serbia (to the delight of many religious websites in the U.S.), last year made the decision to ban the teaching of evolution in its schools.

I am all for the chastisement of S-11 deniers and for those wanting to visit our nation to spread these messages should be made to feel as unwelcome as David Irving. But perhaps our own veracity would be strengthened "in identifying, and openly reclaiming" our "tradition, from the criminal element."

On a national level we must support our government’s efforts to fight terrorism with all the resources it can muster, on a state level however laws that impede the more destructive and divisive elements of religious fundamentalism must also be supported. There should be no denying these elements exist and that they can only help in creating our own home grown fanatics.

Could the tragedy of London show that the Brack's government may have been ahead of the game?

Team,
one of the bombers apparently was a 'special needs teacher', another drove his dads Mercedes often, another suspect was a Phd. It doesn't sound like the 'disenfranchized, poor, hard done by, marginalized that Ash suggested are the more likely profile of the easily influenced impressionable 'suicide bomer'.

They sound in fact more like Waleed himself, a laywer. One interesting factor, appears to be recent visits to Pakistan, where they 'visited relatives'.

Now, one is attracted to the conclusion that unless it can be shown these people were involved in some high powered Quranic/Terror cell study group in the UK, they most likely got a quick pumping up in Pakistan as to their 'real' responsibility and opportunity' as Muslims.

If (note...'if') this turns out to be the case, it would comfirm my own suspician that Muslims in the West who are left to themselves, without input from the heart of Islamic radicalism like the Wahabis and the Pakistanis, or Jemaah Islamiah (note though that Bakir from Indonesia has visted here) they will be model citizens, with the exception of trying to impose Sharia law by stealth as Waleed outlines in his article on 'Financial system changed effecting stamp duty and Muslims' or the denial of ham sandwiches to non muslim Australians, or changes to burial laws which discriminate against non Muslims.

Waleed in fact, worked for the imposition of a crucial part of the 'Sharia' which is to 'silence any criticism of the prophet' under Islamic law punishable by death unless I'm mistaken.

-Criticize/Insult the prophet......death
-Decide not to follow Islam any more.... death (In say Pakistan or Saudi or Iran)

for example. to state the historical fact even without any extra adjectives "Mohammed gouged out their eyes, cutoff their hands and feet, and left them to die in the desert" is considered by Waleed and company to be 'vilifying Muslims'.
This incident is totally avoided when Islam-qa.com responds to the question "Did the prophet mohammed ever commit torture" yet it is from the same hadith which justifies "if a man changes his religion, kill him"

I don't believe the "official" story of the twin towers being brought down by fires started by the crashing planes of September 11th 2001. Those towers were brought down by controlled demolition and couldn't possibly be anything else.

Many of you may be unaware that another World Trade Center building (7) also fell into it's own footprint at around 5 in the afternoon of that awful day. This building was not struck by any planes or debris but also freefell to the ground in suspicious circumstances. To view this amazing footage you can visit http://911research.wtc7.net and check it out for yourself.

We are being lied to and manipulated on many fronts by this "War on Terrorism".

Ok, I've had my rant. Let the personal attacks and berating replies begin. Fortunately, I'm used to it.

Destructor,another CIA plot.Get real.I saw it live in TV.There was no time to plant hundreds of engineered explosives.The towers fell because their steel super structure reached a critical temperature that weakened it's integrity and the weight of the concrete brought it plummeting to earth.

What a nonsense you have postulated.A wonder about your integrety as regards our security

Oh why or why do people like DESTRUCTOR persist on promoting such utter nonsense.

If the editor(s) of this fine website are reading this, can you please delete his post as it is worng, frivolous, and offensive

Thank you

I admit that I can't imagine what would drive anybody to become a suicide bomber, whether the context is New York, Israel, Madrid, Baghdad or London. I will also acknowledge that it is striking that this particular tactic has been deployed with devastating effect by the declared Enemy in the War Against Terror. I observe that the said War doesn't appear to be having much of a deterrent effect against terrorism.

Anybody who thinks that either terrorism, or the bullsh*t 'war' against it, will solve anything, is manifestly delusional. The same goes for those who look for theologically derived explanations and solutions to the current 'world war'.

We are currently engaged in a struggle between the teeming billions of have-nots against the millions of haves. Equilibria will eventuate under various guises, some of the more popular of which will undoubtedly be informed by various more or less anachronistic ideologies.

Thus endeth this secular sermon from the garra.

Amen.

Ahh... women :D

We note that all the commentaries to Waleed's above thesis so far are dated Thursday. Events in London on that fateful day, must now put a shocking different complexion on the already existing sorry state of global human relations. The fear is that because the suicide bombers have been identified as British citizens, though Islamics, it might justify that we are now truly engaged in George W Bushes fight between good and evil. In our sorrow for the London tragedy, let us realise that the crisis now facing our humanity, should not contain thoughts about good and evil, or revenge between two great world religions, but a time for reconciliation and a serious contemplation of the whole source of our histories. Maybe we now need world leaders not so much political, but as the Golden Age Greeks would say, more with wisdom and understanding.

George C, WA (Bushbred)

Garra.
nice refreshing change from you. At least you grappled with the issue, rather than going off onto cloud cuckoo land with spurious posts like the ones you do from time to time usually just after one of mine, which are either an ad homimen against me or some incomprehensible fantasy. Well done this time.

Its clear that a number of us are striving to find some 'way ahead' in this without condemning anyone :) Sadly, while this is heartwarming to the sentimental, it doesn't actually get to the nub of the issue. Is it as simple as "Have-Nots" vs "Haves" ? Garra, with all respect for your position, I point out that there are KAZILLIONS of 'have nots' in Africa and Latin America but I don't see any of them 'bombing the great Satan' or the west in general because of their material lack.

Taken together, all the factors in these bombings, lead one to a different conclusion from yours (Garra) .. that there IS a theological aspect to all this.

Rather than trumpet my own 'axe', may I suggest a course of action which may result in a better understanding. Go to Islamic Sydney and join the forum, or Mirc (server 'Dalnet) and join "Islam" chatline.
Talk to Muslims, about Jerusalem and the Al Akbah mosque especially.
Dig.. find out.. what is 'really' at the root of this 'war'.
Read "The Sword of Allah" on line http://www.swordofallah.com/front.htm to see how Islam expanded.
Examine the relationships between MOhammed and his military people,
Look at the Hadith of Muslim and Bukhari specially the 'book of Jihad'
Ch 52 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/

When people have done this, they can criticize my postings, with a more informed head. Please refrain from 'simply condemning' what I say without it coming from a knowledge base which can say "That is true, or untrue" is this too much to ask ?

Destructor, you are a fine example of true bigotry "We all saw and heard Bin ladin discussing how he DID 911" yet, 'you' say.... I won't repeat. duh.

Okay bd, the prophets of Islam are out to rid the entire world of infidels by unremitting suicide bombing. It is Islam's reaon for being and won't stop until every last non believer is dead.

Proof:

"Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)

"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)

OOops made a mistake the above is from the christian bible. Sorry about that must look up further 'proof' from the Koran.

"However the conflict between Muslims and Christians as to who has the best prophet, can readily escalate into who has the best bomb, and more lives will be needlessly and tragically lost."

Finally Timkins has actually made a very good point (not a feminist in sight);-)

Praise be to BD for proving the truth in Timkins' post.

Robert, the editors of the site are reading, but don't see any need to delete Destructor's comments for a number of reasons. Fundamentally the site is about free speech and engagement. You can't engage with someone's wrong views unless you allow them to express them. And you probably don't properly understand what you believe yourself unless you are forced from time to time to explain them. How can you do that if wrong views are suppressed. All of which assumes that Destructor's views are wrong, which I think they are.

