Johnathan J Ariel,

"How many are killed on what side does not an argument make."

Oh yes it does, particularly when the debate concerns (1) just conduct in a war or, indeed, whether a war is just. You're begging the question, historians don't all agree on whether or not the destruction of Dresden or the use of nuclear weapons against Japan was morally or strategically defensible.

Suseonline has a valid argument.

As to the Zionist war against the Palestinians, it has no ethical justification, therefore it's an unjust war.

leggo, see Irgun and Lehi (Stern gang) ......

Post limits.

Cont..

Don't you think calling for Palestinians to give away their right to defend themselves is hypocritical in the extreme. Apparently we are asked to accept that Israel's right to defend itself allows it to get away with war crimes. If Hamas disarmed how are they going to protect themselves the next time Israel's blood lust is stirred again by Likud? Are they to watch Palestinians shot in the streets, hundreds kidnapped, beaten, tortured, their houses and businesses destroyed, all without lifting a finger?

Speaking of Likud here is their Charter, tell me how it differs from Hamas in denying another peoples their right to nationhood?

a. “The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel.”

b. “Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem”

c. “The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.”

d. “The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel.

Re your reply to the first part of my post.

Either you were fully appraised of the report yet chose to stretch its limited determination on the naval blockade into a judgement about the legality of the entire blockade thus deserving of the label 'conniving' or you were ignorant of the content of the report to such a degree that you and quoted it blindly. Given your familiarity with aspects I was inclined to go with the former but assume the following was an admission;

“The Palmer inquiry made no determination as to the legality of the restrictions on land crossings between Gaza and Israel. Bringing up this issue is therefore irrelevant and adds nothing to this discussion.”

If that is the case I withdraw the 'conniving' label.

Ima:

I haven’t read your poetry, I prefer to face reality rather than live in fantasy, such as "The west is based in the philosophies of forgiveness and peace". It's time to face facts: international relations are not dictated by any lofty notions of "forgiveness and peace". They never were, and never will be. Countries act according to their national interests based on their needs at the time. Was it peace and forgiveness that drove the Americans into Korea and Vietnam? Or the British into the Falklands, French into Vietnam and Algeria, French and British into Suez (the list goes on and on)? Or is it possible that they simply took action based on their interests?

We in the real west, rather than some imaginary western society in a faraway parallel universe, act pragmatically and operate according to the needs of our society. You blokes just keep your head in the clouds dreaming about a fictional world order based on some utopia described in one version of the bible. How can anyone be expected to have a logical argument with a fantasy?

My assessment regarding your reading material and how irrelevant it was to our conversation was a valid point and not a personal jibe. It was an honest opinion based on your comments. I only raised it following your attempt at attacking the scope of my reading material:

"...fortunately my reading unlike yours appears to be broader in scope than the daily propaganda sheets and talking points of the Israel propaganda factory"

Posted by imajulianutter, Thursday, 31 July 2014 5:31:49 AM

Is this the real hypocrisy?

I didn't accuse you of being "a conniving young fellow" or "rather naughty". Can you see the difference? Coming from someone who accuses people of being "genocidal liars" for daring to confront his theories as you have, without providing a shred of evidence to back his accusation, don't you think it's a little rich for you to consider my comments a personal jibe? In any case, I'm sure SR can look after himself and has no need for you to protect his interests.

Hey V dub

My reading list you find irrelevant and mired in fantasy is a reading list promulgated by the greatest Western minds as the history of western philosophy.
Have a perusal of Bertrand Russell and the efforts of Jacques Barzun.

Nothing I have said would find them disagreeing with me.

I could imagine both scathing in their criticizm of you at your disavowing the results of our enshrined western traditions and your attempt to trash them in favor of the traditions of some dark age religious dominated mid eastern culture.

Btw enshrined in the Israeli constitution is that the laws of Israel are to be based in the ancient Hebrew bible. Is that a realist position given that those traditions have resulted in ejection from Egypt, ejection from Palestine by the Romans, progroms in Russia and other east European lands, genocide in Germany, and rocket attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas.

Have a quick check of George Washington's farewell address. Pay particular attention to his remarks about foreign relations. It is quite poignant and reflection will show how a great philosophy is being under mind by influence peddling.

Over time our great western traditions will correct from the current deviate practices and re align with our nobler traditions.

Jez that western hippie embodied in our western traditions must really get up your nose.

Reckon you suggest the emperors might try to crucify our western hippie?

Do you think that might work eh?

You really have betrayed your loathing of the west in your current propaganda effort.

Name one Hebrew poet for me please. I don't know of any. I have read poets from most cultures.
Why do you disdain people who value poetry. It is a multi culture value. Often used for communication of the expression of philosophical thought.

Nutter,

Heine. Sassoon. Pasternak. Philo. Mandelstam. Ginsberg.

I'm not into poetry, but that's a start for you ......

Joe