And Leonard Cohen, of course :)

Imanutter:

You really need to understand the difference between philosophy and pragmatism, between fantasy and reality. So far you do not seem to grasp the distinction. Philosophy and poetry, regardless of how grand and lofty it can be, is different to the actual behaviour of nations. I am presenting you with facts: behaviour of western nations over the past forever has been dictated by practical requirements, and you bring in philosophy and poetry. How much more detached can you be from reality?

"...your attempt to trash them in favor of the traditions of some dark age religious dominated mid eastern culture..."

Can you please point out where I favoured the traditions of some dark age religious dominated mid eastern culture? Is this another fantasy?

"...enshrined in the Israeli constitution is that the laws of Israel are to be based in the ancient Hebrew bible. Is that a realist position given that those traditions have resulted in...rocket attacks by Hezbollah and Hamas"

The laws of Israel are indeed based on the ancient Hebrew bible, just as the laws of all western nations are. In case you are not aware of it, the Ten Commandments, most of which are enshrined in laws today throughout the West, came from there. That ancient Hebrew bible that you seem to be in such contempt of is actually an integral part of Christianity and Islam as well. Although it makes no difference to me what bible you choose follow, your God might not be so forgiving for dismissing such a large part of his text. As for the rocket attacks, Hamas and Hezbollah are simply adhering to their own part of the bible (the part calling for the annihilation of Jews), not because Israeli law happens to have adopted the Ten Commandments.

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It is pointless to bring up George Washington’s farewell address. Once again, you need to recognise the difference between rhetoric and pragmatism.

"Over time our great western traditions will correct from the current deviate practices and re align with our nobler traditions"

Maybe, if they survive that long. But they haven't yet, and this is the first time you are acknowledging it. Maybe there is hope for you yet.

"You really have betrayed your loathing of the west in your current propaganda effort"

My loathing of the west? When did I give you that impression? I suppose if you process my posts through your fairytale filters you might reach that conclusion. In reality I wouldn't live anywhere else. I consider the pragmatic approach taken by western nations as an asset, not a drawback. The west would have ceased to exist long ago if it blindly followed the nonsense you are advocating.

As for Hebrew poets, I have already indicated to you that poetry does not appeal to me, but if you're really interested I'm sure Google and Wikipedia can assist you in your quest.

Contrary to your claim, I have no issue with people who value poetry. The problem arises when some people are unable to distinguish between poetry and reality.

Thanks Joe. I'll read them all with interest.

Out of interest do you know how many reside or resided outside Europe or The US. Yes it is significant as those who didn't a re likely to be unaffected by western traditions and in essence likely to portray a purer community philosophical sense.
Thanks again. I'll be reading much this weekend.

Cheers Joe.

It's interesting to visit a Singer site now and again and see how many people are still dancing to his mischievous, divise tune which seeks to confuse the issues so that Israel, with U.S. help, can continue its imperial quest to establish Greater Israel!

As I read through the comments, I know I've read them all before, many times. Nothing changes, nothing is achieved, just the same old arguments ad nauseum!

Singer should've been choked off ages ago. Why feed a poisonous vine?

Hey V dub
Mate I am going to relish the opportunity you have given me.

I am writing it now and is to be along these lines.

Philosophy does not disparage pragmatism nor does it exclude it's use. Philosophy emerges from the community through the arts.

Pragmatism disparages and excludes philosophy. Pragmatism only is imposed from the top onto the community.

I would like to know your background before I present my argument as I don't want to cause offense. Education, ethnicity, gender, age etc ... just in case.
I'm an Anglo naturalised Australian, 60, male with a girlfriend, with no formal qualifications, retired, writer and poet. I live on my yacht.
I believe in no God but like the ancient Egyptians I believe in the ideas of Thoth. I also put great store in the teachings of the son of God. Particularly The Sermon on the Mount.

It is interesting you think we should all ignore the words and wisdom of the founding fathers of the greatest liberal democracy the world has ever seen.
Their wisdom in all it's diversity still applies today, even if it is being enslaved by its total support to an outside dark age influence. That is the message of Washington. Those elements are starting to reassert in the Capital of The US. Washington.
You'd fear that.

You say you don't preach the Israeli propaganda.
Probably you don't but all you say is always in alignment or supportive of everything Israel. In that you allow us to judge you on that support. You support a government inflexibly based in a dark age set of rules which now are dominated by the vengeance and violence aspects of those rules.
In such you are completely at odds with all ideas in which western liberal democracies are based.

You are thence not one of us.