But then, if I went around deleting wrong views I'd set myself all sorts of problems. Where would I draw the line. Destructor's not the only one who has said something wrong or nonsensical on this thread!

Apart from the practicalities, in principal Destructor has a right to views and to be able to express them as long as he is not violating the law.

Destructors views may not be incorrect, as there are very many anomalies with the official line regards the 9/11 attacks.

However Sheik Mohammed Omran may not be totally incorrect also in saying that Osama Bin Laden was not responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Or at least, Osama bin Laden may not have been "directly" responsible.

It has to be remembered that Al Qaeda was initially a product of the Russian – Afghan war (EG Al-Qaeda (Arabic: "the foundation" or "the base") is the name given to a worldwide network and alliance of militant Islamist organizations. Originally funded ($3 billion) by the USA. Built on the mujahideen resistance movement against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, it seeks to defend, via military and terrorist tactics, other Islamic communities that it considers to be under siege, including those in Kashmir, Chechnya, and Palestine. http://www.answers.com/topic/al-qaeda)

After the withdrawal of the Russian troops from Afghanistan, Osama Bin Laden and his network of arms, money and fighters had no enemy anymore, and they began to turn their attention towards countries such as US, (which ironically had previously supported them in their fight against the Russian forces).

However Al Qaeda does not appear to be a hierarchal type structure, and some believe it no longer exists at all, because so many of the people who were within Al Qaeda initially have been killed or jailed. So if a terrorist attack does occur somewhere, it is not necessarily organised by Osama bin Laden, or even by Al Qaeda.

There is a danger now for Muslims, in that they can be used as a scapegoat for any type of terrorist activity taking place somewhere in the world.

A leading Muslim cleric states that he doesn't think Muslims are capable of terrorist acts: sounds sinister and dangerous to me!

Bit laughable Xena’s sloppy argument quoting Old Testament texts at that great Christian defender Boaz David, given that the texts were specific to the Israelites about 3,500 years go. How about some New Testament texts Xena, like something from the lips if Jesus?

Also not sure where Xena got to with her proof from the Qur’an but to help her out here are several (sura and verse numbers given):

• “As for those who are slain in the cause of God, He will not allow their works to perish. ... He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them.” (47:4-6)

• “Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ...“(4: 74,76)

• “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ...“(9:5)

• “Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme” (8:39)

• “Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given (meaning Christians and Jews) ... and do not embrace the true Faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.” (9:29)

And there are plenty more texts from where these came.

The point at issue is that neither Xena nor anyone else can demonstrate any examples of present day Christians (or for that matter Christian in the past) using the texts she quotes to kill Muslims whereas there are at least some Muslims in disturbing numbers who use the quoted texts from the Qur’an as justification to bomb the London transport system and much more besides.

David:

I think you missed Xena's point that is: you can dig up any dirt from any religious text - especially if you want to incite hatred which you, BD et al are doing.

Top Ten Signs that You're a Christian

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" -- including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loop-holes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that the Earth is a couple of generations old.

Contd

contd

Top Ten Signs that You're a Christian

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects -- will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet you consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving".

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to prove Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history -- but still call yourself a Christian.

I see “Bush honesty rating drops to lowest point” http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8561443/

And in another poll “Muslim Support for Bin Laden Falls” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162563,00.html

Good!

Given a choice between George Bush and the Neocons, or Osama bin Laden and al Queda, I wouldn’t choose either. Both seem to regard “War is Peace”, both do not seem adverse to killing civilians, both seem to want to use religion for their own political purposes etc.

What to do with the mess both have created.

I would think it important for people of all religions to be calling for a full investigation of the bombings and terrorist attacks, so that all the people responsible are found.

Also people of all religions to be calling for an end to the arms race, a vast reduction in the size of armies, as well as more democratic governments and an end to dictatorial governments.

There cannot be much peace with terrorists, armies, despots, and those who advocate lying, manipulating, deceiving or killing members of the public.

Timkins - astute post.

C'mon people stop the 'my religion is better than yours' rant. Time to work together to stop the terrorists.

Please.

If I see another biblical quote, well all I can say the more that someone shoves their religion at me the less interested I become.

Please use this sorry time to unite against terrorism everywhere.

TRINITY
Biblical quotes, are in fact part of some peoples 'opinions'. I find it hard to equate expressing a biblically based opinion with 'ramming it down YOUR throat'. In fact, this is not the 'trinity' forum :) its the 'all peoples views' forum. Your point about 'if I see another bible quote'..... well, in fairness, I suggest if I am your target, just look for my name at the bottom of any post b4 you read it, and bypass it. U know. 'change the chanel' No one is forcing you to read what I write. My recent postings are not directed at you anyway. I've been debating with Irfan and Ash, and if you look at Ash's posts, you can still see the smilies. I've been absolutely full on with Ash, and he still smiles. You see a biblical quote and its "If I seeeeee....etc"..... have a think about that please.

You said "Lets understand the terrorists" just after you condemn any Bilical reference. Well, I haven't been using Biblical references in exposing the other side of the Islamic mind, I've been using THEIR history, and scriptures. So, if you want to understand them, is that not where you would look ? How can you understand an Auzzie cocky apart from the "Man from Snowy River" kinda thing.

Your obvious animosity against Christ is a little bit telling of your own issues u know.

To know the foundation for a faith is the obvious and logical and reasonable place to look for 'reasons'. Ive dialogued with them in many places, forums, and lived under them. Would you like to have to swim, shop, work separate from the guys ? why would they want this ? ( Hint -look at the foundations)...

Please avoid suggestions that such a quest is as infantile as 'My religion is better than yours ner ner'..Wherever there are competing interests for the hearts and minds of mankind, we have to study and compare and contrast. As long as we speak truth, there should be no problem. Pick me up when I start peddling 'untruth' :) blessings

Looks like more nutbags congregating in a vain attempt to deconstruct a Waleed Ali piece.

I guess some people here would love to see Muslim Australians transported in time by 10 years and in place to Srebrenica.

Boaz-David, new to this forum, however I think that you lack insight into the secular mind. Biblical references mean nothing to a non believer, with that in mind I would like to point out that this forum is not the Boaz-david, Ash or even Irfan forum either – it is for everyone.

A bibilical quote, therefore, is not going to convince a good part of the people you are trying to reach. I suggest reasoned argument instead. Telling someone to ignore your posts is something of an oxymoron – why bother posting at all if you are not prepared for responses that may not be to your liking?

To the non believer reading your posts does indeed appear infantile. I see no effort or your part to engage in positive debate with people of differing opinions and differing religious beliefs.

You state "Pick me up when I start peddling 'untruth' " to the non believer your bible quotes are non truths. It is a shame that you don't understand this.

Both timkins and trinity have made good points. This debate goes nowhere while you try to insist that your religious beliefs are the only way. Please try and see the debate from another perspective.

Wow.... Johny, some1 is up early for a saturday morning.

As you are new to the forum, it is understandable that you have picked up on only the 'current emphasis' of most of my posts, which are in the context of mostly RELIGiOUS threads, and therefore you would have missed a truckload of 'reasoned debate' particularly with Pericles, and others, on more of a 'reasoned/philosophical' nature.

The interesting thing is, that I seldom make 'biblical quotes' and in this thread, I've made none :) so... where is this coming from ?

I'm smiling as I write this Johny, because in this thread the ONLY person to quote the bible is XENA :) and then, (bigger smile) its TRINITY who berates the 'bible quote' mob :) er.. this would be XENA ?

