For over a thousand years humans have been killing other humans in the name of God and Freedom and the practice has not been a success.
It seems that the time is overdue when we should evolve into a species which attempts to solve differences by Peaceful means and not by violence.
Many thousands of civilians have been killed in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. I am sure that many of those killed were not supporters of the previous regimes.
What right have we to decide that others must die so that we can impose "Democracy"?
If we are serious about bringing democracy to other countries let us make a start and create a department of Peace. This department could be funded by taking funds from the department of Foreign Affairs (foreign interference) and the department of Defence (attack).
Let us find out if our foreign policies are a success by determining if the number of friends Australia has is increasing or decreasing week by week.

Go Alistair!

The previous poster, "Peace" has a crazy misnoma - "Apeasement" is more like it! If Europe had stood up to Hilter sooner, rather that lettimg the Apeasing Peace-nics delaying the inevitable showdown, peace would have been quicker and cheaper in lives and money. And if our friend "Apeasement" had prevailed we may still have been under the Nazi jackboot.

C'mon the Peace. Explain to us how this is to be acheived. It must be so easy & you have the answer

Probably protested the liberation of East Timor, didn't you. & if you didn't then you are a hell of a hypocrite Peace.

If you want to use Hitler analogies then you might care to think about which country was invaded by an enemy that possessed overwhelming force, and which country was a basically defenceless third world country that happened to possess a lot of a particularly valuable resource.

The present day United States is interested in just one thing - and that is control of the world's oil supply - all the talk about "freedom" and "democracy" is just a smokescreen which anyone (except perhaps a naive teenager) who is even slightly aware of geopolitics would be aware of.

Beware of making comparisons to fascism as you might find that (to the disgust of many people) that this time the fascists are our allies - and we're helping them.

You might find some of these articles to be of interest:

The Oil Factor In Bush's 'War On Tyranny' - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/GC03Dj02.html
Living Under Fascism - http://austinuu.org/sermons/2004/2004-11-07-LivingUnderFascism.html
Fascist America - http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0122-10.htm

bigav, you sound like a typical old time Comm or a young Marxist who doesn't want to realise that Fascism and Communism are twin brothers.

I congratulate George W. Bush for having the courage to grasp the nettle and knock off Saddam and his twisted sadistic sons before they became too powerful to challenge short of nuclear war. He has probably saved us from the unthinkable, Saddam's terrorist friends al-Qaeda being given chemical, biological and eventually nuclear weapons by Saddam.

This struggle in Iraq could well change the course of world history towards democracy in the Middle East. In years to come, George W. Bush could be as revered as FDR, JFK and Ronald Reagan.

Actually I'm a libertarian - I agree that fascism and communism are equally evil - George Bush's United States is the twin of Brezhnev's Soviet Union - a nation whose political structures have begun to calcify and is increasingly reliant on the use of military force, propaganda and the restriction of civil rights in order to achieve its ends.

By the way, I forgot to mock your ridiculous assertions that:

(1) You claim Saddam's Iraq was growing in power and was a threat to the United states in some way.

This clearly false.

Iraq had been in terminal decline since the first gulf war - with the US, Britain and France no longer feeling the need to bolster Saddam's regime in order to punish Iran, and with the Soviet Union dead and no longer providing an alternative option for military and technical assistance, Iraq was effectively destroyed as a military power. The WMD programs Iraq had during the 1980's were dismantled and no longer existed by the turn of the century.

That was still the case when the invasion was launched.

(2) You claim that Saddam - a socialist, secular dictator who repressed fundamentalist Islamic movements within Iraq, was in league with the fundamentalist Islamic Al Qaeda organisation.

This is also false - Baathism and Al Qaeda are natural enemies - Saddam and his cronies would have nothing to gain by cooperating with those people as long as they remained in power.

Of course, now the US is occupying Iraq, they seem to be coming to the conclusion that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".


I think you've been reading too much neo-conservative (ie. fascist) nonsense - maybe you should check out "The Power of Nightmares" to get an idea of what is really going on:

http://biggav.blogspot.com/2004/12/power-of-nightmaressounds-like-this.html
http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/01/power-of-nightmares-bbc-showed-power.html

If there is any mocking to be done, it should be me mocking your ridiculous assertion that Bush's America is the same as Breznev's USSR. There is no 2am doorknock by the secret police, no gulags and complete freedom of the press and expression in the US. A shade different from Comrade Toadface's country!

Re your later arguments. Although Saddam was a secularist, he contacted Osama after the 1991 war, [Hussan al-Turabi of the Sudanese National Islamic Front arranged the connection] and there were several contacts with Iraq Intelligence, including an explosives expert Brigadier Salim el-Ahmed with Intelligence Director Mani abd-al-Rashid al-Tikriti at Osama's Khartoum farm in 1995 and 1996.

Also I suggest you read David Kay's report to the House/Senate Intelligence Committees on October 2, 2003. www.cia.gov.cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david.kay or type david kay in Google.

I set out a lot of information on another site on Feb. 26 and 28 "Voters' bravery
gives Iraq a real sight of liberty".

I'm sorry I haven't the time to go through it all again on this site but maybe you are interested enough to take a look.

I suppose it must make some feel good if they can label anyone who does not agree with them.
Thus we see people who advocate Peace labeled as unpatriotic, anti-war, traitors etc.
People who advocate war are seldom labeled as anti-peace etc.
People who profit financially from war are seldom accused of being traitors and unpatriotic.
When we go to war we invent names to dehumanise the people against whom we are fighting. We call them slopes, rag heads, cloth heads etc. etc.
We invent words to prevent the public from getting a clear picture of what is being carried out in their name. Civilians who are killed "accidentally" are called collateral damage. Our leaders who lie are said to have mispoken. Body bags are now called "transfer tubes" and the dead are referred to as "living impaired". When a country has its infrastructure destroyed by bombing etc. it is said that the country is being reconstructed.

It should be remembered that the major wars are justified by untrue statements to justify the wars. This happened in the Spanish American war, WW1, WW2, Vietnam war and Gulf wars 1 and 2.

US marine Majopr General Smedley Butler (2 congressional medals of honour) wrote over 70 years ago "War is a Racket". He realised that for 35 years he had been fighting, not for freedom and democracy, but to make a few more millionaires back home.

Peace cannot be achieved by killing others and this has been proved over the last thousand years.
If the effort and expense of planning, preparing and waging war was devoted to planning, preparing and waging peace then we would have a good chance of enjoying peace.

Peace

Peace, If we hadn't fought Hitler,Mussolini and Tojo, you wouldn't be writing these posts. I don't know what lies you are talking about. Appeasement certainly didn't work, in fact made the Axis bolder.

War is a terrible thing - cruel, destructive and wasteful. But there IS something worse - To be conquered and enslaved by a cruel, sadistic enemy. Sometimes, to fight is the ONLY real choice.. Ask anyone who lived in Nazi occupied Europe or Japanese occupied Asia.

