Dear david f,

>>I am delighted to see posts from you.<<

ditto

>> I didn’t say Beethoven, Einstein and Shakespeare were only seeking food.<<

I concede, that was a clumsy reaction to what you wrote, see below.

>>I think curiosity to gain the knowledge of how things work drove Einstein and Heisenberg not any desire to help mankind survive in the future. <<

Hunger and sex are two drives needed for the survival of the individual and species respectively. These drives we share with other species. Curiosity to understand the world around, in a way not directly related to satisfying the hunger or sex drive, is something of a new quality, referred to (not only by me or theists) as an “emergent property” of the (organic) system. Note that I wrote explicitly “One can but need not seek a theist interpretation of this.”

Where it all started is a different question, and you are right that these two self-preservation (individual and species) drives were a NECESSARY precondition to develop a curiosity about how the world (created or not) works. I only do not think it was SUFFICIENT.

Throughout their 135 million years dinosaurs did not develop any such curiosity that would have lead to an ability to divert the approaching meteorite, whereas our species - old hardly a couple of million years - is rapidly approaching that ability. [Actually, neither were non-Western civilizations “curious enough” to reach the Western level of scientific and technological sophistication and effectiveness, although they did, of course, make their contributions. We have been here before.]

It is not my invention that curiosity leading to highly sophisticated science and technology COULD BE explained as a self-preservation drive projected into the future, as one possibility to account for this emergent property which only our species developed. Of course, not at the level of individuals like Einstein or Heisenberg but on that of the whole species. It does not explain why Einstein and Heisenberg were exceptional individuals, but perhaps hint at why our species is exceptional (from among those lived so far on this planet).

(ctd)

(ctd)

>> I don’t think biological functioning deserves the adjective ‘mere’. I think it is wonderful, and I appeal to Occam’s Razor again to ask why we have to assume anything else. <<

Well, I certainly believe that my mind functions on a higher level than that of an animal, irrespective of how it evolved. It is not a question of downgrading the biological component of what makes a person human. I am referring again to that “emergent property” which apparently can exist only where consciousness “is run” by a biological system. It does not go against Occam's razor to assume that my computer, as sophisticated as it is, would not be much without the proper software running on it.

According to some definition/understanding, animals are also aware but they are not aware of their being aware, that is a property of consciousness alone.

>>Upon reflection we can consider existence as a concatenation of wonders. It is a wonder that anything is here at all,<<

I completely agree. This wonderment can be experienced on the background of both theist and atheist worldviews.

I agree that there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom, and that the Bible (and other sacred texts) are more about wisdom than knowledge, especially if knowledge is reduced to its natural-scientific dimensions. However, there is also knowledge of a text irrespective of how one sees its verisimilitude: my knowledge of the Bible, as limited as it is, is still much higher than that of the Koran, and your knowledge of the Bible is apparently higher than mine.

Banjo:

>>Mireille Mathieu (too bourgeois, conformist and stereotype to be authentic)<<

Perhaps this makes her so popular among “bourgeois, conformist and stereotype” people of my generation in Germany. I never heard of Barbara, probably because she was dead before I came to live here. I think also Roger Whittaker is more popular in Germany than in Britain.

.

Dear David,

.

“ That reminds me of a French short story. A women had four husbands who all died within six months of the marriage and a detective ... found out that the woman was a wonderful cook and a sexual genius. The men all died of natural causes ... On October 31 I will be 88 and at least hope to eat some good pastry.”

.

My wife and I will probably have pumpkin soup that day, David, and we’ll put a candle in the empty pumpkin to make its eyes glow. Then we’ll crack open a bottle of our best red wine and raise a toast to you and yours, united - on what we hope will be a gentle autumn evening - with the spirit of your ancestors.

By the way, there could be some truth in that French story. I have heard it said many years ago, that the French dig their graves with their forks. Others, of course, may well dig them with something else.

It’s reassuring to see that you know the meaning of wisdom.

.

“ If you get the radio stream from WMUA, the University of Amherst’s station, on your computer at 12pm on Thursday you will hear Melanie, their younger daughter, and her 2&1/2 hour radio program, Cafè Brazil.”

.