So, Johny, unless your referring to another thread, I could be forgiven for detecting a '10' on the 'anti Christian bias meter' :)

but if there was a thread on 'punk rock' I'd be joyful to engage with you. One of my favorites is "the failure of secular humanism" or.. "The despairing emptiness of existentialism"

You are RIGHT... this is not the BOAZ forum, but he has just as much right to share Christian thinking as you have to share Secular.
Johny, we can debate morality, industrial relations, Left vs Right, Communism/Capitalism all good. But I will (as a Christian) inject a particular flavor to that debate. by the way, 'truth' is something which is very flexible. To a Marxist "Capitalism is futile" is truth, when in fact it may 'contain' truth, but is more of a doctrine.

XENA.
when you do quote the Bible, (specially the Ezekiel verse) please answer the following:
-To 'whom' were those words spoken
-About who ?
-Why ?
-How was it fulfilled ? (was it ?)

In other words, please avoid cheap shots.

Then we can talk :)

Johny...are u noting ? "No biblical quotations..only a reference to Xena's)

Sheesh, Boaz - whose up early? I thought it was bedtime.....

Now pedantry will get you nowhere, mate. I have read other threads, duh, like CEO's should get christ and such. Yeah, absolutley pertinent. But you are picky aren't U? No you haven't made any CHRISTIAN bible references on this particular thread - they're just every else ad nauseum. And now maybe you won't make any. We can only pray.

Becoz you ignored most of my post and becoz I'm about to go to bed I will repeat my post. Lazy? Maybe. So were you to focus on only a small part.

Good night, don't let the bed bugs bite.

"To the non believer reading your posts does indeed appear infantile. I see no effort or your part to engage in positive debate with people of differing opinions and differing religious beliefs.

You state "Pick me up when I start peddling 'untruth' " to the non believer your bible quotes are non truths. It is a shame that you don't understand this.

Both timkins and trinity have made good points. This debate goes nowhere while you try to insist that your religious beliefs are the only way. Please try and see the debate from another perspective."

Try to relate to others Boaz baby - I'm sure you're intelligent and erudite - but this anti Islam rant is going nowhere

BD,

You just confirmed your own double standards.
You asked Xena to confirm and explain the context of the killing and slaying in the bible, but these rules does not apply to the Koran verses!..I am out of words..at least I can say missionaries I met in North Africa were honest and fair in quoting from the Quoran.

AK

Goodness BD, you do have a thick hide or are you just a glutton for punishment? At least your posts make some sense.

Irfan, it is not what some people on this forum may or may not think that is important (and you really would not know), but what the great mass of Australians might think if the suicide bombings go on and if Australian muslims are found to be involved. However, you do seem to have some easy potential converts for Islam on this thread.

Timkins, Trinity and Johnny - thanks for your astute and interesting posts. Good reading.

David - I am an atheist - the more I see of religion the more I reject it. However, I cannot help but notice the most divisive hate filled posts are from fundamentalist christians. I would no more convert to Islam than I would to christianity. However I respect others rights to believe in flying monkeys if thats what they want - just don't expect me to agree.

I support all people actively working together against terrorists. And hate rants merely feeds the rage of terrorists.

Peace.

Xena,

If you understand the passionate development of Monotheism you will realise the context. Ancient Judaism along with Islam have the same cultural and family links in Abraham. They were cleansing the land of polytheism and establishing monotheism.

Islam under Mahomet claimed Israel has abandoned the faith of Abraham and Christians had adopted polytheism. Hense they must stand under the judgement of Allah. They'd violated His pure law. The same events were happening under Joshua as happened under Mahomet, they wanted to rid the land of infidels.

"Kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourself every girl who has never slept with a man." (Numbers 31:17-18)

"The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6)

"When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves." (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)

The attitude of Jesus against the legalists Judaisers towards the poor, sinners, and polytheistic Gentiles gave each of these people new hope that God loves them and will forgive. Under Judaism the poor were cursed because God had abandoned them, adultererous women were stoned, and Romans were to be slain, eg zealots at Masada. Jesus primary teaching was: love of God, neighbour and self applied to all men. The strength of God is in love and sacrifice not in legal power and law enforcement of religious ritual.

Compare John 3: 16 says, "For God so loved the whole human race, that he sacrificed the one who perfectly expressed His character, acts and wisdom, that those who believe (adopt his spirit) as he revealed of God will be saved." (pharaphrased) Sacrificial Love for an enemy is more dynamic than adherence to laws. All laws are human constructs made to serve society. Man was not made to serve laws, but laws were made to serve man. Christianity is about serving ones personal educated conscience.

Philo:

I am only making biblical quotes to get a reaction - quoting back at me is an exercise in futility.

"What is it the Bible teaches us? - raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us? - to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith."
[Thomas Paine]

Now get back to the thread, there's a good little boy.

Waleed looking forward to your next POV - loved your article in yesterday's Age - with reasoned articles like that I am sure that the scales will drop from the eyes from the delusional. Maybe even philo et al will drop their hate and discover reason - then maybe not.

Xena ,
Wow! Your malicious spiteful reaction reveals your irrational mind. I requoted the texts to identify my answer. I’m sorry you lost an argument with your husband this morning, there’s no need to take it out on me. I note your condescending attitude demonstrating your proud maternal superiority. All rational stuff!

I note your attempt to identify my faith in a debauching God. The New Testament and myself do not teach Immaculate Conception as you so blatantly and annoyingly retort.

Your introduction of Mary indicates your personal hatred; and your siding appeal to Waleed is patronising. Ask Waleed how Mary became pregnant they hold a Catholic position. Perhaps you are left outside the theological spectrum.

Quran 003.043, The angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above the women of creation. O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow (in worship).
003.044
This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee by inspiration: (Mahomet) wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
003.045
(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
003.046
He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
003.047
She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
004.156
And because of their disbelief and their speaking against Mary is a tremendous calumny.

I suggest you ask Waleed what is the tremendous defamation that will occur for speaking against Mary. Does he believe in punishment for blasphemy?

Philo,

I am impressed with your quoting frm the Koran but rather one clarification. We (Muslims) are different from Catholics position as we do not worship Jesus and we do not believe in the Trinity. Jesus statement in the Koran is clear that he asked people to worship God and that he is only his messenger and miracle.

Regards

AK

Philo - It is a mistake to make assumptions about people all you have achieved is further revealing how little you understand those who do not share your brand of fundamentalist christianity.

For the record I am not married. Can't remember the last time I had an argument with anyone.

Regarding 'debauching God' I quoted Thomas Paine - wish I'd thought of it myself though.

I don't believe in your God, I find the idea of a pregnant virgin as believable as the tooth fairy.

BTW personal insults? This is how a good christian conducts a debate? Have you ever heard of leading by example? No convert today Philo. Muslim clerics aren't the only ones who are delusional.

I hesitate to wander into these turbulent waters, but here goes...

Philo, maybe this is a problem of literature (as in how do you interpret the nature of the "characters" in a written text), but there is a question of consistency here. We know what God is like, because we have The Bible - the Word of God, his autobiography, if you like. In the Old Testament, he is a jealous and vengeful being. In the New Testament, he just wants to hold hands and smile at kittens and let bygones be bygones.

You quote the OT calls for people to kill boys and rape the young women, and the Lord commands "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women" (Ezechial 9:4-6) That doesn't sound like "sacrificial love for an enemy". And yet this same "God" sends Jesus to preach a gospel of love and forgiveness. Jesus is in effect repudiating the entire OT heritage of Yahweh, his personality, his laws, his nomination of a chosen people, etc. In fact repudiating the very god he was supposed to be the incarnation of.

In describing Christianity, you say: "All laws are human constructs made to serve society. Man was not made to serve laws, but laws were made to serve man." The Old Testament is one long statute of God's law, regulating everything from land markers, slaves, menstruation to goats and - of course - sex. Oh yes, and how to kill his version of 'infidels'. And Yahweh spent a lot of time requiring humans to serve those very laws - and punishing them for every infraction.