Big Al, I'm still laughing at you.

George "the smirking chimp" Bush is indeed old comrade toadface's twin brother - just as the Soviets tried to maintain their control of central asia's energy resources by invading afghanistan, monkey boy Bush is trying to maintain control of the world's major remaining fossil fuel resources by invading Iraq (and no doubt Iran and Syria in the near future). What do you think the 14 big US military bases being built in the Iraqi oil fields and along the pipelines are for ? The same reason there are US bases throughout the persian gulf - their (fascist) empire is dependent on them controlling oil - as it has been since the second world war ended.

At least before Bush and his neocon brownshirts seized power there were some signs that the US could be a force for good (even if it behaved atrociously in countries like Vietnam, Nicaragua, Chile etc etc). Those days are long gone.

You say there are no 2am knocks on the door in Bush's america - yet thats exactly what the Patriot act enabled.

You say they have no gulags - yet thats exactly what Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, Bagram airbase and all the torture chambers that people subject to "rendition" are sent to are.

You say there is freedom of the press - yet they are assassinating journalists in Iraq who try to report the truth.

You are in complete denial of reality - and thats the reason why this latest experiment with totalitarianism will fail - just like the others did.

And by the way - revering a foreign leader (and a fascist one at that) is vaguely disgusting - why don't you read George Washington's farewell address to see what he thought of your kind.

BIGGAV.

You are a fool. Thank god that we've all recently voted in federal elections & have consigned your ilk to the irrelevance wastepaper basket.
We are at war. It's about time you woke up.

One suspects extreme paranoia with Big Gav.
He thinks the 'jackbooted Americans are coming to get him at 2am'. All because his government wants to fight terrorism.

Actually, Sayeret, while biggav's prose is a little intemperate, I agree in general with his/her assessment of US imperialism and Australia's obsequious servility. In particular, your naive claim about jackboots, gulags etc has been effectively refuted.

While I think that it's a bit extreme (yet?) to characterise the USA as a totalitarian state, it is certainly moving in that direction, and we are following slavishly along, as befits a client state in an empire. We are now effectively a one-party state, and we will reap the bitter harvest of this after July when the Ausralian puppet government begins its legislative program at the behest of its neocon US masters.

There will be civil and industrial unrest, which we are now beginning to witness in the Aboriginal ghettoes and suburban wastelands. We probably deserve it.

Morgan

Biggav, I suggest you laugh as much as you can because you really have bugger-all to laugh about. You are talking a lot of crap.

Oil pipelines: The terrorists are continually attacking and blowing these up. Iraq's economy is going to depend on oil. Would you rather have these terrorist butchers [whom you never criticise] controlling the oilfields?

Gulags: You betray your appalling ignorance by equating the Russian gulags with the prisons you name. Gulags were full of hundreds of thousands of innocent Soviet citizens whose only "crime" was to write a poem about religion, or grumble about the regime, or something we would think nothing of. They were sent to freezing labor camps where they were worked, to death on starvation subsistance. Others were tortured to death or shot in KGB prisons like Lubyanka, or certified insane and sent to "psychiatric prisons".
The people in your nominated prisons were captured terrorists, who were not starved, worked or frozen to death., shot or driven insane with drugs. If you can't see the difference, it says a lot about your level of intelligence.

2am doorknock. Read as for gulags. Hundreds of thousands at any one time, How many have been arrested under the Patriot Act? When you re in a country which has suffered 9/11 you are entitled to be strict on security when there are undoubtedly plenty more "sleepers" waiting orders from
Osama.
You complain about journalists being assassinated. You don't say who. People are being assassinated by terrorists every day but no complaints rom you. They hack off people's heads, No complaint from biggav. You claim to be a libertarian, yet you would deny the Iraqi people liberty from the cruel and sadistic regime of Saddam and his sadistic crazy sons. You are a phony.

You sneer at me for my admiration of certain American Presidents. Don't you admire Nelson Mandella? Is that disgusting too?

Guys - don't get so excitable - you really should watch that "Power of Nightmares" documentary I linked to - this campaign of fear the neocons have been waging is obviously affecting you deeply (and if you read the other link to the article about the 14 aspects of a fascist nation, you'll see keeping the population in a state of fear is part of the way the system works).

Osama's sleepers - that one made me laugh - just like the Al Qaeda plot to kidnap Russell Crowe that was breathlessly announced on this morning's news. I imagine the guy who makes these stories up is the same one who came up with the "Iraqi soldiers throwing babies out of incubators" during the first gulf war and the "human shredding machine" before the invasion of Iraq.

As for assassinating reporters ? Surely you jest - the news has been full of it the past few days. In case you haven't been paying attention, have a read of "Add Counting Bodies to The List Of Dangers" (http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/02/add-counting-bodies-to-list-of-dangers.html),
"The War On Reporters" (http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/03/war-on-reporters-even-after-posting.html) and "The War On Reporters II" (http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/03/war-on-reporters-part-2-some-more.html).

As the BBC reporter noted - if you want to be a journalist in occupied Iraq, you have 2 choices - embed or die.

Uncle Joe Stalin would be proud of monkey boy and his men.

(sorry about multiple postings but the 350 word limit is a bit restrictive)

For the guy who thinks we are in a state of war - you are clealry mistaken - Australia hasn't declared war on anyone, and nor has anyone declared war on us. You really need to calm down before making such rash, and obviously untrue, statements.

And as for comparing the american concentration camps at Guantanamo bay, Abu Ghraib etc with the gulags - the similarity is clear and undeniable - and the disgusting acts of torture performed by american soldiers at these places should make you ashamed of the foreign fascist leader who you wish to create a personality cult for.

The propaganda machine you are mimicking is on a loser when it tries to deify the likes of monkey boy and even that amiable clown Ronald Reagan - check out "Outfoxed" for a great segment on Fox News' (the US version of soviet Pravda) abject failure trying this personality cult stuff with Ronnie.

US Imperialism? ... There are only 2 countries in the world that can truly say that they are the result of US 'imperialism'.
JAPAN & GERMANY.

Which armchair critic would like to discuss the abject failures of these experiments, & list the failures of US foreign policy in relation to these two PARAIH states of WW2 , whose rhetoric at the time reflects the Islamists of today. [See Kyoto Conference 1942]

biggav, first you claim Saddam has no WMD's , now you reckon he had no shredding machines. Next you'll be nominating him for membership of Rotary! Have you got any of that whitewash left over, so you maybe can spruce up Idi Amin and Pol Pot.

You scoff at "sleepers" yet the fanatics who carried out the September 11 attack were exactly that. How many more are there in the US and other countries including Australia? We don't know but we have to protect ourselves the best way we can, even if we step on toes.

You mention Joe Stalin. You are one of the most anti-American people I've come across. [That's not intended as a compliment! ] If Old Joe could read your stuff he'd be grinning through his moustache. He's said it all before.

Big Al, you really do live in a neocon (fascist) fantasy world.

