i replied davids post at the topic
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5975#170303

noted..banjo<<..From my perspective,..the existence of a god
is not a prerequisite for spirituality,holiness,..the sense of the sacred,./.EDITED..religiosity, etc...*Otherwise there would be none in the world today.>>

there wasnt any..at all
before mankind..'evolved'..it..defined it..mandated it
but of course..my opinion.,.is equally valid as yours

<<The fact..that some people do demonstrate..these qualities cannot, in my opinion,*..be attributed to the existence of a god.>>

cant agree

<<..Also,..just as light produces shadow,>>

now hang on there banjo
absence of light..[by blocking it..casts a shadow
the light cant be said to produce the shadow..as much as that blocking the light

<<the god concept..inevitably comes..with its corollary>>

corollery..meaning,,:
1..a logical proposition..that follows one allrready proved..[please sir where is your proof..or are you conceding..the god concept?]

2de..definition..:..a direct consequence..or result of*
[im.not seeing your point]

then..inevitably..with its corollary..<<as two sides of the same coin...<<...Impossible to have one without the other.>>

i agree

<<..From my perspective,
faith without god..is what we have today.
It’s a perspective worth meditating upon..as a source of inspiration for the best way forward>>..

best way forward?
for who?

for you..it may be the best way..for you

<<... beyond the god concept and its inevitable corollary.>>

inevitably..the true meaning
of corollary..needs clearing up..i feel..maybe via thesaurus

other options to..the word corollary
;..result/upshot/effect/repercussion/product/..knock on affect

anyhow glad we agree..to a point

Dear Banjo,

From my perspective there is too much faith and not enough doubt. It is more comfortable and easier to accept without examining what we are and what we grow up thinking. However, as far as I am concerned leaps of faith which spring from acceptance of what we cannot prove are markedly inferior to doubts which causes us to ask questions. IMHO doubt is a virtue, and faith is a vice.

From doubt arises knowledge. From faith may arise atrocity.

Dear Banjo,

>>From my perspective, the existence of a god is not a prerequisite for spirituality,<<

Perhaps rather ”belief in the existence of a god is not a prerequisite for …”, or did you mean “God is not necessarily the only explanation of …”? In both case, I agree. For instance, Buddhism and other forms of mysticism that are not directed towards the God or Godhead of Western religions are good examples of that. [Although folk versions even of Buddhism assume “the existence of … well they do not call them gods but … spirits”.]

For me - for my “life equation”, c.f. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5975#170286 - a God as modeled by Christianity is the best possible explanation of all that you mentioned as well as many other things, including contemporary philosophy of science and philosophy of religion. Obviously, for others - including you - this is not the case. However, if we still can communicate on a level that enhances our worldviews - as it seems we two can - that on its own is worth keeping up our occasional exchange of opinions.

>>From my perspective, faith without god is what we have today.<<

I think by “faith without god” you mean what is more commonly known as secular (or atheist) spirituality, c.f. my post above http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15257#265481. As for my (outsider's) view of spirituality without its roots in traditional religion, see my story about the three little pigs:(http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2909&page=0#66836).

Dear david f,

If you DEFINE faith as the negation, opposite, of doubt then you are right. Otherwise I cannot imagine a theist who would never have doubted anything - have you heard of the "Dark Night of the Soul" by Saint John of the Cross?. Neither an atheist who would doubt everything. Some things at some times and to some extent you doubt, some you don’t. It is not an absolute (unlike propositions of formal logic or pure mathematics that can be either proved or disproved … well, never mind Goedel).

Dear George,

Of course it is unlikely that anybody is a complete doubter, or anybody has complete faith. However, I still don't think faith is a virtue.

Dear David,

I just happened to discover that this old thread is still alive. I enjoyed skimming through the responses, but I would have lots of catching-up to do and no time in the next few days, so I just want to relate to the issue of faith:

No one with a mind has no faith.
There is no vacuum.
The question is only in what.

Do you have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow?
Do you have faith in your senses and in your mind?
Do you have faith in doubt?

One is not more rational than the others.

Faith in God is a powerful remedy against faith in the world and one's mind and senses.

Dear Banjo,

<<the existence of a god is not a prerequisite for spirituality, holiness, the sense of the sacred, piety, sanctity, devoutness, devotion, morality, goodness, generosity, altruism, self-sacrifice, religiosity, etc. Otherwise there would be none in the world today.

The fact that some people do demonstrate these qualities cannot, in my opinion, be attributed to the existence of a god.>>

Absolutely. But they can be attributed to God.

<<Also, just as light produces shadow, the god concept inevitably comes with its corollary as two sides of the same coin. Impossible to have one without the other.>>

Exactly, which is why God is not a concept and another proof why God does not exist.

<<From my perspective, faith without god is what we have today.>>

What you probably mean is faith without a concept of the existence of God - which is wonderful.

Dear George,

Thank you for great insights.