Well, certainly, Bazz, I don't think there's any useful empirical distinction to be made, as the manifesto seems to.

If 'we all know what we mean' refers to our myriad individual understandings, then it's no doubt the case.

Collectively, though, it depends on who 'we' are. If it were true in most general terms, there would be no disagreement in any domain between the priority to be given to one freedom over another. Disagreement over hot-button issues like abortion or euthanasia, for example, are often essentially about contested claims to freedom (or liberty).

Yuyu,

Actually it is the hadith not the quran that permits lying for the sake of Islam and takiyyah is more of a shia concept than that of sunnis.

No, I don't know all Muslims, obviously, but being Muslim implies an acceptance of the morals and precepts in the Quran and of the teachings and example of Mohammed. So, I see no logical problem with my statement.

When did I say that Muslims are not human? Of course they are, and they should have the same rights as you and me, no more and no less. However, they have no right to abridge my freedoms and opinions, or to not ever be offended.

To be honest, I have no idea why Muslims cannot reflect on the moral issues in the Quran or the evil deeds of their prophet. I have asked Muslims about these issues but the answers are pathetic and evasive. It seems that, for Muslims, words really don't mean anything and moral standards are dependent on time and place. I don't accept that!

You say that many Muslims are uncomfortable with the teachings in the Quran. Fine, so please indicate a link to a situation of this nature. Show me where a Muslim expresses discomfort with the hate and violence in the Quran or the evil deeds of their prophet. My experience is that some Muslims may say these are 'troubling' in private but will never express such doubts openly.

I am not sure about killing "violent and dangerous" Muslims. You do it because I am really not into the bloodshed thing.

And last but not least, it is not my culture. My dislike of Islam pales in comparison to my disgust with our leaders and nomenclatura. The West (in general terms) has lost its way and has become a cesspool of filth, irrationality, perversion and vacuous dogma masquerading as virtue and intelligence. It deserves everything that will happen to it, because we (collectively) have spit in the face of nature and logic.

That is enough for now. You take care.

jay

Ya know Lasxpriate, us ordinary folk don't look that deep into the problem. It's no wonder "Navel Gazers" have a high suicide rate. They have a tendency to get their knickers in a knot over the simplest of thing they can't come to grips with.

Really, who cares if there is a difference, to "Navel Gazers," on the "meanings" of Liberty & Freedom. Us ordinary folk know what we mean to one another & we don't get all huffy about it.

Dear Kactuz,

OK, I can live with this minimalistic definition:

1. All Muslims are bad and dangerous.
2. Bad and dangerous people should be expelled.
3. The fact that one was born to a Muslim father does not necessarily make them a Muslim.
4. The fact that one believes in Allah does not necessarily make them a Muslim.
5. The fact that one happens to fast on Ramadan, abstain from alcohol and pork, give charity, pray 5 times a day and make a pilgrimage to Mecca, etc., in itself doesn't qualify them as a Muslim.
6. Those who doubt the Quran are not Muslims (even if they are too afraid to expose their doubts publicly).
7. Those who fail to interpret the Quran in a violent way (including those who fail to interpret it at all because they haven't studied it) are not Muslims.

Fine. What it boils down to is that those who believe without doubt that the Quran is true and calls for violence, are dangerous and should be expelled as a measure of self-defence.
(but feel free to replace 'Quran' with any other book)

Grateful can stay, we need more people like him and his Sufi Sheikh!

---

Dear Jayb,

Call it "freedom" or "liberty", I don't care: No child (nor an adult for that matter) should ever be forced to sing anything.

Dear yutsie,

Call it "freedom" or "liberty", I don't care: No child (nor an adult for that matter) should ever be forced to be a moslem or be subject to any form of discrimination for not being a moslem. As non moslems are subject to in moslem countries. do it not?

Dear Jayb,

Absolutely so, yet it reminds of St. Francis:

O God, give us the serenity to accept what cannot be changed,
The courage to change what can be changed,
and the wisdom to know the one from the other.

By living in a democracy, the state is assumed to operate in my name and so I am obliged to prevent all evil that is done in my name. I am not similarly obliged to actively prevent all evil that is done by others.