Or is the Old Testament NOT in fact the word of God? Is it just a human work, featuring certain middle eastern tribesmen (and they were men) trying to read the omens to interpret the personality of their protector spirit?

No doubt there is much theological sophistry accounting for this seeming conversion on the part of Yahweh, but it doesn’t work. Not for me, at any rate. Happy, though, for you to believe it if you want.

Its okay to label muslims and expect them to apologise for the actions of a bunch of deranged psychopaths; well if its good enough for muslims it should be good enough for christians. Read on.

"The label of Catholic terror was never used about the IRA

Fundamentalism is often a form of nationalism in religious disguise"

Karen Armstrong
Monday July 11, 2005
The Guardian

Last year I attended a conference in the US about security and intelligence in the so-called war on terror and was astonished to hear one of the more belligerent participants, who as far as I could tell had nothing but contempt for religion, strongly argue that as a purely practical expedient, politicians and the media must stop referring to "Muslim terrorism". It was obvious, he said, that the atrocities had nothing to do with Islam, and to suggest otherwise was not merely inaccurate but dangerously counterproductive."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/comment/story/0,16141,1525894,00.html#article_continue

Muslims DO abhor the behaviour of terrorists, read on:

"UK Fatwa to Call Bombers Unbelievers, If Proved Muslims

"Those behind this atrocity aren't just enemies of humanity but enemies of Islam and Muslims," said Sacranie.

CAIRO, July 10, 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – Britain’s top Muslim scholars are drafting a fatwa stripping those behind the grisly London blasts, if proved Muslims, from the right to call themselves Muslims, a leading British newspaper said Sunday, July 10.

Signed by dozens of prominent Muslim bodies, mosques, Islamic scholars and community groups, the religious edict will brand the attacks as a breach of the most basic tenets of Islam, reported The Independent.

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2005-07/10/article03.shtml

TIM GOODWIN.
point of order/factual error.

The references to 'wiping out' some peoples, and 'keeping the virgins for yourself', is not a suggestion in any way that they should be used for some kind of sex toy to be raped. (except to our post 60s sexual revolution dirty minds) The text does not say that, neither should you or anyone else. It says "keep them for yourselves" now, I suggest you read the Levitical pronouncements on the treatment of captives, and while it is certainly not the 'me' generation/brought up on Disney's cup of cultural/religious tea, it is certainly not what it has been portrayed as in your post.

Your 'Vengeful' OT God/Smiling at kittens 'she'll be right mate' New Testament God spin is lacking in analysis, fails to consider all the factual information, and plain wrong. The New Testament in Christ was the goal. see Jeremiah 31.31 and you might get a hint.

JOHNNY ROTTEN

Instead of going to a conference in USA, goto Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, and see how things are spun there. Delve into the true nature of Islam with those who are not in a minority status in western countries who feel they need to 'tone down' and put a happy smiley peaceful PR face on the religion.

I've detailed the root issue in Islam with factual and accurate portrayals of the 'prophet' in his dealing with infidels. See previous documented posts.

Xena said it all when she quoted Herman Goering in the other thread,
where he said (about Hitler)

"This man is our Saviour" (paraphrase)

Germans believed it, we didn't, why ? we look at
-Mass murder,
-Torture,
-Racial Supremacy.

Mohammed says "I am God's messenger" He also said if anyone even insults him, or leaves his faith, they will die.

Its about time you guys got 'real' and recognize there is a world of difference between a faith which has 'invasion/mass murder/Theft and Torture at it's core, and one which says "Love your enemies" in the FOUNDER.

As has been observed, there are no 'Fundamentalist Christian suicide bombers', but there ARE Islamic ones

OK Boaz, point taken about the Numbers quote. (And I strenuously deny being any part of a Disney generation! Whatever that might be. My upbringing had plenty of Sunday school and no Sunday Night Disney...) I stand corrected that the chapter in question only orders the sacking of all their cities, killing all men and boys (Srebrenica anyone?) and killing all women who are not virgins.

It is a fact that the OT is a book of legalistic detail and brutality - which is to be expected in the era and the circumstances in which those tribes found themselves. But the god who emerges in those pages is jealous, vengeful, allied to one tribe and keen on smiting. In the NT, he is forgiving, compassionate, self-sacrificing (literally) and universal in his message to all people. The fact that Jeremiah refers to a "new covenant" does not stop the OT god from being inconsistent with the personality of that god as portrayed in the NT.

It seems to me that many holy books, including the Bible, are baggy collections of often disparate ideas. Different people seem drawn to different corners according to personality and the times. Wasn't it Shaw who said "God created man in his own image - and man returned the favour"?

BD,

"Mohammed says if anyone even insults him they will die"

This reference is the heart of extremism propaganda, you are just using their very same sources. Neither the Koran nor his personal history have anything link that except in your 'cult like sources'.

BTW, you didn't answer my question above.

AK

OK BD,
You stated to both Xena and Tim that you wanted factual and contextual references. Well, context this for me:

Matthew 5
17: “Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but make their teachings come true.”
18: “Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with – not until the end of all things.”

So, all that is written in the Old Testament is valid. In that context, your arguments regarding the violence proposed in it must be invalid. In that context, all that you state regarding the Qu’ran must also apply to the Bible. In that context, you should then take a good long look in the mirror before criticising another faith. Your own has many holes.

As for “Its all verifiable, and subject to clear thinking scrutiny” – that is your SUBJECTIVE view of the situation. For all you – or any other person knows – Islam could be the one true religion and all us westerners are getting it wrong! Who’s to say?

Get off your high horse and try living the religion you evangelise. Your patronising, kindly tone does not hide the smugness and arrogance of your own beliefs. At no time has an Islamic proponent come to this site and attacked your faith. Seems to me, they are more believable than you. And you were a missionary?!

Xena,
Just thought I'd picked up on your hatred of men and your repulsion of pregnancy. I don't happen to believe in immaculate conception like Catholics and Muslims that so repulses you, but recognise Jesus concepton as natural, but his Divine calling was from the moment of conception to be the anointed Christ - Messiah. Your supposed insulting quote was more offensive to Ash than to me. Then you try to win his favour by agreeing with his letter in Saturday the 16th AGE. That is why I quoted the Qur'an. Be careful what you curse. Just show some respect for religious sentiments. There are blasphemy clauses of things said to defame Mary in the Qur'an.

JustDan,
The perfect Law of God is written in the hearts and conscience of men of good will, not on some Statute books. Jesus taught the commandments of God are based in acts of sacrificial love and forgivness, which is far above the human constructs of national laws. The Mosaic law was a human construct to govern a society - a nation. The law Jesus came to fulfil was the perfect law of God ie, Love God with all heart mind and strength and go far beyond the rulings of the social law in relationships with neighbours, and onself. The law of God is what emerges as the highest of aspirations in human relationships, not in merely meeting regulations and religious rituals. Read Galatians 4 and 5.

Though Jesus celebrated religious festivals he did so because he lived in that culture, not because it was the perfect law. In fact he was accused of violating the Sabbath because he picked grain on the Sabbath. So he did not fulfil that law. The Mosaic Law was a developing law for Israel, They continually added to it statutes. That was not the law that Christ came to fulfil

Philo were you on drugs when you read my post? I had to go back and reread it myself after reading your response.

No where did I say I hated men. Nor did I say I was repulsed by pregnancy.

If I agree with someone on some points I will say so. Hence my support of Ash's letter - I don't hold grudges if someone is religious or has a different POV. Also Ash has never been rude or insulting to me. He has enough intelligence to know I am targeting fundamentalists like you.

I freely admit I have derided christianity. Just as you deride those who don't share your superstitious beliefs. You see, respect goes both ways if you don't give it don't expect it back. Very arrogant if thats what you want.

