"Kactuz, one can not put out fire by throwing fire over it."

Yes one can, by using high explosives and denying the fire oxygen.

Luciferase,

"Yes, it's called "secular democracy", but you disagree with this."

There is finality in your tone .....and then you speak on my behalf, with finality too. So where is room for my opinion? You sound like; "there is only one way, my way."
No Luciferase, there can be more than one ways of doing a thing correctly. We need to listen and when we talk of mutual coexistence, we must Listen and accommodate.

On the question of introspection in Islam. I personally feel there is dire need of this. Growth in Islamic thinking has been static since centuries. There are however voices stressing progress in this regard and I quote one here; "there is no such thing as finality in philosophical thinking. As knowledge advances and fresh avenues of thought are opened, other views, and probably sounder views ... are possible. Our duty is carefully to watch the progress of human thought, and to maintain an independent critical attitude towards it."(Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam,Iqbal)
All is not well with Muslims today, yes they need lot of introspection.
People in west, need to understand the ground realities and not lump them simplistically as inherent flaws of Islam.

"There a general view in the Islamic world that the violence done by its followers is self-defensive,...."

Do you really believe that there is a war going on between the Muslims and the rest of the world.? There could be nothing more idiotic for Muslims to pursue. They have bigger wars to win; the war on ignorance, war on poverty, war on internal disunity and so on.

Events in the Middle East make no sense, if seen purely as religiously motivated. Remember, these events are continuation of invasion of Saddam's Iraq which was a secular country and had nothing to do with Islam.

As I said earlier, we are living in interesting times and we need to keep our eyes open and we should not let ourselves be fooled into beliefs that some kind of war is being waged for Islam by the puppets and stooges of IS.

Earlier I asked you to "Join me in condemning any religious ideology that threatens secular democracy."

You answered, "I do not agree with you, but respect you for your honesty, as against those who are one eyed on the subject."

Then, in my last post, I assume your answer is unchanged and guess at your reasoning behind it, as you provided none. Now you chastise me for guessing and still shirk opportunity to lay yourself bare. What is your proposal as to how we can live together? Benevolent Islamic theocracy? Enough vacuous soothings about listening and accommodating while offering nothing.

As for the rest of your post, where do I begin? It's no use continuing. Your statement, "...we should not let ourselves be fooled into beliefs that some kind of war is being waged for Islam by the puppets and stooges of IS." tells me how far you've stooped to avoid reasonable critique of Islam, despite agreeing that "All is not well with Muslims today, yes they need lot of introspection"

Enough from me.

Hi McAdam/NC,

Computer problems. So much to respond to, so few posts.

As to your self-pitying query: "what took you ages to say any thing against other religions?"

As an atheist, I'm a equal-time critic: I've been racking my brains thinking back about any terrorist attacks by Baptists, or Seventh-Day Adventists, or even those people that come door-to-door, but I can't recall any terrorist attacks lately by Christians. Perhaps you would like to go back to the British attacks on the Arab slave trade in the nineteenth century, or the attempts back in the Crusades by Christians to get their territories back ?

But nothing much recently. Perhaps Methodists have tried to drown someone in camomile tea ? Or Quakers have tried to smother someone with love ?

However, as I write, Boko Haram is butchering people along the Nigeria-Cameroun border, al Qa'ida terrorists have just blown up thirty people in Yemen, French terrorists, shouting "Allah Akbar", have just killed twelve journalists in Paris, and god knows what else today.

Do they have anything in common ? Yes, they all claim to be acting in the name of their god, Allah.

Were they ? i.e. acting in the name of Allah ? Could they cite the Koran perfectly to support their animal actions ? Can anybody cite the Koran in support, no matter what they do ?

If so, I'll happily stay an atheist.

Equal treatment of all ? Yes, yes, yes ! yes, indeed - if ANYBODY commits terrorist acts, we have the right to call it out. If people don't then we don't. Equal treatment for equal actions.

So if people you support commit terrorist acts, others can condemn it. Please no more mealy-mouthed bullsh!t designed tov shut people up.

And as for that little fascist Junaid's crap about 'freedom of action' - NO. There is no such thing - freedom of speech, for you, for me, for SPQR and Luciferase and Constance and everybody else on OLO - but there is no legitimacy for any fascist rubbish about 'freedom of action': Hitler would have been proud.

[TBC]

[continued]

As long as believers in any particular god, or block of wood, or fish, or elephant or whatever, are prepared to live in peace with other people, non-believers in their particular brand of rubbish, then we can get along. You can believe yours, I'll believe mine. No need for violence, is there ? If you don't try to convert me, I won't try to convert you :)

But where some adherents of a particular religion do actually rely on terrorism and violence, then their fellow-believers have the task of confronting them and extirpating their influence.

" ..... Nor can one finish hatred by fomenting hatred."

And the first step in that process of reconciliation is to criticise the 'hatred' and murder carried out in one's name, and purge it from one's community: otherwise other people are entitled to believe that you are phony, that you are merely practising teqqiya.

But I congratulate you for suggesting that " ..... On the question of introspection in Islam. I personally feel there is dire need of this. Growth in Islamic thinking has been static since centuries. "

Again as an atheist, I respectfully suggest that ALL religious groups (as well as atheists) are woefully inadequate in their willingness to critically assess their own principles, in the light of the modern world, of universalism and globalisation, of modern science and its amazing advances, of the rapid development (in historical time) of human rights, of slaves, women, children and immigrants.

But I must say that, even as an atheist, I am very impressed by the verse in the Koran, 5.33, as well as the Christian story of the Good Samaritan: to recognise that ALL people, people other than our fellow-believers, have as much rights as we do, as much right to life, comfort and safety.

Put those principles into practice and we can all start to believe that, for the first time in 1400 years, Islam is a religion of peace.

Joe

Luciferase,

On your question Re Quran (5:32):

<<NC, based on the many interpretations given at that reference, isn't it quite probable that kactuz has it right?>>

And Kactuz 8 Jan, on the same reference.

<<Actually Allah is a plagiarist because that quote is from the Jewish Talmud.>>

Even an occasional reader of Quran knows that Quran does not consider its message to humanity to be a new one. Quran, according to itself, is a continuation of the message given to humanity through Abraham, Moses, Jesus and many others. It calls itself a ‘Reminder’ of what humans were told before, through so many scrolls of the past.

One of many examples: Quran (87: 17-19)

“Although the Hereafter is better and more lasting. Lo! This is in the former scrolls. The Books of Abraham and Moses.” Pickthall

By the way, the “many interpretations” you refer to, are independent translations who will not, understandably use the same words.

Your questions on religion apart, but kactuz’s position is different. He sees it as plagiarism. In every sentence he writes, he shows the ignorance that completely surrounds him.

I have shown him the origin of his hatred against Muhammad through well researched work of Encyclopaedia Britannica (my post of 31 Dec), an example of Arnoud Van Doorn (my post of 28 Dec) who confessed his misconception of Muhammad with a famous statement “I am Sorry, O Prophet” and a catalogue of present-day mainstream references clearing Muhammad and Islam of all medieval blemish that kactuz still holds so close to his heart.

But apparently his hatred for Muhammad has totally consumed his sanity, like few other posters in this thread. He sees in Quran and history what he wants to see and NOTHING ELSE.

For independent minds, an apparently Atheist (?) Karen Armstrong, is one of so many upright minds of this age that I can recommend for her take on history and religion. Her books on Islam and Muhammad will have good information for a western. Her book “The Battle for God, Fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam” is another superbly researched work