Yes - Saddam didn't have any WMDs. All the UN weapons inspectors said this (Butler, Ritter and Hans Blix). Many US, UK and Australian intelligence officers said this. The neocons ignored all the evidence, lied to us, and invaded a country that posed no threat to anyone except its own citizens.

The "human shredding machine" story was also a lie, as was the first gulf war's "throwing babies out incubators" story.

Basically the whole Iraq episode has been a disgraceful case of the US murdering tens of thousands of innocent civilians in order to steal iraq's oil.

The "sleepers" you imagine (and there have been no successful prosecutions of these imaginary terrorists) are just part of the neocon campaign of fear - wake up - and watch the Power of Nightmares - you might learn something.

At least you've stopped arguing against the facts that the neocons (fascists) controlling the US government are running concentration camps and are assassinating reporters.

I note that US Senator Robert Byrd has condemned Bush for following in Hitler's footsteps - and when the senior senator, who was around to witness the previous fascist atrocities of world war 2, says this, you should pay attention :

http://www.gnn.tv/headlines/1334/Senator_Byrd_is_Correct_to_Equate_Bush_With_Hitler
http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2005/1084

"The U.S. Senate's senior Constitutional scholar has correctly equated Bush with Hitler, and the usual attack dogs are howling.

But they are wrong, and Americans now must the harsh realities of an increasingly fascist and totalitarian GOP."

And with reference to Saddam Hussein - I agree that he was a tyrant and a war criminal - he should face trial at the International Criminal Court, and he should hang for his crimes.

There is a good article describing the ideal situation here:
http://biggav.blogspot.com/2004/12/some-historical-notes-on-iraq-q-who.html

Of course, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Perle should also be up in front of the ICC on war crimes charges related to their actions in Iraq. Rumsfeld and Cheney should get to share the same trial as Saddam as well, as they backed his assualt on Iran in the 1980's.

Obviously the Smirking Chimp and his neocons (fascist) want to have another go at Iran - which is looking likely to happen soon:
http://www.energybulletin.net/4634.html

I'm glad to see Canada is now advising the US that they should adopt democracy as their system of government, rather than the totalitarian state they have been assembling. Well done Canada !
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/westview/story/2610442p-3026695c.html

By the way, as you may have noticed from the articles and speeches by Robert Kennedy, Senator Byrd and others that I've linked to, the realisation that the US is now a fascist state is becoming widespread.

Right wing politicians have also picked this up and begun agitating for change - for example, Republican Congressman Ron Paul has objected to the tyrannical police state that now exists in the US, on prominent conservative Lew Rockwell's site (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul218.html) and right wing antwar site antiwar.com (http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=4189). Lew Rockwell also makes the case that the Bush administration is a clear and present danger to freedom (http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/red-state-fascism.html).

Talk radio host Thom Hartmann has written a series of articles examining the rise of fascism in america too (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm, http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0222-22.htm, http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0110-33.htm, http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1220-20.htm) as has journalist David Neiwert (http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/The%20Rise%20Of%20Pseudo%20Fascism.pdf).

I think anyone who believes in freedom and democracy should be making a stand and demanding the impeachment of Bush and his cronies.

Big Pav,

"Steal Iraqs Oil"..

I take it you work & have a mortgage.

What do think is a fair price to pay for petrol?
$1 / litre, $4, prehaps $5......

Be Honest mate!

Sayeret, the price for your cheap petrol is 100,000 murdered Iraqi citizens, including women and children. Be honest now, how does that make you feel, mate?

Sayaret,

I'm not willing to have anyone killed just to make my petrol a bit cheaper - but I'm glad you're being honest at last instead of just spouting propaganda.

As I said before I'm a libertarian - a free market in oil should decide the price (something which has only rarely occurred in the history of the oil market) - and that means Iraqis should be free to sell their oil at whatever price the market is willing to pay - and denominated in whatever currency they choose (there is some speculation that Saddam's worst crime from the US point of view was announcing his intention to begin selling oil priced in euros).

While fascists pay lip service to the idea of free markets they always prefer market control in practice (which they make sure works in their favour, usually at the point of a gun).

In any case, a belief that US control of the world's remaining oil resources will somehow keep the petrol prices we pay down is naive to say the least.

Firstly, US oil companies are major backers of the Bush administration - and they'll be wanting a hefty return on their investment in him - and that means high petrol prices (the recent strength of the A$ has insulated us a lot from the big rises in oil prices recently, but they will start to bite eventually).

Second, world oil production will be peaking at some stage in the next few years - and the US intends that it won't be suffering fuel shortages (at least initially) - but of course for us in Australia it will be a different story.

Also, you might like to learn a bit about the past and future of the oil industry - this is quite a good reference:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/featherstone/featherstone18.html

It contains one excellent sentence that sums up the current state of affairs perfectly:

"I could point out that crude oil formations underneath the Saudi desert, or Lake Maracaibo in Venezuela, or wherever, aren't our property – even if they aren't private property per se – and therefore we are no more entitled to that crude than a ravenous fat man is entitled to a free meal everywhere he goes. However, the militant mercantilist is unlikely to care about such niceties, and is probably happy knowing his government is willing to stick guns in peoples faces and demand they fork over their property because "we need it more." ".

You could put my position this way - lets stop helping the ravenous fat man stealing other people's food...

“None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.” –Goethe

Oh the ESTIMATED sample mentioned in the Lancet which was taken from a sample of 30 people living within the Sunni Triangle that concluded that the US forces have killed this many based on a 'probability sample'....
At least be honest Grace. This sample has been discredited by all major media service, except the ABC & Fairfax.

biggav, where the hell do I start with you? You are throwing haymakers, swinging like a drunken sailor.

First, Get your facts right! I have never said that " Australia was at war". Check it out. People don't "Declare War" these days anyway. However, al-Qaeda is at war with Western Civilisation, us "Infidels". September 11 was his "declaration" and subsequent ravings by him and Bashir Bakar tell us they are going to play hell in the name of Allah

Second: I have never conceded my argument on the Gulags. Anyone who knows anything about them would agree with my previous post that there is no comparison between hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens worked to death in freezing Siberian labor camps, and the mistreatment of a few captured terrorists in the prisons you keep harping about. You are talking bull and you and everyone else know it.

WMD's: Read David Kay's report [if you are game!]

Sleepers: It was a sleeper cell which carried out the Madrid bombing. They lie low and don't advertise themselves, then strike when Osama says Go!
Don't tell me they are not here. One bloke in Perth, the Australian head of JI admitted he ad been organising an attack on the Israeli Embassy, then took off.

Canada: That place of perfect democracy which won't allow Fox News into their country. That's free speech for you. I often watch Fox news and it gives both sides a good chance to put their case, so don't put that "Pravda" crap on us.
By the way, that's a nice touch referring us to YOUR OWN websites to confirm what YOU are trying to put across. Reminds me of Dr Evatt asking Molotov whether the Soviets had spies in Australia!