If you don't believe in an immaculate conception well good for you - but I can't read minds. There are so many different versions of christianity it is impossible to know which version any one subscribes to at any given moment. Which makes me wonder, which religion IS the 'right' one.

"The perfect Law of God is written in the hearts and conscience of men of good will"

If the law of god is so perfect - where is YOUR good will? Presuming you are a man that is.

Xena/ Philo,

Spot on Xena.
The ‘right religion’ and the ‘right religion for me’ are worlds apart. One show sincerity, spirituality and respect for oneself and other humans and beings in general. The other is the foot in the door for everything evil.

Fundamentalists (from all religions) always dodge questions about whether they can accept others as they are or the rule of law. In a thread either by David Palmer or BD there was a quote that “Taliban ideology’ does not recognise earthly laws”. I asked both David and BD if they recognise earthly laws related to Palestinians occupied territories (Notice how they always refer to biblical context or ‘Israel got some of their old land’ theory). I am still waiting on an answer!

BTW, as a Muslim I believe in Jesus and his virgin birth. But that is my belief and no I am not offended neither by your comment Philo/ Xena because:
- Part of my belief is everyone is judged individually by his own deeds and intent.
- Belief or disbelief is a choice and a personal risk Just like insurance. You don’t know whether you will crash but you work a month per year to pay for a’just in case’ scenario. I have no physical evidence on Jesus virgin birth except the Koran but I chose to.

Peace Philo & ‘warrior princess’ :)

Ash

Thank you so much for your post, Ash. I am so glad that you don't take my position on religion personally. I agree it is our actions that define us and our choice in what we believe.

You might be surprised that despite my atheist views I often listen to John Cleary on the ABC on Sunday nights - I find his moderate views encouraging. Last Sunday was a plus indeed.

For those who missed it I recommend anyone to listen in regardless of their religious views.

A snippet from the ABC is below:

"Talkback: Islam and tolerance
Sunday Nights with John Cleary
Sundays 10.00 pm to 2.00 am

To talk more about this we are joined by Waleed Aly, Melbourne-based lawyer, and a member of the Executive Committee of the Islamic Council of Victoria - as well as Samina Yasmin. Samina is a Lecturer in Political Science and International Relations at U WA.

Muslim communities are feeling the pressure, again. Following the London bombings, moderate muslims are being demonised along with the jihadist extremists. And this time round the perpetrators are not wild eyed fanatics flying planes into buildings, but kids from next door. A number of the Sunday Tabloid columnists have begun to speak of the need to be more concerned about what is happening within religious communities here at home."

And what an intersting program it was.

Look forward to hearing more, Ash.

Cheers

For Philo and Xena :)

"Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie."

BOAZ DAVID - when you read my post .... READ my post. If you had you would know I was quoting Karen Armstrong when SHE attended a conference in the US about security and intelligence.

And furthermore, you would have seen this link: http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2005-07/10/article03.shtml
regarding the action Muslims are taking against terrorism.

But because you read so selectively you miss out on an awful lot. Methinks you must read the Bible and Q'uran with the same accute myopia, in fact I don't just think it your posts prove it.

"REVELATION, n. A famous book in which St. John the Divine concealed

all that he knew. The revealing is done by the commentators, who know

nothing."

FELLOW HUMAN

Well, I have to freely admit, you are right and I am wrong :) on the matter of "He also said -if anyone insults him, they must die"

I was correct about the matter of 'If anyone apostates from Islam they must die" based on the Hadith.

So, on the 'insulting' point, I offer my apology and will try to be more dilligent in accuracy in future.

In this connection though, the Imam Maalik who is used to 'bash' Ibn Ishaq as 'not credible' by Muslims wishing to avoid his account of the mass murder of Bani Qurayza, believes that those insulting the prophet should be killed.

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/Fatwa/ShowFatwa.php?lang=E&Id=9154&Option=FatwaId

BTW... u searched me ? :) I've contributed to "IslamSydney Forum" (hardly a Muslim bashing site)and Andrew Bolt forum

JUST_DAN
Smuggness and Arrogance ? thanx Dan, I need constant reminders of my failings I appreciate your call and will attempt to less arrrogant and smug.

What I say may cause distress, and pain, but my goal is that it heals rather than harms, no matter how your personally perceive it.
Dan, read the book of Acts and see how Paul debated with the Jews and the Romans.

Contextualizing Matthew 5
Dan, look closely at the structure of that chapter. Christ came to FULFIL, (give the true intention)
"you have heard 'don't commit adultery', but I say to you he who even LOOKS on a woman with lust in his heart has committed adultery with her" i.e. the Law was about 'heart' condition. (or liver if your in PNG :)
But that is off topic, which happens to be

'heads in the sand over terror'

Omran disputes any 'evil' action attributed to Bin Ladin, I'm showing WHY Omran might think like that based on the core/root of Islam.

DAN of a more serious nature is your ‘head in the sand’. There is NOTHING “subjective” about

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/024.sbt.html#002.024.577

“He cut off their hands and feet, gouged out their eyes and left them to die in the desert” <=Mohammeds dabble in “Torture

Philo,
If that is the true interpretation, then why isn’t is being practiced? So much so that fundamentalists troll through the Bible for their beliefs. Example: It is the Old Testament that denounces homosexuality. Other than the ‘old law’, where does a Christian prove that homosexuality is wrong? On your statement, the perfect law of God, written in the hearts of good men would say that take each person as you find him/her and treat them with respect and dignity. Somehow I think the Christian church has forgotten this little bit of your interpretation of ‘God’s law’.

Xena/Ash
I whole heartedly agree with you both. I’ve become a little emotional about this subject over the last 3-4 weeks and I think it is starting to come out in my responses to BD’s various threads (he just can’t seem to leave it alone anywhere he goes! It even pops up in IR reforms? Go figure…). Actions are the only definition of a person. Faith and belief are personal and not to be pushed, touted or ridiculed by another. If a church/faith grows, so be it.

I think one of the most important philosophies to come from our great joint heritage is that church and state are separate (Ash can you advise me a little on the Islamic thoughts on this?). This is becoming lost in the modern world as all sides try to achieve a supremacy that has nothing to do with faith – just power and money… a sad bastardisation of what religion is all about.

Peace and Happiness to everyone…

OK, BD – let’s look at Hadith No. 234, Vol. 1. (Thanks for the link!)
…Some people came to Medina and were given a gift (of camels), so what do they do? Kill the shepherd and drive off the camels. So, in response, what happens? They are killed after some torture.

Now, how is this different from the death penalty in some current Christian countries? Sure torture seems to be a little rough. But then that never stopped the Inquisition, nor did help during the Salem witch-hunts (we will leave current practices in Iraq – sure the leadership didn’t authorise it…’wink’, ‘wink’…). All more recent and just as ‘temporally valid’.

Now, I know you will refer to Christ and his new message. I think you have gone beyond any good logic here. So, it’s OK to interpret the Bible one way (to your best advantage) and not OK to interpret the Islamic texts in a similar way? BD, you have double standards. That is quite clear. No amount of posturing on your part as to the worth of the Bible and conflict in the Islamic texts will help. Double standards. So, no, my head is not ‘in the sand’. Your’s appears to be blinded by a ‘sandstorm of faith’ though.

I do not deny there is somewhat of a crisis in the Islamic faith. Like the Christians, they have a number of schools of thought. Unlike the Christians in the 1600’s, they can’t take their faith and move to a new world (i.e. the Puritans did). So they deal with it as they can. Western power-mongering and Imperialism-by-stealth has taken care of that. Some of it is not right and some of it is a personal choice. But your crusade to negate Islam’s worth is no more valid than the crusades of the bombers or the Christians who killed during the Inquisition and witch-hunts. Once you get this, then there may be true dialog. Good luck.

