yvonne, " instead say that real men would never injure a woman"

But real men are fallable human beings, the vast majority will not initiate violence and most will not hit back for a long time even if subject to violence from a woman. All other things being equal I'll support the statement but all to often its a cop out for bullies and I don't support it as a way of attacking men who have not coped well with a bully who initates violence against them.

One of the aspects of this that is frustating is the determination of some women to demand men make those kind of statements but fail over and over again to apply the same standards to women who hide behind their gender to initiate violence believing themselves safe from receiving in kind. To apply the same standards women who will use gendered stereotupes and well meaning laws to destoy an ex. To apply the same standards to women who aras where they may have advantage over men in brutal ways.

Women do not directly kill as many male intimate (or former) partners as men kill but have you ever considered the role female bullying may play in the vastly higher rates of male suicide and other factors which effect men far more than women. At a guess you have probably treated males who have been injured by female intimate partners, the social stigma around it is such that few men can admit to that without fear of massive consequences to themselves.

Both genders have their bullies and thugs, the focus on the exteme end of direct violence whilst ignoring other ways of hurting people, the use of statistics based around assumptions about power in the home and a range of other tactics of the gender warriors just perpetuate the problems. The focus needs to come off gender and onto reducing the pressures that add to violence in all its forms and the difficulties people have effectively escaping from a bully.

R0bert

RObert "At a guess you have probably treated males who have been injured by female intimate partners, the social stigma around it is such that few men can admit to that without fear of massive consequences to themselves."

If they are supposedly too embarrassed to say that their partner bashed them, then how on earth would you or the other boys know about the rate of incidents?

The fact remains that I and all other nurses and medical staff HAVE actually seen and treated many bashed women, both inside hospitals and in their own homes.
I am damn sure they didn't lie about who did it.

I have seen their loving partners come in and visit (watch?) them back in the days when the police couldn't charge them without the woman's say so, and they almost never had a mark on them!
I hated those smarmy men with a passion.
I could tell you a multitude of awful stories, but I can't legally.

I realise there are some very violent women out there, and I know they can goad their men to violence just the same as any man, but severe (any!) injuries or death is not a suitable 'punishment' for any amount of 'lip'.

A dead woman, killed by her intimate partner, should cause at least as much angst in our society as a young man who is killed by a one punch murder.......but it doesn't, does it?

Suseonline, "A dead woman, killed by her intimate partner, should cause at least as much angst in our society as a young man who is killed by a one punch murder.......but it doesn't, does it?"

Horses' apples.

That is some ritual you have going, where you continually surface to repeat the same old stuff, usually false dilemmas, to wind up RObert and others. They always rise to the occasion to repeat what they have said before. Then at some stage you turn around to again say you are unconvinced so 'pppffffftttt' rhubarb to them.

Feminists need DV (rape culture too) because there are heaps of jobs, careers and thousands of professional consultancy hours in it, sucking millions out of the bucket of taxpayers' dollars every year. Middle class feminists have had a jolly good run out of it, as have the professionals and bureaucrats in the other victim industries, but young taxpayers cannot afford to pay for it.

Not now that young workers have the burden of an aging population,

and

they are stumping up for the infrastructure and Centrelink benefits for the continuing over-supply of migrants

and

they do not have the benefit and predictability of permanent, full-time jobs for life (as enjoyed by those educated, middle class feminists for instance)

and

younger workers are being required to provide for their own old age.

I love how woman feel they can determine who a 'real man' is. This goes along with the belittling 'boys' jibe. It often comes from people who work in the female dominated victim industries. If women don't have some men around to settle them down, this sort of snarkiness often raises its ugly head.

Maybe we should give Suzie and the other 'girls' some advice?

How about:
- real women don't regret sex after the fact and then make up rape claims
- real women have every law in the world to protect them against DV so real women don't stay in abusive relationships and then blame the man
- real women don't make children suffer for their own hurt by poisoning their relationships with their fathers
- real women put the well being of their children first

We will never convince the likes the Susie and co. to treat men as human beings with the same rights as women. The fact is they are female chauvinists.

I at least take solice in Bill Shorten's suffering. After thousands and thousands of men have suffered false accusations (especially in custody disputes) due to laws watered down by gutless men like him, it was just so nice to see the chickens come home to roost.

Susie, you might have worked in hospitals but have you worked on the streets where 95% of homeless people are men? Or in morgues where 70-80% of suicides victims are men? Or the single men's hostels where men have lost everything to the ex? Or in drug and alcohol rehabilitation where the vast majority are men, many of whom lost everything after a relationship breakdown?

You say you know there is a lot of domestic violence because you work in a hospital. What next? We'll have barmen telling us there are lots of drunks, or highway patrol officers telling us there is a lot of speeding.

Maybe if we just started with:
-real women take responsibility for their own actions, we might be able to get somewhere.

"If they are supposedly too embarrassed to say that their partner bashed them, then how on earth would you or the other boys know about the rate of incidents?"

Not just embarrassed, fear that if they try and address it in any way it will be turned back on them and result in massive harm in all areas of their lives. We have been over and over how we would know, looking at the rsearch that actually asks both genders about their experience of giving and receiving violence.

Also a bit of other men being more likely to talk about their own experiences from a violent spouse with men who are willing to hear it than they might be generally but that aspect is prettty subjective as is the experience of nurses with strong views on gender violence. You also probably don't get to find out how many times some of those women you treat hit their partner before he retailiated.

As I keep pointing out and you have acknowledged previously its not a nice simple divide of good gender, bad gender. Give either side open slather at an aspect of power over the other and some will abuse it.

I detest the way these threads get so polarised and combative and don't do well with responding in that space. I'd like to see all non consentual violence and abuse stopped, regardless of the gender of the perpetator or the tools used.

I'm strongly of the view that trying to make DV about men by feminists (and some others) is a big part of the failure to get the rates down more than we have. Core issues are not being addressed, sometimes contributing factors are made worse for the sake of political agendas.

R0bert

Thanks Dane, that's fascoinating:

"Susie, you might have worked in hospitals but have you worked on the streets where 95% of homeless people are men? Or in morgues where 70-80% of suicides victims are men? Or the single men's hostels where men have lost everything to the ex? Or in drug and alcohol rehabilitation where the vast majority are men, many of whom lost everything after a relationship breakdown?"

Yeah, we don't hear about the women who have forced men out of their houses, or women who have driven men to suicide, or women who have forced drugs on their menfolk, and even forced alcohol on their menfolk - I can hardly believe it, it's so cruel !

And why don't we ever hear about this ?!

Possibly because it doesn't happen.

If you assert, you prove. An assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Joe