David (PERICLES) I sent you a link which covers the topic comprehensively mate. (Matthew) I have a high confidence level on the reliability of the communicated material, believe it or not, the existence and nature of the Islamic Hadith actually supports the reliability of oral tradition over generations. (do some study :)

JUSTDAN. I feel I should devote the rest of this post to you alone.
I'm sensing that as you say, you are becoming rather emotionally involved in the thread, but I'm not sure from which angle.
In all seriousness Dan, I suspect that you are a very caring and sensitive person, and that somehow your appreciation of the Christian faith is somehow being threatened or upset by my own manner.
Dan, to deal with the issues raised by your post would take quite a bit of time. Here are the main things I note:

-You freely admit that the prophet of Islam 'tortured' people (evildoers yes, but torture none the less) at least now you are knowing that I speak factually.

What I don't understand, is how you can then just dismiss it as not important for a man who claims to be Gods Messenger, the final voice, the ultimate one ? Unless you expect Gods messengers to torture as the norm.

Then, I noted that you compared this with the other goings on in the world, Dan, thats where your line of reasoning is erring mate.

We are speaking here about a momentus issue, being the validity of a self proclaimed Prophet's words to be the 'ONE' final messanger from Almighty God. Dan, we believe Christ is God the Son, Lord of lords, King of Kings, God manifest in the flesh no less, and the reason we believe so, is His life 'and' ministry. When any person makes claims to divine authority, we test them. Example Joseph Smith, made similar claims to Mohammed, yet most of us except Mormons reject him, and with good reason.

Dan, your dismissal of 'torture' and even Mass murder (same source) as unimportant are a worry to me, please re-think this.

Muslim states are the most severe persecutors of Christians and radical Muslim extremists are the most vicious terrorists, hijackers, kidnappers, suicide bombers and assassins in the world today.

MUSLIM MYTHS
Yet Muslims, and their public relations agents and apologists, claim that Islam is a great religion of learning and tolerance. I have heard Muslim Imams of the Islamic Propagation Centre International declare in the mosque in Durban that Muslims are “more Jewish than the Jews and more Christian than the Christians!”

All over the world, repeatedly, Muslims claim Islam to be superior to Christianity. “You Christians are so divided. We Muslims are all united. You have so many denominations, but we Muslims are all one. In Islam there is perfect unity.” And “Christianity is a religion for the Whites only, Islam is the Black man's religion.”; “There is no racism in Islam, we are all one in Islam.” “You Christians have so many Bibles, and you keep changing the Bible, but we Muslims have only one Qur’an, and it has never been changed.”

__________________________________________

The Fatwa received by Frontline Ministries.

The following is part of the fax from a Muslim who stated that the Frontline Fellowship News, which responds to Islamic accusations against Christians, (the journalist) "should be eliminated from the face of this earth. you are worthy of death, not by stoning, but to be cut up piece by piece and your remains given to dogs and hyenas." The letter includes vile insults, crude swear words, threatens "retribution" for having insulted the "two billion adherents to this mighty and great religion, the perfect and final religion of the almighty" and "the holy prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)". The letter threatens that "the Fatwa will definitely come for you." It concludes with these words: "Go burn in hell. Long live Islam, Amandla Islam".

>>Xena you speak of Christianity as a 'repressive' religion in regards to your 'place as a woman'. Yet you defend Islam until you are blue in the face... you don't see the irony there?<<

EM – I decry hypocrisy – the hypocrisy as demonstrated by people such as BD, philo when they claim that Islam is ALL bad and Christianity is ALL good.

All these sad little men are able to do is pull every rank little piece they can find in the Koran and hold it up as though this explains terrorism – it falls far short and only reveals their hypocrisy. Not once have these men attempted to work with or assist Muslims in eliminating the extremists who are poisoning their religion and murdering them along with other innocent people. This is hypocrisy.

All I am doing is the same thing except I am finding them in the Old and new testaments. QUID PRO QUO.

I am also offering my hand in friendship to people who are as appalled by terrorism as am I. Muslims in our country must be feeling very vulnerable now because of all the hate that is being directed towards them.