Thanks JR for pointing us in the direction of the gospel according to Ambrose ;). I think this one is relevant to this discussion:

RELIGION, n.

A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable.

"What is your religion my son?" inquired the Archbishop of Rheims.

"Pardon, monseigneur," replied Rochebriant; "I am ashamed of it."

"Then why do you not become an atheist?"

"Impossible! I should be ashamed of atheism."

"In that case, monsieur, you should join the Protestants."

Given the number of times it is referred to by Boaz, I think it is about time we took a closer look at the gospel of Matthew. In what way is this document, whose origins are still obscure and the subject of continual scholarly dispute, sufficiently authoritative to be used in this manner? It is fine, if you are that way inclined, to see it as some form of abstract distillation of the genesis of a particular faith, recorded some time afterwards as a form of operational handbook. But to use it as a stick with which to beat up other faiths is stretching its utility a little.

Can you help here Boaz? It is only fair, since you rely upon it so much, to give us a run-down on its history, authenticity and validity?

I think you are in the wrong forum here, Pericles- this is the one the connection between Islam and terror- not about Matthew/Boaz David/Christianity.

I found something quite disturbing on www.islam-qa.com

"Question #12708: Is it acceptable to marry a girl who has not yet started her menses?

Answer: Marriage to a young girl before she reaches puberty is permissible according to sharee’ah, and it was narrated that there was scholarly consensus on this point."

"Question #27305: Is it permissible to marry a thirteen year old girl?

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) married ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) when she was six years old, and he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine, and at that time he was over fifty."

There is much more but it makes me sick to even read it so I will not
disturb you by posting it. Bring on the cries of how hateful I am, but I'm not sorry for being appalled at this 'prophet's' behaviour.

Xena you speak of Christianity as a 'repressive' religion in regards to your 'place as a woman'. Yet you defend Islam until you are blue in the face... you don't see the irony there?

Ibn Katheer said:

It means the man is in charge of the woman; he is her leader, the ruler over her who disciplines her if she goes astray.

“because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other” means, because men are superior to woman, and a man is better than a woman. Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as is the role of caliph, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No people will ever prosper who appoint a woman in charge of them.”
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=20677&dgn=

In regards to 'moderate' Islam, check this out: "Whatever is in accordance with sharee’ah is moderate; whatever exceeds that is extreme and whatever falls short of that is laxity."
(Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen)

David (PERICLES) I sent you a link which covers the topic comprehensively mate. (Matthew) I have a high confidence level on the reliability of the communicated material, believe it or not, the existence and nature of the Islamic Hadith actually supports the reliability of oral tradition over generations. (do some study :)

JUSTDAN. I feel I should devote the rest of this post to you alone.
I'm sensing that as you say, you are becoming rather emotionally involved in the thread, but I'm not sure from which angle.
In all seriousness Dan, I suspect that you are a very caring and sensitive person, and that somehow your appreciation of the Christian faith is somehow being threatened or upset by my own manner.
Dan, to deal with the issues raised by your post would take quite a bit of time. Here are the main things I note:

-You freely admit that the prophet of Islam 'tortured' people (evildoers yes, but torture none the less) at least now you are knowing that I speak factually.

What I don't understand, is how you can then just dismiss it as not important for a man who claims to be Gods Messenger, the final voice, the ultimate one ? Unless you expect Gods messengers to torture as the norm.

Then, I noted that you compared this with the other goings on in the world, Dan, thats where your line of reasoning is erring mate.

We are speaking here about a momentus issue, being the validity of a self proclaimed Prophet's words to be the 'ONE' final messanger from Almighty God. Dan, we believe Christ is God the Son, Lord of lords, King of Kings, God manifest in the flesh no less, and the reason we believe so, is His life 'and' ministry. When any person makes claims to divine authority, we test them. Example Joseph Smith, made similar claims to Mohammed, yet most of us except Mormons reject him, and with good reason.

Dan, your dismissal of 'torture' and even Mass murder (same source) as unimportant are a worry to me, please re-think this.

Muslim states are the most severe persecutors of Christians and radical Muslim extremists are the most vicious terrorists, hijackers, kidnappers, suicide bombers and assassins in the world today.

MUSLIM MYTHS
Yet Muslims, and their public relations agents and apologists, claim that Islam is a great religion of learning and tolerance. I have heard Muslim Imams of the Islamic Propagation Centre International declare in the mosque in Durban that Muslims are “more Jewish than the Jews and more Christian than the Christians!”

All over the world, repeatedly, Muslims claim Islam to be superior to Christianity. “You Christians are so divided. We Muslims are all united. You have so many denominations, but we Muslims are all one. In Islam there is perfect unity.” And “Christianity is a religion for the Whites only, Islam is the Black man's religion.”; “There is no racism in Islam, we are all one in Islam.” “You Christians have so many Bibles, and you keep changing the Bible, but we Muslims have only one Qur’an, and it has never been changed.”

__________________________________________

The Fatwa received by Frontline Ministries.

The following is part of the fax from a Muslim who stated that the Frontline Fellowship News, which responds to Islamic accusations against Christians, (the journalist) "should be eliminated from the face of this earth. you are worthy of death, not by stoning, but to be cut up piece by piece and your remains given to dogs and hyenas." The letter includes vile insults, crude swear words, threatens "retribution" for having insulted the "two billion adherents to this mighty and great religion, the perfect and final religion of the almighty" and "the holy prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)". The letter threatens that "the Fatwa will definitely come for you." It concludes with these words: "Go burn in hell. Long live Islam, Amandla Islam".

>>Xena you speak of Christianity as a 'repressive' religion in regards to your 'place as a woman'. Yet you defend Islam until you are blue in the face... you don't see the irony there?<<

EM – I decry hypocrisy – the hypocrisy as demonstrated by people such as BD, philo when they claim that Islam is ALL bad and Christianity is ALL good.

All these sad little men are able to do is pull every rank little piece they can find in the Koran and hold it up as though this explains terrorism – it falls far short and only reveals their hypocrisy. Not once have these men attempted to work with or assist Muslims in eliminating the extremists who are poisoning their religion and murdering them along with other innocent people. This is hypocrisy.

All I am doing is the same thing except I am finding them in the Old and new testaments. QUID PRO QUO.

I am also offering my hand in friendship to people who are as appalled by terrorism as am I. Muslims in our country must be feeling very vulnerable now because of all the hate that is being directed towards them.

Let me put this as clearly as I can – I AM AN ATHEIST. I have stated this previously but I’m not sure that I am getting through. I believe all religions are repressive towards women and not a few men.

On this forum, I have not been personally attacked by anyone claiming to be a Muslim. However the insults have flown thick and fast from those who claim to follow Christ.

Why is this happening?

I don’t know, however I will defend rational reasonable people whether they be from interstellar space or from the local mosque or church or synagogue.

The attacks on me here have been vicious in the extreme.

Can I see the irony? You betcha – people who claim to love Jesus viciously attacking others for their beliefs. It is sadly ironic and very delusional.

BD,

I thought you promised no more cheap shots!
You just admitted that you read all the proper meanings interpretation yet you chose the worse context. With knowledge comes a moral obligation if you really believe in anything, unless you are telling me that you would do anything for the purpose.

You have a problem with the concept of punishment in Islam for some reason beyond my understanding.
Maybe we should all go ‘love’ rapists and murderers. Anyway, I moved on.

But what I don’t understand is this: how can you claim to find Jesus’ claims in the Qu’ran offending to your beliefs when the very same quotes are in the Bible? Do you find the bible offending to you as well?

