Dear Avw,

It is an assault on our intelligence if you are putting the proposition that Israel has no control over the Gaza border with Egypt. Why on earth do the Gazan people have to drag virtually all their supplies through hundreds of tunnels hundreds of metres long if this were true? Sure during the Morsi rule of around a years there were some lifting of the restrictions on people, especially those on pilgrimage, but by and large the Israeli blockade on goods was honoured in principle by the Egyptians. You might argue that there was a blind eye turned toward the tunnel operations, especially by bribed locals, but you can't say the overt restrictions on food, medicine, seeds, fertilisers, building materials, fuel, cars, machinery etc would not have been in place without the insistence from Israel.

This next statement from you I will put down to ignorance;

“You bring the example of “compliant Fatah” in the West Bank and the presence of settlements there. One major flaw in your argument is that Fatah was also controlling Gaza when Israel withdrew in 2005, pulling all Israeli settlements out of the territory. Hamas and its arsenal of terror weapons was not entrenched in Gaza then, therefore to imply that their violence and non-compliance today caused the end of settlements in Gaza back then is a gross distortion of facts. If anything, it is the withdrawal that caused the violence, not the other way around.”

Mantras and platitudes can not replace the facts.

This is a map of Gaza prior to the Israeli pull out in 2005. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/middle_east_enl_1118332206/html/1.stm

It is clear to see how it was being carved up by Israeli settlements and access corridors. Without resistance this illegal occupation would have continued to spread and Gaza would have resembled the West Bank today. The first mortar was fired at a settlement in January 2001. After that a steady barrage was maintained, mostly by non-PA elements despite heavy reprisals by the IDF. The vast majority of mortars were directed at the occupier's settlements within Gaza.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001

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It wasn't until July that a mortar shell was fired in the West Bank into an Israeli settlement and such attacks were spasmodic and very rare.

The Gaza attacks included rockets only after October 2001.

2002 - 17 rockets and 455 mortar shells

2003 - At least 123 rockets and 514 mortars

2004 - 882 mortar shells and 276 Qassam rockets

2005 - 574 mortar shells and 286 Qassam rockets in the early part of the year.

Wikipedia

Israel withdrew its settlements and forces in September. It took 5 years from start to finish and a lot of Palestinian lives but the armed resistance by the Gazan population saw an end to the occupation of the Gaza Strip. Clearly the Qassam rockets played a part in defending Gaza from direct occupation and they continue to defend it from future encroachment by Israeli settlers.

This sir is history, you are entitled to present a different narrative but please do me the courtesy of attempting to do so based on the facts.

For those living in the West Bank to have any chance of removing the occupiers from their land can you give me any other viable option with a realistic chance of success other than using mortars and rockets? The PA has acted like the Vichy government did in France and where has it got them? Is it really such a surprise that Hamas would have the support it has within Gaza? They are standing and fighting against the occupation and I have no doubt that their insistence that any current cease fire includes an easing of the Israeli blockade will succeed.

Next you wrote;

“Not one shelter was built for Palestinian citizens, as much of the available construction material was instead diverted into the construction of many kilometres of concrete tunnels designed to spread terror. Tunnels, mortars, rockets – all designed to hit civilians.”

No, most of the construction material was used to create buildings for Gazans to live in, to build hospitals and schools that had been destroyed during Operation Cast Lead.

http://vimeo.com/101819495

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Indeed what you're saying is that Hamas should have known that Israel would be back to inflict the civilian population with death and destruction so should have put all this material into bomb shelters.

To my question.

For the record I think both actions are reprehensible but let us break this down a little. Military training to kill Palestinians is compulsory in Israel and most adults of fighting age are either on active service or able to be called up as reservists. In an Israeli night club the vast proportion of those in attendance would be of military age and trained therefore a bomb placed in this environment would have a good chance of targeting mainly service personnel.

Compare that to this report from Bt'Selem;

“Airstrikes on homes formed a major part of the policy implemented by the Israeli military from the start of this bout of fighting in Gaza. The scope of these airstrikes as well as the length of time that they persisted indicate that they were likely authorized by senior military and political officials, and were also granted advance sanction by the Military Advocate General Corps and the Ministry of Justice.”

