Hi Grateful,

While we're waiting, I thought I'd put up the 'Verse of Peace' along with neighbouring verses:

"[5.32] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,
[5.34] Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[5.35] O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.
[5.36] Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, even if they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like of it with it, that they might ransom themselves with it from the punishment of the day of resurrection, it shall not be accepted from them, and they shall have a painful punishment.
[5.37] They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.

Fascinatingly brutal.

[TBC]

[continued]

[5.38] And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
[5.39] But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[5.40] Do you not know that Allah-- His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; He chastises whom He pleases; and forgives whom He pleases and Allah has power over all things."

From an atheist point of view, it's strange how all 'gods' are tyrants, none of them seem to have the slightest tendency towards equality, democracy, etc. They all dictate, punish, tip people limb from limb - and yet we are all supposed to be crated in his (or her) image. That's a bit like making a clay image of oneself then stomping on it. Weird.

Religions seem to be devised at a stage in people's history when they have barely any knowledge of the outside world, feel threatened by it (especially its 'new' ideas), fear and hate what they do perceive, and take brutal autocracy within their groups for granted. So they imagine that, if there is a supernatural, a heaven, with gods, then it reproduces human society as they know it. So then, they put their picture of it into a book which nobody can question, and thenceforth people are stuck with it.

Give me atheism any day :)

Joe

Hi Grateful,

Today's verses, an entire surah actually, it's quite short:

The Dawn

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[113.1] Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of the dawn,
[113.2] From the evil of what He has created,
[113.3] And from the evil of the utterly dark night when it comes,
[113.4] And from the evil of those who blow on knots,
[113.5] And from the evil of the envious when he envies

Is Allah supposed to be the Lord of the Dawn here ? Dark nights are evil ? And from 113.2 above, did Allah create evil ?

Elsewhere, the Koran talks of witches blowing on knots, I forget where - so is witchcraft part of what Muslims believe in ? Did Allah create witches ? And it's evil to be envious ? So if Muslims are a bit envious of the West, they are evil ?

So confusing !

It's interesting that there seems to be some equivalence of the evil of dark nights, witches and envious people, all equally evil. Actually there's a lot of obscure talk about evil in the Koran, Mohamed seemed to be obsessed with it, and given the abysmal level of general knowledge in those days, who can blame him. But it's a bit like equating nuclear war, car thieves and taking selfies as equally 'evil'.

I wonder what a psychologist would make of all this obsession with evil: transference, projection, or just suspicion and paranoia ?

And why, in the Koran, are the longest surahs first, and the shortest last ? As a way of learning to read, someone told me - which is a bit like suggesting that children should learn to read by progressing from 'War and Peace', or the 1900-page 'Elements of Land Law' to 'Nip and Fluff'. And from there to picture books.

[TBC]

[continued]

Not to mention that the surahs are completely un-chronological. So are parts of the Bible of course - Revelations, the first book written, coming last in the New Testament, for example. So I suppose both sets of books are similarly hopeless jumbles.

After all, they weren't meant to be read at all, except by priests, hence the incomprehensible (to most) languages they were/are written in - Latin in the case of the Bible, Old Arabic in the case of Muhamed's Koran. Once the printing press was invented in the 15th century, the Bible was the most printed book - something like a billion copies by 1500. But then, came demands for it to be printed in local languages - hence, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the Anabaptists, etc., and the disestablishment of the Catholic church as the one and only church.

The first printing press in the Muslim world was set up in Constantinople in 1824. Make what you like of that.

Belief and unquestioning acceptance go together. Truth and criticism go together. Unquestioning acceptance and criticism can't ever go together. So a decision lies there for all of us: which path do we choose ?

Joe

Hi Grateful,

In the book rumoured to have been handed down to Muhamed from Allah, this intriguing passage occurs:

[53.49] And that He is the Lord of the Sirius;
[53.50] And that He did destroy the Ad of old
[53.51] And Samood, so He spared not
[53.52] And the people of Nuh before; surely they were most unjust and inordinate;
[53.53] And the overthrown cities did He overthrow,
[53.54] So there covered them that which covered.
[53.55] Which of your Lord's benefits will you then dispute about?
[53.56] This is a warner of the warners of old.
[53.57] The near event draws nigh.
[53.58] There shall be none besides Allah to remove it.

and

[71.21] Nuh said: My Lord! surely they have disobeyed me and followed him whose wealth and children have added to him nothing but loss.
[71.22] And they have planned a very great plan.
[71.23] And they say: By no means leave your gods, nor leave Wadd, nor Suwa; nor Yaghus, and Yauq and Nasr.
[71.24] And indeed they have led astray many, and do not increase the unjust in aught but error.
[71.25] Because of their wrongs they were drowned, then made to enter fire, so they did not find any helpers besides Allah.
[71.26] And Nuh said: My Lord! leave not upon the land any dweller from among the unbelievers:
[71.27] For surely if Thou leave them they will lead astray Thy servants, and will not beget any but immoral, ungrateful (children).

Are Wadd, Suwa, Yaghus, etc. rival gods ? And who was Nuh ? Another god, a sort of minor god ?

Presumably, all this pre-dates Muhammad actually being given the book ? So other gods existed before, or alongside of, Allah ?

That 7.27 has overtones of the Pharaoh in Moses' time, or Herod in Jesus' time, slaughtering all male children [or in this case, the parents as well]. A bit like ISIS in our time.

Although one can be tempted by that thought of 'immoral, ungrateful children.'

Cheers,

Joe