All what the Qu’ran is talking about is the commandments, which commandment exactly do you find ‘offensive’ to your faith?
In fact, the Qu’ran promises reward for good believers who are Jews, Christians or Sabeans (neither) that they should have no fear of judgment day. How do you compare that to your teachings where any non-baptised person will not see heaven? Or the Jewish teachings that Heaven is exclusive to Jews?
Why hate Islam when it is the belief to yours and you go and market the ‘Judea Christian’ doctrine which is the second most offensive thing to every Jew I know after you call their Torah the “old Testament”?

Philo/ JustDan,

“Muslims claim superiority over Christianity” is a false statement. It might be the case of some nutters on the Muslims side, but the Qu’ran loves Christians and followers of Jesus as you have read. The only thing God criticises Christians for is toying with/ blurring the first commandment “God is One” with the introduction of the Trinity doctrine.

Xena,

I am going to Sinai next week for a windsurfing holiday with my atheists (sabeans) friends. I love them all and I don’t get offended when in prayer time they start laughing ‘poor crazy Ash’:):)
Take care my friend you are a good soul! (oops, I am ‘judging’ you now:)

Ash,
What I have written about Muslims does not apply to you as a person of respect. I speak to the nature of a religion / idiology that in some quarters fosters violence, rape, murder etc. So do not assume I hate you, I don’t! I along with most rational persons hate murder done in the name of the Justice of Allah. My belief is that the individual must be totally free and morally educated to make responsible decisions for which they can be fully accountable, and it is upon the decisions they make that will bless or curse them in the day of reckoning of their life. After death the judgment, and death itself is not the judgment.

BD and myself can respect your intelligent and gracious contributions. I can recognise many violent and fallacious events done in the name of Christ. However I believe that true followers of Christ who bow to his wisdom will never act with violence. This is evident from the witness of many Christian families that lived under USSR atheistic rule, when parents watched their children tortured and murdered before their eyes because they as parents would not denounce their faith in God. They endured the terrible torture.

I trust that the wind fills your sails, and the exhilaration of the experience in Sinai is very pleasurable. Keep safe.

Blessing

Xena write:

"On this forum, I have not been personally attacked by anyone claiming to be a Muslim. However the insults have flown thick and fast from those who claim to follow Christ. Why is this happening?"

Maybe its because you choose to defend Muslims and dish it out to the Christians. Every athiest I know is a rebel against the claims of Jesus Christ and hates Christians - you seem to fit that mould.

Again Xena writes: "Muslims in our country must be feeling very vulnerable now because of all the hate that is being directed towards them."

You may well be right Xena but spare a thought for the victims of the London bombing and their families, Salman Rushdie who still has a fatwa hanging over him, the 2.5 million southern Sudanese who have died as a result of the attempt of their Government to impose Sharia law on them. Take off the blinkers.

Ash, I did not promise no cheap shots :) all my shots are expensive, trust me.
I used the hadith to try to get to Dans method of reasoning. I use them also for you, not as a cheap shot. The significance of such events is extremely important when one considers the situation, but enough about that for now. I've made my point adequately I think.

XENA

But dear dear Xena..my my... (shakes head in bewilderment)

"insults have flown thick and fast from those who claim to follow Christ"

"The attacks on me here have been vicious in the extreme"

Are you referring to 'ME' ? I think your description of my questioning of your powers of reasoning (based on very substantive evidence from your own keyboard) hardly constitutes 'vicious in the extreme attacks and insults flowing thick and fast"

Now that I've witnessed this rather 'colorful' portrayal of my approach, I would call you to account for it. If what I've said is as you described, I am breathless to think how you would describe REAL insults and vicious attacks. I could work on it and come up with some if you like :)

I still (and will 4ever) question the reasoning processes of one who

a) Uses Herman Goering as an example of a deluded fool, misguided as to the true nature of Hitler, and

b) Condemns myself and Philo for doing the exact same thing in regard to MOhammed, when we draw attention to atrocities perpetrated by him.

c) Ignores my continual reference to 'Christ and His disciples' rather than dubious extracts from the darker side of history where Christs name was used very blasphemously for very carnal actions.

If you consider 'disagreeing with you in a rather 'factual' way' to be 'vicious attacks and insults galore, there is not much I can say to change that so I won't.

You speak from a secular/atheist viewpoint Xena, Ash and I and Philo speak from faith viewpoints. There is a difference.

Hypocricy, me ? :) guilty as charged. you ?

Ash all the best on your travels. You have successfully avoided being baited by the nasties on this forum - admirable restraint.

David Palmer: the terrorists are not selective on who they attack. I grieve for all victims.

BD - you are such a sensitive little petal - Philo has been particularly vicious - I am sure he wouldn't talk to his wife the way he writes to me. You have just continually misunderstood the thrust of my posts eg; Goering was a Christian.

To all whose comprehension is a little slow - I am not defending Islam per se. I am appalled by the many christians to this forum who (and I have said this before) believe by quoting the worst of Islam they are proving that Islam is especially hostile. It is no more or less hostile than any other religion.

I think I should have taken the same route as Garra and just quoted LOTR. Clearly my posts would have been equally misunderstood. I am reminded of a little poem and given the utter pointlessness of the extreme Christians posters it seems most appropriate.

"One fine day,
In the middle of the night,
Two dead men got up to fight.
Back to back they faced each other.
Drew their swords and
Shot each other

BD
On the issue of torture.
You claim that Mohammed was wrong as Gods messenger to toture – however has been repeatedly raised in these threads – Christians were quite willing to torture for years (Inquisition, witch-hunts) and continue to allow it to happen around the world (current day Iraq).

I never denied any of the writings in the Qu’ran. I simply highlight that you are a student of Christianity and have no reasonable basis for interpreting another’s religion. Yes, you have experienced it – from a missionaries point of view. Until you deal with it with an open heart and open mind, you have no credibility to criticise it. No matter what you claim.

Me making comparisons with this world
I would disagree with you on this point BD. If I cannot compare the current acts of a person with the faith and the faith’s response, then how does one judge the faith for it’s worth. You say look to Jesus and his Disciples. I say that I want to see truth before hypocrisy. Very far apart right now.

As to belief in prophets, well, that comes back to the basic, what do I want to believe. You say Christ is lord, God incarnate. Muslims say otherwise. If that’s the basis for your argument, it holds no water. The fact that Jesus acted in a certain way may be nice, but that is no basis for decided who was Gods messenger and who wasn’t. Again it comes down to choice. You’ll just have to try to accept that.

Cont...

Finally, I do not dismiss torture and mass murder as unimportant. I see them in a less biased and more contextual light than you. To me it is history. Ifran and Ash have already shown to me that some Muslims aren’t extremists and I know a number of others who are. And that are OK with the fact that I am ‘infidel’. In fact, it’s almost a friendly joke between us.

So, BD, when the Catholic church goes after those who committed similar crimes in Bosnia and about, when Christians turn to their leaders and say you are no longer worthy as you lied to us, when people put humans rather than money and power first, I may then believe God has a hand in this world. Until then, God is my friend but no lord over me.

Ash,
I never believed Islam was superior to Christianity. I don’t believe anyone is superior to anyone else. The sooner everyone comes to this understanding I believe we will work better together.

Peace and Tolerance.. is it too much to ask?

I found this posting on the Herald Sun Website:

Taher Taiba:

"...I am a Muslim and am Lebanese (27 years old) and I just want to let everyone here know that I and many like me care not one iota what any of you think of us. See, you can all spew your hatred of us, can condemn us until the cows come home, but ultimately you all cannot do anything to us. That's the reality, no matter how much outrage you feel it will not amount to anything. Our imams will continue to preach, we will still view Osama as a hero and no matter how much pressure you put, you will not be abe to stop this unless you are prepared to either arrest us all or deport us all, which we both know is not possibly, especially since we have such vast numbers here already.