Grace, that 100,000. Reminds me of "Billy Bunter". big round exaggerated figure full of hot air. Sayeret's rebuttal is on target. You and biggav make a lovely couple.

Big Al, there are some many errors, lies and misconceptions in your post thats its hard to know where to start - but at least you make it easy for me.

First, I never said you said that "Australia was at war" - your partner sayeret said it - so I corrected him, as we clearly aren't at war with anyone.

If you dare, take a look out the window - you might notice there isn't an army of fanatics waiting to blow you up. I actually feel quite sorry for you guys - living in constant fear is damaging to your health - you really should watch "The Power of Nightmares" (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0111-31.htm and http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1207-26.htm and http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/video1037.htm and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm) as I recommended earlier - you'd sleep a lot better at night.

Onto the Iraqi civilians being killed by the US military so that the US can steal Iraq's oil - the Lancet study (http://www.thelancet.com/journal/vol364/iss9446/early_online_publication) estimated that over 100,000 civilian deaths have been caused by the US invasion and occupation (I think I'd know who to believe if I was given the choice between the Lancet and Fox News).

The "Iraq Body Count" (http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/#count) organisation can count around 18,000 deaths.

Unfortunately US forces prevent accurate body counts being done as part of their propaganda efforts (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1204-05.htm), so its impossible to be certain exactly how many civilians they have killed - at a minimum its in the 10s of thousands, it could well be approaching 200,000 by now.

Unfortunately this campaign of terror by the US army looks to be getting worse, with the "Salvador Option" (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek/ and http://www.narconews.com/Issue35/article1150.html) now openly being canvassed - a repeat of the US backed death squads that operated in Central America during an earlier US dirty war.

There are also rumours that the reason why the US tried to assassinate the Italian journalist recently was due to her interviewing people who had seen napalm and phosphorus weaponds used when the US destroyed the city of Fallujah.

Continuing the task of correcting Big Al's endless repetition of US propaganda...

If you don't want to admit that the US is running concentration camps at Abu Ghraib, Bagram air base and Guantanmo Bay thats your choice - its much easier to remain in denial than admit that the people you back are committing acts of torture and breaking US laws by kidnapping civilians and sending them to third world countires to be tortured on their behalf (the process know as "rendition"). This article could set you straight (http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/7/2005/1084) - it also notes that "Bush now holds some 2.2 million prisoners in the US gulag, the world's biggest prison population since the Nazis both by absolute number and by percentage of population. The system is designed to remove from the political process and, in many cases, exterminate people of color, alternative life style and political dissidence".

Of course, now you've admitted that you watch the Republican propaganda channel "Fox News" (the US equivalent of the Soviet's "Pravda"), things are a lot clearer (can you actually get that in Australia or do you live in the US ?). At least its obvious where you get your talking points from !

For those who aren't familiar with "Fox News", I highly recommend the documentary "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War On Journalism" (http://www.outfoxed.org/). It is also well worth reading "Into The Buzzsaw" (http://www.freedomofthepress.net/intothebuzzsaw.htm) and watching "Orwell Rolled In His Grave" (
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/03/int05012.html) for an examination of how this privatised propaganda network (run by Republican politician Roger Ailes) was constructed.

This article (http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2004/10/06/no-longer-obeying-orders/) may also give you some insight into how the system works.

I should note that one of the reasons totalitarian systems fail is that they become blind to reality after a while (think of the Iraqi Information Minister for example).

The Smirking Chimp lives in a world where he never hears bad news (http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=2222) - and he even avoids answering hard questions at press conferences by filling them with ring ins - the most notorious case being gay prostitute "Jeff Gannon", who was given the run of the White House (http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/02/jeff-gannon-story-apparently-us.html).

Sayeret
It is not important to know exactly how many civilians have been killed in Iraq by direct military action or by the years of sanctions.
It is not important to know exactly how many Jews were killed by the Nazis or how many Cambodians were killed under Pol Pot or how many Russians under Stalin.
The important part is that any civilians killed is too many and must be avoided.
The only way to avoid civilians deaths is to avoid military action unless acting in self defence ie not attacking other countries which are not attacking your country.
Peace

& what about Dresden fool?
1000's of innocent germans bombed because of the foreign policy of their country. 100% justified.

Sayeret - I think the word "fool" accurately describes you (with "murderous" as a good adjective preceding it).

"Peace" said don't attack people who haven't attacked you.

Obviously that doesn't apply to Nazi Germany - in whose footsteps the neocon fascists of the US have chosen to follow.

Blah, blah, blah. Don’t you lefties ever get sick of being wrong? You’ve been wrong on just about everything for the last 60 years! Peace going on about “The important part is that any civilians killed is too many and must be avoided” is hypocritical lip service at best. If you really gave a toss about the murder of civilians you should welcome the US actions in Iraq. Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people, yet not one word from the left.

The left danced to Hitlers tune in WWII (and only turned against him when he betrayed Comrade Stalin). Since then they’ve danced to the tune of Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Min, Pol Pot, Castro and these days they’re running around apologizing to Bin Laden, blaming the victims of September 11, absolutely ignoring the atrocities of Saddam and without a hint of shame, referring to the evil terrorists in Iraq as “freedom fighters”. The only freedom these things are fighting for is the freedom to go back to favoured status under Saddam.

The left are so quick to make up ulterior motives for the US and Britain but you can be sure they’ll remain silent on the French and German motives for not going to war. Haven’t heard too much either about the beloved UN and the absolute corruption with the “oil for food” scandal.

It’s really quite sickening that people like biggav hate America so much that they are willing to ignore (or condone) any amount of human evil as long as it can be used against America. I’m just glad that these attitudes of the left are being listened too by fewer and fewer people. It won’t be long until they disappear completely into the mists of irrelevancy.

Bozzie - you should read the preceding posts before jumping in and putting your foot straight in your mouth.

As I've said several times before - I'm a right-winger - a libertarian - and always have been. And I'm ashamed and disgusted by what some supposed "right wingers" are doing nowadays.

Many of the people I've quoted are also right wingers - people who detest the neoconservative fascist regime aren't confined to left wingers. Neoconservatism is a cancer within right wing politics which urgently needs to be removed.

American Conservative magazine said the following in the lead up to the last US presidential "election" (the vote rigging now endemic in the US is another scandal which urgently needs sorting out):

"Bush has behaved like a caricature of what a right-wing president is supposed to be, and his continuation in office will discredit any sort of conservatism for generations. The launching of an invasion against a country that posed no threat to the U.S., the doling out of war profits and concessions to politically favored corporations, the financing of the war by ballooning the deficit to be passed on to the nation’s children, the ceaseless drive to cut taxes for those outside the middle class and working poor: it is as if Bush sought to resurrect every false 1960s-era left-wing cliché about predatory imperialism and turn it into administration policy."
(http://www.amconmag.com/2004_11_08/cover1.html)

Longtime Republican politician Pat Buchanan has also recently noted the this new US attempt at fascist imperialism is doomed to fail -
http://amconmag.com/2005_03_14/buchanan.html

As for the Iraq oil for food "scandal" - I think you are pretty ignorant of the facts about this particular episode. For your enlightenment, the US engineered the whole thing in the first place, and the subsequent witchhunt is simply a disgrace.