I tuned in to Café Brazil right on the dot of 12pm, enjoyed the music and had the pleasure of hearing Melanie say a few words between sessions. I particularly enjoyed the Fado Tropical of Chico Buarque which Melanie accepted to play for a listener (because Chico was Brazilian and not Portuguese). I found the song on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiN5AqGaSM8

.

I’ll continue to do the disc jockey myself here for a while and post a few more popular French songs which may not have passed the language barrier...

.

George,

Roger Whittaker, that’s a name which brings back fond memories – particularly “I don’t believe in if anymore” – going back some 30 years or so. I haven’t heard of him since.

It should please David:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Lx8c3-djc8&feature=endscreen

.

david..recalled..his fathers..talking/with priest*
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10496&page=0#179267]

[funny..my dad..did the/same thing..[but..i recall a conversation..between the..officer..and a priest..somewhere near here[skip..to/next..post]

<<..“The Stranger:..‘We can’t/help it...We seem..driven..by some strange force...Compelled...,to work..and work without/ceasing..There’s no rest...

A..strange,..mad instinct..seems to drive..[the dead]..on...
When..I was..on earth..I thought/of nothing..but my work.I worked..hard..damned hard..day after day,..and this is..my reward.>>

more..f the same..will/be..a given

<<>...On..and on..and on,..doing the same thing
over..and..over again,..without rest,..for ever..and ever..and ever.

<<..I can’t..make it out.’

“The Officer...<<..‘I suppose..you thought..of nothing but..your material interests when on..earth,..?....and so..in Hell*..you still..go on..in the same way.’?

“The Stranger...‘Hell!
<<.there’s.;.no such place,..or Heaven either.’

“The Officer...‘Where are..you.now,..then?’
“The Stranger...‘I don’t know,..and don’t care....Why,..just..*look what a number..of churches..and parsons there are..here...[lol?]

<<..But I’ve no time..to stop..and talk..to fools like you...*I must get back..to my work,’..and he entered/the factory.

“I went..on..till I/came to..a large-square,
in/which were..o less than..three churches.

One..belonged to/the Church/of England,..another to/the Roman Catholics,..and a third to..one of the..Nonconformist bodies...I went into..the/Anglican_Church,..and I found..a service..in full swing.

The..parson..was preaching..rather a dry sermon.
He..harped on..two themes by..turn:

(1)..That people..had no business..to/go..to either..of/the other two churches,..and should..show more deference..to himself as the representative..of the National/Church;..

(2)..That they..should subscribe..more generously..to the church..and,.incidentally,..to its vicar,..and he glossed..these two themes over..by platitudes..about social/reform.and helping
the material..well-being of..their fellow-creatures,..especially those..whom..he designated as..the lower classes.

Somehow..this part..of/his theme..rang very hollow

“I noticed...the congregation..paid little heed..to/the sermon.
Some..were..whispering/scandal..to their next-door neighbors,..others,..mostly women,..were criticizing/the clothing
of..their neighbors.

Several/men..were talking business,..and in one corner..two men were
arguing violently,..so much so..that they interrupted..the preacher,..who glared..at them..angrily.

“I went out..and..visited..the other/two churches,
and..found..a similar performance..in each.

“We then..went on..and came..to the shopping/area.
Here..we found a..similar state of/affairs..to that/in the factories. People came..to buy,..but the money..they gave..for the goods..eventually..returned to them,..

while the goods..returned to the shops..
almost at once...as they..were forgotten..[comfort-shopping?]

“I asked..one shopkeeper..where he got..the things..he tried to sell..since..the factories..could not supply him.

He:..‘Oh,..they came here..with me.
They are..the things..which were..in my shop when..I died.

Here..they stick..till I’m sick and..tired of..seeing them.’

“The Officer:..‘Why don’t you..give up..keeping a shop?’
“He:..‘What a ridiculous idea!..What on earth..should I do..without my shop?..

context..continues..
maybe..next post..david..[its didnt..make the cut]

Why,..my/whole life..has been..centered..in\..selling things ever/since..I was a boy.’>>

its all..he knows

<<..He turned away..in/disgust,..and began to serve..a lady..who wanted to buy a new hat,..which returned to..the/shop..a few minutes after..she had taken it out.

