Imanutter:

I really have no desire to make this exchange any more personal. Personal jibes could be fun sometimes, but let’s keep personal details to a minimum.

Just a few final comments about your last post.

I'm not saying we should ignore the words and wisdom of the Founding Fathers of the US, or any other reasonable intellectuals for that matter. What I am saying is that western countries act according to their interests, not blindly following some lofty philosophies or your favourite biblical stories.

Contrary to what you believe, I don't support everything Israel does. In the case of the Gaza conflict however I do believe justice is mostly on their side.

“You support a government inflexibly based in a dark age set of rules…In such you are completely at odds with all ideas in which western liberal democracies are based”

Let’s look at this dark set of rules in Israel:

- freedom of speech and media
- free and fair elections
- equal rights for women
- equal rights for non-Jewish Israelis
- freedom of religion
- freedom of language and culture
- equal rights for sexual minorities

While it's not perfect, overall the above set of rules is generally complied with in Israel, making in far more similar to the values of a western society than Hamas. None of these rules are respected by Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Not one.

“You are thence not one of us”

No, I am most definitely not one of you, and this is obvious. If I had your God on my side I would thank him for it.

To clarify one more thing – you seem to believe that I have an intense dislike of the US. I thought I clarified in my last post that this is definitely not the case.

This is my 4th post for today so I will probably not be able to respond again anytime soon. I'm not sure anything else can be added to this discussion, and in any case I like having my Sundays free of any political discussions. Will you miss me?

Very good posts, AVW, you are a real pleasure to read.

Steelredux seems to be overcome with the idealism of the founding fathers of the USA. It does not occur to him that those people who mouthed the high ideals about "all men are born free and equal" were slave owners. Whatever ideals they claimed to profess were soon sublimated to self interest. Winston Churchill noted that every revolutionary society begins with the highest ideals but always ends in corruption.

If the founding fathers of the USA were right about everything, I wonder what Steelie and julianutter think about the "right to bear arms?"

Steelredux and Iamajulianutter both appear to be idealists who put ideals over practical reality. They both think that reality must fit the ideal which they believe is the answer to everything. Please note how they always keep coming back to the argument that somebody has made some human right, or the UN says this or that, or some philosopher has said something, so this is how everything must be.

Such a position is indicative of a person who is an idealist and who thinks that altruism always takes precedence over self interest. It goes a long way in explain why so many educated Australians who hold high ideals always oppose the interests of their own people.

Anyway, that is my take on the matter. Please do not reply as I can see you have your hands full deprogramming our two Manchurian candidates. These two have trouble thinking for themselves and they parrot the ideals of others then try to make reality fit the ideal with a lot of pushing and shoving of the facts.

AVW,

I echo Legos comment -- good post.

Having just come away from a debate with Palestinian advocates on another thread. I can well relate to this point of yours:<<None of these rules are respected by Hamas in the Gaza Strip. Not one>>.

I am not a Jew or a Zionist, but I can well understand why any sort of fair outcome would be hard to negotiate with the persons like those who claimed to represent the Palestinian on that thread.

My oh my - the comments condemning Israel's inherent right of self defence to end Hamas terrorists indiscriminately targeting Israeli population centers is truly amazing.

# diver dan
Will Syrians, Lebanese and Ukrainians living anywhere on the globe live a much more insecure existence as their native countries seek to defend themselves?

#Loudmouth
The two -state solution creating three states in former Palestine is dead. The one- state solution is dead in the water. The only possibility is direct negotiations between Isreal, Jordan and Egypt to allocate sovereignty of the West Bank and Gaza between them.

#Rhosty
You hit the nail on the head. Fresh elections for the first time in eight years need to be held to give Gazan and West Bank Arabs a voice in their future.

#markjohnconley
What came first - the Israeli chicken that unilaterally disengaged from Gaza in 2005 or the Hamas Egg that took control of Gaza in 2007 and started its campaign of terror against Israel's civilian population?

#Albie Manton
Seems you posted to wrong article.

#plantaganet
The press have a new name -Press- titutes. They sell themselves for a story fed to them by Hamas propagandists.

#Suseonline
Have you posted anywhere to express your revulsion at the deaths of 180000 people in Syria or the slaughter currently being carried out by the Islamic State?

More to follow when I have the time ....

Hi Joe

Seems I'd recommend the reading of Siege red Samson to all the protagonists in all wars.

He despised war and the havoc they wreck.

Great read.
Truly a great western poet.

Nutter,

You mean Siegfried Sassoon ?