UN arms inspector Scott Ritter describes how this "scandal" is just a smokescreen created by the neocons to justify their illegal invasion of Iraq - http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1212-23.htm

Unfortuately it seems like their are plenty of unprincipled and morally bankrupt people like yourself willing to excuse any criminal act so long as it's labelled "freedom".

BIGGAV, If you are a right-winger I am Micky Mouse. You are saying just what a member of the Politboro in the Kremlin would say. You can't say one good word about the USA.

Read your post of March 8 at 8.12pm and then tell me it was not me you were telling that Australia had not declared war.

I don't look out the window looking for fanatics set to attack me. They obviously stay under wraps until ready to attack. Grow up.

You say there are 2.2 milion in prisons [the American gulag] They are in jail for murder.rape and other criminal offences [not politics ]and you know it. You are talking bull and everyone knows it.

Have you ever watched Fox News with Bill O'Reilly? He and his co-hosts give both sides a good hearing and your talk of "Pravda" is just more of your crap.

You waffle on about the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners. It shouldn't have happened, but it's not in the same category as terrorists hacking off helpless civilian hostages's heads , and mutilation of American casualties. Barbarians and cowards, and not a word of criticism from you, because obviously you want them to win.

You say one organisation has counted 18,000 dead Iraqi civilians. Then it's 100,000 and then approaching 200,000. Wild guesses. How many did Saddam torture and murder? Get it into perspective. Would you rather Saddam was still in control, with his sadistic crazy sons raping, torturing and murdering at will? I think you are so blinded by bitter hatred of America that you really would prefer Saddam. That's why no one is giving you any credibility.

Al - you are an idiot.

I am indeed a right winger, as are many of the sources that I have quoted. Its entirely possible to be a right winger and oppose fascism, even if you don't.

As for your stupid request that "Read your post of March 8 at 8.12pm and then tell me it was not me you were telling that Australia had not declared war." What I said was :

"For the guy who thinks we are in a state of war - you are clearly mistaken - Australia hasn't declared war on anyone, and nor has anyone declared war on us. You really need to calm down before making such rash, and obviously untrue, statements."

I was responding to Sayeret (Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:55:21 AM), who said:

"We are at war. It's about time you woke up."

Learn to read before posting you fool.

Your continuous apologies for the war of aggression perpetrated by the US in Iraq so that it can steal their oil is disgusting.

I'll quote George Washington, who was a decent american president, unlike the smirking chimp:

"A passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation facilitates the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, infuses into one the enmities of the other, and betrays the former into participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification ... It also gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens, who devote themselves to the favorite nation, facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country.
- George Washington, Farewell Address, 1796"

Love your own country, not a foreign one !

As for Bill "SHUT UP!" O'Reilly, he's just a clown and a thug - watch Outfoxed (http://www.outfoxed.org) and learn something about the Republican propaganda machine and Mr O'Reilly in particular.

Oh, and for some more details about the Republican propaganda network that obviously has you brainwashed, you might like to rea atranscript of your thuggish mate O'Reilly giving someone a "fair" hearing:
http://www.politicalstrategy.org/archives/000953.php#953

Its even more disgusting if you watch it on Outfoxed...

And some more Pravda style behaviour from the Republican machine - linked to from my blog: http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/03/republican-propaganda-machine-even.html

Unfortunately this steady encroachment on free speech and access to unbiased information has been done in such a subtle way that many people may have missed it. There is a good speech on this subject that you should read here:

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/journalism_under_fire.php

Maybe you'll wake up eventually...

biggav, You like calling opponents "idiot" and "fool". Well try this for size. I was about to call you a pathetic moron, but will hold back out of respect for On Line Opinion.

To recap: Sayeret's post was at 7.57am on March 8. Mine was at 12.39pm March 8. Yours was at 8.12pm March 8. You started off on the "Australia at war" question, then followed on about the gulags without indicating that you were replying to 2 different people. Try and get it right in future.

For your information I do sleep well, hoping that our Security organisations are doing their job. I do love my country, that's why I take the trouble to argue with people like you. I don't get all my information from Bill O'Reilly, I read and view widely. And O'Reilly DOES give everyone a fair go. Have you ever actually watched him, without relying on the biased views of disgruntled politicians and commentators?

You have this twisted idea that America is to blame for all the world's ills [even the Oil for Food scandal which was entirely the fault of the corrupt Europeans and the UN].

You also claim that America is a Fascist state.. It's a strange Fascist state which allows a conniving liar like Michael Moore to spread his twisted propaganda without being locked up in a concentration camp.. A Fascist state would hardly allow other political parties to exist, let alone fight in free elections. Think of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy COMPARE and maybe you'll see through that fog in your head how stupid your claims are.

YOU ARE SEEING FASCISTS UNDER THE BED. Your credibility is NIL.

Al you don't know what you are talking about (as usual).

I know who I was replying to - you obviously can't read.

To repeat what the conversation, which should be clear to anyone who reads the earlier posts, my statement was :

"For the guy who thinks we are in a state of war - you are clearly mistaken - Australia hasn't declared war on anyone, and nor has anyone declared war on us. You really need to calm down before making such rash, and obviously untrue, statements."

Sayeret (Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:55:21 AM), had earlier said: "We are at war. It's about time you woke up."

Clearly, as you didn't claim that we were at war, and Sayaret did claim this, I was replying to Sayaret - any other conclusion is simply insane.

You are just trying to distract attention from my entirely valid criticism of the worst ever US president and his fascist / neo-con regime.

Pumping out more Fox News Pravda style propaganda only diminishes what little remaining credibility you have.

The american invasion and occupation of Iraq is both illegal and a war crime. Bush should be tried for his acts in the International Criminal Court. He should also be condemned by the american people for his systematic looting of their national treasury and his destruction of the US dollar.

If you knew anything at all about what is going on in world energy markets you would acknowledge that this war of aggression is all about the US stealing the middle east's oil - nothing more.

As for the Iraq "Oil for food scandal", you obviously didn't read the article I posted. You can find more information here (though no doubt you'll ignore it as it doesn't fit in with your blinkered view of reality).

"Where has Iraq’s money gone?"
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/02/08/fraud-and-corruption-/#more-917

"U.S. ignored oil smuggling"
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/2005/01/002823.html

Again - watch the news - oil demand has exceeded the supply available, and that supply is about to enter long term decline.

The US has decided that armed theft is preferable to reorganising their economy to deal with less available oil. When the last major oil shock occured Americans and Europeans both used about the same amount of oil per head. Since then European use per capita has halved and American use has doubled. America should learn from the Europeans instead of pursuing their destructive (and ultimately futile) course of action...

biggav, You say I have a blinkered view of reality. I suppose you would have us believe you are objective in your comments?