“As part of that policy, homes were bombed every day, more and more civilians were killed and entire families were obliterated. Even compared to previous bouts of fighting in Gaza, the number and frequency of incidents this time around was unusually high, with many people killed each time, mostly civilians who did not take part in the hostilities. For instance, on 20 July 2014 an airstrike on a building in Bani Suheila – a neighborhood northeast of Khan Yunis – killed 26 people from the Abu Jame' family, including 19 minors and five women; the bombing of a residential buildings on 26 July 2014 killed 20 members of the a-Najar family, including 12 minors, six women, and a 60-year-old man; an airstrike on an apartment building in Khan Yunis on 29 July 2014 killed 35 people from four families – including 18 minors and eight women.”
http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20140811_a_death_foretold

Which is the least legitimate action?

Joe, yes Sassoon, bloody auto text on my phone changes everything.

Jo you are one of us. We have different opinions. I and you subscribe to the view we should respect each other.

That is the philosophy that underpins our interaction and our community.

v dub on the other hand trashes the whole relevance and concept of philosophy.

Then does he then share our values?

The answer, if he is unable to recognise the links between our philosophical evolving and our community behaviours, is no.

Why not?

That answer lies in the fact both you and I are prepared to be open about ourselves. Both you and I belong to a society that has evolved over time.

Take the bible for instance. Over time we have had at least 5 bibles. Each changed to meet evolving circumstances and community beliefs. eg the position of women in community. At one time our bible told us they were the chattels of men. Throughout each re write of our bible and beliefs there have been changes to reflect the changing place of women in society. Our development of views on these came from the community and our bible changed to accommodate these changes. The bible was last re written by the Catholic Church in the 1960's.

The Islamic Quran and the Jewish Bible have never evolved and today women in both religions cannot even preach in their temples or mosques. Essentially they are books of rules, with conflicting rules. There is no philosophical process allowing change. They are stuck in the practises of the past and will go on repeating the behaviours.

In the west philosophy allows us to evolve. Our great minds say all philosophy comes from the community and we change. In the mid east there is no philosophy only rules handed down by gods and they cannot change the rules. Sadly both religions have rules for peace and violence and it very much depends on the leadership whether peace or violence reign.

Clear?

That is why v dub isn't one of us. All the expression of his attitudes show that.

hey v dub

there you go again.

how about

the 50 year occupation.
the land stealing.
the detentions.
the repression.
the collective punishments.
the refusal to apply the Geneva Conventions.
the inclusion of only the Jewish book as a basis of law.
the conscription of Jews only.
the refusal to allow the return of refugees.
These are fundamentally not the ways of Western Liberal Democracies.

We have evolved away from these things. We are able to do that because we want to.

Israel cannot evolve because, like it's enemies, it is run by a bunch of terrorists, who have preference for the violence contained in their ancient books of rules.

The west is successful, it lives in peace and is self-reliant. We believe the people decide the nature of the community. The community and our beliefs evolve through the discussion of ideas, usually through our arts and particularly those with a community voice and discussion of philosophy. We are not dictated to by an ancient book of rules or stifled by the dictates of any particular religion.

You have shown in your comments here you loathe the activities which mark us as western. So why wouldn't it be natural for us to deem you loathe the US. The US is the practice and embodiment of our beliefs. It practises our community's underlying philosophy.

You are not one of us.

Dear SR:

Other than the ability to smuggle weapons of terror, one of the main reasons for the tunnels is the income it provides Hamas with:

“…according to an investigative report published in the pan-Arab newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat, there are at least 600 millionaires living in the Gaza Strip…The Palestinian millionaires…have made their wealth thanks to the hundreds of underground tunnels along the border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt…Palestinians estimate that 25% of the Hamas government's budget comes from taxes imposed on the owners of the underground tunnels”

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3308/gaza-millionaires

It’s in the interest of Hamas to keep the tunnel business flourishing.

Any restrictions on the transfer of goods between Egypt and Gaza are controlled by Egypt, not by Israel. The prevailing government in Egypt decides when and what restrictions to apply, as per your admission “…during the Morsi rule of around a years there were some lifting of the restrictions…”. Are you saying that Israel lost its absolute control over the crossing for the duration of the Morsi regime and then somehow gained it back? Isn’t it far more reasonable to conclude that the changing government in Egypt decided on what controls to apply? Egypt is tightening control not because of some imaginary dictate from Israel, but because of concerns about terrorism threatening its own security, as was evident by the killing of Egyptian border guards by terrorists.

The violence you quote emanating from the Gaza Strip in 2001 was part of the second intifada and was not unique to Gaza. Many more violent incidents occurred in the West Bank. Your conclusion that somehow the violence in Gaza caused the evacuation but the violence in the West Bank did not is just selective silliness.

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