“Then..I went to..the council chamber,..and found a crowd of men wrangling..on..endlessly..about..improving the town,..but..after listening for a long time,..I came to..the conclusion that,..though they might talk..for ever,..nothing would ever be done.

“I.passed..out of..the town..and came to..open fields.
I use.the word..to describe the place,..but it looked more..like a piece of..waste-ground covered..with..rubbish..

no..thats..not it..

“‘Please..do not..swear!’..he answered.
“‘I apologized,..and..then asked..him..what sort/of plays..were shown in/this..city.’

“‘All-sorts,..so..long as..they are/not..improper.
We..will/not permit..any..suggestion of..impropriety here.

Nothing vulgar..or immoral is permitted..All our plays..and music-halls..are conducted..on the best..principles.’>>of moralistic preaching

<<..“I...‘That’s..the first time..since I’ve been..in Hell..that I’ve heard people..object to..impropriety.’

“He looked..pained.
“‘I wish..you would not use..that word.
There is..no such place..as Hell,..and..certainly we/are not..in it.’

“‘Oh, Don’t talk nonsense'..I began.
‘All this realm..is Hell,,,so what’s the use of..pretending it isn’t...I’ve been long enough..in Hell to know that.’

“‘Stranger,’..he replied,..‘who are you,..
and..from where.do you come?’

“So..I told..him..briefly my history...As I went on..he slowly drew away..from me,..and at..length broke-in with..‘That’s enough,..thank you...Either you are..a liar or a villain...

I..know..perfectly well..I’m not in Hell.... suppose..I’m still on earth,..but..anyway I never..have..associated with/scoundrels,..and I am not..going to..begin now.

Good-day,..and let/me..give/you..a piece..of advice,..which I do..out of..the kindness..of my heart..I always was..a kindhearted/man —

Don’t tell..that story..to anyone else here,
or they..will have you..thrown..over the battlements,’..and he made off.

“I went..into the/theater...A musical-comedy..was being performed.
A poorer/show..I’ve..hardly ever seen...The music was/not..absolutely discordant,..as it is..in the other divisions/of Hell,..but..it was feeble stuff...The very worst/kind..of so-called popular music.

Plot?..there/was none,
and..the whole/show..was so banal..and trashy,..that I cleared/out..at the end..of/the..first scene...I noticed that/the audience..seemed as bored..as I was,..but..nevertheless they/stayed on.

“Next..I tried a music-hall..which advertised..outside
that its show..was..‘A most Refined/entertainment...Funny without being Vulgar.’

It..certainly..wasn’t funny,..and it..certainly-was,..to my thinking, intensely..vulgar..not indecent,..but..just vulgar...Low comedians..of
the worst type,..vapid songs,..silly aimless tricks..in short, absolute trash.

ok..here..it is

Gone West
page 157
Chapter XXXII
The..Sixth Division...A\Church..and/..its Vicar

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

few other posts..here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6042&page=0
other site..seems dead
http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15122#15122

Dear George,

There are some statements of yours that I would word differently.

<Well, I certainly believe that my mind functions on a higher level than that of an animal,>

‘Animal’ is used to describe a non-human mammal so your usage is correct. However, I avoid that usage and would write: “Well, I certainly believe that my mind functions on a higher level than that of a non-human animal.”

<According to some definition/understanding, animals are also aware but they are not aware of their being aware, that is a property of consciousness alone.>

I don’t know how one could determine that all non-human animals lack consciousness. I think some non-human animals I have known have consciousness, but I don’t know how to go about proving it. In the United States our cat used to have an occasional visitor – another cat. The two animals would walk together, hang out for a while and then the other cat would leave. Maybe our cat would visit the other one. I never found out where it lived. That does not mean consciousness, but it certainly seemed like friendship.

< It does not go against Occam's razor to assume that my computer, as sophisticated as it is, would not be much without the proper software running on it.>

The difference between software and hardware is an arbitrary one and a matter of cost. Hardware can be designed to do anything that software can do, but it means having circuitry dedicated to that use whereas the same circuitry can be used for different software. An example is floating decimal arithmetic. In the earliest computers that was done by software. When etched circuitry boards were developed all such operations were then done by hardware.

Our theist and non-theist views of world don’t seem greatly different.

Dear OUG,

I am amazed that you referred to a statement I made over three years ago. How did you happen to look back that far?