Have you yet read David Kay's report to Congress on Oct. 2, 2003? Have you read http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature/html on the Oil For Food scandal, and the role of Benon Sevan and the UN?
Have you actually watched Bill O'Reilly and other Fox News commentators say for one week to see for yourself that they actually give all points of view a fair go? Try Optus channel 41.

You persist in this nonsense that America is only there to steal Iraq's oil. If this were true, all of America's enemies would be plastering it all over the TV, as they do with anything which they think can hurt the U.S.

You also persist in this absolute rubbish that America is a Fascist state. I ask you again,, how is it that a "Fascist" government would allow citizens to attack and insult the President and his family at will? Why is Michael Moore allowed to run free after what he has said about George W.Bush and his family?Why isn't he in a jail or concentration camp/gulag which totalitarian regimes have in store for dissident citizens? How come there are free elections and rival political parties? They were not allowed in Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany or in the "Red Fascism" of Soviet Russia. Your claims are absolute bull, and everyone knows it.

Al,

Read all my previous posts - its pointless repeating all the arguments I've made that the US is now a fascist state and that Fox "News" is the modern equivalent of the Soviet's Pravda propaganda apparatus, as you simply ignore all the detailed arguments (and communism is fundamentally different to fascism by the way, go and study some basic political theory before embarrassing yourself further) - these facts should be clear to anyone with an open mind who cares to observe the reality of the situation, whether they be right-wingers like myself, or left wingers like Mike Moore (who you seem to have a weird obsession with - no one else bought him up).

I will repeat that I have watched Fox "News" far too often for my liking - its undeniable that its a propaganda channel - go and do some research - I suggest you start here (quoting my previous advice to you) :

"For those who aren't familiar with "Fox News", I highly recommend the documentary "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War On Journalism" (http://www.outfoxed.org/). It is also well worth reading "Into The Buzzsaw" (http://www.freedomofthepress.net/intothebuzzsaw.htm) and watching "Orwell Rolled In His Grave" (
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/05/03/int05012.html) for an examination of how this privatised propaganda network (run by Republican politician Roger Ailes) was constructed."

As for the Kaye report, its a complete fabrication - as was proved by the absence of any WMDs in Iraq. The invasion was based on lies.

The invasion was and is about oil - the US will never leave Iraq until the oil rus out (even though the majority of the Iraqi population fervently wish they would go - even those who voted in the "elections").

The oil motive is thoroughly documented and understood by everyone who pays attention to international affairs. Here's some examples of what is repeated by almost all analyses of what has happened:
http://www.energybulletin.net/4834.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/ENG408A.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=7479
http://www.museletter.com/archive/144.html
http://mosnews.com/news/2005/03/21/shebarsh.shtml

I look forward to the day Bush and his cronies are tried by the international court for war crimes.

One last article on desire for oil driving the US invasion of Iraq - this one sums it all up quite well:

"Will The End of Oil Mean The End of America?"
http://www.321energy.com/editorials/freeman/freeman032105.html

"As long as the US chooses the Grab the Oil alternative, the implications for national policy are inescapable. The combination of all these facts—fixed supply, rapid depletion, lack of alternatives, severity of consequences, and hostility of current stockholding countries—drive the US to HAVE to adopt an aggressive (pre-emptive) military posture and to carry out a nakedly colonial expropriation of resources from weaker countries around the world.

This is why the US operates some 700 military bases around the world and spends over half a trillion dollars per year on military affairs, more than all the rest of the world—its “allies” included—combined. This is why the Defense Department’s latest Quadrennial Review stated, “The US must retain the capability to send well-armed and logistically supported forces to critical points around the globe, even in the face of enemy opposition.” This is why Pentagon brass say internally that current force levels are inadequate to the strategic challenges they face and that they will have to re-instate the draft after the 2004 elections.

But the provocation occasioned by grabbing the oil, especially from nations ideologically hostile to the US, means that military attacks on the US and the recourse to military responses will only intensify until the US is embroiled in unending global conflict. This is the perverse genius of the Grab the Oil strategy: it comes with its own built-in escalation, its own justification for ever more militarization—without limit. It will blithely consume the entire US economy, the entire society, without being sated. It is, in homage to Orwell, Perpetual War for Perpetual Grease."

biggav, You haven't made any "arguments" about America being a Fascist State. All we've seen are wild rantings. You are so anti-American that you are spewing forth absurdities.

Communism is sometimes referred to as "Red Fascism" because although the theory is different, the end result is similar - a totalitarian state with no human rights, no freedoms, secret police,torture, summary executions, concentration/lobour camps, and of course only one political party. Do you see now, or is that too hard for you to grasp? In fact Hitler is said to have got the idea of the camps from the Soviet gulags.

Both very different from the USA, so how can you possibly claim that America is a Fascist state? You had better shut up before you embarrass yourself furher.

If you really watched Fox News including Bill O'Reilly, Hannity&Combs and the others, and still say it's "Pravda" then it proves just how far off the planet you are.
Typical of you to just dismiss David Kay's report on Saddam's weapons program. Obviously you didn't read it. Maybe 9 pages is too long and detailed for you.

You haven't proved a thing with all your diatribe about oil. If America was stealing Iraq's oil, Putin, Chirac and all their other opponents would be screaming the place down. America now has discovered huge oil deposits in Alaska for development if necessary.

I hope one day you will "see the light" and stop spouting all this absolute bull

biggav, Furthermore, you want to have President Bush and his team tried as war criminals.

I don't see you wanting to have the barbarian cowards who kidnap people including civilians, and hack off their heads tried in any court or forced to pay for their hideous crimes.

No do I see you wanting to stop these cowardly fanatics who blow up innocent men women and children in car bombs, or bring those responsible to justice. I think you actually want them to win. I ask you now, do you want them to win?

You sneer at the recent elections, where millions risked being bombed or shot at to vote. They were extremely brave, and indicated their determination to move Iraq forward into a Democracy of their choosing. Would you rather Saddam and his sadistic, rapacious sons and others ready to carry out their torture and murder were still ruling Iraq? How would you bring peace and Democracy to Iraq?

Al, as usual you are completely ignoring what I have said previously - if you take the time to read my posts you would save me having to repeat myself.

1. All crimes against civilians, both by US troops and by Iraqi fighters should be punished - obviously, I think anyone who cuts off a civilian's head should by tried and hung for their crimes, just as any US troops who shoot civilians (or Italian journalists) should be tried and hung by the International criminal court. No crimes against civilians are acceptable.

2. I apply this same principle to Bush and all his neocon cabal, as I do to Saddam Hussein - as I previously mentioned, for a detailed description of what should occur, read this:
http://biggav.blogspot.com/2004/12/some-historical-notes-on-iraq-q-who.html

The whole lot of them are human scum and should be made to pay for their crimes.

