Also, you might like to learn a bit about the past and future of the oil industry - this is quite a good reference:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/featherstone/featherstone18.html

It contains one excellent sentence that sums up the current state of affairs perfectly:

"I could point out that crude oil formations underneath the Saudi desert, or Lake Maracaibo in Venezuela, or wherever, aren't our property – even if they aren't private property per se – and therefore we are no more entitled to that crude than a ravenous fat man is entitled to a free meal everywhere he goes. However, the militant mercantilist is unlikely to care about such niceties, and is probably happy knowing his government is willing to stick guns in peoples faces and demand they fork over their property because "we need it more." ".

You could put my position this way - lets stop helping the ravenous fat man stealing other people's food...

“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” –Goethe

Oh the ESTIMATED sample mentioned in the Lancet which was taken from a sample of 30 people living within the Sunni Triangle that concluded that the US forces have killed this many based on a 'probability sample'....
At least be honest Grace. This sample has been discredited by all major media service, except the ABC & Fairfax.

biggav, where the hell do I start with you? You are throwing haymakers, swinging like a drunken sailor.

First, Get your facts right! I have never said that " Australia was at war". Check it out. People don't "Declare War" these days anyway. However, al-Qaeda is at war with Western Civilisation, us "Infidels". September 11 was his "declaration" and subsequent ravings by him and Bashir Bakar tell us they are going to play hell in the name of Allah

Second: I have never conceded my argument on the Gulags. Anyone who knows anything about them would agree with my previous post that there is no comparison between hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens worked to death in freezing Siberian labor camps, and the mistreatment of a few captured terrorists in the prisons you keep harping about. You are talking bull and you and everyone else know it.

WMD's: Read David Kay's report [if you are game!]

Sleepers: It was a sleeper cell which carried out the Madrid bombing. They lie low and don't advertise themselves, then strike when Osama says Go!
Don't tell me they are not here. One bloke in Perth, the Australian head of JI admitted he ad been organising an attack on the Israeli Embassy, then took off.

Canada: That place of perfect democracy which won't allow Fox News into their country. That's free speech for you. I often watch Fox news and it gives both sides a good chance to put their case, so don't put that "Pravda" crap on us.
By the way, that's a nice touch referring us to YOUR OWN websites to confirm what YOU are trying to put across. Reminds me of Dr Evatt asking Molotov whether the Soviets had spies in Australia!

Grace, that 100,000. Reminds me of "Billy Bunter". big round exaggerated figure full of hot air. Sayeret's rebuttal is on target. You and biggav make a lovely couple.

Big Al, there are some many errors, lies and misconceptions in your post thats its hard to know where to start - but at least you make it easy for me.

First, I never said you said that "Australia was at war" - your partner sayeret said it - so I corrected him, as we clearly aren't at war with anyone.

If you dare, take a look out the window - you might notice there isn't an army of fanatics waiting to blow you up. I actually feel quite sorry for you guys - living in constant fear is damaging to your health - you really should watch "The Power of Nightmares" (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0111-31.htm and http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm and http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm) as I recommended earlier - you'd sleep a lot better at night.

Onto the Iraqi civilians being killed by the US military so that the US can steal Iraq's oil - the Lancet study (http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol364/iss9446/early_online_publication) estimated that over 100,000 civilian deaths have been caused by the US invasion and occupation (I think I'd know who to believe if I was given the choice between the Lancet and Fox News).

The "Iraq Body Count" (http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/#count) organisation can count around 18,000 deaths.

Unfortunately US forces prevent accurate body counts being done as part of their propaganda efforts (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1204-05.htm), so its impossible to be certain exactly how many civilians they have killed - at a minimum its in the 10s of thousands, it could well be approaching 200,000 by now.

Unfortunately this campaign of terror by the US army looks to be getting worse, with the "Salvador Option" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek/ and http://www.narconews.com/Issue35/article1150.html) now openly being canvassed - a repeat of the US backed death squads that operated in Central America during an earlier US dirty war.

There are also rumours that the reason why the US tried to assassinate the Italian journalist recently was due to her interviewing people who had seen napalm and phosphorus weaponds used when the US destroyed the city of Fallujah.

Continuing the task of correcting Big Al's endless repetition of US propaganda...

If you don't want to admit that the US is running concentration camps at Abu Ghraib, Bagram air base and Guantanmo Bay thats your choice - its much easier to remain in denial than admit that the people you back are committing acts of torture and breaking US laws by kidnapping civilians and sending them to third world countires to be tortured on their behalf (the process know as "rendition"). This article could set you straight (http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2005/1084) - it also notes that "Bush now holds some 2.2 million prisoners in the US gulag, the world's biggest prison population since the Nazis both by absolute number and by percentage of population. The system is designed to remove from the political process and, in many cases, exterminate people of color, alternative life style and political dissidence".

Of course, now you've admitted that you watch the Republican propaganda channel "Fox News" (the US equivalent of the Soviet's "Pravda"), things are a lot clearer (can you actually get that in Australia or do you live in the US ?). At least its obvious where you get your talking points from !

For those who aren't familiar with "Fox News", I highly recommend the documentary "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War On Journalism" (http://www.outfoxed.org/). It is also well worth reading "Into The Buzzsaw" (http://www.freedomofthepress.net/intothebuzzsaw.htm) and watching "Orwell Rolled In His Grave" (
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/03/int05012.html) for an examination of how this privatised propaganda network (run by Republican politician Roger Ailes) was constructed.

This article (http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/10/06/no-longer-obeying-orders/) may also give you some insight into how the system works.

I should note that one of the reasons totalitarian systems fail is that they become blind to reality after a while (think of the Iraqi Information Minister for example).

The Smirking Chimp lives in a world where he never hears bad news (http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=2222) - and he even avoids answering hard questions at press conferences by filling them with ring ins - the most notorious case being gay prostitute "Jeff Gannon", who was given the run of the White House (http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/02/jeff-gannon-story-apparently-us.html).

Sayeret
It is not important to know exactly how many civilians have been killed in Iraq by direct military action or by the years of sanctions.
It is not important to know exactly how many Jews were killed by the Nazis or how many Cambodians were killed under Pol Pot or how many Russians under Stalin.
The important part is that any civilians killed is too many and must be avoided.
The only way to avoid civilians deaths is to avoid military action unless acting in self defence ie not attacking other countries which are not attacking your country.
Peace