Let me put this as clearly as I can – I AM AN ATHEIST. I have stated this previously but I’m not sure that I am getting through. I believe all religions are repressive towards women and not a few men.

On this forum, I have not been personally attacked by anyone claiming to be a Muslim. However the insults have flown thick and fast from those who claim to follow Christ.

Why is this happening?

I don’t know, however I will defend rational reasonable people whether they be from interstellar space or from the local mosque or church or synagogue.

The attacks on me here have been vicious in the extreme.

Can I see the irony? You betcha – people who claim to love Jesus viciously attacking others for their beliefs. It is sadly ironic and very delusional.

BD,

I thought you promised no more cheap shots!
You just admitted that you read all the proper meanings interpretation yet you chose the worse context. With knowledge comes a moral obligation if you really believe in anything, unless you are telling me that you would do anything for the purpose.

You have a problem with the concept of punishment in Islam for some reason beyond my understanding.
Maybe we should all go ‘love’ rapists and murderers. Anyway, I moved on.

But what I don’t understand is this: how can you claim to find Jesus’ claims in the Qu’ran offending to your beliefs when the very same quotes are in the Bible? Do you find the bible offending to you as well?

All what the Qu’ran is talking about is the commandments, which commandment exactly do you find ‘offensive’ to your faith?
In fact, the Qu’ran promises reward for good believers who are Jews, Christians or Sabeans (neither) that they should have no fear of judgment day. How do you compare that to your teachings where any non-baptised person will not see heaven? Or the Jewish teachings that Heaven is exclusive to Jews?
Why hate Islam when it is the belief to yours and you go and market the ‘Judea Christian’ doctrine which is the second most offensive thing to every Jew I know after you call their Torah the “old Testament”?

Philo/ JustDan,

“Muslims claim superiority over Christianity” is a false statement. It might be the case of some nutters on the Muslims side, but the Qu’ran loves Christians and followers of Jesus as you have read. The only thing God criticises Christians for is toying with/ blurring the first commandment “God is One” with the introduction of the Trinity doctrine.

Xena,

I am going to Sinai next week for a windsurfing holiday with my atheists (sabeans) friends. I love them all and I don’t get offended when in prayer time they start laughing ‘poor crazy Ash’:):)
Take care my friend you are a good soul! (oops, I am ‘judging’ you now:)

Ash,
What I have written about Muslims does not apply to you as a person of respect. I speak to the nature of a religion / idiology that in some quarters fosters violence, rape, murder etc. So do not assume I hate you, I don’t! I along with most rational persons hate murder done in the name of the Justice of Allah. My belief is that the individual must be totally free and morally educated to make responsible decisions for which they can be fully accountable, and it is upon the decisions they make that will bless or curse them in the day of reckoning of their life. After death the judgment, and death itself is not the judgment.

BD and myself can respect your intelligent and gracious contributions. I can recognise many violent and fallacious events done in the name of Christ. However I believe that true followers of Christ who bow to his wisdom will never act with violence. This is evident from the witness of many Christian families that lived under USSR atheistic rule, when parents watched their children tortured and murdered before their eyes because they as parents would not denounce their faith in God. They endured the terrible torture.

I trust that the wind fills your sails, and the exhilaration of the experience in Sinai is very pleasurable. Keep safe.

Blessing

Xena write:

"On this forum, I have not been personally attacked by anyone claiming to be a Muslim. However the insults have flown thick and fast from those who claim to follow Christ. Why is this happening?"

Maybe its because you choose to defend Muslims and dish it out to the Christians. Every athiest I know is a rebel against the claims of Jesus Christ and hates Christians - you seem to fit that mould.

Again Xena writes: "Muslims in our country must be feeling very vulnerable now because of all the hate that is being directed towards them."

You may well be right Xena but spare a thought for the victims of the London bombing and their families, Salman Rushdie who still has a fatwa hanging over him, the 2.5 million southern Sudanese who have died as a result of the attempt of their Government to impose Sharia law on them. Take off the blinkers.