I have been perfectly consistent on this - for you to suggest otherwise is disingenous and typical of your "big lie" tactics (which you share with your neocon mates - obviously you all studied Josef Goebbels carefully).

Now why don't you answer some of my questions:

1. Is it really worth killing tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians in order to steal their oil so the US can delay dealing with peak oil for another 5 years ?

2. Which of the 14 aspects of a fascist country do you think the present day US doesn't embody ? ()

3. Do you think Australian troops should serve in Iraq given the risks posed by the radioactive materiel now in the environment from US depleted uranium weapons ?

Ooops - I forgot the 14 aspects of a fascist nation link:

http://austinuu.org/sermons/2004/2004-11-07-LivingUnderFascism.html

My point is that the present day US exhibits at least 13 of these 14 aspects - it is undeniably now a fascist nation. True conservatives aren't fascists - however neoconservatives are - the name is just a "rebranding".

I think the great Hunter S Thompson had Bush and co pegged when he said:
"We have become a Nazi monster in the eyes of the whole world, a nation of bullies and b*stards who would rather kill than live peacefully. We are not just whores for power and oil, but killer whores with hate and fear in our hearts. We are human scum, and that is how history will judge us. . . No redeeming social value. Just whores. Get out of our way, or we'll kill you.

Well, sh*t on that dumbness. George W. Bush does not speak for me or my son or my mother or my friends or the people I respect in this world. We didn't vote for these cheap, greed little killers who speak for America today--and we will not vote for them again in 2002. Or 2004. Or ever.

Who does vote for these dishonest sh*theads? Who among us can be happy and proud of having all this innocent blood on our hands? Who are these swine? These flag-sucking half-wits who get fleeced and fooled by stupid little rich kids like George Bush?"

http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/02/rip-hst-hunter-s-thompson-has-passed.html
http://biggav.blogspot.com/2005/02/hunter-s.html

Al, I continue to be amazed that you can't recognise the clear parallels between the Soviet's Pravda propaganda organ and the Republican's Fox "News" propaganda organ. Maybe its because Pravda was a communist entity while Fox "News" is a fascist one ?

Again, you really must watch the documentaries "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdoch's War On Journalism" (http://www.outfoxed.org/) and "Orwell Rolls In His Grave" (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0410407/) for an examination of how this privatised propaganda network (run by Republican politician Roger Ailes) was constructed - it is also well worth reading "Into The Buzzsaw" (http://www.freedomofthepress.net/intothebuzzsaw.htm).

One wise American has even invented a propaganda filter for TVs called the "fox blocker" that filters out Fox from the airwaves:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002220590_foxblocker26.html?syndication=rss

Outfoxed is now on DVD release in Australia - which is good as most people won't have seen it in theatres as the Murdoch papers refused to allow adevrtisements for it to appear:
http://www.dv1.com.au/templates/tp_ThisPage.asp?pn=OUTFOXED+DVD+Release&pid=292&mpid=6&ptid=2&bcp=0

"OUTFOXED is a documentary from producer/director Robert Greenwald which provides an in-depth look at Rupert Murdoch's Fox News Channel and the increasing dangers to democracy when multi-national corporations take control of the public's right to know.

As the political dust settles from the Australian and American elections, OUTFOXED has emerged as one of the most talked about documentaries this year behind Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11. The issues raised in OUTFOXED relating to how the media deliberately feeds information and disinformation to the general public has become acutely pertinent.

A brilliantly executed exposé of the moral and ethical corruption inside Fox News, OUTFOXED reveals the tricks-of-the-trade implemented to manipulate and influence the viewing public. Featuring candid interviews with former Fox News producers, reporters, bookers and writers who discuss being forcefully coerced to push a 'right-wing' point-of-view or risk their jobs and livelihoods, OUTFOXED exposes the shocking hypocrisy behind Fox News Channel's 'Fair and Balanced' slogan."

Al,

I also find your aping of Bill "SHUT UP!" O'reilly's "out of respect for" line quite comical - you obviously think his disgusting treatment of the son of a victim of the September 11 attack on the world trade centre (http://www.politicalstrategy.org/archives/000953.php#953) to be something worthy of copying (which doesn't surprise me in the least).

Bill O'Reilly is a propagandist. This is well known and understood by all. He is also a buffoon, a thug and a pervert. Maybe you should learn a bit more about your hero before you hold him up as some sort of example - you are just opening yourself up to ridicule.

There is a great list of information about "SHUT UP!" O'Reilly here:
http://www.oreilly-sucks.com/billinfo.htm

Details of his sexual harrassment of one of the women who worked at Fox News can be found here (this guy really is a sicko - read the whole thing if you want to get an idea of what a twisted freak he is):
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1013043mackris1.html

biggav,

1. Don't equate head-hacking barbarian cowards with American troops who were faced with a car which refused to obey instructions. For all they knew it could have been a suicide bomber. The fault is with the driver.

2. I already stated that if the US was stealing oil, France, Russia and other opponents of the war and every anti-American fruitcake on the planet would be all over the TV with it.

3 Your radical clergyman's 14 points. America is a capitalist country and those matters are part of capitalism, including some which are not in the best interests of the majority. That doesn't make them "Fascist". If you think the Bush Admisistration is an all-powerful Fascist regime, why can't it even save the life of an unfortunate woman being deliberately starved to death?

4. How can it be a Fascist government when there is another large political party operating freely? How come there is freedom of speech, the Press, assembly, worship, movement? How come people like Michael Moore, ranting and raving and twisting the truth are allowed to say what they like? He'd be locked up in a Fascist state. Then there's the legal system where the prosecution is hamstrung by obstacles protecting the rights of the accused.
Where are the political prisoners' camps [gulags] and the "KGB" police?
You wouldn't know a Fascist state if it bit you on the bum

5. I haven't heard of any soldiers being affected by depleted uranium so it doesn't seem to be a problem. However, our servicemen must be given the best equipmant and best support to give them the best chance of doing their job safely.

6. You have smeared Bill O'Reilly's name on the basis of a woman's complaint. There are 2 sides to every story, and I wonder why she didn't quit if she was so offended by him. Why not only stay there, but actually leave and then RETURN to work for O'Reilly again? Sounds like she's not fair dinkum and is trying to make a fast buck. It DOES happen you know!

biggav, continuing on....
7. I say again, Bill O'Reilly gives all points of view a fair hearing. "Pravda" cerainly didn't do that. He even reads out e-mails attacking and abusing himself.! Pravda didn't do that, and neither to the best of my knowledge, does anyone on CNN or other networks.

8. You complain about "tricks of the trade". Do you imagine CNN or the other don't use tricks of the trade? No one is perfect and no organisation run by human beings can be perfect either.

9. You refer to the interview Bill did with the son of a victim of 9/11. The son was very provocative and was on for a fight and he got one . He wouldn't be the first person to have the plug pulled on him in a talk-back show.

10, Your idol Hunter S. Thompson sounds like a right real rabid ratbag. Is this where you get your flakey ideas?

