Jadine, I thought you were a woman!! Now I am worried!!

Maybe I am old but 70+ women doesn’t seem like paradise to me.

The Islamic paradise (janna) is really a very complicated thing. It seems that the experts and authorities are not sure if there will be 70 or 72 virgins (actually houris) or 2 wives or both, or even little boys!! Yes, little boys, in fact the Quran (52:24, 56:17-19) says more about little boys that the houris (or grapes?)… At least we know there will be houris, boys and rivers of wine.

Also the Quran is silent on the fate of women believers. Most think that the reward for a Muslima in paradise will be… Ta-tat-a-dah – her husband! So old Almed beats Fatima for thirty years and makes her life miserable. He goes off to jihad and dies. She also dies, after a few years of peace. In paradise, Ahmed gets unlimited pleasure and Fatima gets Ahmed. It doesn’t seem fair to me.

Then there is the fact that most people in hell are women (http://islamqa.info/en/21457). Islam’s prophet doesn’t say if they are Muslim women or just unbelievers, but the context seems to indicate they are in fact muslims. Maybe that would be better for Fatima. The 'more women in hell' theory really doesn’t make sense, if we crunch the numbers, because that means infidel men are less likely to go to hell also. Go figure.

Then there is the whole eschatology thing. Even less than the afterlife, the Quran is basically silent on what the Christians call the “end times”. To me, I think is that sometime in the 10 and 11th centuries, Muslim scholars felt kind of cheated because they had no quranic end-times theology. So the took the Christian version, made a few adaptations, presto, and they too have a madhi, big battles, and end of world scenario.

See, Islam is fun -- and funny!! I am rambling, but that’s ok

Like most atheists, I'm sure, I've struggled consciously all my life to live by, and to enrich, a sense of right and wrong. I haven't had a book to tell me what is supposed to be right or wrong, good or bad. Like most atheists, I've tried to go by what is my heart, and my mind. It isn't that hard, actually.

As an atheist, I really wonder if many believers have a genuine sense of right or wrong, apart from what they are told or, less likely, read: that, really there is nothing else in their hearts. I hope there is.

Yes, I've met some wonderful Christians, good people who obviously have developed a rich sense of right and wrong, good and bad, good people who are concerned about their fellow-human being, even if he or she is not a believer, but just that - a fellow human being. And I don't think that their rich sense of right and wrong is necessarily bound solely to their reliance on a book, but simply because they do genuinely love their fellow human beings.

I'm sure that many Muslims (and Buddhists and Hindus, of course) would have developed an equivalent sense of good and bad, right and wrong, either as well as, or above and beyond, what may be in their books or rituals. They are human beings too after all, and in a genuine, equality-oriented, fair-go, multicultural society, they would surely be bound to have developed friendships across religious - and non-religious - barriers.

I certainly hope so, because if I can, I presume so can they. If I can weep for the thousands killed this week in Nigeria, I'm sure so can they. If I can feel outrage at the murder of children by IS in Syria, of Yazidis in Iraq, then surely so can they. I have to believe that.

Je suis Baga. Je serai Baga encore.

Joe

kactuz
"The 'more women in hell' theory really doesn’t make sense, if we crunch the numbers, because that means infidel men are less likely to go to hell also."

Presumably Allah could re-adjust the numbers at will without regard to the laws of biology and mathematics, re-attach hymens, anything. Nothing would be too much for his ineffable powers. Anyway, that's the theory I'm going with. Whee! This theology stuff is easy.

One good thing to come of this whole sorry affair is the outbreak of fragments of schoolboy French throughout the Anglosphere. Malcolm Turnbull stunned us with "Nous sommes Charlie", and then someone else chimed in with "Je ne suis Charlie". I was only waiting for "La plume de ma tante" to make the whole thing worth it after all.

However on the subject of virgins, it has occurred to me that deflowering 72 *in this life* might be a way to have the benefits of paradise without the detriments of martyrdom.

How come you didn't think of that NC?

Secular = separation of church and state.

(Liberal) Democracy = a system involving distribution of political power in the hands of the public which forms the electorate, representative government, freedom of speech and protection of individual rights.

One Islamic scholar read the possibility of secular democracy into the Quran, and wrote a book about it, leading to his repression and re-education before he could rejoin society, lucky to live to old age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abdel_Raziq

The pejorative Islamic view appears to be that secular democracy is amoral, yet Muslims flock to live where it exists. Of course, some can't help themselves and bring along their Shari'a, a la Charlie Hebdo, committing sacrilege against the beliefs and values of the society that nurtures them, and without too much complaint from their Muslim community. The future looks grim:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/charlie-hebdo-cover-we-are-not-charlie-say-the-dissenting-voices-angered-further-by-french-solidarity-9976166.html

Jews can see the writing on the wall and are leaving France.

What is written on a dollar bill makes the USA a theocracy in the eyes of those too blind to recognize a historical vestige. Sadly true, however, is that the religious right in secular USA will be strengthened by recent and developing polarizing events.

Correction: not even amoral, but immoral.

Jardine,

You are not kidding, nothing is be too much for Allah's ineffable powers.

Back to paradise.... A couple is in paradise, the bloke has taken some time off from his virgins and as returned home because his wife needs him to move the furniture.

Now he is really tired (all that shagging!) and the furniture is really heavy. So what to do? He needs help!

He grabs the wifey, they do a quick wham-bang and ... pronto, they have a child, a boy, and in one hour he is full grown!

Now he can move the furniture; he has help. See how easy things are for Muslims in paradise! Allah is really a jolly good fellow.

Allah can do just about anything but solve the problems of the Muslim world and keep his faithful from killing each other (and us!).

Need a source? http://islamqa.info/en/111777

... narrated by at-Tirmidhi (2563) in his Sunan from Abu Sa‘eed al-Khudri (may Allah be pleased with him) who said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “If the believer wishes for a child in Paradise, the pregnancy, birth and growth will occur within an hour, as he wishes.” Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami‘.What is meant is that the pregnancy will occur and the child will be born and will grow to the age of perfection, which is thirty years, as the person wishes, i.e., the child will be male or female and so on, in accordance with the person’s wishes.