Boaz_David. Even Handed, my context regardless of formal definitions is an attempt to use the same rules/measures to all sides of a discussion.

If those who going under the name of "christian" behave in a manner which could bring your god into disrepute are not really christian then it would be fair to give the muslim faith the same benefit of the doubt. If it is OK to determine that sections of the Bible are not literal when they are inconvenient in that context then selected quotes from the Koran should get the same benefit.

To do otherwise is to use "dishonest scales".

One of the positions I take in life is a passion for fairness. Even if life is not fair I can do my best to be fair in my actions and choices. Being what I call even handed is not about taking "no position in life", it is rather a consequence of taking a position.

Davo, garra and I have been on different sides of exchanges where I would find it easy to share your view. In this instance he appears to be trying to deal with the issues fairly. Whilst I might pay attention to views expressed in other posts for context I think that the forum works a lot better if each post is dealt with mostly on it's own merrits. All of us will have issues which we deal with more strongly than others.

R0bert

Have a read of the posts and consider how they would look to someone who is neither christian or muslim.

Philo,

I thought you are at least reasonable enough to see what happened in Victoria is ‘actual vilification’. If I see a muslim Imam who pick on Lot story in the bible and use it in a mosque to claim that Christianity preaches incest relations I would report him as vilifying others’ faith. That is exactly what these priests did (by the way, I read the whole 110 pages pdf file, it is all full of ignorance and intentional misleading to poor followers of the Christian faith)…but hey…it is OK for them to lie I guess. New teaching: hate and offend others in the morning and say God is love at night. They just need to practice what they preach.

Have a great life,
www.reachinghuman.blogspot.com

Hey Irfan,

If Islam is so 'peaceful' then name twenty Islamic countries that are not plagued with conflict and respect human rights. If you can't then why should'nt I cautious about Islam?

Rob,
I don't know of any of the bible which is 'inconvenient'. I know a lot which is misconstrued and misinterpreted, e.g "Jesus said "Do you think I came to bring peace ? no, I came to turn brother against brother, father against son, etc etc" Or.. "If you eye causes you to sin, GOUGE it out" etc..... "If your hand causes you to sin CUT IT OFF" etc.. it goes on. Failure to understand culture and history could lead one to very WRONG conclusions about what Jesus was saying/meaning.

IRFAN

No, I don't consider you as part of a world wide 'concious' conspiracy any more than you would regard me as such. But we are both members of faiths which have foundations and goals. Based on the 'fundamentals' of those faiths, we have certain objectives/hopes/aspirations. Yours, whether you admit it or not would be to see Australia as an Islamic republic, through conversion of course :) Mine is to see Christ glorified in every life, by conversion ONLY. Perhaps you are a 'cultural' Muslim who identifies with his faith because he was born with it, I could be wrong :) but I challenge you to consider what would happen to you among your ethnic/religious community if you ever announced "Hi folks, I've become a Christian"

This is why I have been harping on about the 'essential basic foundation'of the 2 faiths. Ash has 'got it' from day one I think, because now he is beginning to defend 'Islam'.

Islam is not 'just' about people having faith. The new world MOhammed attempted to create was a TOTAL package, including the Divine RULE of government and every social more including how to tie your SANDALS.

Jesus did not need to 'defend' himself from opposition, His word was enough, He came to die... for us, that we might live, eternally.
He said 'You must be born again'..... and unless we are, we will not see God.

GARRA,
you have yet to answer my question raised in the last post, about finding evidence of personal attacks on others in my posts.

ASH (fellow human)

with regard to your statement of "actual vilification". I suggest you re-think that, and do 2 things.

1/ Read the ACTUAL TRANSCRIPT of the proceedings (Catch the fire) and find the contribution of a poster here who showed CLEARLY by comparing the transcript with the Judges quoting of it that he is IN ERROR. The difference in meaning is vilification/non vilification so it is quite important legally.

2/ Read Mark Durrie's witness statement and see the research he has done on Islamic education in Victoria. You might be surprised (unless you know all this and have been keeping it quiet :)

If you wonder why we are so passionate about these things, read "Surah 9:29

Fight against those who do not believe in Allah nor in the Last Day, and do not make forbidden what Allah and His Messenger have made forbidden, and do not practice the religion of truth, of those who have been given the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians], until they pay the jizya [head tax] readily and are HUMBLED.

(emphasis mine)
The meaning of 'humbled' in Pakistan means Christians get the jobs of street sweepers etc. Ash, I accept what you said about Egypt, its not the same as Pakistan, but the Quran is the same.

How does Islam view Christians ? read below.

[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

WHAT.... is the penalty for 'blasphemy' (calling Christ 'Son of God') in Pakistan ? why its the DEATH penalty !
WHERE.... did they obtain the justification for this ? The Quran

1. How does Islam view other religions
It is regulated (2:62, 29:46) “those who have believed-and the Jews, the Christians, the Sabaeans, those who believe in God, the Last Day (Of Judgment) and do good works-stand to be rewarded by God. NO fear or grief shall befall them.” This is the rule where Islam interacted with other religions throughout history until today (with the exception of Wahabbies in Saudi). In fact, Christians in Egypt have their own civil court as in their religious belief divorce is not allowed like for us muslims.

2. Islamic religion, encompassing both spiritual and material regulated the state revenue (tax system) on two fronts: the alms (Zakat) paid by muslims and the Gizyah (tax on non muslims) for Christians and Jews for their teachings forbid them from military service which was compulsory for muslims.

3. Surah 9 is the part that regulates punishment of tax evasion if you like. The punishment muslims who don’t pay zakat is equivalent to punishment of non muslims who do not pay Gizyah.(Some early Islamic philosophers call it the ‘punishment law’ since it is the only surah of the 114 that does not start with ‘in the name of God most gracious and most merciful’)
4. Pakistan and blasphemy rules: I can’t help you on this one. As muslims we are clear cut on monotheism and the fact that “God is One” but we cannot judge Christians or people of other faith. In my opinion and I hope I am right, this is an issue of extremism from some muslims as much as from some Christians who see muslims as infidels because we love Jesus but we don’t worship him.

I hope things are clearer..a little..maybe?..
God bless your friends at the CTF and help them see us as fellow humans..:)

Regards…
Ash (The other:))