Hi Luciferase.

It's interesting how some Muslims argue, isn't it ? They take your words, twist or misquote them, and then blame you for creating a straw-man. A bit childish, the sort of 'arguing' that a smart-arse teenager would use, but sometimes quite entertaining.

I agree with you, except on one point, when you suggest that 'The Muslim community is virtually impenetrable to outsiders, so we rely on it to solve our problem.'

No, I don't think it is, in the first instance, OUR problem - it certainly may become our problem if it's not resolved, but its resolution is primarily the obligation of Muslims. As you also point out, there is not much non-Muslims can do except offer our love, compassion and understanding to those courageous Muslims who want to root out Islamo-fascism, and in the longer term reform Islam, and live peacefully with their fellow-Australians.

I'm trying to read some Koranic verses every day at random, and these came up today, from a surah called 'The Bee'
[on http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/browse.html ]:

'[16.25] That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.

[16.26] Those before them did indeed devise plans, but Allah demolished their building from the foundations, so the roof fell down on them from above them, and the punishment came to them from whence they did not perceive.

[16.27] Then on the resurrection day He will bring them to disgrace and say: Where are the associates you gave Me, for whose sake you became hostile? Those who are given the knowledge will say: Surely the disgrace and the evil are this day upon the unbelievers:'

I'm trying to interpret them: is it foretelling the French demolition of buildings in Raqqa, I wonder ?

Another verse tomorrow :)

Cheers,

Joe

Joe wrote
"[I should add, by the way, that I am glad to acknowledge the contributions that Islamic (both Sunni and Shi'ite) and Jewish scholars made to retrieving, preserving, duplicating and disseminating many of the works of those early Greek scientists, across the Muslim and Indian worlds, and into Europe.] "

From W. Montgommery Watt The Influence of Islam on Medieval Europe

“In speaking of Arab achievements in science and philosophy, the important question to ask is: ‘how far were the Arabs transmitters of what the Greeks had discovered and how far did they make original contributions?’ Many Europeans seem to approach the subject with some prejudice against the Arabs. Even some of those who praise them do so grudgingly. … It is clearly difficult to give a balanced assessment of the scientific achievements of the Arabs when one becomes aware of the prejudice against them - which is doubtlessly linked to the distorted image of Islam.”pp16-17

“Certainly, it was in the twelfth century that European scholars interested in science and philosophy came to appreciate how much they had to learn from the Arabs and set about studying Arabic works in these disciplines and translating the chief of them into Latin.” p. 58

“Arabic thought provided European thought with new materials and brought within its purview a whole new world of metaphysics. All strands of European thought had to take cognizance of the translations from Arabic.” p.69

cont..

cont...

“When one keeps hold of all the facets of the medieval confrontation of Christianity and Islam, it is clear that the influence of Islam on western Christendom is greater than is usually realized. Not merely did Islam share with Western Europe many material products and technological discoveries; not merely did it stimulate Europe intellectually in the fields of science and philosophy; but it provoked Europe into forming a new image of itself. Because Europe was reacting against Islam, it belittled the influence of the Saracens and exaggerated its dependence on its Greek and Roman heritage. So, today an important task for us western Europeans, as we move into the era of the one world, is to correct this false emphasis and to acknowledge fully our debt to the Arab and Islamic world.” p. 83

Joe wrote:
"Other Enlightenment values, hard fought for and painfully and slowly developed (and still in process), include freedoms of expression and of belief, the universal brotherhood of all human beings regardless of belief, the universal equality of men and women, and of all people regardless of class, belief or ethnicity: what you might call, for short: liberty, fraternity and equality. Can you give us any examples of early Islamic scholarship in these fields ?"

A very important question. I will need time ... perhaps the the next week or so to provide the examples you are requesting.

For the moment, let me offer you the following statement from Marcel A. Boisard, "Humanism in Islam", pp77-78, for reflection.

"The principle of equality is the cornerstone of the Islamic social edifice; it has fashioned the construction thereof. History clearly shows that Islam managed to develop a homogeneous and integrated society without classes, in which the claim of "liberty, equality, and fraternity" (the main motivations of the revolts of the West) could not have stirred up true feelings since it did not fulfill a real need. The basic principle of absolute equality of all men brings into focus the other two terms of the slogan -- fraternity and liberty --by encompassing, or more exactly, transcending them."

Joe wrote:
"
I'm trying to interpret them: is it foretelling the French demolition of buildings in Raqqa, I wonder ?

Another verse tomorrow :)
"

I'll look forward to it and encourage others to do the same. For a scholar, the next step would be to provide evidence in support of your interpretation.

Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubihad holds some notion that non-Muslims should have been over the moon, during the Ottoman empire, at being allowed to maintain their religion provided they submitted to being second-class citizens, taxation, and having their sons removed and turned into Muslim soldiers (the millet system). One doesn't need an imagination to know what the alternative was.

What equality, fraternity and liberty wass this? Oh well, it was a change to the conquest and plunder economy of the preceding caliphates, but being Armenian wasn't too good for one's health.

Now, let's all put back on our rose-coloured glasses and have grateful continue to lead us on his scholarly reverie.

How about doing something useful, grateful, like leading/joining your community in root and branch change towards peace. Spruiking Islam can wait.