You can stop all immigration of Muslim but that will not work either, as Muslims like me here will just produce more offspring and that will keep increasing our numbers. I have 3 children and want more. I advise you all to stop your hatred and ignorance, and listen to our grievances, otherwise the very thing that you write about will occur, that is, we Muslims will just continue to form our own communities where we will reject any notion of assimilating with you guys knowing full well that all your talk can not amount to much in substance. You gonna arrest me, descriminate against me, deport me? Go ahead, do that if you can find me. See, I have blue eyes, fair skin and brown hair, I look identical to my neighbor but hold totally different views as you can tell.

Heed my advice, otherwise you will just succeeed in driving me and many like me to become your enemies thus tearing Australia apart from the inside. Don't say we never warned you."

At: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16021757%255E25717,00.html

Dear Em

Thank you for alerting posters to that possibly dangerous young man of Muslim faith. In a post to Online Opinion a little while ago I suggested that there could be "sleepers" here [overall Online I mean]. Nobody challenged that this could be a possibility. Well Taher Taiba has said it all!

I would like to hear from Waleed, Irfan and Fellow_Human and others of the same persuasion now - it does not matter what thread.

I wondered if he could be a "poser" to set up racist views and violence and other stuff? Hardly. I think that the newspaper intelligencia would have done their homework.

If this person is for real - I am really scared for my family's children.

Fellow Posters,
From estimations done of extremist Muslims here in Sydney who could perform acts of violence, they say about 1,500 hold such views. I have heard several on Talk Back Radio who claim that there are clear justifications to kill infidels and they, when asked stated, "Yes I could kill those who blaspheme Allah and His Laws. My allegiance is first to Allah above any family or any national commitments".

Fellow Posters

Not all terrorists are Muslims, sure there are the Tamil Tigers however, to provide some semblance of balance on this thread I submit the following:

Christian Terrorists Kill 44, Wound 118 in Attacks in Northeast India
GUWAHATI, India (AFP)
October 2, 2004

Some 44 people were killed and 118 wounded in three nearly simultaneous bomb blasts Saturday morning in Dimapur, Nagaland's commercial hub, in what a top official called the "worst ever terrorist strike" in the tiny state's history.
…………………………The armed insurgency in Nagaland began soon after much of the local population converted to Christianity. Many militant groups, seeking to secede from India to form an independent Christian state, are funded and armed by the Southern Baptist Church. Some of the groups such as the National Liberation Front of Tripura have been involved in a campaign of “gunpoint conversions” and “ethnic cleansing” of native non-Christians, which has left over 50,000 dead and many more refugees over the past two decades.

http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/1995/may95/oklahoma.html
When extremists from predominantly Moslem countries commit violence, many in the media refer to them as "Islamic terrorists." Why is no one calling the Oklahoma City bombing suspects "Christian terrorists"?
The militias being investigated are called simply "right-wing" and "anti-government," but these hate groups, like the Ku Klux Klan, all have bible-based agendas. Timothy McVeigh is a Catholic. The Oklahoma City bomb was detonated on the anniversary of the raid on David Koresh's Christian militia in Waco.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/12/10/waagner/index_np.html

In late 2001, antiabortion fanatic Clayton Waagner used packets of bogus anthrax to shut down scores of clinics nationwide. When he was convicted last week, the press was notably absent.

all in the name of the antiabortion Army of God. Doctors, staffers, clients and their families were terrified, and hundreds of clinics were shut down. That made Clayton Waagner a celebrity, of sorts, and to some, a hero.

And there's more.....

And furthermore Fellow Posters,

http://www.presence.tv/cms/soc-soldiers.php
Christian soldiers are arising all over the world. Christian militants in Northeast India funded and supported by Christians from New Zealand, Australia, and the United States have attacked, kidnapped and killed numerous people in Tripura in hopes of establishing a Christian state. The leading organization, the National Liberation Front of Tripura, has garnered the nickname “THE CHRISTIAN AL-QAEDA.” The United States State Department describes the situation: “Hindu organizations frequently alleged that Christian missionaries force Hindus, particularly those of lower castes, to convert to Christianity………………………….. ……………………………………………..In April 1995, Timothy McVeigh bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. His interpretation of Christian faith contributed to his motivation. Reverend Paul Hill, former Presbyterian minister and associate of Mike Bray, was convicted and executed for murdering an abortion doctor. He confessed to being prompted by his Christian theology.[vi] An organization closely associated with Hill, Army of God, calls him “an American Hero.”[vii] In 1999, Buford Furrow, in an initiation rite into the “Phineas Priesthood” opened fire on a Jewish community center and shot several people including three children under the age of six.

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=2985pvwcijbax?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Christian+Identity&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc03a
Christian Identity is a label applied to a wide variety of loosely-affiliated groups …….. with a racialized theology. Most of them promote a militant white supremacist and neo-Nazi version of Christianity. Their key commonality is British Israelism theology, which teaches that white Europeans are the literal descendants of the Israelites, and that the Israelites are still God's "Chosen People". There are estimated to be about 50,000 adherents of these groups in the United States of America………………………………….Interpreting the Book of Genesis, many Christian Identity followers assert that Adam and Eve were preceded by other, lesser races, identified as "the beasts of the field" (Gen. 1:25)………………………………… A relatively new tenet gaining popularity among Christian Identity believers justifies the use of violence if it is perpetrated in order to punish violators of God's law, as found in the Bible and interpreted by Christian Identity ministers and adherents.

Be afraid, very afraid.

Wrong thread, Johnny.

For Johnny Rotten, sake there is only 9% of Australians who attend Christian Churches regularly, and about 70% who have sympathies to Christian values. I am not sure what we can do to stop the persecution of Christians and by Christian rebel responses in other countries. However if he knows of any Christian organisations plotting acts of violence against persons in Australia he contact the National Security Hotline. I would like to know if the formation of these militia are as a result of continuous killings and violence done against them and this is their response to save their families.

Under no circumstances do I condone violence. But my reaction might be different if my family were continually threatened by violence.

Johnny.... your interesting posts always provide food for thought.
Now I know a lot more about the situation in Nagaland than I did before I read your post.

The other side of the Nagaland coin.

<StartQuote:>
Refugee women described how Indian troops had arrived in their village on 6 September 1960 searching for the Home Guard and the four captive Indian airmen. We were all rounded up and the men separated from the women. Our men were forced to run the gauntlet of Indian troops armed with Sticks, Then they were kicked like footballs, as they lay helpless on the ground. Three men died then one of them a travelling pastor.

Later we women were told to run into the jungle and scatter. Afterwards we heard survivors that most of men had been shot "trying to escape" We were about 120 men and women before the Indian patrol arrived. There are thirty survivors, only three of them men. All our crops were burnt. How can we dare go back?
<EndQuote>

Now, before you rush to judgement, please ask yourself how you yourself might react if you and your family were subjected to the same treatment.

But as I say in all my posts where relevant "Compare with the teaching and life of Christ"

and we find "If your enemy forces you to go one mile, go with him a second. If he takes your cloak, give him your robe also" etc...

So, there is your foundation for evaluating any human behavior which is aledged to be 'in His name'. The interpretation of such sayings is more complex than I've simplistically put it, but 350wds.

For the record, in regard to the Muslim rebellion and insurgency in Southern Philippines.. strange as it may seem coming from "this anti Muslim crusader" as I'm termed (in fact I'm an Anti 'ISLAM' apologist) I SUPPORT their asipirations for independance.. why ? simple I know the history and as much as I condemn the 'Javanization' of Irian Jaya by transmigration, I also condemn the 'Catholicisation' of the Muslim south for the same reasons.