Loudmouth
"So let's be honest: what does 'true' Islam stand for ? That Allah owns all the world, that his will must sooner or later be extended over all the world, by one means or another, that men and women are most certainly not equal, that extermination is an option for non-believers and the only way to 'live in peace', to 'share all the world', is if all humanity either surrenders (submits, conforms, whatever nicer word you like to use) to Islam or is exterminated. Except, of course, young women, who must serve the angels of Islam while they still have their looks."

Loudmouth wants to be a part of the problem, rather than the solution.

Let's be honest, as you say, and explain that his description relates to ISIS. ISIS could not be exterminating and enslaving people like the Yazidi and other minorities if they had not been living there in the first place. The reason they are living there is because they were protected by various Muslim rulers and Islam which respects other religions and allows them to practice freely. ISIS are killing Muslims who do not ascribe to their ideology. I, as a Muslim, would be killed if i was there. Boko Haram has been on a killing spree in including 40 people in a mosque in Nigeria! These are Muslims standing for the same values that Loadmouth ascribes to the Western enlightenment (values that in fact were derived from Islamic influences) . Loudmouth in fact is not being honest.

Thank you, Grateful.

When you write, "These are Muslims standing for the same values that Loudmouth ascribes to the Western enlightenment....", I applaud them for doing so. But, with respect, I query your proviso that "(values that in fact were derived from Islamic influences)."

Can you indicate where there might be any evidence of Enlightenment values in Islam before the current period: and in particular, Islamic influences from which enlightenment values in the West may have been derived ?

But when you suggest that "... ISIS could not be exterminating and enslaving people like the Yazidi and other minorities if they had not been living there in the first place. The reason they are living there is because they were protected by various Muslim rulers... ", do you realise how fascist that sounds ? I don't mean former Muslim rulers but about ISIS ?

Are you then suggesting that ISIS are a bunch of Islamic fascists ? If so, I fully agree. And yet, they claim to be following the Koran to the letter, isn't that so ?

That the Yazidis would not be getting exterminated if they weren't there in the first place. Wow. I'm still not sure how to take that. Are you suggesting that it is somehow the Yazidis' fault that their women are being shot and enslaved ? And their men and boys being shot as well ? They shouldn't have been there anyway ? Surely you are not suggesting this ?

Joe

"Are you then suggesting that ISIS are a bunch of Islamic fascists ? If so, I fully agree. And yet, they claim to be following the Koran to the letter, isn't that so ?

That the Yazidis would not be getting exterminated if they weren't there in the first place. Wow. I'm still not sure how to take that. Are you suggesting that it is somehow the Yazidis' fault that their women are being shot and enslaved ? And their men and boys being shot as well ? They shouldn't have been there anyway ? Surely you are not suggesting this ?"

Why the cheap shots? Do you need a hug? We should be on the same page, supporting the same values, despite differences of opinion about God, except for the fact that your trying to foster hatred to my family and my Muslim community.

As for role of Islam in the Enlightenment, I presume you would agree there would never have been the Enlightenment without something called the "scientific method".

There are a number of references available, some of which are conveniently listed here: http://www.twf.org/Library/Renaissance.html

For an idea of just how profound the influence has been, I offer the following from: The ISLAMIC FOUNDATION OF THE RENAISSANCE by Hugh Bibbs (source: http://www.medievalhistory.net/scientia.htm).

He writes:
"The Muslim expansion into Spain in A.D.1085 brought with it a new world view and new learning previously unknown in Europe, such as the technology of papermaking. The scholars of Islam in Spain also brought with them a vast body of empirical studies in natural science developed by generations of men from traditions ancient and contemporary who all spoke from outside of the narrow world view of the Catholic Church articulated by St. Augustine of Hippo.

Included in the Arabic libraries were a fully developed mathematics of physics and astronomy, and the ancient Greek medical texts of Hippocrates and Galen, as well as the entire body of Aristotle's writings. The Arabs massive written record of non-Christian discussion included new ideas supported by incontrovertible proofs of evidence or logic, and some of these valid new ideas contradicted outright their corollary forms as taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

The recovery of this ancient learning, supplemented by what the Arabs had gained from the Orient and from their own observations, constituted the intellectual rebirth of Europe. The Theocentric world view of Europe was further shaken throughout the twelfth and thirteenth centuries as the Europeans who went east to fight in the crusades discovered for themselves that their infidels had a higher civilisation. The Muslims had hospitals, sewers, irrigation, and for battle, heavy artillery in the form of great iron cross bows. In debate, the Muslims were more sensible, with their background in Aristotle. For Europeans, it was the worst form of culture shock: the discovery of their own backwardness."

Alternatively, if you prefer docos, then there is this BBC Documentary: ISLAM's contribution to Europe and Influence to European Renaissance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nznATCvo5Y

Grateful, just a few points, sewers were in use in Rome & other Roman
cities much earlier than perhaps you realised. Also running water for
the citizens use by means of the aquaducts and piping was in use long
before Islam existed.

I have been puzzled by the scientific advance that occurred in Spain
during the occupation.
As we see it now, the damage to moslem DNA because of the inbreeding
since Allah permitted (or before ?)the marriage of cousins has
resulted in a 13% incidence of genetic problems greater than the rest of the population.

Is it possible that the North African moslems that invaded Spain did
not practise cousin marriage ?

Hi Grateful,

I don't think that Democritus or Hippocrates or Galen were Muslim ? In short, the scientific method was known and practised by Greek scientists, Archimedes for example, a thousand years before any Muslim existed. For logic, perhaps Heraclitus, around 1100 years before Islam, and certainly Aristotle some 200 years later.

What someone picks up from a scroll or book in a library is not necessarily what they have devised themselves, they're merely passing it on. As Bibbs points out in your quote, it was 'recovery' rather than origination.

I think paper-making may have been invented in China or South-East Asia: the Polynesians used to beat out mulberry bark into 'tapa' cloth and decorate it with beautiful designs, thousands of years ago.

From faulty memory, I recall that Mohenjo-Daro, in the Indus Valley, was a city with sewers (and flush toilets), some four thousand years ago. Maybe Angkor as well. Perhaps those cities with sewers had them already before they were invaded by the Muslims.

And certainly, many, many societies had irrigation systems long, long before Islam - the Sumerians in lower Mesopotamia perhaps as early as 3000 BC - indeed, perhaps all of the 'pagan' societies of the Fertile Crescent; the ancient Indians in the five rivers maybe four or five thousand years ago.

Angkor, again: its whole raison d'etre was its irrigation systems.

Certainly the Romans did, perhaps the Mayans.

And of course, the Nabataeans around Petra, a thousand years before Islam.

Perhaps even some New Guinean groups in the Highlands.

And of course, the Chinese, maybe five or even six thousand years ago.

Perhaps even many of the oasis economies across Arabia and north Africa, and long before Islam ever got going.

Hi Bazz,

My understanding is that the Muslims who invaded Spain under Gibr-ul-Tariq were mostly Berber, 'Moors', which has tended to mean that north-western corner of Africa ever since the region was a Roman province.

You learn so much on OLO !

Joe