Al, as usual you've got it all wrong - just angrily repeating your opinions doesn't make them true.

You say:
"Don't equate head-hacking barbarian cowards with American troops who were faced with a car which refused to obey instructions. For all they knew it could have been a suicide bomber. The fault is with the driver."

1. Iraqi fighters who perform atrocities against civilians are no different to american troops who torture prisoners to death, bomb hospitals and assassinate journalists who are trying to report the truth from Iraq.

Anyone who commits these crimes should be tried and hung. Being american doesn't give you the right to slaughter civilians.

2. You clearly don't have a clue about what happened in the assassination attempt on the italian journalist - read this for the details - there was no roadblock, they were on a secure road and had passed through several checkpoints, the tank fired on the car from behind - it was simply murder (one of many examples of US forces killing or attempting to kill journalists):
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/25/1516242

Even Berlusconi has now seen sense and the Italians are withdrawing from Iraq - following the Spanish, Poles, Ukrainians, Dutch and all the other European countries who have realised the invasion was wrong.

Al, you also say, in complete contravention of reality:
"I already stated that if the US was stealing oil, France, Russia and other opponents of the war and every anti-American fruitcake on the planet would be all over the TV with it."

Actually everyone is saying exactly this (what on earth do you think all those "no blood for oil" signs at the anti-war demonstrations around the world were about) - I've already provided numerous references to this earlier, including one from a Russian intelligence officer - how many hundred would you like ? Sure its not on commercial TV - do you think the Fox "News" propaganda service is interested in telling anyone this ? (naturally it has been mentioned on real news services like the ABC and SBS, but I doubt you ever watch Tv stations that have a statutory obligation to tell their viewers the facts, rather than some right wing extremist opinion)

You also mentioned alaskan oil - the new ANWR fields that were opened up contain about 1 year's worth of US oil consumption - they make absolutely no meaningful difference to delaying the onset of oil shortages, given the time that it will take to start producing and the 20 year period extraction will occur over - this site contains some details (about half the way in):
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Here's some more background on the US grab for Oil (hopefully you don't ignore this like you have all the other references I've provided you) - "Global Resource Wars - The Rosetta Stone" :
http://www.energybulletin.net/4894.html

How does that old saying go ? "There are none so blind as those who will not see"...

biggav, There is conflicting evidence about the case of the Italian car being fired on. There will certainly be a hearing over it, and we'll see how the cross examination goes.

As for your charge that the US is assassinating journalists, I find this hard to believe. Once again why aren't their editors, colleagues,governments and others [particularly America-haters] raising hell over it? Couldn't they be the victims of bullets and bombs from the terrorists? Could also be the result of being in the wrong place at the wrong time as journo's often are, taking the risk to get that story or that picture.

I remember one such case, where a sniper as firing on US troops from a building, and a journo was in the same building a floor or two below. They blasted the building and both got killed. The wrong place .....

Asfor the oil, your statement that it must be true because demonstrators with banners have blood fo roil" or similar on them doesn't carry any weight at all. Often these peple are organised by the International Socialists or whatever. They would say anything to attack America.

Also you say that you get your news from the ABC and SBS. They are both notoriously left-wing. You are supposed to be a right-winger. You completely dismiss 7, 9 and 10. I am sure that many if not most journo's are members or supporters of the ALP. Surely they would like to get something to clobber the Yanks, and by so doing, clobber John Howard? If you have all this information, why can't they get it and why don't they use it against America, and by association - Howard?

They cetainly grabbed and ran with the prisoner mistreatment scandal. Why not "the assassination of journalists by the US troops" and "America is stealing Iraq's oil"? Surely they would grab them with both hands! [As would Chirac, Putin, Iran and hosile Press generally].

biggav continuing..

The journo's certainly don't report things favourable to theAmericans, such as building schools, hosptals, other infrastructure, hundreds of new newspapers etc. They are certainly not "pro-American".

I will be away from my computer for a week from Sunday, so if this subject gets the chop in the meantime, maybe we will cross swords on something else.

Al, enjoy your holiday or whatever - its been fun.

I hope you read or watched some of the things I recommended - maybe slowly some of your brainwashing will fade and you'll understand some things better.

Please study the media a bit more carefully - once upon a time (not that long ago) there was a culture in journalism to study the facts and try to present an objective opinion without any political slant.

Media concentration, constant cost cutting on news reporting and Rupert Murdoch's push to use his media empire as a way to spread his political views have ended that culture, to the detriment of democracy.

If you can't bring yourself to watch something like "Outfoxed" or "Orwell Rolls in His Grave", then at least read some blogs covering the topic - this is a good one (and its apolitical):

http://dangillmor.typepad.com/

As for the oil argument - study the oil market for a while (its quite fascinating, particularly if you invest in energy stocks or trade oil futures) - the truth will become apparent over time.

"Peak oil" explains everything the US has done in the middle east since the Carter doctrine was first announced in 1980 - and it reflects very poorly on them.

I also think you need to understand politics as something other than a simple commie / conservative one dimensional continuum - things are a lot more complicated than that - there is an excellent diagram (grabbed from a thread at DKos that you'll no doubt find as offensive as everything I've told you - http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/30/35851/5400) that might make things a little clearer:

http://liberationlearning.org/graphic/_tradlib.gif

The libertarian position today is simple - authoritarianism can rear its ugly head on both the left and the right - and today its the right that is afflicted.

Thanks for your good wishes biggav. That was like a handshake after going 15 rounds! My wife works unselfishly for the family and needs a break every now and then,

The newspaper business has always had its own agenda in the form of the the political aims of its owners going back for yonks. I remember back in 1949, my Mother cancelled our paper because Sir Keith Murdoch [Rupe's father] was blatantly biased against the Chifley Government.

I will take a look at the blog on newspapers when I come back. It's been a challenging slog, and we'll probably do it again on a different subject. Next time I'm sure it will be a lot more polite.

Got to go. Goodbye for now.

A handshake is always good - I treat debating like I do sports - go as hard as you can but don't take anything that happens personally (feel free to come by either of my blogs when you finish your break and leave some dissenting comments - i quite enjoyed this).

I agree that media owners have always applied their own political slants - but when cities had 2 morning papers and 2 afternoon papers and you didn't have the concentration of ownership across all markets that we now have it wasn't so bad - you could find a media outlet to match your own views...

America is not doing managing Iraq well, and needs to change its priorities-fast. Currently the US is more focused on the "offensive" than the defensive. Although offense sounds better, it never works in wars that include guerilla war fare. When America jumps from town to town they only destroy terrorists that are on the surface, and when they leave any town they allow the terrorist to cultivate. This type of war fare does not work. Instead, America needs to stress its "Clear, Hold, and Build" plan far more. The Iraqi people will not have faith in their government, or the US if they do not feel they are stable. As Kenneth M. Pollack said in "the Right Way", "If the people are afraid to leave their homes-or worse still, if they are afraid even while in their homes-the guerillas and other forces of chaos have effectively won."