Speaking of half-wits....

Yes Grateful ?
I take it that it would not be a problem for you.

Typical comment from someone but for the grace of God goes He.
To increase the risk deliberately should be a criminal offense.
It is the cruelest thing anyone could do to child.

Joe said
"One of the problems with an 'appeal to authority' is that it means nothing to anybody for whom that 'authority' is an idiot."

Its interesting. You are an atheist whose mantra should be "show me the proof, the evidence.....". I'm prepare to offer you evidence, but you prejudge and describe 'authority' as idiotic.

I was raised in a family of atheists. The only believer was Pa, who said he believed in God, but also believed that the Bible had been corrupted. So in a sense i see myself walking along the same path as my grandfather.

You ask me to put my views to the test "and if they are solid, they will stand up to scrutiny in discussion with others"

Given my background, an appropriate starting point would be my view that the Quran has not been corrupted. This is something that is refutable. Its been done with the Bible. You just need to come up with evidence that the version today has been altered in some way from what existed in the past. This of course would need to be supported by serious scholars in Islam.

And I'll put my cards on the table. Refuting this view would undermine my faith, particularly as the Qur'an itself makes a prediction that it will not be corrupted:

"We, Ourselves, have sent down the Dhikr (the Qur’an), and We are there to protect it." 15:9

In reference to this verse, Mufti Taqi Usmani (whose interpretation of the Quran is, I'm told, authoritative) has said: "Here Allah Almighty has taken upon Himself that the Holy Qur'an will remain intact for all times to come, and no one will be able to change it, as it happened with earlier Scriptures" . http://www.maarifulquran.net/

So in refuting my view you would also be proving that the Quran cannot be the word of God (since God does not make false predictions).

Over to you.....

Oh Bazz, you've argued me into a corner...I give up. Please show mercy!

Joe said . "so in his own words, he praises himself ?"

I could not have said it better myself.

Now reflect on who YOU are in reality. Are you the skin and bone and muscle and nerves that make up your physical existance? the product of an evolving species and civilisation? Or are you the one who seeks to express himself through art, words, beliefs, rituals in a manner that is no different from our forefathers who we know through their cave paintings and artifacts as well as their remains

Hi Grateful,

Sorry, your 'authorities' mean nothing to me, no more than the 'authority' of the pope or chief rabbi or Dalai Llama.

What do YOU think and believe, what have YOU learnt from your experience ? That's what counts.

And since the Koran seems to be riddled with contradictions - verses of a 'religion of peace' alongside some of the most brutal and bloodthirsty verses - I'm not inclined to take any more notice of anything that it proclaims than I would be of biblical verses from three or four thousand years ago.

But I had to laugh at your suggestion that some god 'created time'. Oh. Right. Okay. Well, why not, when in people's minds you can do absolutely anything ? What, everything was on freeze-frame - all those dinosaurs and trilobites ? birds and insects suspended in air ? Okay, with a click of the godly fingers, it all came to life ?

And you know that, how ? Since, after all, as you point out, the Koran itself says nothing about how it all began. It's a pity, then, that whoever put the Koran together didn't 'borrow' bits from the early verses of Genesis in the Old Testament, like it did other bits and pieces. At least, then, it could present an origin myth.

I thought this thread might wither, but no. Okay, today's verses, from 'The Clot':

[96.9] Have you seen him who forbids
[96.10] A servant when he prays?
[96.11] Have you considered if he were on the right way,
[96.12] Or enjoined guarding (against evil)?
[96.13] Have you considered if he gives the lie to the truth and turns (his) back?
[96.14] Does he not know that Allah does see?

I still prefer Monty Python :)

Joe