Hi Grateful,

I can appreciate the dilemma that you face, that a vile group like ISIS is acting in the name of Islam, and that it can 'justify' its vile actions by reference to the Koran. Yes, as you suggest, it most certainly is not acting on behalf of all Muslims, who can also cite the Koran to support THEIR points of view. You have my sympathy.

All books of belief are compilations made at different times and in different circumstances, so there are bound to be inconsistencies and even contradictions within them. I suppose a believer has to carefully select what he or she wants to use as a guide, and what he or she wants to either ignore or reject. Such personal struggles must be painful and full of regrets, and the tension between an outward, public appearance and an inner, personal conviction must be enormous.

Best wishes,

Joe

Joe,

You and Bazz provide a very unusual response to my previous post. Originally i had stated: "These are Muslims standing for the same values that Loadmouth ascribes to the Western enlightenment (values that in fact were derived from Islamic influences)"
You responded with a question:

"Can you indicate where there might be any evidence of Enlightenment values in Islam before the current period: and in particular, Islamic influences from which enlightenment values in the West may have been derived ?"

I responded with a ranges of references and one quote to indicate the fundamental influence of Islamic scholarship, but then you and Bazz start arguing, in your words, that "the scientific method was known and practiced by Greek scientists, Archimedes for example, a thousand years before any Muslim existed."

so what...You totally missed the point of your own question! Without a leg to stand on or willingness to acknowledge well established fact, you and Bazz instead decided to set up your own strawman.

Joe
The problem is not whether I interpret the Koran differently from another. The problem stems from those who interpret the Koran and issue fatwas without the scholarly authority to do so, just as you would not want medical treatment from anyone other than those with the proper training.

To have authority to speak means to have ijaza in a particular field of study: they are authorised by their teacher who is in turn authorised by his teacher and so on down to the companions of the Prophet. They can show you the chain of teachers (sisila) leading back to the Prophet. As al-Yaquobi states, Islam is not something you get from books, it is oral from someone who has both the authority and the spiritual state to pass on the knowledge. Yet as Muhamoud al-Yaquobi points out these ISIS guys are making up their own fatwas without regard to mainstream Islam and scholars.

You need to watched the lecture by Muhamoud al-Yaquobi, as well as study the teachings of Islam from real scholars, to have any idea of the issues involved. You'll be able to gain a better understanding from the articles and talks at the same website(http://masud.co.uk/). You might also visit Sheikh Nuh’s website, where you’ll find excerpts from his recorded lessons covering a wide range of issues (http://untotheone.com/) include an A-Z index on the homepage. Courses that will give you direct exposure to the teaching of Islam can be found here https://www.qibla.com/

As for your remarks about inconsistency: A cheap shot but I'll treat this as a positive sign. Although you are not yet willing to undergo the fundamental paradigm shift required to accept certain facts about Islam (based solely on the research of non-Muslim scholars), you're at least becoming aware that a problem exists with your view of the world. Otherwise why would you feel so compelled create a non-issue about who invented what first in a desperate attempt to avoid acknowledging well-established facts.... or rely on cheap shots?

You need to do a lot more research.

Greatfull,
Straw men, hmm.
My question about why there was an intellectual surge amongst moslems
in Spain during the occupation ?
Considering the custom of marrying cousins for several thousand years
why was it possible to have such a surge considering the high level of
genetic defects among moslems ?
I asked was it because the moslems that came from Nth West Africa did
not practise cousin marriage ?

Our health & education services are facing a problem with moslem
families here in Australia now. No one seems to be pushing for a ban
but it will take many generations to weed out the problem if it was banned now.

Hi Grateful,

I'm sorry but I don't understand your response. You claimed, "As for role of Islam in the Enlightenment, I presume you would agree there would never have been the Enlightenment without something called the "scientific method". "

And Bazz and I gave you examples of the conscious application by Greeks, well over a thousand years before Islam, of the 'scientific method'.

[I should add, by the way, that I am glad to acknowledge the contributions that Islamic (both Sunni and Shi'ite) and Jewish scholars made to retrieving, preserving, duplicating and disseminating many of the works of those early Greek scientists, across the Muslim and Indian worlds, and into Europe.]

So, what point did we miss ? You asserted something, we responded with information, now you assert again. Do you understand that time doesn't work backwards - that if (a) Greeks worked on the development of the scientific method a thousand or 1500 years BEFORE (b) Islamic and Jewish scholars passed it on (presumably in Spain?), then since (a) came BEFORE (b), it follows that Greek scientists were consciously using the scientific method, which is but one aspect of the forerunners of the Enlightenment, [I repeat: 'forerunners'], long BEFORE any Islamic scholars, and perhaps even before any Jewish or Indian scholars either.

Other Enlightenment values, hard fought for and painfully and slowly developed (and still in process), include freedoms of expression and of belief, the universal brotherhood of all human beings regardless of belief, the universal equality of men and women, and of all people regardless of class, belief or ethnicity: what you might call, for short: liberty, fraternity and equality. Can you give us any examples of early Islamic scholarship in these fields ?

Thank you,

Joe

"You have no reason to believe that ISIS represents Islam or that I am a supporter of ISIS"...."and yet you make these assertions based on what?"

Speaking of straw-men, I didn't make that assertion. I assert that only Muslims can deliver us true security against jihadism. I've no doubt some are quietly working at it, but we need more loudly proclaiming their opposition to jihad and exhorting their co-religionists to expose it and to follow a peaceful path, particularly the young. We don't need any more assertions about peaceful Islam, we need action.

I watched your linked video and it made me happy thank you, but this was posted elsewhere: http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/8860.htm

What are you doing about this other than spruiking Islam? The Muslim community is virtually impenetrable to outsiders, so we rely on it to solve our problem. Please do your bit and exhort other Muslims to do the same. If you feel unsafe you will get police protection.

Please, somebody help. All we're getting is stupid Grand Mufti statements that are clarified, then re-clarified, but never outright condemnation or a call to Oz muslims to attack the problem root and branch, as does the editor of the Iraqi Daily. That man is a courageous, and you should follow his lead, grateful instead of jerking your knee.

Loudmouth summed up your dilemma well, but it could have been said in two words, cognitive dissonance.